But it's really cool! Really, really fast cars are so f***ing much FUN! Dropping the hammer on a big Detroit V8 occasionally isn't like owning an F-350 pickup and commuting 60 miles each way, you know.Originally Posted by suit
Plus, Pythos invoked the patriotism card. Weren't you just a little bit proud that the Cadillac CTS-V kicked butt on the Jag, Beamer and even the MB AMG?
Reine - the article says this "In the United States there are varying estimates of the prevalence of crossdressing. Most conservative estimates are in the range of 2% to 5% of all adult males engage in routine crossdressing (1:50 to 1:20)." The numbers you were quoting were for transsexuals and transgenderists.
For a simple idea of numbers, you can estimate the number of ts:cd in this forum - that would easily give you 1:100 then add in the hundreds of sites which cater only for crossdressers and the multiplier becomes several hundred.
Last edited by Sue101; 05-31-2011 at 03:08 PM.
I want to be judged for who I am not what I am. Thank you for listening.
I'll point out a big thing about teens here: Most "go along to get along" & the idea of standing out of the crowd terrifies them, for fear of peer rejection, and happens regardless of anything gender-related. Now ask any TG person aware of it at that age how they acted in their teens, I don't think many would have been open.
But of course, if you're truly committed, you could just give it all up & take on the manly life of the Lumberjack
Last edited by Fab Karen; 05-31-2011 at 06:04 PM.
[SIZE="3"]Gender is a state of mind[/SIZE]
LGBTQ PRIDE
As of Oct. 5th, go here to see my pics:http://www.flickr.com/people/fab_karen/
A Yankee Doodle T-Girl
proud of my President
I never wanted to do this in the first place. I never wanted to strap myself in a glamorized metal crate with wings and go up into the air without inflicting serious personal harm. I didn't really care about seeing the ground from a perch above the ground. I wanted to be,
A LUMBERJACK!!!!
"I am not altogether on anyone's side as no one is all together on my side"
Tree beard. Lord of the Rings, The Two Towers.
U only have to examine the number of posts in THIS forum!
And, the number of dressers that OBJECT to GGs dressing in "male" garb! If anything, they seem to be INCREASING!
Is it any wonder that the vanilla public objects to CDs dressed that way?.gif "Big Roll Eyes")
U can't keep doing the same things over and over and expect to enjoy life to the max. When u try new things, even if they r out of your comfort zone, u may experience new excitement and growth that u never expected.
Challenge yourself and pursue your passions! When your life clock runs out, you'll have few or NO REGRETS!
Great insights all. Our diversity is what makes us strong, and as has been said, it's the right to wear what we want, wether it's a pair of jeans, a skirt, long hair, whatever, without discrimination or fear. Being a "Guy" comes with a lot of rules, colors you can wear, how you cut your hair, the clothes you choose, the car you drive, the music you like. Stultifying, inhibiting, some might say oppressive, but others find it comforting. No need to worry about what to wear, what to say, what to drive, it's all been worked out for you. I hate to say, most people don't think too much, nor do they question themselves. I work in a small segment of the fashion industry, and most women are as afraid of color as most men, from what I've experienced. Freedom and self expression are difficult things. The willingness to step out of the prescribed channel can be one filled with terror. I know I've experienced it. So I try to move along, push the limits a small bit at a time. I don't begrudge nor look down upon those that conform. Not at all. I love seeing real cowboys - manly men with big trucks and big muscles. That's simply not me. But I love having them around to move furniture.
Great points Pythos, and I also want to thank you for allowing me to insert your quote into my original premise.
I'm picking on your comment above. I think it's a valid observation based on perception but at the same time, I do think you are slightly off the mark. What you describe is a function of parenting more than mere socialization. There are many parents out there who simply don't have a clue and allow, even encourage, misbehavior under a guise of "boys will be boys".
Taking it a step further, I'll insert my own experience in this area. One of my little girls avoids skirts and dresses, yet she is as classically feminine as can be otherwise. She adores her long beautiful hair, she dresses very girly otherwise, loves makeup, dolls, all of those things that one might think of when describing typical socialization for a young girl. Yet none of these cues were taught per se. It is simply part of her being. Contrast this with her younger sister who is nearly identical in interests yet she loves wearing skirts and dresses.
I'm no expert in the field of child development or the factors which go into the socialization of females vs males but I can say this, even if observation or media exposure plays into this, both girls appear to be as naturally in their element as can be. And on top of that, they love getting dirty and can roughhouse together beyond belief.
Reine, you have brilliantly expanded on the essence of the premise that I have laid out. Thank you for taking the time to do so!!!In direct contradiction to Pythos, I have to say that we do live in a gender binary world and I don't see it disappearing, no matter how much we, as members of this community, (which I also consider myself a part of through my association with my SO), would wish it were otherwise.
If the gender divide were caused by an overly strict and stereotypical gender socialization mechanism and if it did not sit well with most of these male-socialized men, believe me there would be a much greater segment of the male population wishing to break free from it in adulthood. The internet expands everyone's choices and memberships in forums such as this one would increase 1,000 fold. And then there would be no need for them since we would all be androgynous.
Nothing will ever take away the fact that most boys want to be boys and most girls want to be girls (even if said girls wear blue jeans). It is not a stupid notion. It is simply a fact of life.
The best we can hope for is a broader recognition and acceptance of gender and sexual diversity, which can only be achieved through more research, media exposure, changing laws, and widespread education. But if or when this should ever happen, I seriously doubt it will make the testosterone laden men want to wear skirts as a fashion statement, although perhaps a few men who are more on the culturally creative edge might want to wear them to keep cool in the summer.
And if perchance skirts were to find their way into the mainstream, there would be just as great a difference between male and female styles as to make guys want to not wear the girly skirts that M2F TGs would continue to want to wear. The gender fashion divide would be the same as it is now, even though fashion will have continued it's evolution process as it always has.
It's not about whether T is the source. You are simply describing the natural order of things. As you say, it is life...technically it's about survival of the fittest and procreation of the species.
And I'm not here to completely dismiss the behavior of what can be called the typical male. I accept it for what it is while calling out the boorish extremes.
No bravery here, such a term is reserved for our millitary whether they be male, female or even TG. My thread is not an attack on masculinity but rather social commentary as this relates to acceptance of things that are TG and/or androgynous in nature. However, we all know that the freedom we enjoy in our country, including the safety we enjoy and the right to present as many of us do in the real world, are all things we can thank our millitary for, something we should all think about daily rather than just on special days set aside to honor our troops (both active and those who have fallen in the line of duty).
I have seen the world you describe and in all honesty feel blessed that I don't live in it. The freedom of expression without incident (knocking on wood here) is partially a function of living in a major metropolitan area, one where I am one of millions (reducing the chance of running into someone I know) and where I can easily travel a short distance to better the odds of my remaining anonymous...yet still safe at the same time.
While the TG existence can be a royal pain in the you-know-what, I too cherish my POV to the point where I often look at the "typical" male and feel pity for them. Yet at the exact same time, i can also look at the kind of man that I might wish I could be, one without the gender issues going on, with envy. This is part of my original point, that guys just don't give any thought whatsoever to the stuff that goes on in our world.[SIZE="2"]...I’m glad I’m on the other side, away from all this manliness, safe in the knowledge that there are other ways to BE. An individual must always be on guard against falling back upon pre-determined behavior that the majority agrees is correct – true bravery is reaching for, or attaining, this blessed acceptance of a state that is diametrically at odds with the male mindset…
[/SIZE]
Great points Gina. This is basically what I was describing in talking about my girl's behavior. There are things that are innate and I too am not wanting to envision a world where the genders are seen as the same.
However, gender discrimination and how we express ourselves needs not be an issue forever. This is where education and tolerance comes into play. We're certainly not trying to change others ability to be who they are. Rather, we wish to simply be accepted for who we are.
Like a corpse deep in the earth I'm so alone, restless thoughts torment my soul, as fears they lay confirmed, but my life has always been this way - Virginia Astley, "Some Small Hope" (1986)
Sunlight falls, my wings open wide. There's a beauty here I cannot deny - David Sylvian, "Orpheus" (1987)
Well, according to the bible, God made men from dirt. He took a rib from man to make a woman perfect. As to why I enjoy being a girl, well I want to be perfect too and its fun. As long as no one is a Buffalo Bill like in Silence of the Lambs. Now that would be creepy.
"But it's really cool! Really, really fast cars are so f***ing much FUN! Dropping the hammer on a big Detroit V8 occasionally isn't like owning an F-350 pickup and commuting 60 miles each way, you know.
Plus, Pythos invoked the patriotism card. Weren't you just a little bit proud that the Cadillac CTS-V kicked butt on the Jag, Beamer and even the MB AMG?
"I'd like to see General mopters or Dodge put a http://www.vengeancepower.com/specs.aspx
moer in ther trucks and get 80 miles per gallon and put out 2500 ft lbs of torque!
Write this down on a piece of paper, put it somewhere safe, and read it again in twenty years.
Some of the discussions elsewhere have brought me back to this thread. Androgyny, closets, social agendas, etc. Some of this was talked about here but there is another recent thread where the protagonist described being out in a decidedly feminine outfit, yet topped it all off with a handlebar mustache and (thankfully) no makeup.
As many may have surmised in reading my writings, I have some struggles when it comes to the guy-in-dress look. I was looking for insight by inclusion of this comment....
While I strive for inclusion across our entire community, those out and in the closet, those who identify as TS, CD and everywhere in-between, I admittedly struggle with this guy-in-dress concept when it speeds past the androgynous or utilitarian approach. Call me hypocritical but at the very least I'm being honest, and willing to attempt understanding of this concept as difficult as it might be.
Part of my POV was shaped by meeting someone at our support group a few years back. This person pretty much presented as female the first couple times we met. Then one meeting, "he" shows up (there's a reason I use "he") in a canary yellow ball gown, no makeup, stubble on the face, no wig and loads of chest hair poking out the top of the bodice of the dress. During the rounds where everyone can talk for a moment about whatever, he basically says "I'm a guy in a dress and no longer wish to be called by a femme name. I will no longer wear makeup, wig, etc.". Needless to say we were all pretty much taken aback yet the kicker was that he claimed that his look somehow blended in with societal norms.
Of course I was absolutely incredulous at this point and being my first experience with a genderf*%# presentation, it shaped a lot of my POV in that I believe that those of us who choose to go out have an obligation to do so in a manner respectful not only of women but also for those who are transitioning and must deal with public scrutiny 24/7.
The way I see it, androgyny doesn't conflict with this POV but genderf*%# most certainly does.
Many in these pages may present in such a manner in the comfort of their own closet ...er, home, for a multitude of reasons. Namely, their male side (or others in their lives) demands that they keep facial hair, or whatever. They do what makes them happy without much worry about going out into the world which of course is fine. Any TG who goes into the world and is read as such (most of us who venture out would fall into this category) is technically in conflict with societal norms, yet genderf*%# takes this to an entirely different level.
All that said, I'll repeat my question to those who present in public as a guy-in-dress, do any of these bigger social agenda type of goals apply to your situation? In other words, is your POV influenced by other causes within the TG community, androgyny or even issues concerning natal women.
For those who champion androgyny, is there a line to be crossed here or are we all in the same gender-boat, merely expressing the same thing in different ways?
For the women out there, do any or all of these presentations offend your sensibilities or am I reading too much into things?
Like a corpse deep in the earth I'm so alone, restless thoughts torment my soul, as fears they lay confirmed, but my life has always been this way - Virginia Astley, "Some Small Hope" (1986)
Sunlight falls, my wings open wide. There's a beauty here I cannot deny - David Sylvian, "Orpheus" (1987)
I can see your stance when it comes to that guy. The image he presented was a mockery. Reason being, even in Male mode, no dress, no other feminine wear, just a "regular joe", it is socially unacceptable for a man to have chest hair protruding from his clothing, and I will bet on this guy with this dress, it was just.....GUH. What became of this fellow anyway?
These are images I think of when it comes to androgyny.
Though a bit daring.
Rocker look
and me with hair too short, but in a usual outfit.
Now this one is not publicly acceptable, but it is androgynous.
Turkey Jive on Rye is also a very good example, as is Eddie Izzard,
Got to flickr and search Androgyny. There are several GOOD examples of it.
Last edited by Pythos; 06-16-2011 at 10:53 AM.
"I am not altogether on anyone's side as no one is all together on my side"
Tree beard. Lord of the Rings, The Two Towers.
I don't see my male side, what there is of it, as a darkside. It is a part of the whole which constitutes me. I can not carelessly disgard it nor ignore that part of myself. I'll admit it isn't easy trying to balance both halfs and sometimes they come in conflict with eachother. It is not easy to keep both sides of the scale from tettering one way or the other but I try because I know that somewhere inbetween lies the peace that I so desperately seek. I know that it is not a short trip that I have embarked upon but a journey that will take me all the days of my life.
I do not seek acceptance, nor do I require it from others. It is more important that I accept myself. The rest will come in its own time.
Freedom is a matter of perception. It is more a condition of mind than an actual physical state. What binds us from being who we are is often an internal problem rather than an external one. We are often prisoners, inmates of penitentiaries made from hardened steel and stone, winthin our own minds. The elusive key to our freedom must be found from within not without.
In other, more simple terms: "FREE YOUR MIND...YOUR ASS WILL FOLLOW!"
And while it is true that we have to live in a world, which we did not create, it doesn't mean that we need to conform to it's bidding by becoming what the world wants. Resist the tempation. Become who you are instead.
"WHO YOU ARE"? Well... that is for you to figure out.
Just like you. I am a work in progress.
CANCER IS A BITCH SO YOU HAVE TO BE MORE OF A BITCH TO BEAT IT.
Here is a relevant essay from one of my favorite transgender theorists and musicians, Terre Thaemlitz:
All's In Order
"Out of Order" Fashion's Inability to Divest of Power
http://www.comatonse.com/writings/allsinorder.html
Like Dawn Marrie, I do not necessarily seek respect from others when I go out. I do try, however, to seek an acceptance - however grudging - from the public. I feel I do this by dressing modestly, normally (as I present, at least), and tastefully. I want them to see the effort put into it. I want them to see that this isn't a joke. I want them to see that we're just normal human beings, and not an in-your-face version of a gender outlaw.
Yes, I'm not a boat-rocker. I never have been. I feel that you can change more opinions with an honest portrayal of yourself, rather than a "Who the hell cares what you think!?" attitude. I do, of course, allow for the case that I am wrong in this respect, but that's just how I am.
Kathi
[SIZE="3"]Society tells boys to be G.I. Joe, a football stars, macho movie tough guys, macho boxers, yada yada yada. Society needs warriors to survive in this dog eat dog world, with a history written in blood, sweat, and tears. We, who dress up, will always be the small minority, and despised for the most part. Though, it is not as hostile, as years ago, society, overwhelmingly still thinks men crossdressing is perverse. I just saw on the National Enquirer, cover, a photo of Anthony Weiner crossdressed, in 1982. One radio talk host I like, sadly was bashing Weiner for it. Yada yada yada. The beat goes on.[/SIZE]
I haven't been very active on this forum lately, but I check in from time to time and it was funny to me that this was the most recent thread today when I loaded it up, so I figured I'd throw my own two cents into it.
To note my own style, I will admit I have been veering a bit more androgynous lately, but I do think that I can still pretty securely refer to myself as a guy in a dress/skirt. Even though I wear a lot more makeup these days, and yes I've been learning to accessorize with necklaces and bracelets and fashionable belts, I still feel like when people look at me, there's never a moment of doubt in them as to my biological sex. I also do usually have a bit of stubble on my face, because that's just the nature of my facial hair. I can downplay it with a little bit of extra foundation, but it's hard to really hide it unless I wanted to pile on concealer, which I don't want to to.
I think the difference between me and the canary yellow mustachioed man you referred to Sarah, is that I personally really try hard to put together looks that work for me. I also don't like the philosophy of genderf@$% because I personally feel like even in the very name it is being combative. The fact that we can't type the name on this forum without putting in symbols to cover some of the letters speaks to that. I personally try to be as open and welcoming as possible when I dress the way I do, because I feel like being defensive and putting up shields is only going to reinforce the desire for people to pull back.
Now, there have been some points made in this thread about how unlikely it is that the mass pop culture will shift over to allow for more femininity in males, and more embracement of androgyny and the loss of the gender binary. I personally don't think we ever will lose the gender binary, but that also isn't my goal. I don't have any problem with people seeing me as male. I just want people to expand their idea about what a man can or cannot wear.
I think that's happening in slow, small pieces. I don't expect to see men's skirts as a mainstream fashion choice any time soon, but just looking at the ways gender norms have softened in my lifetime, I remember when I was a kid, guys were starting to wear earrings, but there was this whole weird unwritten rule where a boy could have an earring in only one ear, and depending on which ear they had it in, it meant he was straight or gay. Then when I was in high school and older, I noticed more and more guys would just have both ears pierced. Recently when I was home for christmas, my brother noticed that his son had pierced ears and asked him, a little loudly, "Why do you have an earring in your left ear?" and everyone looked at him (my brother) like he was crazy. It's been so common for years for guys to have earrings that it was weird for him to be put off by it. (He was drunk, which is a whole other story...)
Another example is cosmetics. It used to be unheard of for men to use skincare products and such, and now places like Sephora and Bath and Body Works have whole men's sections, including even things that have different names but seem an awful lot like makeup. Foundations and coverups mostly. But even when I'm not wearing women's clothes, I can walk up to a makeup counter at department stores and start looking at eyeliners and such and I've yet to have a salesgirl act like it is anything but typical. Granted, I live in LA, but I have gotten eyeliner applied at Sephora in other cities like my hometown of Columbus, OH.
These are both pretty minor things, but at the same time, feel sort of major to me in how they're just commonplace parts of today's society. Going back to the earring example, my nephew had no idea what his dad was talking about because he's never lived in a world where it was crazy for a guy to have earrings in both ears. The same as my niece has only ever seen digital cameras so she doesn't know you didn't used to be able to immediately see a picture after it was taken by turning the camera around. So while skirts for men would be a tough sell on today's teenage boys, if they became even a fringe trend in five years, imagine ten years after that, the crop of teenagers at that time would just be aware of skirts being a choice for the male wardrobe, and take it for granted that it's an unusual choice, not unlike girls born today with their choice of pants.
Here's the part where I rattle some feathers. One thing that often bugs me on this board when people talk about how I dress, whether it's specifically targeted at me, or as is more often the case, just talking about it as a general philosophy, is this whole idea of whether or not Middle America and Small Towns will accept it. I know they don't. But they don't accept you either. You know what you will never hear a small minded, bigot say? "Well I ain't got me no problem with them there crossdressers if'n they at least make an effort to pass an' conform to these here gender binaries."
I'll say it, the vast, vast majority of crossdressers do not pass as women. I'm not saying they don't look beautiful, or that they shouldn't dress the way they do, because of course you should, but more often than not, crossdressers look like crossdressers. Many are passable in photos, heck, *I* look passable in some photos, but take away the specific lighting, the lack of motion, the perfect posing, etc, and I become a man in a dress again, who just happens to be wearing a wig and heavier makeup. I've gone out to my share of transgendered events and also just seen CDs out and about in public, and unless someone was naturally blessed with a feminine look, or in the case of true TS women, if they transitioned early enough that they were able to balance out the hormones, actually passing is rare.
My point in saying this is, on this board MtF CDers accept themselves as something more common because on this board a CD is surrounded by like-minded individuals and to be sure, in society as a whole, the MtF is the majority of our minority, the most populous, most common group under the "transgender" continuum is the male to female crossdresser. But going back to the original post,
Sarah, you mentioned that you can't imagine that aggressive man going to walmart to buy a skirt. I think most people wouldn't imagine guys they know spending an hour on makeup and putting in breast forms and shaving their legs and putting on a dress to feel like a woman, yet the massive numbers and the multiple walks of life we have on this board make a pretty strong case that it happens quite a lot.
I've personally seen plenty of aggressive alpha male types in kilts, guys who couldn't be more macho yet wearing a type of skirt. It's not common, sure, but it happens and it's a growing trend. Do a google search for Utilikilt images, and you'll find tons of "macho" guys in skirts.
Last edited by Nigella; 06-16-2011 at 01:42 PM. Reason: Please read the rules regarding posting pictures of non members
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~Riley
Check out my trans themed standup on YouTube!
My Tumblr Blog
I live in nyc and see just about everything, but i've never seen this.
must be a midwest anglo/scottish thing?
usually the only men i see in skirts are super femme gay queens, androgynous queer artsy hipster boys, or masculine yet fastidious gay men more of a marc jacobs style skirt.
and bagpipers.
i don't see the point of searching for men with kilts - it's more meaningful to search for "men" on google and count the number of pages until you find one in a skirt
Last edited by Nigella; 06-16-2011 at 01:43 PM. Reason: Edited quote
[SIZE="2"]We are all crossdressing, to one degree or another, and we are all thrown into the same boat by this generalized association. Clashes are inevitable between fractious groups, based on what he or she believes crossdressing either entails or represents. Sure, I champion androgyny, but I also champion “crossing the line,” as you so eloquently stated, as long as I’m allowed to cross this imaginary line MY way, on MY terms, according to MY level of comfort. I do this to feel good, so anything that may degrade this blessed state is consciously avoided. I think ALL forms of expression are valid and need to be encouraged, but I do not think we all have to agree on what expression IS. To each his or her own, and please respect other ways of being…[/SIZE]
[SIZE="2"]I’m not a GG*, but I get the feeling that our “presentations” do offend female sensibilities – This is based on what I read on this site, either coming from GG’s directly, or indirectly through an injured or deflated MtF crossdresser. Some people forget that dreams are highly perishable…For the women out there, do any or all of these presentations offend your sensibilities or am I reading too much into things?
*But I PLAY one as a TV!!![/SIZE]
Turkey JIVE on Rye knocks one right out of the park!!!
Society will never change, unless something changes it.
"I am not altogether on anyone's side as no one is all together on my side"
Tree beard. Lord of the Rings, The Two Towers.
But does it have to change at the speed of a meteor hitting the Earth, or can it just be as sure of the change that a glacier makes on the land (and no - the speed analogy is not lost on me)? I would rather try to persuade rather than force. That's the way I liken those two methods.
Kathi
There will be a time, in the future. Things do change, but this can only happen at the pace that society can accept. The more anyone tries to push a change on society, the more society pushes back, rejecting that change.Turkey JIVE on Rye knocks one right out of the park!!!
Society will never change, unless something changes it
.
Listen carefully to what is said, quite often you can hear what is not being said
The joy of correcting a mistake can bring pain to another
I don't deny that the vast majority of alpha male guys I've seen in kilts have been at celtic festivals and rock concerts, yes. Guess what though, that's where I first started publicly wearing kilts as well, before eventually moving on to other skirts. I think too it's even more of a pacific northwest type thing, as that's where Utilikilts is based out of and has somewhat of a following.
Seems you're missing the point here, which is, you do see men in skirts. I was never arguing the case that all men in skirts need be super masculine, I'm certainly not. You named three different types of men in skirts here. Regardless of their sexuality, can we agree that these groups of men were not wearing skirts ten years ago? Even if you've only seen a handful or less, is that not still a significant change in the cultural landscape of male garments? Taking away the narrow focus on the "skirt" aspect, in general would all of these groups not be considered as paving the way for a broader approach to what constitutes a "male" in today's society?usually the only men i see in skirts are super femme gay queens, androgynous queer artsy hipster boys, or masculine yet fastidious gay men more of a marc jacobs style skirt.
Is it more meaningful? I guess it would be if the point was about how mainstream skirts for men are or aren't, but it wasn't. The point was, Sarah mentioned a specific type of man, the overly aggressive masculine man, and said she can't imagine him wearing a skirt, ever. I then used the specific example of the Utilikilt as a brand that markets to and appeals to exactly that kind of man.i don't see the point of searching for men with kilts - it's more meaningful to search for "men" on google and count the number of pages until you find one in a skirt
However, just for the heck of it, I decided to do this search you recommended. It was the last photo on page 6, two guys in kilts. and that's mostly because there were quite a bit of X-Men pictures, mostly wolverine, and also a lot of photos of the cast of Mad Men on the previous pages. It should be noted however that on the very first page were two different photos of men wearing noticeable makeup.
-------------------------------------------------
~Riley
Check out my trans themed standup on YouTube!
My Tumblr Blog
I used to participate on a hiking forum, and several of the guys there wore them. If you went and stood on the AT for a week, you could probably count 3-4 guys hiking in kilts.
I've also seen them at a club I used to go to being worn by very dominant looking guys.
There is only one type of presentation that offends my sensibilities: the representation of woman as purely a sexual object. By this, I mean the CDers who sexualize the CDing in public. You know the type: short, short skirts, stilettos, fish nets, plunging necklines. Not in private, mind you, this is fair game.
That said, I am not offended by models/actresses who show up on the red carpet showing off their curves, or women who go out clubbing this way. There is a time and place for everything, and they know how to do this. Also, if a woman chooses to source herself from her sexuality (providing she can pull it off), if she feels this is the only way she can get ahead in this world, then it is her decision to do so, even though I choose to not live my life this way.
But when a man adorns himself in such a way, it brings in an entirely different layer and this is his own objectification of women, which I find creepy somehow. I imagine any GG being in a relationship with someone like this, and in the bedroom she would be a mere accessory to his fetish. I do not enjoy being objectified by men.
I have no issues with CDers who dress appropriately for the various social situations (and if it means dressing in a sexy manner in a nightclub, then fine as long as they know how to do it) or androgynes/goths/insert-other-genres-here who choose to be creative with their presentation.
Double standard? Maybe.
If I see a guy such as the one you describe: the hairy guy with a beard in the yellow ball gown (the subtype is called "gender-f*ck" you can find it in the gender section of wikipedia), I'm not offended. I don't think he's mocking women either. I rather wonder why he would choose to put himself on display like this, since his presentation is bound to ostracize him in our society. Just like someone who would choose to walk around with green face paint with horns and a tail, or any other look that would be just as far off the scale. I would see him as someone who doesn't care to live in society the way that I do, and form relationships with people. A loner. I wouldn't write him off though. I'd engage in a conversation with him and then see, but if he has such a "f*ck it" attitude, then it would be bound to show up in other areas as well.
I'm not at all offended by presentations such as Jive-Turkey-On-Rye (did you have to pick such a long name? lol). Jive pulls it off very well!
This answer ended up being much longer than I had originally intended, once I started typing. lol
Reine
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