Sophie,
I hope you got you wanted from this thread... it has certainly helped me in my journey! Take care xx
Sophie,
I hope you got you wanted from this thread... it has certainly helped me in my journey! Take care xx
Kaz xx
__________________________________________________ ____________
This Woman Within is Flying without Wings
Presh, please understand that I am VERY aware that wives have feelings and hearts. You are, however, making the assumption that CDers are all entering into their marriages with full understanding of their CDing and maliciously misleading their spouses.Originally Posted by Presh GG
Many of us did not fully understand our own feelings at that point and it is unfair to label us liars.
Before I was married, I knew that I had an interest in women's things but other than trying on panties a few times (and feeling ashamed for it) I did not act on my feelings. I did not tell my wife about this because I considered it to be a very personal anomaly, like a woman might consider one of her breasts being larger than the other.
Unfortunately, marriage did not fix the situation as I hoped. In fact it made it worse, but at that point I was already committed, and I take my commitments seriously. I did the best I could, avoided anything CD related as much as I could, and tried to be the good husband my wife married. I submerged my feelings in other activities.
Go forward 20 years. Something happened, perhaps male menopause, perhaps my daughters growing up, or perhaps something I don't yet understand. In any case, I felt a greater need to explore CDing. It wasn't something I could bury any more or keep completely separate from my wife as it was affecting my mental state and therefore our relationship.
There was no specific moment at which this occurred. I knew that we should have "the talk" but before we did that I felt that I had to understand more about myself. I therefore passed up quite a number of opportunities and chose to keep my wife in the dark for the time being. I didn't do this to hurt my wife, I did it to maximize the chance of an outcome that would cause the least pain to us both.
Finally, after doing quite a bit of research I finally screwed up my courage and we went through the painful discussion. I feared the worst since I thought that she would automatically see me as a pervert as experience shows that many GGs do.
I shouldn't have feared this as my wife is a reasonable person, but fear is not always rational. She realized that my love for her had not changed. Rather than looking for ways to punish me, she helped me to understand myself better. I'm still the same guy she married, but I have a "new" interest that I can explore more freely. Rather than tearing us apart, this shared secret brought us closer together.
So, while I do feel responsible for keeping my wife in the dark for quite some time, the reason that I did so was compassionate. If I had sprung it upon her the moment that I had a inkling of being a CDer then both of us would have been ignorant and the learning curve would have been more difficult for us both. I am not the deceitful person that you and many other GGs seem to think that all CDers are if they fail to disclose before marriage for whatever reason.
I hope that you can grasp this. Every CDer has a different story because we are all different people. There are selfish, inconsiderate, lying CDers, but that really has little to do with CDing. If these people weren't CDers they would be equally selfish, inconsiderate, lying "normal" people.
I would also like to address your concept that CDers knowingly mislead our spouses until they are "no longer young and able to start over." Do you honestly believe that a 25-year-old groom is thinking "I've got her now, but I'll wait 20 years before I spring the CDing on her so she'll be trapped."? If so, you are vastly overestimating the long-term planning ability of twentysomethings!
Eryn
Eryn,
That is a great answer!
Eryn, Very well written. You made some very valid points. My guess is that the majority of CDers experienced the same thought process considering what little information was available back in 1970 or there abouts. Most of us had no idea what this whole dressing up thing was about. We might have heard the term transvestite by then, but that sounded so perverted to most of us. We had not heard terms like transgendered or even cross dresser back then. Those terms came much later and I suspect the INTERNET helped to at least bring those terms out to the public. For me, I started to find out I was not alone with this at age 27 when I told the first person I ever told, my then fiancée. I remember that being one of the hardest things I ever had to do up until then. She had the typical shock, fear nd pain first. That was followed by the usual questions; do you want a sex change,, are you gay etc. In a matter of a week or two, we were able to calmly talk about it. It was like we learned about it together since I did not have all the answers she wanted or needed. The point is, it was a totally different era then this new millennium.
Sophie86,
Fine....I'm done.
I tried.
Just as you don't want :
".......in having this intermediate stage in which she excoriates him for the years of deception, and he bends over backwards trying to apologize, only to find out that in the end, she just can't accept living with a crossdresser."
I don't want to be your whipping girl for all you think is wrong in the world.
Last edited by Momarie; 06-07-2011 at 05:05 PM.
[SIZE="4"]Momarie[/SIZE]
It seems after reading this thread that with very few exceptions after a cd reveals the "lie" or "omission" or the "secret" most of the wives are also more than willing to keep such lie omission or secret just that. They have the same fears of rejection from those they know and love as the husband did in the beginning.
Just an observation.
I agree! It was very well written.
I am sooo glad that this thread moved on from some of the very hurtful and incendiary generalizations and venting in the first page or so... I didn't comment a few days ago because honestly, the way many of the first responses and to some extent the OP were phrased I found incredibly demoralizing and painful to read. I understand that many of these things get thrown into sexist humour and while that's not my cup of tea, I do try to leave others' humour alone; but to see so many all together made me feel very low, especially as I know very few women (if any) who fit any of those stereotypes. I really am not surprised that Momarie jumped in on behalf of GGs and although the words were not as I would have chosen, I appreciate her protective sentiments.
I think that to me, the important part about any close relationship is being able to really and truly know the person I am with - to lay myself bare and to have them laid bare for me, warts and all. I am not the type of person who deals very well with important omissions or lies. I could deal with omissions from friends but not lovers or spouses, because to me by the time I have reached that level of intimacy I hope to have known that already. But one thing this thread has really shown - with Eryn and with Sophie sharing their stories - that each and every person and relationship is different, and has a different path both in front of and behind them.
I had an interesting talk the other day with my best friend. He doesn't know about Crystal but our talk about cars switched into talking about transgenderism. He told me he would never be attracted to a crossdresser (any femininity really turns him off) so I asked him if he would be alright with ever having a relationship with a transman, or if he found out years later that his partner was actually born female and never told him how he would react... he would be fine with that, so basically the fundamental opposite about how I feel about trans issues and secrecy. Different people simply have different reactions sometimes; this is probably part of the reason why some spouses are okay right away and others have issues dealing with revelations years later.
Someone had brought up the idea that not telling about crossdressing would be like hiding going out bowling with the guys and drinking. I think this analogy could be taken a little further to be more accurate.
Let's say that a couple is part of a large religion that almost everyone in town is part of where the norm is to not drink; let's say they're practicing Mormons living in a small town in Utah or up in Southern Alberta. They grew up not drinking. They recognise that other people drink, and it's not a big deal, but they're Mormon and so they don't. Never have, and it wouldn't occur to them to try anything different. The wife (or the husband, if you prefer) didn't bring up alcohol before they got married because it's just not something that would occur to them to come up in their relationship as they thought their spouse was just like every other Mormon that way. Years down the line, the husband (or wife, in our second scenario) realises that his (or her) late night parties he thought he had got over long ago - that he (or she) thought settling down in marriage would cure - is something he(she) desires again... and starts to go out and drink occasionally. Over time, it gets to be more and more time and energy spent with partying while the spouse and kids are gone out of the house. Eventually the non-drinking spouse finds out - or the drinker confesses, and says they would like to spend more time exploring the nuances of bartending. What sort of reaction would that spouse have? Some might be horrified that it goes against their upbringing and everything they'd thought people should act like up until that point. Some might be bemused. Some might accept it more quickly. Some might feel like it was a betrayal for their spouse to hide their time drinking, and that this deception/omission changes their view of who their spouse truly is.
Your friend, being gay, would probably empathize with a person who had felt the need to keep something about himself secret.
Why doesn't he know about Crystal?
I wonder what Dr. Phil would say. Or, Dr. Laura, or Dr. Joye, or Roy Masters.
Technically, it's not lying. You simply haven't told someone something. No one tells everyone everything. We all have things about ourselves that we don't broadcast because we think it's simply not important. Unfortunately, we don't get to be the one who determines what our spouse should think is or is not important, and as we can't read their minds (although many of them appear to think we should be able to, but only when they want us to). The problem comes when you don't tell them something that you know, that they should know. OTOH, I'm sure there are many of us who quit CD'ing, truly believing that we were finished with it. By the time we knew otherwise, it was too late.....then, what to do? Destroy the marriage intentionally? There is no easy answer to this question.
Some causes of crossdressing you've probably never even considered: My TG biography at:http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...=1#post1490560
There's an addendum at post # 82 on that thread, too. It's about a ten minute read.
Why don't we understand our desire to dress, behave and feel like a girl? Because from childhood, boys are told that the worst possible thing we can be, is a sissy. This feeling is so ingrained into our psyche, that we will suppress any thoughts that connect us to being or wanting to be feminine, even to the point of creating separate personalities to assign those female feelings into.
One thing is for sure. Love and trust are fickle these days, and even more so, when Cding is an added factor.
Because who knows about Crystal is really Crystal's choice, not mine. When my boyfriend told me about his crossdressing, he asked that I not share it with anyone and that isn't something I feel I have the right to second-guess.
You're right that my friend is quite empathetic about secrecy, but I wouldn't necessarily squash it down to one dimension like that. He's spent years volunteering (then later working for) a local distress/help line; he's a social worker going back to school to get his master's in teaching. I know many other people in the gay community I wouldn't trust with keeping anything a secret.
Last edited by Babeba; 06-08-2011 at 09:17 PM.
Okay. That makes sense. How do you feel about him keeping it a secret, though? Do you approve, or would you rather he was open about it?
I'll tell you why it's serious because for most of the wives they have had the bottom drop out of their world, so don't go telling everyone it's clothes and makeup it goes a heck of a lot deeper. If you think that cding is not serious for any SO then try asking some of the SO's on here about how serious it is.
(pythos replied)
Sorry, but the way I see it, it is only serious because society deems it so. There are no health risks, no possibility of diseases being spread (unless the cding is done for reasons other than the clothing and styles). The fact is, for those like myself that just like the styles, would like more freedom in what I can wear for everyday life, and have no desire to attract someone under false pretenses, or have my sex changed, get kinda irked by being told "it is more than just the clothes". For me, that is exactly it. I would like to attract a female with an open mind that can see beyond or even fully accept the styles, and she herself have fun with gender presentation.
If society did not make it into such a taboo, MANY times worse than oh let's see...Adultery. (Do you think Newt would be still in government if he came out as a CD opposed to a stinking adulterer?) Cding would just be another fringe hobby, that hurts no one, or at most a personal style.
Very well said!
It is just clothes and make up or at the worst trying to experience the world from a female perspective
Kaz,Sophie, yeah we all do stuff that our partners don't like. I have been married zillions of years and the reality is that I fart, snore etc.. because she tells me about it... she does.. I don't tell her about it. (I tried once!) ipso facto - she doesn't - I do. I have a bad throat/ear infection this weekend and I am the bad guy because I woke her at 6am snoring - like I couldn't breath any other way... so what do you really want here?
I am in her eyes a male stereotyope - I am supposed to like football, get pissed with my mates (but not on my own), climb on roofs and fix things and generally make the world happen, and of course bring on good pay checks and be able to fund all the emergencies...oh and by the way sex is off now because she has grown out of it, but just carry on with the usual day job, why is lack of sex a problem for you? It isn't for me so... When I got married I was a knight in shining armour... oh well! Except that she doesn't like alphamales until I am not one and then I am to blame for not being an alpha male...
So.. the last last thing she wants is to discover the CD side of my life... and when she does... the paranoia strikes... I am no longer the man she has come to hate, I am even worse... I have deceived her for years...
I didn't know that my wife had a twin sister living in the UK
I find that statement very profound, is it yours?You cannot deceive unless you know... you cannot lie until you know... and what you know is not necessarily what others know... even when you know it
Last edited by Sandra; 06-09-2011 at 02:59 PM. Reason: merged consecutive posts , please use the multiquote function.
How many times it is not just the clothes or makeup...you really don't have a bloody clue!!!
Sandra
Administrator
I always used to rib you about your legs can't anymore. R.I.P Sexy Legs
R.I.P Rianna
Vague reply to original post: The real liar would be someone who claims to have no secrets at all!
But specifically deciding if it's a good idea to tell your SO about your cross-dressing is probably a matter of circumstance. There are levels and degrees to consider. Some things are better left as a secret. Although, being "caught" might lead to a bigger mess than being open about it. I think that just re-establishes that it's circumstantial
I will say, however, that I think your comparisons are completely, 100% crazy lol. Finding out someone gets cranky and demanding during their time of month most likely won't have the same impact or influence on your relationship as finding out that your SO dresses up as the opposite sex. I don't LIKE this reality, but it's reality... it's common sense, ya know?
Also, there's a small but significant difference between "lying" and "lying by omission". Usually the latter is to spare another's feelings or one's own embarrassment. It's a judgement call.
Last edited by spotlessMind; 06-09-2011 at 03:26 PM.
[SIZE="2"]"I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not"[/SIZE]
Sandra, for you it is not. For others it may be. It is possible for both levels of involvement to exist at the same time in different individuals. Let's keep the discussion civil, please.
How many times it is not just the clothes or makeup...you really don't have a bloody clue!!!
I'd say that the line is pretty clear here. If one's activities are extensive enough to present a danger of being caught, then it is time to figure out a way to talk about it.
Yes, this applied to my own situation as well. Everyone routinely omits mentioning a number of things that might hurt our spouses and if the urge to CD exists only at very low levels that do not affect the spouse it is no different than any other issue.
Last edited by Eryn; 06-09-2011 at 03:52 PM. Reason: avoided double post
Eryn
"These girls have the most beautiful dresses. And so do I! How about that!" [Kaylee, in Firefly] [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"What do you care what other people think?" [Arlene Feynman, to her husband Richard]
"She's taller than all the women in my family, combined!" [Howard, in The Big Bang Theory]
"Tall, tall girl. The woman could hunt geese with a rake!" [Mary Cooper, in The Big Bang Theory]
While I do agree with this hypothetical, my point was to use degree as a circumstantial reference. This is why I put caught in quotations and used the word "might". I suppose "discovered" would be a more ideal wordOne circumstance could be "caught" and another could be "discovered". Your point is likely true, though.
One person's stubbed toe is another person's landmine.
[SIZE="2"]"I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not"[/SIZE]
Sandra said
All I meant by that comment was : the part of that objects, all society sees is the clothes and make up they don't know what the CDer feels wearing those clothes.What are they objecting to??????How many times it is not just the clothes or makeup...you really don't have a bloody clue!!!
So what is the big deal about a guy in a dress ? why is is not accepted ? It hurts no one and without societies objection to it there would be no pain inflicted on anyone.
It is the way that we are viewed that keeps us in the closet and hurts our loved ones.
The are a lot other objectionable male behaviors that are more accepted than crossdressing.
It has been said here before that women that are open minded to CDing are OK with it as long as it is not their SO or child
It seems strange that many people who bemoan the fact that the outside world wants to see gender as all male or all female but insist it isn't like that for them as they are somewhere in between, see truth and lies as polar extremes with no middle ground.
Regarding "it's just clothes and makeup": For some of us it is. I would imagine that for those who dress and make up because of and to express their feminine identity, it's not just clothes and makeup. But there are those who just like the clothes. I can name names, but i won't, as you know who they are. Others, like me, derive pleasure from dressing and making up while never losing our male identities. Hard to believe there are those who still think we all dress because we just feel all femmy inside. For some of us, it is just about the clothes and makeup. And shoes, of course.
Oh God, it would be so simple if it were just....panties and nighties, they are so sweet and easy.
And of course between these men and women there is rarely "I WANT A DIVORCE" discord. It's comfy and private. Little need for lying among friends and lovers, husbands and wives.
But more often than not, for so many....it is much much more....and that's where it gets complicated.
From the "I am more of a woman than you" to the underlying "hatred of women" to there "isn't" a woman to meet my standards, desires, dress code and weight requirements (despite child birth, menopause etc) to ever satisfy me, therefore I must invent my own femme, since women in real life have so miserably failed me.
It's not fair to you to be so unhappy and misunderstood...and not fair to the women who love you and had no idea of what you really struggle with....because the truth was so painful you felt you had to lie?
Last edited by Momarie; 06-09-2011 at 09:33 PM.
[SIZE="4"]Momarie[/SIZE]
........................... but honey do you love me warts n all.... lol
im pretty sure they would say that there are a lot of them in this need their heads read,.... n a boot up the backside..into a form of reality, that Lying is lying no matter how long it has been going on, as it has a penchant of coming back to byte you all in yer butts,.... so honesty really does pay.... whether your hiding your CD'ing or not....then if you do love each other things can be worked through or you are able to make a sound decision of whether you want that relationship to go further, its all about “choices” given that im sure a lot will have made one that would’ve suited, and others would end up looking down another path ....... so in other words lying or hiding your dressing or whatever to keep someone you want in your life is just covering your arse. Is that fair “NO” As we all read in here the problems that the GG’s or even the CD’s end up having because someone wasn’t honest enough at the beginning of a relationship...... doesn’t take Einstein to figure that out.
I guess im one of the lucky GG's who knew way before I got into the relationship I have with CF.
Since when has this been right helloooooooo ... its more then that,.. as I believe other GG’s and Sandra have mentioned... We know some of the CD’ers get it and some don’t.... but with your following comment i believe is to be absolutely correct.......=silhouette;2512131]
Someone said it's just clothes and makeup. How is that a big deal? Well, here's the break down. Existentially, yes. You're right. It's just clothes and makeup.
This i totally agree with,“When you start hiding it in a relationship, however, then psychologically it becomes a double life in the eyes of your spouse If you're capable of living a double life, you're obviously a good liar and have shown a capacity to lie extensively and at length to those you love. That's how it's more than just clothes and makeup.”Those that communicate with their Partners and keep on the same page have much, and work at their relationships and cover the cding/or transient issues in the relationship. If you are married is this not meant to be a partnership and not to be hidden ... I don’t care how long the closet is....If you choose to be in there and only want your wife to know does she not have the right to know first hand before thou takes her hand in marriage.Conversely, someone who takes the initiative to communicate with their spouse reveals many positive attributes.
I am a power to believe its time that some of The CD’ers in this forum need to take responsibility for their actions, and be up front, honest, quit their tantrums, & just be responsible for their behaviour,.. and start talking to their partners on all levels calmly, & vice versa ,...because for every reaction there is an action, time to smell the roses and drink good coffee. Never mind the last comment of the above quote.I'm backin' Sophie the full 86 times. In the best of all cosmic grains of sand these various, & occasionally thoughtful mentations put to pen would be nothing more than the delicate nectar burps of a butterfly. BUT... someone has been eating only lavender & roses. Which leads to ones scatological emissions not stinking, unless you are a ruminant. I don't date cows.Sorted. Huntress
is that how we are seen my gawd
LYING IS LYING, or hiding and deceiving is the old adage “what a tangled web we weave when we deceive”
How the heck can you think that CDing or gender issues is not important... wheres your head.???We all have things about ourselves that we don't broadcast because we think it's simply not important Unfortunately, we don't get to be the one who determines what our spouse should think is or is not important,If communication was used then you would know a mind set of your GG has/had im sure The problem comes when you don't tell them something that you know, that they should know.as we can't read their minds (although many of them appear to think we should be able to, but only when they want us to).
the last comment there is bang on and the answer is because you weren’t honest with your partner from the beginning.OTOH, I'm sure there are many of us who quit CD'ing, truly believing that we were finished with it. By the time we knew otherwise, it was too late.....then, what to do? Destroy the marriage intentionally? There is no easy answer to this question.
AS for the quiting of the CDing how naive can some of you be..... it never goes away so what better could you have then,.. a partner or wife who understands right from the get go of who you are no matter your dress clothes is it not better to get to know the person and how and who they are and work from there, if you love each other it will work its way through all, its not easy, no matter what relationship you are in hetro cding, if you don’t keep on the same page walk equably talk, always without dissention of the other and lying deceit and cheating , hiding things... im damned sure if we as women did this we wouldn’t be the partners or women that support those of you today,
I do feel for those whose wives don’t understand and don’t want to know about your crossdressing ...Do you think its the way they are bought up religion in some cases yes,....
but if you were honest at the beginning do you think you would still be with your partner now???? Some are some aren’t....
I also know there are those who are members of the forum who have great wives, and do get the picture, also those members who support the GG’s that do come here to get answers.
I am an open book...always have been says it as i see it...and always in dialogue and been through a lot more then you know..... but my opinion is that we all make choices for ourselves its how we walk and talk them choices,.. as to how we grow...... lifes a journey don’t make it difficult with selfishness, tantrums and wanting your own way.... if us women behaved like that im sure the divorce rate would be way higher then it is..... live life love laugh and enjoy...no matter what dress you have on.
Last edited by Nigella; 06-10-2011 at 01:28 PM. Reason: Merged consecutive posts
"A day without red wine is like a day without sunshine.."
when the devils feet hit the floor you can hear the good lord .. say "awwww crap shes up"
Eleanor Rooservelt "behind every man stands a woman"......
but then in my devlish attitude behind everyman stands many women depends, on many things or how he/she dresses..laffing
Remember, strength based in force is a strength people fear. Strength based in love is a strength people crave.
I'm happy to be truthful to people who don't over react.
what if the CD were to tell his SO that he was NOT down with OPP but in fact, was?
would she say - "You down with OPP?"
And the CD husband would say - "yeah you know me!"
I think this kind of honesty is important, especially cause imagine if they were driving in the car and the husband popped in his OPP disk and started grooving, even tho the wife was NOT down with OPP.
It takes a true Erin to be a pain in the assatar.
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