Kicking at a dead horse

[Pythos]

I am honestly surprised how this statement seems to get applied to what for all intents and purposes is a very viable argument.

Why is the statement that men being blocked from wearing skirts AS MEN, while women can wear whatever style pants they wish is unfair, is considered an argument that is "kicking at a dead horse"?

I don't understand this. Is this thought prevalent because too many have given up?

Now, I am not talking about the argument that Full fem looking cds being blocked but women wearing pants are not being a moot argument, cause as sad as it it, it is in fact a dead argument. Women do not try to emulate men (though often times they do) when they wear pants.

But as I have stated, as far as I am concerned I am doing full on CDing when I put on breast forms, and tuck. Otherwise I am going either male or androgynous (and androgyny is a whole other can of worms...yet another thing women can do with little problems but a male...eh, not so much)

I have presented some male in skirts look here that are in no way tying to be anything BUT male. Turkey Jive on Rye does likewise.

The argument that it is not fair that women can wear pants but men cannot wear skirts because a very valid argument when taken in the context of men wearing skirts as men as demonstrated by the referred to pics.

I also really really really dislike the idea that men should be limited to kilts. NO WAY. Why is that in anyway fair when women can wear 100s of styles of pants, ranging from super spandex, to ultra baggy denim?

[RenneB]

I'm thinkin' it's just a culture thing. Ya know there are some religions here in the US that require all women and girls to wear dresses. We have a family just down the street. With all the neighborhood kids wearing jeans this group stands out a bit but they appear normal and play with the other kids just fine.

I'm thinkin' in time....say a hundred years or so.... it will be a good time to be a CD out in public as something has got to change.

Renne.....

[Kaitlyn Michele]

There is such an obvious difference between what most people think of cd'ing vs. men that would want to wear skirts "just because" that i believe it's you that is kicking the dead horse..

if you are truly just a guy that likes skirts as fashion, then wear them..outside of traditional crossdressing, very few guys want to wear skirts...i'm not sure what you are going on about.. do you think crossdressers somehow don't support men that just want to wear skirts?..

btw...my best friend doesnt tuck, doesnt wear breast forms but does completely dress and tries to blend in as a female..

[Pythos]

Kaitlyn, you missed the point of my post entirely.

Did you not see I was not refering to the full on cding?

Did you not see how at least to me, men CANNOT openly wear skirts as men and not face ridicule, laughter and a trip to the house of pain.

Recall, this is one of my posts, and reading it thoroughly may be required do to my horrible grammar.

[Sue101]

I doubt you will ever get a reasoned discussion on this because the issue has generated two opposing camps and a habit of putting fingers in ears and just repeating the prescribed mantra over and over again. I also have pointed out that when you compare like with like and use crossdressers who are not emulating women then the parrallel is undeniable which probably explains why nobody ever responds to the point.

In many ways it is a great example of the cold war that exists between those who want all the issues examined with complete honesty even if it makes some folks uncomfortable and those who wish to uphold conventions about normality Or maybe some people just are not interested in thinking too deeply and side with the conventional wisdom.

I actually think this is a very important issue to discuss because it places crossdressing into a social context rather than the current view that crossdressing is a separate deviant behavior that is not shared by others.

[JohnH]

Pythos,

Thanks for expressing my thoughts about how society disapproves of men wearing skirts or dresses AS men. I guess it must be this fragile "masculine anxiety" of how a man must be "manly"

In the past of course women who wore pants were really looked down on, even more than what I encounter when I wear a denim skirt with otherwise masculine clothing. At least I don't risk arrest the same way as women risked when they wore pants in the 1800's.

John

[Emma England]

It is a dead horse, as there is no problem with men wearing skirts.

I have done so often in summer when the weather is warm.

Look at my signature below - it is appropriate!

The only problem is in men's own heads.

[Sue101]

It is a dead horse, as there is no problem with men wearing skirts.

So men in skirts can expect no problems from their SOs, family or their employer?

That horse seems very much alive and kicking to me

[Nigella]

Why bother trying to flog this horse then. We are not the community who "frown upon men wearing skirts". Why try preach the rights and wrongs here, the only way to get your message to those who "ridicule" this lawful act, are those in the real world. Stop berating the TG community and get out and show that men can wear skirts.

[TGMarla]

You're absolutely right, Pythos. My dead horse reference was to the OP on that thread, not to your alternative argument that addresses men who openly wear skirts et al in male mode. When I dress, it's almost always in full female mode, whereas with you, you're wearing skirts without any attempt to disguise the fact that you're male. They are, indeed, two differing arguments. The "women are crossdressing when they wear pants and are hypocrites to object to our MtF crossdressing habits" argument is the dead horse.

[Joanne f]

Maybe one of the problems is that it is not what you are trying to sell but the audience that you are trying to sell to , i have made a long black wrap over skirt for myself to wear , so that is a plain black skirt even with the opening on the opposite side to that of a female one made by a man for a man ( although my wife might argue over that) so in theory i should be able to just put it on and walk down the street , so why do i feel uncomfortable doing that , OK i know you could say that i have TG issues (which i do) so it is my female side making me want to do that but there are many men who do not have this TG issue so why do they ALL not do it , because they are feeling that they are being judged.
The thing is that on here it is assumed that anyone who comes here has some sort of TG issues which is fair enough as you only have to look at the title of the site so any wife/so that comes here is going to automatically assume there is more to it that just wanting to wear a skirt and to be honest 9 times out of ten they are right which is were some of the acceptance issues stem from , ReineD once said something about a lot of CDs do not feel like they have acceptance of what they are doing unless they have full acceptance of the degree of what they want to do.
I wonder how many wives/SOs would look upon it in a different light if their partners agreed to the wearing of skirts only , i suspect more than the CDers who would agree to just that .

[AllieSF]

Why is the statement that men being blocked from wearing skirts AS MEN, while women can wear whatever style pants they wish is unfair, is considered an argument that is "kicking at a dead horse"?

Pythos, I will only address this question. I think that I understand what you are asking. But in interpreting what you have stated and asked I have to take a somewhat opposing opinion. I believe that over the years whether recently or over a much longer period of time, the fact that women can wear pants has progressed from something outside the time frame's norms to an accepted and liked women's fashion style with all of its variations. Thus, in my opinion, it has nothing to do with crossdressing however you want to define it and the issues associated with MtF dressing. It is comparing apples and oranges. So, to be continually bringing up this incorrect comparison, is just like "kicking a dead horse".

Since, as said above, men wearing skirts and/or other obvious female clothing and presenting as a male is rare, we should expect some type of surprise, questioning and resistance to tolerate and accept this by society. I do wish that this wouldn't happen, i.e. you could wear what you want and where you want with no negative reactions. However, that is not and will not be the case until more people do that out in public and the public begins to accept it without comment.

Regardless of the reasons that more men don't do that (fear of negative reactions or probably the most common reason, no desire to do that), the very small number of men that currently do that is probably just not large enough to really start to radically change the publics opinions of it. Right now, it is treated as just one of those small subset dressing cultures like androgyny, goth, grunge or whatever. If the style would really catch on with the masses of men, then you will start to see changes. I truly believe that those males wanting to wear skirts in male mode are in a very small minority.

That being said, instead of complaining about it, just continue do it like you seem to so successfully do. There is no one really "blocking" you from doing that except you and your internal fears of negative consequences, some real and maybe some not so real. Dress as you want and deal with the reactions to it, and adapt where necessary, which I also think that you do. I always believe that making positive comments and having a positive attitude will gain you more than a negative approach will. I dress as a woman, don't really pass, and don't really give a shit either. I have a positive attitude, am happy and look for the good side of things. ALL, and I repeat, ALL, of my outings dressed as a woman have been positive and fun with no true negative reactions. Surprises and curiosity, yes. I go out with a smile on my face, a positive curious attitude and have positive and happy experiences. Try that and forget about the negative stuff. It seems to me, and I say this as a neighbor and on line friend, that you dwell too much on the negative and too little on the positive.

[prettytoes]

I am one of those men that really enjoys wearing skirts. I think they are very comfortable, much cooler than shorts on hot days, and they just make me feel good to wear one. I do not try to come off as female, I have a mustache, tattoos, and a muscular, hairy chest. I generally do not use make-up (maybe on Halloween), wigs, or breast forms. I simply enjoy feminine clothing...satin panties and nighties, sport bras, skirts, sundresses, and yoga shorts for working out. I have to agree that it is not fair, but it is a "standard" as viewed by the general population. I do not go out in a skirt, as much as I would like to, because of the fear of ridicule, stares, laughing, and the like. I feel much more at home and comfortable in a short denim mini skirt, but cannot wear one all the time due to these silly "rules" imposed by society. Sometimes life just isn't fair.

[NathalieX66]

Kilts notwithstanding?
From time to time, I see weddings where the groom is wearing a kilt.

No, I don't believe it's a beating a dead horse issue for a guy to simply wear a dress without going full-on en femme. It is a cultural thing, nothing more.

[2SpeedTranny]

Why is the statement that men being blocked from wearing skirts AS MEN, while women can wear whatever style pants they wish is unfair, is considered an argument that is "kicking at a dead horse"?

I don't see myself as being "blocked" from it.

You're only a prisoner to convention so long as you choose to be.

I wear skirts as a guy, even to work. It's a matter of practicality -- less swamp crotch in the heat. No one stops me, and to date, not one single human being has told me I can't. Not that I would care if they did, mind you. I have a few smartass replies rolling around in my head for just such an occasion, and a little part of me is disappointed that I've never had to use them.

Hmmm... well, okay, my sister-in-law thinks I'm weird. But she lives 1,500 miles away and belongs to a cult, so the feeling is mutual. Big deal.

Anyway, Pythos, you live in the most gay-friendly, liberal, leftist, bleeding-heart communist city on the planet. Your take on the matter is surprising, to say the least. The only one holding you back is you, man!

[TxKimberly]

Hmm . . . .

OK, first of all I'd have to agree that it IS unfair that women can wear slacks and men cant wear skirts. Now having agreed with that point, there is more to be considered.

First and foremost, women went out on a limb and fought for that right. They fought for the right to be treated fairly and they fought for the right to dress as they pleased. When we are willing to stand up en-mass and do the same thing, THEN men will be able to wear skirts when they want to. When we are willing to accept the harassment and the ridicule the same way that women were treated when THEY started wearing pants . . .

The reason everyone considers this to be beating a dead horse is because unlike your post, most that raise the topic try and equate women wearing slacks to cross dressing and it clearly is not the same thing. While they might have back when women first started wearing slacks, no reasonable individual today can claim that a woman wearing slacks is cross dressing. Today, slacks are considered 100% appropriate for women - they are NOT wearing the clothing of the other gender.
In contrast, a man wearing a skirt or dress IS cross dressing by todays standards. We are clearly wearing garments intended for and only appropriate for, the opposite gender.
You can not put the two into the same box - it just doesn't work.

Personally I wouldn't want to see it common place dresses and skirts to be common attire for males. Frankly I enjoy them in part because they are intended for women. If we lived in a time where it was completely normal attire for men, it would be such a bummer!

[Cynthia Anne]

Phythos You have a good argument here! Yes I agree with you! We country girls have been burying our dead horses for hundreds of years! The same way this argument should of been, hundreds of years ago!

[JohnH]

I don't see myself as being "blocked" from it.

You're only a prisoner to convention so long as you choose to be.

I wear skirts as a guy, even to work. It's a matter of practicality -- less swamp crotch in the heat. No one stops me, and to date, not one single human being has told me I can't. Not that I would care if they did, mind you. I have a few smartass replies rolling around in my head for just such an occasion, and a little part of me is disappointed that I've never had to use them.

Hmmm... well, okay, my sister-in-law thinks I'm weird. But she lives 1,500 miles away and belongs to a cult, so the feeling is mutual. Big deal.

Anyway, Pythos, you live in the most gay-friendly, liberal, leftist, bleeding-heart communist city on the planet. Your take on the matter is surprising, to say the least. The only one holding you back is you, man!

Powerglide, I concur.

Today I went to a barbershop to get a haircut that could pass for a woman. I wore a denim skirt and women's sandals, and nobody cared what I had on. I was talking to a guy about cars, and he was a macho looking man with all kinds of tattoes and he was having his hair cut short. Yesterday I went to pick up my car from a auto repair shop while wearing a different denim skirt. Both days I went to Walmart afterwards. I have also worn skirts to community chorus rehearsals, along with makeup, a blouse-like Hawaiian shirt, and women's sandals, where I sing second bass.

I am in the Dallas area - almost like the buckle of the Bible Belt, and there are only a few people that give me a hard time for wearing skirts and dresses.

So I back off of my griping about how men cannot wear skirts and dresses.

John

[Pythos]

Well those last posts about successful wearings as males are encouraging.

[sissystephanie]

My late wife always did my makeup and fixed my wig when I went out as Stephanie, and I was completely passable.I have never been good at either makeup or fixing my wig, but with her help I did not need to! Then 6 years ago she died! How was I to go out as Stephanie? Well, I have been doing it. as a male Stephanie!! I dress totally enfemme, from skin out, but wear no wig or makeup. In plain english, I am a guy in a skirt or dress. I go everywhere dressed like that, and in the past almost 6 years have not had one single negative comment!! I have had numerous compliments on my feminine outfits, from both men and women!! Oh yes, I wear all kinds of skirts or dresses. But I wear clothes that are similar to what other ladies are wearing, not something like a drag queen would wear!! As long as you are decently clad, most people don't care what you have on.

This may get me in trouble, but I will say it anyway! Most of the problems with men wearing skirts is not with the general public!! It is with the men who are afraid to go out in public wearing a skirt!! if you wear it like you belong in it, very few people will say or do anything!! Those of us who do it all the time know that is a fact!!

[Billie Jean]

Amen Stephanie. I too go as a man wearing womens clothes that are not like something a drag queen would wear and I have never had anyone say something negative. I have had quite a few compliments on how well I co-ordinated my outfits. Billie Jean

[Babeba]

You're only a prisoner to convention so long as you choose to be.

I really liked this post!

Besides, who gets to decide what 'conventional' is, anyway? It's really only something changed by action.

[Intertwined]

So men in skirts can expect no problems from their SOs, family or their employer?

That horse seems very much alive and kicking to me

Well, lets see, 4 days ago, my employer had the Employee of the year ceremony, which I was one of the nominees, I am a 50 year old Male, 6 ft 2 in, in farely decent shape, I went to the awards ceremony, got up on stage in front of about 400 co-workers, and shook hands with the CEO, wearing, a white mens dress shirt, black tie, black pencil skirt, arguile tights & black 5 inch high heel dorsey pumps, I have had no ridicule so far, and nothing but interesting questions, example, today a co-worker came up to me and asked where I get shoes so large, she has a sister that is a basket ball player, and she can't find shoes to fit her feet, I told her where to find them... I will go and try to post one of the picks in the photo gallery right now

[Pythos]

Intertwined, you also noted in picture thread post here that when you informed your employer you were transgendered that they said you could not dress. Now if this ridiculous double standard did not exist, and men could wear skirts as men, do you think such a request from an employer would be needed? I give you props for going to such a gathering in the attire you did, however is this the first time you have done such? What if any effect has this had at your job?

I really would like to know that my skirted styles would not lead to my losing that which I have worked so hard for, The FAA can really ruin someone's life.

[christine55]

I would imagine that sooner or later the courts will rectify the situation. Who knows, there are so many other areas where they seem to obviously ignore the constitution regarding individual rights and the law. "may I look in your car?"