Milestone...first real date with a guy...

[linda allen]

Julie,

If you lie about your past, it's going to come back and bite you later on. Same for trying to evade issues. If this is a short term, casual relationship, you owe him nothing. If there's any chance of love developing, you have to tell him soon. If you don't tell him, or if he finds out some other way, the relationship will never recover.

Also, I don't know if you have had "relations" as a female yet, but it might be a lot easier if your "first time" was with someone who knows about your situation and cares about you.

[Frances]

If Julie ever enters into a serious relationship with a male (or anyone), she will need to tell him about her past. One, he deserves to know. Two, she will not be able to keep it from him forever. There will be family to meet, old childhood photos, the male name on the birth certificate and diplomas, etc.

Finding out that his girlfriend used to be a man will be pretty shocking for the unsuspecting guy. Tell him too soon and it may turn him off. Wait too long and it will be a matter of a broken trust.

If you lie about your past, it's going to come back and bite you later on. Same for trying to evade issues. If this is a short term, casual relationship, you owe him nothing. If there's any chance of love developing, you have to tell him soon. If you don't tell him, or if he finds out some other way, the relationship will never recover

There is so much projection and false assumptions in these posts. Not everyone has family to meet. I do not for one. Also, names are changed on birth certificates and can be changed on diplomas (at a cost); I do not know why someone would ask for a diploma however. Some people do not keep childhood photos.

The problem with these posts and Rebacca's is the projection of fears and psychological diplacement. The boyfriend does not deserve to know, and he may not find it shocking. You would. You are projecting your own feelings on Julie's love interest(s). And so was Rebecca. It would be nice for someone, once, to say something like: "if I were the lover, I would like to know" instead of telling us how to behave in relationships because of our trans past. Your posts seem transphobic to me.

Are you trans yourself? Do you know a lot of trans people? I know a trans woman who told her husband after ten years of marriage. He did not walk out on her. My girlfriend has never told any of her male lovers she was trans since SRS, and does not need to. What is your personal experience on this matter?

Dating is not easy for trans women whether they are attracted to men or women. Trans-trans couples are not rare for this reason, but telling or not, and how, belongs to the trans person.

[Laurie Ann]

WOW such long winded discourse on a subject which is no body's business. Julie is a beautiful intelligent woman who knows how to handle her relationships by herself. We should all be supporting her and hoping she enjoys what she has going for as long as it lasts.

[Melody Moore]

Why should I tell anyone that I once lived as a male when the truth is that I was always a female, but for many
years I was in denial & living a lie? The truth is what you see before you now - so why even bother talking about
what was essentially the biggest lie of my life?

[Jill Devine]

Rebecca! If being able to carry a baby is the #1 measure of being a real women then you are basically saying many GGs are not real women because infertility is a problem for millions of GGs worldwide. And then how soon should a barren woman "come clean" with a new love interest? Should she inform every new guy on the first date that she's infertile and not a full woman?

Jeepers. This forum is meant to support and for edifying. But your tone is rather harsh.

[linda allen]

There is so much projection and false assumptions in these posts. Not everyone has family to meet. I do not for one. Also, names are changed on birth certificates and can be changed on diplomas (at a cost); I do not know why someone would ask for a diploma however. Some people do not keep childhood photos.

The problem with these posts and Rebacca's is the projection of fears and psychological diplacement. The boyfriend does not deserve to know, and he may not find it shocking. You would. You are projecting your own feelings on Julie's love interest(s). And so was Rebecca. It would be nice for someone, once, to say something like: "if I were the lover, I would like to know" instead of telling us how to behave in relationships because of our trans past. Your posts seem transphobic to me.

Are you trans yourself? Do you know a lot of trans people? I know a trans woman who told her husband after ten years of marriage. He did not walk out on her. My girlfriend has never told any of her male lovers she was trans since SRS, and does not need to. What is your personal experience on this matter?

Dating is not easy for trans women whether they are attracted to men or women. Trans-trans couples are not rare for this reason, but telling or not, and how, belongs to the trans person.

Not transphobic, realistic. We don't agree. That's fine. Julie should consider everything and make her own decision.

[Michelle.M]

Not transphobic, realistic. We don't agree. That's fine. Julie should consider everything and make her own decision.

No, it's not realistic. What is realistic to you is an imposed burden on someone else. When one decides to live full time as a woman, when one does (or chooses not to) undergo HRT or SRS that person assumes all the risks, responsibilities, benefits, rights, challenges and choices that go along with her decision. And that decision along with all those other things are hers, not anyone else's. Nobody gets to dictate as to how she should live her life. For anyone to preach about what is "right", especially when they have not undertaken those same challenges, is (as Frances points out) a projection of that person's own fears and psychological displacement.

That projection of fear is the basis of what we'd call transphobic.

To dictate the standards of gender-oriented conduct for a trans person is transmysoginistic.

Whatever terminology we use does not mask the point that someone is willing to saddle Julie (and by extension, the rest of us) with a burden that nobody should have to bear.

[Frances]

My girlfriend wants to respond, but her membership has not been approved yet. Here is her take on this matter.

Not transphobic, realistic. We don't agree. That's fine. Julie should consider everything and make her own decision.

It's all too easy to get away with hateful or wrong statements by adding you're being "realistic". I used to have a friend who'd go on and on about "the damn black guys who steal our women" and when I'd call him a racist, he'd reply just that: "I'm not a racist, I'm being realistic". I'm sorry but there are cases where a statement is just unacceptable. If we were all "realistic" like that, nothing would ever change in our society.

Being transsexual myself (post-op), I think the matter of disclosure is a highly personal one. Whether you choose to tell or not to tell, the most important thing is that you feel confident about yourself and your choice, and not do it under pressure from anyone (and if you do tell, PLEASE make it safe, i.e. a public place or whatever).

One thing's for sure, not telling upfront doesn't equal lying. As a person you have a right to choose the proper time for such an announcement. As a pre-op I had dates with several men and I always chose to wait for as long as possible before telling, just like any other personal information. With the right attitude ("There's something I have to tell you, I'm sorry I waited but now I know I can trust you with this") men generally answer rather favorably in my experience. Hey, all guys aren't that bad

Zenith, I have no right telling you to do this or that (no one does). I will however say I'm very happy for you. A first date is an amazing moment. I hope you make the most of it and I'm sure you'll make the right decision for yourself.

Juliette

[ReineD]

To Frances' girlfriend and everyone else who feels similarly, I have a question. Please understand I am not placing judgment on anyone when I ask this but rather, I'm trying to make sense of conflicting ways to handle what appears to be similar situations.

In the CDing and Loved Ones sections, people generally advise CDers to tell prospective partners about the CDing sooner rather than later and further, if a CDer posts that he doesn't plan on telling his wife at all most people will talk at length over the mistake in not telling. The GG SOs seem to be almost universally upset over having been told years into their relationships, and even more so if they discover the CDing through their partner's oversight. There hasn't been much discussion over how friends or adult children feel about also not being told until much later so it's impossible to say if most would be upset or not.

So, if a wife or girlfriend becomes angry over not initially being told about something that her partner does, how would the partner of a TS, or his or her friends, feel about not initially being told about gender or sexual reassignment? (I don't know which is the preferred term, GRS or SRS).

Again, I'm not bringing this up to argue the case either way. I just don't know how to look at it and I'm interested in reading your thoughts.

[Michelle.M]

Being pre-op I will defer to those who are farther along in their journey than I am, but IMHO the issue is not the same. If one has to actually tell an SO they are a CD then it may be because (a) they are at that moment presenting as male and at some point they will be en femme, and at that time they feel that their SO will think this bears explanation or (b) they are presenting as female and when the dress comes off they will probably be asked for an explanation as to why there are boy parts underneath the dress.

In other words, in whatever mode they present they are not generally presenting full time, and I could see where the CD herself would feel compelled to offer some disclosure. And for the SO, if she sees that she is dating a man she may be surprised to see he has a feminine aspect to his character that she had not bargained for. This, as well as society's difficulty with gender variance, may cause a problem. But with a trans woman what you see is what you get (remember, we're talking about post-op here), and there is no changing presentations between boy mode and girl mode.

Having had SRS means that she lives as a woman, all the time and that it all looks like it should, all the time. That's the whole point of SRS - to align body image and soul image to ease gender dissonance. Having to explain something that would only be generally discovered by a gynecologist sort of defeats the purpose of being able to live your life as your true gender. If you have to constantly explain that which is gone and in the past then how are you to live your life fully?

Put this in natal woman terms. What woman would tolerate being told she MUST divulge things about her past that have no bearing on her important relationships? If she quit smoking, flunked college, had a bad relationship with someone, a failed business, overcame drug addiction - all in the past, let's move forward. She may choose to discuss it if she believes that the relationship will be helped by the information, but if not then why burden someone else with something that's been overcome? And either way, that is her choice, not anyone else's.

The theme we keep coming back to is the presence or absence of primary sex characteristics. The secondary ones (bodily changes brought on by hormones) are no different than those of natal women. The tertiary ones (wardrobe and grooming) are also equal to that of natal women. There is absolutely no difference!

So the sticking point seems to be the primary sex characteristics (natural vagina and reproductive system). If a natal woman was meeting someone who wanted to start a family her hysterectomy would be an issue, unless the man was willing to adopt children. But that would be something discussed if the relationship got serious, not at the outset. And does a woman (natal or trans) really need to say anything more than "I can't have children. How do you feel about adoption?"

To state that a woman (natal or trans) is being dishonest by not discussing things like that early on, or until (or unless) it was necessary - or even at all - is simply narrow-minded, arrogant and cruel, and the criteria that's been used in this thread to justify that viewpoint have been transphobic and cissesxist.

[Frances]

Juliette wished to answer the question. I hope her membership is accepted soon, as these postings will not go on her record.

Hi Reine,

Thanks for your question. Very interesting.

In my opinion these situations are not similar.

Transsexuality is essential to the person's identity, deep down. I don't know the first thing about crossdressing, but in my understanding it is only one aspect of the life of an otherwise healthy and well balanced person. To put it simply, take out the crossdressing, and you still know the person. Take out the transsexuality, you aren't left with much of her.

That being said...

I would venture to say that there are two stages in transsexuality, especially from a relationship standpoint. If the person hasn't started transition, and is contemplating a new relationship, I would agree that talking about her (his) gender dysphoria up front would make sense. Transsexuality is in her present and future.

But if you've transitioned already, as is Zenith's case, then transsexuality is, up to a certain point, in your past. Therefore it falls in the same category as all the other troublesome experiences that have forged the person you are today, but that you may not want to disclose on a first date.

In my case, I could say I'm a transsexual, I'm a victim of child abuse (when I was 4), -- on a lighter note, I grew up in one of the richest parts of my hometown, we had a cottage up north, and obviously there's so much more I could say. What am I obligated to disclose on a first date? What's the proper balance between saying too much and too little? Personally I have various levels of "privacy" and I need to build confidence (and reciprocation) before I dig in too deep.

Not disclosing, for a transsexual, is sometimes a matter of security -- but certainly in my opinion it is not something to be shared lightly to anyone.

Juliette

[ReineD]

Oh, I'm all in favor of not disclosing anything on the first date, even for CDers. Anyone would want to have a chance for at least friendship bonds to form, in order to make it easier to dispel the notion of stereotypes down the road. There's just way too much misinformation out there that is still believed by most people to be factual, to handle this any other way.

I suppose the question is rather when to tell ... third date? Three months? As has been mentioned above by several people, this has to be an individual decision based on individual circumstances and how quickly the relationships develop from the mere acquaintance stage.

Maybe I misread some of the people I thought were suggesting that it is not necessary to tell, ever, and this is why I asked my question.

[Frances]

Maybe I misread some of the people I thought were suggesting that it is not necessary to tell, ever, and this is why I asked my question.

You did not misread my posts. I don't think it is necessary. Aleshia Brevard, for one, did not tell two of her three husbands.

[ReineD]

Who's Alishia Brevard?

Put this in natal woman terms. What woman would tolerate being told she MUST divulge things about her past that have no bearing on her important relationships? If she quit smoking, flunked college, had a bad relationship with someone, a failed business, overcame drug addiction - all in the past, let's move forward.

Speaking strictly for myself ... I have skeletons in my closet that aren't very pretty and I can't imagine being in a relationship with someone without disclosing all. I would also expect my partner to do the same. This includes what you mentioned, plus having been incarcerated or institutionalized (suicide attempt for example), having a mental or severe physical illness in the family, having had a child out of wedlock, or a number of other things. You just never know what a partner might object to, should he or she find out from someone else down the road. It is likely the biggest complaint would be to not have been told.

And does a woman (natal or trans) really need to say anything more than "I can't have children. How do you feel about adoption?"

This is tricky, certainly. I don't have all the answers. I guess the decision to not disclose the SRS would be fine if she knew without a doubt that it wouldn't be important to her partner.. But if this were the case, surely there would be no harm in mentioning it? The danger, as I said, would be to not disclose it, have him find out later through someone else that his wife was born with male genitals, and he wouldn't take it very well at all. The decision to tell would ultimately benefit the teller, not the one who receives the news.

To state that a woman (natal or trans) is being dishonest by not discussing things like that early on, or until (or unless) it was necessary - or even at all - is simply narrow-minded, arrogant and cruel, and the criteria that's been used in this thread to justify that viewpoint have been transphobic and cissesxist.

I agree that highly personal things shouldn't be shouted across the rooftops, nor should they be disclosed to anyone unless the relationships become intimate.

But, a crucial aspect of forming a deep intimacy with someone is the sharing of ourselves, the good and the bad, so that partners or very close friends can accept and love us for everything that we are. Just as we would do for them. This is what forms the strongest bonds that anyone can make with another human being.

Still, I also believe it is entirely up to a TS whether she chooses to tell or not.

[Michelle.M]

Well, regarding disclosure and close relationships, I'll say this.

In the last serious relationship I had we both had things in our past that we each believed needed to stay there. When certain questions were asked that began to lead in that direction, either of us would say "Well, I have done things that I am not proud of and I'd prefer not to discuss that because I don't believe that it will make either of us feel better about our relationship. But it's in the past and I would do anything to keep from doing it again or letting it be a threat to us."

And that seemed to work. And to be honest, since I know there are people out there who think like that I doubt that I would ever attempt to make a life with someone who did not have a similar outlook.

[ReineD]

OK, Michelle, it's settled. You and I aren't compatible, serious relationship wise.

But, I hope we can still be friends!

[Michelle.M]

OK, Michelle, it's settled. You and I aren't compatible, serious relationship wise.

But, I hope we can still be friends!

<3

[AKAMichelle]

I think the major deciding point is if you are prepared to live with the consequences of what will happen if someone finds out something without being told by you. The person you mentioned may not have told their husbands, but if the husbands found out would it have ended the relationship. If the answer here is "YES" then it was wrong to hide it from them. That person entrapped them with deceit. The problem here is hard to determine. It is a very personal issue and I have an opinion like everyone else here.

I think before things get intimate it is best to tell. That can be stretched out by just waiting until later to be intimate.

[Rianna Humble]

I think the major deciding point is if you are prepared to live with the consequences of what will happen if someone finds out something without being told by you.

That question can apply to any traumatic event in someone's past. I was witness at the wedding of my two best friends whilst living in France. The (then) bride-to-be had been raped when she was a young child. Was she being deceitful by withholding that information? The (then) husband-to-be had fairly strong views on sex outside of marriage. She did eventually tell him before they were married, but only after I had managed to bring her to a point where she could accept that she was not responsible for what happened to her. By that time, they were very serious in their relationship, did she entrap him?

The person you mentioned may not have told their husbands, but if the husbands found out would it have ended the relationship. If the answer here is "YES" then it was wrong to hide it from them. That person entrapped them with deceit.

That is one of the most sexist remarks I have read in this thread. Each of the husbands married a woman - not a man in any sense of the term, more to the point they married a person with whom they had a loving relationship. I do not know Aleshia Brevard, but unless you have proof that she went out of her way to persuade the husbands that they needed to marry her. then you have no justification for calling it entrapment.

["Mary"]

Wow

1 - Very happy for you Julie. It's wonderful that you're connecting with folks since you seem to be a wonderful person.
2 - Dangerous ground on the trans/tell matter. Follow your heart and I'm sure you'll do the right thing.
3 - Don't leave us.

Thanks for sharing. Best wishes as the new relationship moves forward.

[Melody Moore]

Linda, you never did answer these questions by Frances....

Are you trans yourself? Do you know a lot of trans people?

Since Linda hasn't answered that question for Frances & the rest of us here, I think I will answer it on his behalf
after I took a look at some of his postings. Linda indicates in his postings that he is a closet CD & not even his
wife knows about his cross-dressing desires or habits & here is why I say this....

Do you recall any of these statements you made in the most recent thread you posted Linda?

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...think-so.-quot

My wife and I used to belong to a gym. We quit because of maintenance and staff attitude issues. She joined a "women only" gym and really likes it. Yesterday I was complaining to her about some aches and pains and she said to me that I should start exercising. I said "Maybe I could buy a wig and a set of falsies and join your gym." She gave me a very strange look for a second, then a normal look and replied "I don't think so."

It would help if you knew that:

1 She doesn't know I cross dress.

2 I was kidding. Of course I would be found out. It's just that funny look she gave me for an instant. Maybe she does know.

Not transphobic, realistic.

No Linda you are not realistic, you are extremely transphobic, to the point you can't even be honest with your wife!

So please cut the crap. I also strongly suspect that you hide your face in your avatar because fear anyone knowing
anything about you. Your knowledge about transsexualism is obviously very limited & you have no experience to have
any sort of qualified opinion about what others should be doing. It's also extremely hypocritical that you are advising
Julie here to be honest when you can't even be honest to your wife.

Julie seems like the type of girl who is very happy about being in 'stealth-mode' because she passes so well & I think
that you have some issues with that because you don't pass at all & cannot even be honest to your own wife. So as
far as I am concerned, your personal opinion is extremely hypocritical & means absolutely nothing to me & others here.

PS: Linda are you still borrowing your wife's clothes every time she turns her back & is away?

Hi Reine,

I think comparing CDing to transsexualism is like comparing a pear to an onion, they have very little to virtually
nothing in common. For a start transsexuals go on hormones which make permanent life changing alterations to
their bodies & often plan of having GRS/SRS in the future. So if you are already in a relationship then there is a
very obvious need to disclose this information to your partner because they might not be prepared to be with a
person of the same sex. Now a cross-dresser is a man or a woman who is only dressing up, 'pretending' to be a
member of the opposite sex. Putting on clothes of the opposite sex doesn't have anywhere near the amount of
implications for a partner of someone who starts taking cross-sex hormones & is thinking about GRS/SRS.

[ReineD]

That is one of the most sexist remarks I have read in this thread. Each of the husbands married a woman - not a man in any sense of the term, more to the point they married a person with whom they had a loving relationship.

This is true. The husbands married a woman in every sense of the word. And if she cannot have children she isn't any different than birth women who also cannot have children.

Yet, there is still a difference and it has nothing to do with actual gender. It has more to do with the spouse's perception of what is gender, if this spouse is ignorant of what we know here.

Most people, although it is rapidly improving, have no concept of gender other than the idea there are genetic men who believe they are men, genetic women who believe they are women, and nothing else except in movies. Until I got to know transwomen and transmen, my own knowledge was nebulous at best. Also, most people do have preconceived ideas that chromosomes define a man or a woman, even if they are wrong. It would be nice if schools provided a much more comprehensive education of gender and sexuality, and if everyone were raised in a progressive, bias free environment but sadly this isn't currently the case in our society.

So, there is a risk a spouse might feel lied to if he doesn't know the history and inadvertently discovers the past. You see this all the time on the other side of the forum with the GGs. I know that a TS and a CD are entirely different. But the similarity lies in their spouses. There is something that a GG needs to learn if she ever finds her husband's "stash" and that is, her man is still the man she has always known. In the TS's husband's case, if for any reason he should ever discover his wife's past, he needs to somehow realize that his wife is still the woman he has always known. Unfortunately, both the CD's wife and the TS's husband may feel aggrieved and be less likely to have an open mind if they feel they were lied to. They would also feel hurt by the lack of trust. They stand a much better chance to be willing to internalize their new understanding and move forward if they are told the history by their spouses rather than finding out by accident.

Now if both the CD's wife and the TS's husband are entrenched in the trans community, or they've had training in gender and sexuality and are as familiar with the realities as everyone here, it likely wouldn't be a big deal should they find out from someone else that their assumptions about their spouses were incorrect. The assumptions being, in the CD's wife's case that her husband doesn't wish to present as a woman occasionally and in the TS's husband's case, that his wife was born XX.

I still believe that to tell or not to tell is entirely the TS's option. But, I'm just afraid that she would risk losing her husband should he learn of her past through other means than through her.

[Plasibeau]

Partially. You've been surgically transformed into what "appears to be a woman". Yet you possess neither ovaries nor a uterus, making you unable to bear children. So do you wait to tell him until he expresses the desire to raise a family?

ETC........

Seriously?

So by the same argument my friend who got ovarian cancer at 19 and had a full hysterectomy as a result isn't a woman either? Or if we simply focus on the ability to bear children, a woman who has scarlet fever as a child and is made sterile, she's not a woman either? Or a man who suffers an injury to his groin from a collapsed steering column in an accident, he now has to sit to pee and cannot produce sperm, is he no longer a man?

Gender is in the brain and nowhere else.

This is one of those moments where it would just be better to have kept your own counsel. And no you are not transphobic, that would require an irrational fear. What you sound like is ignorant and blissfully so. And shame on you for reveling in it.

[Michelle.M]

This is true. The husbands married a woman in every sense of the word. And if she cannot have children she isn't any different than birth women who also cannot have children.

Exactly! This is the point we've been trying to make throughout this thread.

Yet, there is still a difference and it has nothing to do with actual gender. It has more to do with the spouse's perception of what is gender, if this spouse is ignorant of what we know here.

This brings up another good point. The issues here have absolutely nothing to do with Julie's (or anyone's) "dishonesty" as has been alleged. The problem does not lie with the trans woman, but rather with society's (and by extension, the man's) state of gender identity awareness and acceptance that makes it desirable, maybe even necessary for survival, for someone to not reveal the configuration of their chromosomes.

Compatibility in a relationship is paramount. During the dating phase we're figuring each other out, whether they like baseball, get along with parents, etc. Attitudes about religion, politics and social issues are part of that. I am not an ethnic minority but I wouldn't want to be with someone who had racist tendencies. Likewise I don't care for negative attitudes regarding diversity, whether I have a personal stake or not.

If I were dating someone and they revealed such negative attitudes I'd end the relationship. If I found they had a positive outlook on gender diversity and gender identity I might or might not share my trans status, but at least I'd already know that whether I did or not he wouldn't have a problem with transgender folk in principle.

So the issue that remains - is not telling this particular positive-minded guy still deceitful? REF my prior post, depends on the relationship. If this one is like the last one and we've established some norms regarding what is current and what is past (and stays there, unspoken), there's no need. If you're dating someone who demands to know every detail of every day of your life, then you might need to rethink whether this is the guy for you.

[Frances]

Aleshia Brevard is a stage and screen actress (television and films), among other acomplishments, who transitioned young and never told the public about her pre-transition years until fairly recently. She has written an autobiography (The Woman I Was Not Born To Be).

http://www.aleshiabrevard.com

http://www.google.ca/search?q=aleshi...w&ved=0CDkQsAQ