Milestone...first real date with a guy...

[Zenith]

Julie, congratulations! I'm so happy for you!

I'm sure you'll know when it is the right the to tell.

So. I've gotta ask. Who paid for dinner? Believe it or not, I'm dumbfounded by this. I'm in a relationship now and it's comfortable, we take turns. But, the days are long gone when it is taken for granted that a man should pay. Yet there must be some guys out there who would feel insulted should the girl offer to pay on the first date. So how did you navigate this? Was it awkward?

Hi Reine. This was simple. I didn't make it to the ATM and was running late. Actually most guys like to pay...makes it a date in their mind. But I'll step up if need be. And I do plan to treat him to a nice lunch soon.

Ashamed? Ridiculous! I tell it like it is, and have every right to. Nothing cruel in my evaluation of, and conclusions drawn from, the original post.

I'm really annoyed by the sanctimonious "you go, girl" attitude espoused by many here; in your heart and minds, you may be women, but biologically, you're not ... so accept reality.

Miss Rebecca, you are quite the hater here. You don't know everything thing about me and certainly don't know my biology. What if I was intersex? What if I was XXY? What if I had strong female features before transition? You show a lack of even basic understanding of a classic Harry Benjamin transsexual. Using one of my analogies, according to you all amputees should be denied lifelike limbs so they aren't running around "deceiving" people.

Yes I DID connect with him as a friend and maybe someday as a lover...

And saying that you have a right to tell it like you see it while telling another member to literally shut up is some serious hypocrisy...

Thanks to everyone for the support in trying to explain things, I was rather stunned at this unprovoked attack.

[erika130]

Julie, you go, Girl ! ()
It must be interesting to have come this far & look way back when you started, even on this site, & how far things might have seemed at the time. To me, it's hard to imagine you ever had doubts, since you really are woman. I'm so happy to hear that you get to be you on such an important level
enjoy girl!

[Areyan]

Dammit, RebeccaLynne - Zenith IS a woman. does she really need to spell out her life in trannyland for this guy? really, i understand the activism but it's not needed in this case. please try to respect some folks might like to live stealth and it's none of our business whether it's a wise choice or not.

i am personally very happy for you, Zenith. i hope it works out great and i wish you much luck with this man if you decide to tell him your story.

[Shelly Preston]

Rebecca
I guess if you not anatomically and biologically perfect then you will never be a woman judging by what you have said

Have you any idea how many women you just offended just because they cant have children.

Julie IS an attractive woman who has every right to go out and find the right partner for her

[Rianna Humble]

So you didn't tell him you're not what you appear to be?



So you've deceived him. And you feel you've "connected"? I beg to differ. Send him a text, e-mail, or call him. He deserves to know the truth before seeing you again. He showed you a good time; reciprocate honestly.

That is rich from a CD who doesn't believe he should tell a woman that he is a CD on the first date (see Rebecca's comments in this thread) and who hid his cross-dressing from his girlfriend for 6 months

There's a name for that.

[Michelle.M]

You've been surgically transformed into what "appears to be a woman". Yet you possess neither ovaries nor a uterus, making you unable to bear children.

So then, using this logic any woman who has had a hysterectomy is now a man and is deceiving anyone who thinks otherwise?

That you express your opinion articulately does not hide your ignorance, prejudice and hate. This merely puts your cissexism in a pretty package.

You say that you tell it like it is?

We do too. You are transphobic.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

That is rich from a CD who doesn't believe he should tell a woman that he is a CD on the first date (see Rebecca's comments in this thread) and who hid his cross-dressing from his girlfriend for 6 months

There's a name for that.

!!! LOL... sounds like a little self loathing on top of the transphobic hate..i know this feeling well, i was taught the same things as everybody else

anyway
it's a first date for crying out loud..

Rebecca you really do need to take a step back...

the only thing real about your comments is that it's a sad fact that our partners may care about our pasts...
but the problem is just that...the problem is how cisgendered people are socialized to feel about us..and the totally unneccessary and hurtful transphobia that is deeply ingrained in our culture...and it hurts us as transsexuals..that's the real part
there is absolutely nothing wrong with any person being true to themselves, trying to live their own best life and building relationships off that..that's hopefully what we all do..

..and yes we are piling on, you deserve it..

[Aprilrain]

Partially. You've been surgically transformed into what "appears to be a woman". Yet you possess neither ovaries nor a uterus, making you unable to bear children. So do you wait to tell him until he expresses the desire to raise a family?



I'm certainly not transphobic. I'm a realist. The point of telling is honesty. If he'd been to prison, it wouldn't preclude him from fathering children. So your point is irrelevant.



I'm sure it is. So what do you tell him when he tells you he wants children?



Nope.



In her outward appearance, and in her own mind; but not physically. She cannot bear children.



The sooner, the better. That's my point.



I disagree. Read my above responses as to my point of view. If you have a qualifying argument to the contrary, by all means elaborate on your position.

Otherwise, shut up.

Your statements aren't transphobic, I doubt that you suffer from an abnormal fear of transgendered people, instead I would argue that your statements are cis-sexist. You grant all of the "rights and privileges" assumed by females to natal women without reserve yet you make rather scathing remarks to Julie simple because you know she is TS.
Your arguments assume that a woman is a woman only if she can bear children, flawed logic which in and of its self is rather sexist. Though I doubt you meant to, you inadvertently excluded all natal woman who cannot or choose not to bear children from womanhood. Let's be real, we both know that that is NOT what you were implying. What you WERE implying is that trans-women are not real women and should be wearing scarlet letters, so to speak, so poor unsuspecting men won't be duped into a "gay" relationship by a "fake girl"
I don't know what your personal gender identity is, mine is female not male and not something in between. I have some physical challenges that I wish to overcome for my own personal satisfaction and quality of life but this doesn't change my gender

Wow! I just read the post that Rianna posted a link to. Rebecca your signature says "feminist in training" you, my dear, have a LOT of training left to do.
Now are my arguments "qualifying" enough or shall I "shut up" you can PM me if you like, bye now!

[PretzelGirl]

Back to the main subject, I am really happy for you Julie. Each step is only a matter of time and I am glad that this "first date" went so wonderfully for you. For anything that needs to be said, you will know when the time is right. I feel it is part of a relationship growing in that you get a feel for the right moments for everything that needs or is destined to happen. In the meantime, enjoy the development of a relationship.

Now if you should choose to leave our little group, it will be sad. You have always been a lovely lady and a completely caring and supportive person here. But the time comes for everyone to move on. If you do go, you will in no small way be missed.

[RebeccaLynne]

I take it from that statement that you consider any infdertile woman to only "appear to be a woman", and what about someone who has had to have a hysterectomy. Again by your definition, se is not a woman. Get real.

Then your take is wrong. As are your inferences regarding my position on the issue, which has to do only with honesty and openness.

The common cry of most of your fellow haters.

I think you need to get some professional help to flush this bigotry out of your system.

luckily it is not the bigots who get to decide this.

More name-calling. The last resort of those unable to construct a reasoned argument.

Rianna, I'd like to reference the last line in your signature:

"Thou canst not then be false to any"

So which is it? Honesty or obfuscation?

[Amy Lynn3]

Zenith, this is just my way to try and help you. You stated you were meeting people from OKCupid. I am on that site too and may I offer you another free dating site name. It is Plenty Of Fish. I am on it too and have found it to be better for meeting people than OKC.

[Rianna Humble]

Then your take is wrong. As are your inferences regarding my position on the issue, which has to do only with honesty and openness. ?

Mere hypocrisy on your part. You set the standard that to be a woman someone needs to have all the right organs and be able to bear children. In setting that benchmark you exclude every infertile woman and everyone who has had a hysterectomy from womanhood.

More name-calling. The last resort of those unable to construct a reasoned argument.

I am not calling you names - to use your own words I'm just telling it like it is.

I am stating that your posts reveal you to be a bigot as well as a hypocrite. You don't get to decide whose posts here are valid and you certainly don't have the right to tell anyone to shut up. You seriously need professional help to get rid of this attitude.

Rianna, I'd like to reference the last line in your signature:

"Thou canst not then be false to any"

So which is it? Honesty or obfuscation?

The OP has not been dishonest. In fact she has done no more and no less than you yourself declared in a thread that you originated to be the standard and which I have referenced so that others can see your double standards.

You, on the other hand, are manifestly not being true to yourself since you advocate not telling someone about cross-dressing on the first date then castigate a woman for not telling her medical history on the first date.

I don't have to call you names, you define yourself more precisely with every post.

[Sophora]

Zenith, this is just my way to try and help you. You stated you were meeting people from OKCupid. I am on that site too and may I offer you another free dating site name. It is Plenty Of Fish. I am on it too and have found it to be better for meeting people than OKC.

I am wondering about dating sites now. I have an okcupid account now. I am wondering since I am starting to trans should I list my gender as female or continue to list it as male. I know that I will have to put something in my bio about being transgender but I am wanting to know what I should list as my gender.

Then your take is wrong. As are your inferences regarding my position on the issue, which has to do only with honesty and openness.

I guess my take is wrong as well then. I took as the same way. I may not be in appearance of a female yet but I feel more female than I do male. If you are saying that to be female I need to be able to have kids then why are any of us on here talking about this. the OP, a lot of the girls on here, and I would not be able to say we are female(I know I am just starting but damn it I am a girl too), and there would be no need for transistion as it wouldn't exist. it is very narrow minded thing to say and just doesn't fit in the world view. I also wonder if you gotten the view from South Park as Mr. Garrison said the exact same thing.

Zenith, I am so sorry for the derailment of your thread. I am happy that you are finding someone now. I hope you continue to be happy. You don't have to tell him until you are ready, although if it is getting serious I probably would.

[Veronica_Jean]

Julie,

I am so thrilled you have had this experience!! I know you will know when the time is right, if ever.

Don't worry about the rest, as you are the only one must be happy with your choices. That is the beauty of being whole.



Rebecca,

You seem to have numerous narrow definitions, whcih to apply to yourself is up to you, but to apply them to others is not your place.

As for honesty and openness, is everyone truly honest and open with everyone else? Do we not all... trans or not... choose who to share what details of our lives and under what circumstances? It is not wrong to keep these things to ourselves based on the circumstances. As my lawyer once told me "Am I under oath?"

I find your explainations of what defines a woman to be quite lacking, but you are entitled to your opinion, and I am entitled to disagree.

Veronica

[ReineD]

Then your take is wrong. As are your inferences regarding my position on the issue, which has to do only with honesty and openness.

RebeccaLynne, I don't think anyone is disputing your point about Julie disclosing her past to the prospective bf, should the thought of marriage and children appear on the horizon, least of all Julie. In her OP, Julie clearly stated her need for honesty and openness. She intends to tell him even before they potentially become intimate.

What you fail to understand is the difficulty transpersons face, in overcoming general society's bias against them; difficulties which are in large part present due to simple ignorance and beliefs in stereotypes. This is not only true for transwomen; it also applies to transmen and even CDers who seek relationships with GGs.

The best way to overcome such ill-considered and undiscerning bias is to first establish a friendship with someone so that inner qualities will outshine any preconceived ideas, whatever these may be. This holds true for any other matter that may be present in someone's past. Someone above mentioned having been incarcerated. I'll add having mental illness in the family, having had a child out of wedlock, having overcome alcoholism ... or any other challenge that many people face. Do we need to disclose all on the first date? Surely the answer in a resounding no, else only the people who have histories that fit within the perfect "ideal" would ever make it past the stage of getting to know and starting to care about one another.

Julie is choosing to establish a relationship with someone else, human to human, with a focus on essential inner qualities which ultimately is a much stronger indicator as to whether or not a relationship will be successful, than someone's past. If a birth GG should get into a relationship with a man knowing she can never have kids, will she be blamed for not telling him on the first date? No. Is it presumptuous of her to assume on the first date that their relationship is headed for marriage and children? Yes. If things develop, they can always make the decision to adopt. Or, if it is a deal breaker, then the prospective groom can decide to move on. I don't see this scenario as being much different than Julie's.

[SherriePall]

I was only going to wish Julie the best in the future, but now I must add something to the direction this post has taken. The sticking point seems to be the fact that Julie can't bear children. Doesn't matter that she may love children and want children in the future. The apparent point is that she can't have children on her own.
Forgive me in advance, but there are many GG's out there who can not bear children for whatever reason. Some may know ahead of time that they can't, but do they spill the beans on the first date? How about those women who can have children, but do not want any. Many for selfish reasons such as ruining a career or a fabulous figure. Should they tell on the first date? When should they tell? Do they ever tell?

Julie, I wish you the best and all the happiness in the world. Take care, dear.

[Michelle.M]

This is just so sad. Zenith wanted to celebrate something nice happening in her life and RebeccaLynne went and threadjacked the topic by making all those ignorant statements and generally just crapping on something sweet that we all wanted to enjoy.

RebeccaLynne, I know it's a stretch but is there any way at all that you could 1. stick to the topic and 2. just act like a decent human being?

Just asking.

[Barbara Dugan]

Getting back to the original purpose of this thread...I am very happy for Zenith and I am crossing all of my available fingers that he is the one

[LisaM]

Julie,
I am very happy for you. I hope.....you find happiness. I believe you will.

[Laurie Ann]

Julie I am very happy for you my heart skipped a beat reading your description. I hope this all works out the way you hope enjoy what may be developing. All my hopes for you happiness.

[Maddie22]

I'm really happy for you Julie!!! Finding a date is hard enough, finding someone to keep dating is even harder, so I hope things work out for the best for you!!!

[AKAMichelle]

We all knew that you would. I hope the experience is everything that you have hoped for.

[TerryTerri]

Zenith,
I wish all the happiness in the world finds you! I also hope that you do NOT leave our site soon. You are such an inspiration to me and many others here. Your overcome challenges and successes have truely helped me and I'm sure others as well. I hope (and believe) that others here helped you much as you have helped others.
I won't begrudge you if or when you leave. But, I hope you linger around here long after you 'need' us. For your presence benefits this site greatly and you are a solid piece of why this site is so helpful to so many of us. If you have to leave us someday, I will wish you all the best. But, I personally don't want to see you go until you must leave us.
I have no significant comment to make on the topic of 'disclosure' other than I think your conscience will guide you to the right time and way and what regarding all this. Trust your conscience, I don't think it will steer you wrong on this. That's my opinion and I do not to wish to comment on what others have said, or not said.

BTW, although many girls in the past transitioned and were able to go into deep stealth (Lynn Conway is a prime example), I think that possibility no longer reasonably or practically exists due to the internet, Google, etc. I know you already experienced stuff with that (why you went back to using Zenith instead of your common name on the site). So, I think it enevitable in this day and age a potential partner discovers parts of our past we may wish we could hide from.

[Rianna Humble]

I've grown so much on this site. A few years ago I was even to embarrassed to even pick up a copy of "TransAmerica". Now the time is nearing for me to leave the nest...

As you have grown, you have also helped and encouraged a great many people on the way. If you decide that it is time for you to leave, we will definitely miss you, but it is your choice and you must do what is right for you. Please be assured that whatever your decision, you will always be welcome amongst us.

[CharleneT]

Wow, what a wonderful story ! You surely deserve this and much better As for the hullabooloo about when to tell, only you can know the right moment - if ever. I told my current beau on our second date, but I didn't know till a few minutes before I did that it was what I was going to do ...