Men Crossdressing vs. Women Crossdressing

[ikthys]

There certainly is a difference between a woman wearing a wide array of styles (including anything available for men whether cut for a woman or not) and a woman intentionally trying to portray a man. I think there are a good number of the latter, though not as many as the other way around. The issue of women having more available to them is a huge factor, but not because it eliminates the need so much as it removes the possibility of the powerful identification a man can feel when wearing items that are "off limits" except to the opposite gender (like panties, heels, hose, dress, etc.). There is simply no good comparison that could generate the same psychic senstation for a woman. However, I think the more important issue is the rigidity and narrowness of the gender role for men in western culture when compared to that of women. This makes men all the more predisposed to wanted to have such a "crossing" sensation in the first place (like crossing a bridge out of bondage). As for body form, I think it is mostly a non-issue because, whereas breasts compose a profound element of the look of a woman, a penis does not do the same for a man (it is largely hidden in our clothes). Similarly, whereas a penis destroys a female look (hence tucking), breasts generally would not do the same to a male look. The only real issue for a male look might be facial hair, but most men don't keep theirs and, practically speaking, in the end only a small percentage of FTM cders would end up pursuing this anyway, making their numbers that much smaller.

[Eryn]

So ... (this is me writing again), there is much more to it than the fact that it is easier or more acceptable for women to be masculine than it is for men to be feminine.

I agree with you for the most part, Reine, but there must be a good reason why Matt Kailey made the easier acceptance of masculine traits in females #1 on his list.

To Intertwined, 2SpeedTranny, and notquitegirl, I interpret "accepted by society" as meaning able to function normally in all situations. To explore this concept, consider a male donning a floral dress and walking into a masculine environment such as a bar with Harley-Davidsons parked in front. Unless he happened to be the size of Mongo he wouldn't last long. Now consider a woman donning a typical male outfit of leather jacket, jeans, and boots going into a feminine environment such as a beauty parlor. She might be considered "a bit edgy" but she certainly wouldn't be ostracized.

In short, though men may be tolerated while wearing feminine styles, they are far from being accepted by society in general.

[sherib]

Quite a few women dress in men clothes but they still look and act as women. Some used men's clothes to do work outside because men's clothes are more confortable for work, some for comfort because mens clothing is more loose than womens clothes. That's not including trans women, they dress for other reasons. Few women want to look like the average fat american male. If women's body looked like most men's, I don't think I would be a crossdressers.

[Jilmac]

Perhaps it's the old female perception that all men are pigs. Why would a woman want to emulate something they find so disgusting?

[LilSissyStevie]

I don't think any of Matt Kailey's points explain the huge disparity between the prevalence of MTFs over FTMs but I don't have any better explanations. How do you think he would explain the apparent fact that there are more transmen than FTM crossdressers given that there are far more MTF crossdressers than transwomen?

[GaleWarning]

Ok she finds this interesting, but notes that many men CDs frequently prosthetic breasts etc. and may tuck and so forth. But when women crossdress do they wear a fake phallus or is all about the clothing and shoes?

I also think that Matt doesn't address the above issues.

[2SpeedTranny]

To Intertwined, 2SpeedTranny, and notquitegirl, I interpret "accepted by society" as meaning able to function normally in all situations. To explore this concept, consider a male donning a floral dress and walking into a masculine environment such as a bar with Harley-Davidsons parked in front. Unless he happened to be the size of Mongo he wouldn't last long.

Wow, talk about bigotry. Do you even know any bikers? I suspect not, or you'd know that a majority of Harley riders now are businessmen, bankers, lawyers, doctors... they buy Harleys and ride to dive bars so they don't feel so much like disconnected suburb dwellers. They're the only people who can afford Harleys, anyway. And if you're talking about the old-fashioned MCs, like Hell's Angels... remember half of them are federal agents anyway.

There may be a few bad apples in every barrel, but hordes of bikers are not out there waiting to squish trannies that happen to wander by. That's the kind of thinking that keeps you a victim.

[Annaliese2010]

A GG woman doesn't desire to mimic assume or otherwise take on the persona of a man because one doesn't normally desire to 'step-down' from the higher to the lower. It goes against the natural grain and the instinct for survival. There is really nothing to be gained, only lost when ones vision now compromise by some narrowing targeted too highly focused tunneling that precludes eyes that sweep the panoramic all encompassing worldview now leaving, too high is the cost. No one trades a $50 for a 20 an upscale home for low scale renting a shiny new car for one with denting peace of mind for angry venting a clear bright day for murky fog nor a princess for a frog.

[ReineD]

Ok she finds this interesting, but notes that many men CDs frequently prosthetic breasts etc. and may tuck and so forth. But when women crossdress do they wear a fake phallus or is all about the clothing and shoes?

That's because there aren't many female born crossdressers! There aren't as many females who consciously attempt to present as males (other than transmen), as there are birth males who wish to present as females.

This is just a pet theory, but I think there might be a correlation between sex drives, tendencies for the adoption of sexual fetish, and a desire to crossdress. Lots of people here say the CDing began as a highly sexual thing during the teenage years, and there are tons of trans porn sites/yahoo groups/chat places/dating sites, not including all the profiles on social networks and image hosting sites that cater to the sexual aspect of the CDing. I just don't think that women are generally wired to get a sexual kick out of the crossdressing like men do, so there's nothing on which to build a crossdressing foundation. If a birth female feels male gendered, then he's a transman and he doesn't crossdress for kicks.

[Fab Karen]

As to why there are fewer genetic females who crossdress than genetic males, I believe it is because females are generally not as sexually driven as males. Somehow I just can't picture a woman becoming sexually excited over wearing male briefs. (Generally speaking).

Many of us aren't doing it for sexual thrills. Let's not continue pushing sterotypes.

[Eryn]

Wow, talk about bigotry. Do you even know any bikers? I suspect not, or you'd know that a majority of Harley riders now are businessmen, bankers, lawyers, doctors... they buy Harleys and ride to dive bars so they don't feel so much like disconnected suburb dwellers.

I've ridden bikes for 35 years and hundreds of thousands of miles. I know about the RUBs, but I was referring to the real thing, such as the Mongols or Pagans.

[ReineD]

Many of us aren't doing it for sexual thrills. Let's not continue pushing sterotypes.

I think this forum is an island, really. We edit the sexual stuff out and members here know the forum's primary purpose is emotional support. The people who stay here don't CD primarily for sexual reasons even if it started that way (or they keep it out of their posts), and I do realize this.

The comment I made above was a description of what I've seen online, and like it or not, there are lots of CDers who do this for kicks. Maybe it's easy to lose sight of this because there is nothing for these CDers in this forum, while there is so much available for them elsewhere. All these other sites do exist.

[TGMarla]

Suit and a tie, suit and a tie, suit and a tie, suit and a tie........Boooooorrrrringggg!

Meanwhile, you can look at a thousand dresses, skirts, blouses, etc., and never see the same thing twice. Women's fashions are infinity. Men's fashions, while elegant and good looking, are very constricted. There's very little variety. And while women are allowed pretty much to wear whatever they want to, men are forbidden from wearing things like dresses, high heels, and hosiery. Yet most heterosexual men are very attracted to these very things when they see women wearing them. There are few things that turn a man's attention more than a smartly dressed woman. So it's not much of a stretch for his curiosity to prevail, and he'll try that hosiery or that dress on himself. And as most crossdressers will attest, once you try on that hosiery, you're often hooked.

That's reason one.

Now, it's been mentioned that most MtF crossdressers aren't in it just for the clothes. They do the wigs, the breasts, tucking (some of us), and so on and so forth. Well, that's true. I admit that I'm in it for way more than the clothes, but the clothes are a real big part of it. I like "having" breasts. It just feels right. And although it's true that breasts do make the clothes look better, for me it goes deeper than that. As for the hair, all guys are societally conditioned to wear their hair short, while women get the luxury of wearing their hair in any way the want to. Furthermore, our hair tends to fall out after a time, and to many of us, that's tragic. Wigs give us a nice head of hair, and the ability to wear it long and in any style we want to. When it comes to hair, you girls don't know how good you have it. You may like your hair, but you take it for granted to some extent.

That's reason two.

I don't much buy into that social standard thing, where men are stepping down from an elevated social level when they crossdress. That may have been true at one time, but I think that time has passed. I do think that a lot of crossdressing, if not sexually driven, at least started out that way. It becomes a sexual behavior, and that's something that gets ingrained into your blueprints. So even after the sexual excitement of it abates, it still feels emotionally stimulating to dress up. And since men are far more sexually motivated than are women, generally speaking, and since our modern media exploits women to such a degree physically, there is a whole lot more motivation for men to experiment with crossdressing than there is for women. Also, I think more MtF crossdressers are sexually motivated than will admit to it.

That's reason three.

I'm sure there are more reasons than this, but there are three good reasons to start with.

[Emma England]

I certainly don't get any sexual feelings when I dress.

I'm lucky in that my mother has blessed me with thick hair. I have grown it to just below my shoulders - all natural.
Why should I spoil it by cropping it short?

The previous post mentioned a suit and tie is boring. Isn't a skirt suit just as boring?

[abbykins]

I think this forum is an island, really. We edit the sexual stuff out and members here know the forum's primary purpose is emotional support. The people who stay here don't CD primarily for sexual reasons even if it started that way (or they keep it out of their posts), and I do realize this.

The comment I made above was a description of what I've seen online, and like it or not, there are lots of CDers who do this for kicks. Maybe it's easy to lose sight of this because there is nothing for these CDers in this forum, while there is so much available for them elsewhere. All these other sites do exist.

I think that's true, Reine, and in that case, it's useful to treat those groups separately in discussing this. It's been said that more men CD because there is a sexual component; that's true if we lump the sexual and non-sexual CDers together. But what if we compare the non-sexual MtF and FtM CDers? I imagine these groups are much more similar in size.

As a non-sexual CDer, I'm only interested in contrasting the non-sexual CDers. I read the whole thread (thanks everyone for your insights) and I think we should differentiate between sexual and non-sexual CDing. The original poster, Darla, asked why there were so many more male CDers. Taken out of context, the answer is that many men do it for sexual kicks. However, Darla also specified: "and by women crossdressing I am talking about a woman taking on the persona of a man". Men CDing for sexual kicks, the men on 'other' sites, aren't taking on the persona of a woman.

[Samantha B L]

I think you might be surprised just how many women are crossdressing right before your eyes. They, unlike us, have the ability to go undetected and they don't have the fears males have about perception.

For all the exclamations here that it is non-sexual, most MtF crossdressers have a sexual component at least early on. It is a male thing where sexual feelings are very strong early on in life. I do believe that most here outgrow the sexual "need" as they age and we become as we say just men who prefer the clothes.

I personally know three women who are crossdressers in the way men on these boards are. They wear men's underwear daily as underwear and not fashion. Two wear tighty whities as their sole undergarment. Both are small enough breasted to not always have to wear a bra. They often act as we expect men to act with sexual innuendos and rough speech. They have been known to sexually aggressive (maybe I notice this because they have done this toward me). The third wears boxers exclusively as her lower undergarment. They, like us, claim comfort.

I also think that FtM crossdressers have a different mindset on facial looks. They can and do just go without make up (or minimal). They can wear their hair shorter or even shave the head. They can purchase and wear men's clothing in smaller sizes and go un-noticed (no one looks to see if the buttons go one way or the other).

In the MtF side so many have the idea that the clothing and the make-up are inherent to the role. So many here say they want to blend. On the FtM crossdresser side blending is virtually a non-issue unless they desire facial hair or they are well endowed but even then the use of minimizer bras can help. No one looks to see if the legs are smooth or not. And women who don't shave their legs are not questioned but often thought of as hippy or bohemian.

Why don't you see as many FtM "crossdresser" (and I am excluding transsexuals here because they are truly men in the wrong shell) it is because they don't make as big a ruckus as the MtF crossdresser does. They don't worry what the neighbors think. They don't go out looking for sexual encounters. They don't flaunt it or make a fuss about how they are abused by society. They are there, maybe not as many as the MtF side but they are there and YOU just don't see it because they don't look like scared rabbits, or they don't dress as "Little Lord Fauntleroy", or they don't broadcast to the world what kind of underwear they are wearing. They just go about their business as usual. 50 years ago they go the same taunting we get now. They were considered odd or sexual deviants when they wore male clothing but they handled it differently than the men here do. They didn't shrink off to the closet. They embraced the look, called it fashion and their sisters supported them. They claimed comfort and stuck by that instead of caving when they were questioned on it. They claimed equality and held it (as much as it is right now). They didn't care what their friends neighbors or spouses said. They stuck by it, Some may have lost family and spouses over it. I am sure that there were men back then who asked (or assumed) are you gay? Do you want to be a man? Will I lose the power I have in this marriage? But it seems to have worked out. It just shows how women have more stick-to-it-iveness. Men have never had to fight for equality. Yes they fight over other things but equality is different.

I think f to m's should be aknowledged more. I've seen literature which says there are as many of them out there as m to f's. My first good freind in the LGBT community after high school was a woman with pronounced female to male tendencies. She lit my cigarettes for me and held the door for me! And too,I'm doing this(crossdressing) for fun and pleasure primarily. You don't owe anybody any explanations if it's sexual or not(which it isn't for everybody anyway)it's just that it's something I enjoy tremendously. And I think there are inherited factors which are hormonal and neurological all at once. I have kind of a"sissy"side to my personality which just seemed to be there ever since I could remember. And as Lori points out,things aren't easy for the m to f's. In fact they have actually a much more difficult uphill climb. People sometimes resent them for their wanting to take on a manly role.

[Sue101]

The comment I made above was a description of what I've seen online, and like it or not, there are lots of CDers who do this for kicks. Maybe it's easy to lose sight of this because there is nothing for these CDers in this forum, while there is so much available for them elsewhere. All these other sites do exist.

Very true. It is not stereotyping when the sexual kicks crossdressers get is clearly the dominant behavior in the overall community.

But I think you are making a serious mistake in this analysis because most crossdressers develop their habit years before puberty arrives. So while sexuality often becomes all consuming and ends up defining crossdressing for many, it is not the original cause.

While transsexuality is about gender identity, crossdressing is about gender roles. Essentially it is about boys feeling uncomfortable about certain aspects of the adult male role in society and in personal relationships and seeking refuge by creating a female personality within himself to escape to in his fantasies which later on he recreates in real life by crossdressing. Boys are trying to evade aggressive and competitive traits that society tells them they must develop to succeed.

It is mostly boys with quiet, sensitive, introspective personalities who develop the notion that being a girl is a less stressful, safer, more comfortable, more fun way to live life. This makes boys secretly rebel against masculine indoctrination although they play along sufficiently well to fool people that they are becoming a fully fledged "real" man when it is just a facade from the start.

So the reason why female crossdressers are so rare is that female upbringing does not create the same pressures which makes girls want create a male alter ego to escape to. Women can be tomboys and access male roles and responsibilities if they wish while still maintaining a positive female gender role. Girls are not required to make a 180 degree turnaround in the gender roles instead adulthood is an extension of childhood gender.

[ReineD]

The original poster, Darla, asked why there were so many more male CDers. Taken out of context, the answer is that many men do it for sexual kicks. However, Darla also specified: "and by women crossdressing I am talking about a woman taking on the persona of a man".

This is true, but then Darla came in later and specified, why are there more males who wish to wear forms when they crossdress than there are crossdressing females who try to present as men when they wear pants, to the point of packing (and I'm adding, gluing on facial hair)? I think that Darla was saying it is more than preferring one style of clothing over another.

My answer is still the same, keeping in mind it is strictly my opinion, that there are more CDers whose foundation or basis for starting was sexual. Female breasts, hips, and legs are sexual objects for men. The proof of this is in the existence of a vast porn industry that is aimed at men. And I believe the brain becomes indelibly rewired when strong sexual connections are made during the teenage years and even if over time the sex drive or motive diminishes, there remains a very pleasant association with wishing to adopt a femme persona. I'm not saying this is true for everyone who puts on opposite gender clothing. It is certainly not true for transsexuals. But it is not too much of a stretch for me to believe that a strong sexual foundation can lead to, or help, a lifetime of enjoying the CDing, and that's not mentioning all of the CDers for whom the sexual aspect is still primary.

But I think you are making a serious mistake in this analysis because most crossdressers develop their habit years before puberty arrives. So while sexuality often becomes all consuming and ends up defining crossdressing for many, it is not the original cause.

There seems to be a divisive starting age. There are many TGs who begin before puberty at around age 3-5. There are, however, many more who begin at puberty, and even a few who begin in adulthood. I can't remember where I've read this, but at one point it was suggested that the earlier age would indicate a transsexual nature (even if it never reaches the point of getting SRS) while the later age is more indicative of crossdressing. Of course, if this is true it is not cast in stone and there would still be exceptions.

While transsexuality is about gender identity, crossdressing is about gender roles. Essentially it is about boys feeling uncomfortable about certain aspects of the adult male role in society and in personal relationships and seeking refuge by creating a female personality within himself to escape to in his fantasies which later on he recreates in real life by crossdressing. Boys are trying to evade aggressive and competitive traits that society tells them they must develop to succeed.

It is mostly boys with quiet, sensitive, introspective personalities who develop the notion that being a girl is a less stressful, safer, more comfortable, more fun way to live life. This makes boys secretly rebel against masculine indoctrination although they play along sufficiently well to fool people that they are becoming a fully fledged "real" man when it is just a facade from the start.

So the reason why female crossdressers are so rare is that female upbringing does not create the same pressures which makes girls want create a male alter ego to escape to. Women can be tomboys and access male roles and responsibilities if they wish while still maintaining a positive female gender role. Girls are not required to make a 180 degree turnaround in the gender roles instead adulthood is an extension of childhood gender.

Those are great points, thanks for bringing them up. I'll need to take the time to consider all of this.

There certainly are no easy answers since motives for CDing are tied to so many physical, psychological, and social variables. It is no wonder so many members here hate to define it for themselves!

I do wish there was more money available for research.

[abbykins]

I really like the thoughts in your post, Reine. I agree with you that a sexual foundation can lead to even non-sexual CDers. Given that, I'm only curious whether the numbers (FtM vs MtF) and methods (forms vs packing) match more closely, if CDers who started with a sexual basis are excluded. If only there were money for a study...

Off subject, I was just thinking about whether it would be right to wear forms if I was dressed but in male mode. I decided yes, because it's part of a feminine look and clothes are designed around having breasts.

[Sue101]

There seems to be a divisive starting age. There are many TGs who begin before puberty at around age 3-5. There are, however, many more who begin at puberty, and even a few who begin in adulthood. I can't remember where I've read this, but at one point it was suggested that the earlier age would indicate a transsexual nature (even if it never reaches the point of getting SRS) while the later age is more indicative of crossdressing. Of course, if this is true it is not cast in stone and there would still be exceptions.

Yes the ages differ but the numbers I have seen indicate most are pre-puberty. But even those who start at puberty or later in adulthood, it still is not initially driven by sexuality. Crossdressing does not begin with a boy or man picking up a piece of female clothing and thinking to himself that this is something he can use to get off on. Crossdressing is not a fetish, it is something quite different even though psychologists use the term fetishist, they are off-target.

There is a psychological attraction to the clothes that initially draws the man to pick them up and wear them in the first place. It is about imparting the feminine attribute the clothes represent onto himself which then changes how he thinks of himself and opens up the flood gates to feelings he cannot express as a man. The clothes - usually underwear - also have strong sexual connatations and so the experience quickly devolves into autoeroticism.

The sexual angle is not the first phase in the development of crosdressing behavior, there is a precursor need to connect with femininity which triggers the attratction and of course some don't go down the sexual route which I reckon usually indicates genuine transgederism (half male/female) in contrast to the more typical crossdresser's rebellion against masculine pressures via fantasizing which easily converts into autoeroticism. In time when the sexual drive diminishes the origins often reappear with a greater emphasis on culturing feelings and exploring female gender roles.

[ReineD]

Thanks Sue! Can you post a link to the studies you've read about the ages? I'd love to read them too.

[Sue101]

Reine

Mostly from ad hoc polls I have seen in many forums. Not scientific but the results are always the same. Here is one -

Age First Cross Dressed

Age Transvestites
(n = 63)
0- 10 73%
11-15 19%
16-20 2%
20-29 5%
50-59 2%


from http://www.susans.org/reference/comparst.html

[ReineD]

I googled it and interestingly enough, google returned a slew of threads here from across the years that discuss onset age. I don't have the time now to read them all, but one of them was pretty evenly mixed between early and later onset age. If you feel energetic, you might want to go through them all, do a physical count, and post the results here along with the links? I think this would be hugely useful to this conversation.

Unfortunately the clinical studies I find after a quick search (I don't have hours to devote to this right now), focus primarily on the age of onset of GID (as measured among transsexuals) and not of crossdressers, since I gather that most of the studies are done at GID clinics, and crossdressers do not seek help for GID. Also, they correlate age of onset with other things such as homosexuality. The other issue is that some of the studies are so small; one of them had a sample of only 28. The biggest issue of all is that I can't get past the abstracts. I'd have to get into a university journal library.

I wouldn't take the resource from susans.org as being definitive though, in light of the paucity of data available for the crossdressing segment that does not suffer from GID.

[Lorileah]

I am going to make up a statistic here, you can't see the bulge in men in everyday clothes 99% of the time and especially with the newer pants so packing isn't a huge issue in FtM. OTH most women have breasts that are visible (and are an integral part of appearance). I still hold that the reason you don't see as many FtM is that they don't feel the need to advertize to everyone. Dressing won't get them the money men make or the power men in business have, so why make your gender a bigger issue? And if you look at men in power, facial hair is not very common so pasting a beard on doesn't need to be a integral part of the scheme either. There are many stories of women who passed as men in war and even in the frontier. One was even a pirate so they are out there, they just are really good at having their own lives

[notquitegirl]

To Intertwined, 2SpeedTranny, and notquitegirl, I interpret "accepted by society" as meaning able to function normally in all situations. To explore this concept, consider a male donning a floral dress and walking into a masculine environment such as a bar with Harley-Davidsons parked in front. Unless he happened to be the size of Mongo he wouldn't last long. Now consider a woman donning a typical male outfit of leather jacket, jeans, and boots going into a feminine environment such as a beauty parlor. She might be considered "a bit edgy" but she certainly wouldn't be ostracized.

I used to think this is true, but the more time I spend out, the less I agree with it. I really think the vast majority of what we collectively perceive as social pressure is internalized shame, and if we let go of that we see most people are far too busy in their own heads to care about us or what we're doing.