Feminism interfering with crossdressing?

[Shananigans]

Femininity is the cultural rulebook that governs how women should look and behave to be socially accepted.
So monthly periods, childbirth, female friendships etc are part of womanhood whereas party dresses, perfumes, supportive roles are part of femininity.

I couldn't disagree more. Sure biological things would be aspects of womanhood. But, I don't think that party dresses and perfumes are supportive roles to femininity.

I think the biological aspects of a woman are important because they define what we are on anatomical level. However, I think that the assumption that femininity is a materialistic phenomenon is something that is confused not only by CDs, but by many people in society. As I have said there was a thread in which the OP asked what femininity was...every CD was posting about how to dress...the GGs went on a more internal level to what femininity is.

This confusion is what can lead to the stereotypes that the OP is talking about. If femininity is a woman in a dress with heels and perfume, then anyone who isn't wearing such outfit isn't feminine. However, this stereotype is fading. Fashion changes....some say for the better and some say for the worst. However, what is constant is that women are still have femininity no matter what they wear because it is not just an external concept and it is not purely biological (menopause, period, etc.)

Also, I agree that CD should not be denounced for not portraying accurate women; however, when these CDs think that they ARE displaying how a woman should act or behave (or, that they make better women because of their dress) transcends into feminist territory.

I like this article (perhaps because it mentions Ani DiFranco, who I love): http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marcia..._b_748070.html

Here are highlights from the article:

"What does femininity mean to you?

Does being feminine relate to feminism in your mind? Or are the two concepts totally different to you?"

"In the end, I'm inclined to say that being feminine means I am okay with who I am, no matter what type of girl I am, what clothes I like to wear, or what life path I choose. I am inclusive of myself as well as others, including what appears to be my masculine side.

Being feminine then also means I respect the choices other people make for themselves. No one should define femininity for me. I should not define it for them. If expressing my femininity means I am being inclusive, then I accept others for who they are and the choices they make as long as they aren't blocking mine."

"Who is the person beyond the labels? What strengths, gifts, talents and perspectives does he or she bring to this moment right now? When we truly honor each other as humans, we are feminine in the sense of community and masculine in the sense of creating one human tribe. In this world, no one is better. We are one."


So, in short, I sincerely hope that femininity is much more complex than clothing choices. I like to ask this, "If the world changed and women wore tuxes and mean wore dresses, would I still be feminine?" The fact of the matter is that our assigned clothing choices are by CHANCE. Fashion changes every minute. So, again, I sincerely hope that femininity is NOT purely rooted in fashion choices because A) It degrades what the feminine essence is and B) It means my femininity can be taken away from me once I am placed in different clothing.

I feel that femininity is bone deep and it cannot be stripped off of my back...and, I do not confuse it with my womanhood.

[Fab Karen]

Agreed, Shan. Though it can get into debatable territory without a good definition of "not portraying accurate women."

[Shananigans]

Agreed, Shan. Though it can get into debatable territory without a good definition of "not portraying accurate women."

True...I don't know if I am even portraying an accurate woman haha

[pj]

For me, admiration of women is what made me want to experience life on their side of the aisle...

Far be it from me to tell you why you do something, you're the only expert there. But based on what you've written here in this thread, methinks someone doesn't really know themselves yet. There's nothing wrong with that, you are a young person, so you should be questioning everything. But my vibe, baby, is just that a lot of this rings hollow. The lady doth protest too much, if you get my drift.

I grew up in the 60s and 70s, during the rise of feminism, as did a lot of people here, and what we're doing is not counter to those ideals at all. Regardless of what your textbook is telling you. I've always been and always will be a feminist. But that doesn't change who I am.

Like someone else said, if you're conflicted, just give it up. See how that works for you. You'll learn something about yourself, that's for sure.

[Maddie22]

First of all, I've really enjoyed this thread, especially the posts from the individuals that have participated frequently, Pythos, Shans, Lip5stick, and a few others. I'm getting a little bit of writers block here, and feel like I'm about to write an essay for my gender class (which was only one fall removed).

I would first like to defend a particular crowd that often gets very negative criticism on this forum, and are often very stereotyped and misrepresented. Drag queens, while over the top, are not exactly denouncing femininity or degrading women. Many of the queens I know are living full time as women, and when not performing wear average clothes. However like many performers that go on stage, they have a tendency to glam it up more. It happens in regular show business as well. Anyone think that today's artist, male or female, always wear the same things on stage as they do off? Some might, and some may not. It's part of the performance, and often times they perform more as a tribute to certain women. I remember one inparticular that performed to Tina Turner's Proud Mary. It was done very respectably, and in complete tribute and imitation (which to some degree is the best form of flattery) to Tina Turner. I would say that a tribute to such a person as Tina Turner and what she has accomplished isn't degrading femininity at all, but honoring it.

I believe that while we hold equal rights for women, in terms of biology, we do not hold equal rights for feminism in our society. In the gender in society class that I took, my final paper was on a book written by Julia Serano called Whipping Girl. Julia is a post-operative transsexual women, who started out as a straight crossdresser, to becoming more androgynous, and then to being trans, while staying with her wife. She is a professor, and often does feminine prose poetry slams. You can youtube some of her performances. Much of what she writes about is how femininity is losing to masculinity. One of the things that she has struggled with is the radical feminists, who are so radical that they become themselves pro masculinity and chauvinistic women. She gives an example of how she was not allowed to an all female music festival since she was born a male thus experienced having the perceived male privilege. However this same music festival allowed female to male trans people, even though many of them were able to experience male privilege. Her challenge is that even when she lived life as a male she never was able to fully experience the male privilege because she was a very feminine male. Characteristics that are not accepted by straight males. We seem to automatically assume that a feminine male is gay or a sissy (a derived connotation of sissy than Shannigans was talking about). Why men can't take on some more perceived feminine traits of being more caring and nurturing, and having a softer more compassionate side to them is beyond me. Why we feel that those characteristics are often linked with femininity is perceived as weak, while aggression, competitiveness are linked to masculinity and perceived as being strong is a true social injustice.

I think what will become more important as society strives for more equality, is a level playing field of masculinity and femininity. With that, I do believe that there are some social aspects of dress that do come into play in this. While it's very accepted for women to have a more variety of clothing options, and males to have a limits, clothing doesn't define who we are on the inside. They are many women who dress very girlie, who display more masculine characteristics than I do, and there are many women who do not dress in the girlie who are extremely feminine in their persona.

Having been raised by my mother and my sister for much of my formative years, I believe that I'm much more for women's rights and pro-femininity than most people and men. However I'm not afraid to argue and or to challenge/compete with a women for a job, especially if I believe I'm more qualified for the right reasons than they are. For many years I've bartender, and it has always upset me that a female will get a job because of looks, even though I am a more qualified bartender than they are. The opposite is true with bosses, and I have often took my female bosses side over their male counterpart because they actually did a better job, and while I can get along with the "boys club" it is for that very reason that I choose not to join.

Many here like to dress in more of the girlie girl style. I have no problem with that at all. I dress the same, and love to shop at stores like Macy's, the Limited, ect...It's more about wanting to look nice. I am the same way as a male, I like to look nice and well maintained, and as a male I do fall under that "metro" category. I don't think that liking clothing, shoes, or some of the "finer" things in life neglects or takes away from women's struggles at all. You can be a very beautiful well put together women, and still be very empowering for women and femininity.

As a communication major, I often think of a theory that can really inhibit progress, and I believe can be really detrimental to some of the males here (myself included). That is the Spiral of Silence Theory, which really explains how a very small minority will stay silent in order to maintain a certain level and type of status from a much larger majority voicing the opposite. It takes a lot of courage to challenge the norm when the norm is wrong or unjust. I have on many occasions, but not all. I believe though that in order to get to equality more of us will have to break the Spiral of Silence. I am also one who believes that equality doesn't mean we all look the same either, but rather all walks of life are viewed as being equal no matter their looks or personality.

For myself, my reasonings for crossdressing are not for a fetish, but rather who I am. I consider myself a pre-transitional transsexual. And whether I do transition or not, my true self gender is female. While I will never know what it's like to be a biological female, a biological female will never know what it's like to be trans either. When I go out dressed, I am not a women, and don't claim to fully understand, however I can relate my experiences with genetic women. I understand the process that some females go through to get ready to go out. I know what it's like to have older men unwantingly hit on me and touch me in inappropriate ways, or to have cat calls as well. I don't think there is any problems with being able to relate with someone else, and have a better understanding of what they went through with out claiming to have walked in their shoes and fully understand. I will never know what it's like to have a menstrual cycle, or to give birth to a child, or go through menopause. However, if given a choice to be born again as a female, I would because I know that is who I am on the inside.

And I'll stop my rambling there.

[Shananigans]

For myself, my reasonings for crossdressing are not for a fetish, but rather who I am. I consider myself a pre-transitional transsexual. And whether I do transition or not, my true self gender is female. While I will never know what it's like to be a biological female, a biological female will never know what it's like to be trans either. When I go out dressed, I am not a women, and don't claim to fully understand, however I can relate my experiences with genetic women. I understand the process that some females go through to get ready to go out. I know what it's like to have older men unwantingly hit on me and touch me in inappropriate ways, or to have cat calls as well. I don't think there is any problems with being able to relate with someone else, and have a better understanding of what they went through with out claiming to have walked in their shoes and fully understand. I will never know what it's like to have a menstrual cycle, or to give birth to a child, or go through menopause. However, if given a choice to be born again as a female, I would because I know that is who I am on the inside.

And I'll stop my rambling there.

Very well said, Becca.

I also want to stress that even though you and I have different experiences and may never fully understand each other's life journey, I DO consider you a woman and anyone else who identifies with the experience of being born into the wrong gender. I have found when reading posts by transwomen that they seem to focus on the same things that GGs do when grasping for explanations on femininity and the female identity. It is about much more than what the person wears, in other words. Why is it like this? I think because transwomen (or transmen, for that matter) identify as a certain sex with or without the clothes. In other words, the clothes aren't making you into a woman...you are already a woman but have been born in the wrong gender. Perhaps the clothes are an important part of making you feel "right," but they aren't the deciding factor.

They aren't the deciding factor for GGs either, and that's where I feel we are similar.

Either way, I just wanted to point out that in my posts I was talking about CDs and not trans-women. I consider trans-women to be just as much of a woman as I am, even if we have different paths and experiences along our road to living as a woman.

[Maddie22]

One thing though, is that all CD's, transsexuals, drag queens & kings, transvestites, gender queer, and the many other's all fall under the Transgender umbrella and can be anywhere in that spectrum. That being said, I think a lot of people no matter where they fall under, don't understand that clothes don't make the person. I've read many CD's posts on here that are very aware of that fact, and say if it wasn't for family obligations that they would transition, thus making them trans in a way.

I do agree though that there is a vast majority of people, which includes many on here, who feel that femininity is only what you wear on the outside. When it truly is who you are on the inside.

[Shananigans]

One thing though, is that all CD's, transsexuals, drag queens & kings, transvestites, gender queer, and the many other's all fall under the Transgender umbrella and can be anywhere in that spectrum. That being said, I think a lot of people no matter where they fall under, don't understand that clothes don't make the person. I've read many CD's posts on here that are very aware of that fact, and say if it wasn't for family obligations that they would transition, thus making them trans in a way.

I do agree though that there is a vast majority of people, which includes many on here, who feel that femininity is only what you wear on the outside. When it truly is who you are on the inside.

True. Even if it is hard to lump people under one category, it seems to be done out of convenience. I have mixed feelings about the lumping under the TG umbrella...I think the labeling can be both helpful and confusing at the same time. I'd say that someone who dresses for purely fetishistic purposes isn't TG...but, that's just my opinion. At least it gives common ground for people who seem to participate in the same activity. This can be helpful for banding together for overall acceptance.

I also hope that before someone would make the huge jump into transitioning that they would know it's not just about the clothes and the physicalities. There's a lot of people who say they would LOVE to transition, but if it were me I'd be pretty hesitant. It's seems like a very painful process. I also think that people have unrealistic expectations about transitioning and hormones in general that can leave them disappointed and leaning towards more and more plastic surgeries. That's a whole different debate for a different day. But, what I think is relative is the fact that if you know what you are on the inside and have a lot of satisfaction in knowing that no one can take that away from you, hopefully the physical manifestations of yourself aren't as important. And, I know that's a completely radical concept that most people won't agree with me on; however, I really ascribe to the philosophy that the physical manifestation of myself has little to do with who I am on the inside. I'm just a bag of skin filled with bones and blood...the real me cannot be touched physically.

I think that philosophy is why it's hard for me to give a definition for what IS femininity. I think it's a very internal thing that I can't put a physical dimension too. I think wearing pretty clothes and shoes can help someone feel more "feminine" by the definition of what femininity is to society. But, the definition of femininity to the outsider is by chance. People that are observing the physical manifestations of someone acting feminine probably wore clothes that were assigned to their appropriate sex. Therefore, the feminine essence is tied into this physical manifestation that entails a certain dress code. However, the dress code is by chance and is not important. When you see past the dress code and into the feminine essence, then you "get it." You are no longer the outsider who saw the physical manifestations of femininity and therefore assigned it (femininity) to a dress code for all outsiders to understand as feminine.

Okay, enough hippie crap for today.

[Rianna Humble]

I also hope that before someone would make the huge jump into transitioning that they would know it's not just about the clothes and the physicalities. There's a lot of people who say they would LOVE to transition, but if it were me I'd be pretty hesitant. It's seems like a very painful process.

I am often baffled by people who would LOVE to transition - most of the TS I know do it because we cannot continue to function without transitioning. I am one of the lucky ones who has not lost everything by transitioning, but there are many people who do. I don't know many people who would LOVE to lose family, friends, sometimes even their livelihood.

I also think that people have unrealistic expectations about transitioning and hormones in general that can leave them disappointed and leaning towards more and more plastic surgeries. That's a whole different debate for a different day.

I agree that there are some who seem to have very unrealistic expectations, the majority of people in the TS forum try to explain the realities, but as you say, that is for another day, another discussion.

But, what I think is relative is the fact that if you know what you are on the inside and have a lot of satisfaction in knowing that no one can take that away from you, hopefully the physical manifestations of yourself aren't as important. And, I know that's a completely radical concept that most people won't agree with me on; however, I really ascribe to the philosophy that the physical manifestation of myself has little to do with who I am on the inside. I'm just a bag of skin filled with bones and blood...the real me cannot be touched physically.

Unfortunately, in the case of people suffering from Gender Dysphoria (or the slightly more recent term Gender Incongruence), the external appearance is important. Sometimes, the physical is needed to support the mental stability.

I recently saw a documentary about a facio-cranial unit that treats a number of birth defects including cleft palate. There are people who can live with a cleft palate, but those who have it treated can have a better quality of life. Those of us with acute Gender Dysphoria also have a birth defect and often the treatment of that defect is needed to give us quality of life.

When you see past the dress code and into the feminine essence, then you "get it."

[Shananigans]

I am often baffled by people who would LOVE to transition - most of the TS I know do it because we cannot continue to function without transitioning. I am one of the lucky ones who has not lost everything by transitioning, but there are many people who do. I don't know many people who would LOVE to lose family, friends, sometimes even their livelihood.

Unfortunately, in the case of people suffering from Gender Dysphoria (or the slightly more recent term Gender Incongruence), the external appearance is important. Sometimes, the physical is needed to support the mental stability.

I recently saw a documentary about a facio-cranial unit that treats a number of birth defects including cleft palate. There are people who can live with a cleft palate, but those who have it treated can have a better quality of life. Those of us with acute Gender Dysphoria also have a birth defect and often the treatment of that defect is needed to give us quality of life.

I don't quite understand it either, but there are people who wish beyond wish they could have the opportunity. I don't mean "love" in that they would love the experience, but "love" as in wish they could do it. I can never really understand being in a TS person's situation, but I would just imagine that it would be my last resort of all resorts. But, most of the people I have talked with are in the process of transitioning and still at a very difficult phase. Perhaps that influences my outlook on it in a lot of ways. As you have said, it may help the person's mental stability to look as womanly as they feel. However, what I am really referring to are the people who transition and are Not satisfied. They realize that they still aren't "all female"...there's more they could do for their looks...they aren't anatomically the same...they are unhappy with their hands or the thickness in their necks...they want ribs removed to have thinner waists...etc., etc...the list goes on. I just wonder where it all ends with people that I have met on here that keep measuring themselves up to the ideal woman that I don't think even I could ever be. And, those are the people that I think are way caught up in physicalities. They will never be happy with Themselves, they seek something that they are not. And, I do not mean that they are not women, I mean that they are not the women that they try to become. Even GGs are guilty of this...think of the women that are paraded around on TV that are acclaimed for their plastic surgeries. They went waaaaaaaaay too far in buying into a societal ideal. It's nice to be that ideal...be considered beautiful, intelligent, etc. But, when you go further than that and become more of an "it" that you have gone too far. Most people want to be reached beyond their shell of a body and touched within...but, when you and your life becomes About that shell and living it, you are no longer living to make yourself a better person and you aren't helping anyone else around you with your obsession in your appearance and materialistic things.

I'll be fine if I can work on myself from the inside out. I don't think I'll get very far working from the outside in.

Anyway, that's what I meant as far as unrealistic expectations, which are of course not exclusive to the trans community...we are all guilty of unrealistic expectations. But, we have to diagnose our problem once we see its manifestation.

Equating this back to the OP, I think that trans people have to go through as much objectification as GGs. This may be the reason that some trans people aren't satisfied. There's an ideal that even MTF TS are expected to live up to that I think is absolutely unfair. Does that fall under the umbrella of feminism? What about equality for trans-women and trans-men that they don't have to be what 90% of the people expect them to be? A joke. Sex workers. Porn stars (same thing as sex worker?) Better looking than the average female or male. Honestly, THAT makes me REALLY angry and I don't have to spend a lot of time online before I fall onto those opinions. Feminists went very far for GGs, but transwomen and transmen are very much under prejudice. It's honestly no wonder that people transition and aren't satisfied. Everyone is telling you that you are supposed to look like these jokers that are on the Hangover pt 2...yeah, it was a good laugh and funny haha *sarcasm*...but, what's Not funny is that the tranny sex worker is the stereotypical, funny prostitute joke. So, what?...That's all people can come up with?...TS prostitutes?? Is that all a t-girl can hope for now? That she has to look like a prostitute and act like one too?

Everyone in the audience gags when they see the beautiful girl has a penis. THe guy in the movie is horrified he had sex with a "man." REALLY?!?!? If the movie was flipped...and it was about a GG...feminists would just sh*t. I know I would. (I did...well, I didn't sh*t...but, I was angry). Was a letter written to the makers of the movie to say that wasn't okay? Who is this porn star that is so much of a freaking loser that she allows people to treat her like a joke and a chick with a d*ck. Because, that's what they called her in the movie. That's NOT okay! Why do trans people stand by this? It even makes the feminist in me mad! Why are we standing by and allowing this intolerance??? GGs get angry because CDs are objectifying them...yeah, ok, whatever...TS are treated like a joke on the silver screen and it's A-OK. It's intolerable. I'm not okay with it. I'm not okay with this TS that played the part in the movie being okay with it. I'm mad at her too.

I'd have an identity crisis even AFTER I had transitioned. I don't know how y'all do it/put up with it. Props.

Also, I don't really think it's quite the same as a child with cleft palate though...the opening in the nasopharynx causes learning to speak quite difficult. Idk..we could go around and around all day about physical disabilities that may be analogous to be trans. But, I think that gets in the territory of trying to equate one experience to another. You and I could never know how it is to live life with a physical disability such as a cleft palate. We can say it is debilitating and imagine and leave it as such. But, I do agree with your analogy that the physical change could be very mentally needed for someone.

[sometimes_miss]

I may be alone in this. But as I become more learned about feminism and women in general, crossdressing loses a lot of its appeal (except maybe on Halloween). Especially considering how cliched many CDs are in their imitation of women.

That's their choice. You don't have to do it that way.

I think I'm reaching a point where I don't see the purpose in crossdressing anymore because I just don't view the genders as very different.

Then you're not paying attention. Sure, there are plenty of women 'dressing down'. But there are still plenty who dress to the 9's.

And the exaggerated femininity CDs put out isn't something I would admire in a GG. Perhaps it's because I lack a transvestic fetish as a motivating factor? Another thing happened when I visited a nightclub featuring drag performers: gay men acting out a rather absurd and offensive portrayal of women. Although I was at the show with GG friends who weren't bothered by it, something felt wrong to me. It seemed like a misogynistic display put on by men who don't desire women and may be jealous of them. Then when I got back to the Internet, the CDs I saw seemed an awful lot like drag queens. There is this major emphasis on stockings, heels, makeup and other such things that modern women in real life avoid wearing.

Not all of them avoid dressing like that all the time. And, drag queen shows are entertainment. They're charicatures of real life. Same way a war movie isn't real either.

People generally crossdress for one of two reasons; it's fun and/or exciting, or we feel we belong in those clothes more than in stereotypical men's clothing, and dressing as female distances us from feeling as male. There are a whole lot of other driving forces that make us dress this way also. PIck your own.

[Maddie22]

Equating this back to the OP, I think that trans people have to go through as much objectification as GGs. This may be the reason that some trans people aren't satisfied. There's an ideal that even MTF TS are expected to live up to that I think is absolutely unfair. Does that fall under the umbrella of feminism? What about equality for trans-women and trans-men that they don't have to be what 90% of the people expect them to be? A joke. Sex workers. Porn stars (same thing as sex worker?) Better looking than the average female or male. Honestly, THAT makes me REALLY angry and I don't have to spend a lot of time online before I fall onto those opinions. Feminists went very far for GGs, but transwomen and transmen are very much under prejudice. It's honestly no wonder that people transition and aren't satisfied. Everyone is telling you that you are supposed to look like these jokers that are on the Hangover pt 2...yeah, it was a good laugh and funny haha *sarcasm*...but, what's Not funny is that the tranny sex worker is the stereotypical, funny prostitute joke. So, what?...That's all people can come up with?...TS prostitutes?? Is that all a t-girl can hope for now? That she has to look like a prostitute and act like one too?

Everyone in the audience gags when they see the beautiful girl has a penis. THe guy in the movie is horrified he had sex with a "man." REALLY?!?!? If the movie was flipped...and it was about a GG...feminists would just sh*t. I know I would. (I did...well, I didn't sh*t...but, I was angry). Was a letter written to the makers of the movie to say that wasn't okay? Who is this porn star that is so much of a freaking loser that she allows people to treat her like a joke and a chick with a d*ck. Because, that's what they called her in the movie. That's NOT okay! Why do trans people stand by this? It even makes the feminist in me mad! Why are we standing by and allowing this intolerance??? GGs get angry because CDs are objectifying them...yeah, ok, whatever...TS are treated like a joke on the silver screen and it's A-OK. It's intolerable. I'm not okay with it. I'm not okay with this TS that played the part in the movie being okay with it. I'm mad at her too.

I really think this goes back to the Spiral of Silence Theory I talked about. It is hard to speak up when you feel you're the minority and that you're views wouldn't be accepted or that you'd be ridiculed or a number of other reasons. I think the majority of all people have experienced this in some way or another. (I really want to go back to grad school and I could really use this theory and apply it to some LGBTQ and do some major research) This is why many trans people are in hiding, and don't want to come out because of ridicule. We don't exactly have the support from allies either.

I speak up the majority of the time to people who talk poorly of trans, but there have been times where I've let it go based off of fear to some extent. I'm really guilty of this when it comes to my father. My fear of transitioning is not how I'll look or be perceived in society, but rather how will my family react and mostly my father (not that my mother isn't important, but I feel that I have her support no matter what). Thus I stay in a degree of silence around him about certain topics because of fear of losing him.

However others can also fear losing a place in society, or fear of having nothing at all. The trans person in the Hangover probably accepted that role because of a need to survive. It's not exactly the same, but what about people that are casted in movies as a "fat" or "ugly" character. How awful is that, why would you want to degrade yourself to that level. However on the flip side, they agreed to do that role for whatever reason and in turn they are not helping with their own cause and should be aware of that but it's still their decision to let themselves be typed cast. We have just amount of a right to be angry with them as the creator of the role. After all if no one would do that role, then that role would no longer be apart of the movie, whether it's the "tranny", "fat person" or "ugly person."

Getting into sex workers is a whole different ball game all together, and I can see a lot of different sides to that as well. And should the discussion lead to that direction I will definitely join in!

I love great conversations!

[VeronicaMoonlit]

I may be alone in this. But as I become more learned about feminism and women in general, crossdressing loses a lot of its appeal (except maybe on Halloween). Especially considering how cliched many CDs are in their imitation of women.

Ahhh, having issues reconciling it with your feminism? I did in the past quite a bit and to a less extent now.

First things first, here is how I personally define a few terms (they can mean other things to other people but this is how I personaly use them)

I use "Femme" to describe the things like shoes and makeup and liking fashion for it's own sake, the "girly girl" part.

Femininity is hard to define, to me it's the sort of "spiritual" part. I try to not make claims on this.

Feminism is the political and social movement towards the equality of women. I've identified as a feminist for a loooong time my guess is about 24 years.

And here's something I wrote a couple years back...elsewhere. I post it here to show people how I started to reconcile my femme-ness with my feminism

So a couple of weeks ago I wanted to show how I saw the pink fog, so I made a picture. I know, I know, visual imagery, but it helped.

Here are Pink Fog aspects of me:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/veronic...it/3623830277/

There's those InStyle fashion books, full of looksism and classism and consumerism and beauty myth encouraging stuff.

a copy of Allure magazine, more of the same.

my Thigh high boots from Victoria's Secret, a waste of money. I bought them years ago because of how fabulous they looked and wanted them even if I knew I would never wear them.

a pair of satin evening pumps that I have never worn in public, from Victoria's Secret. Very classic actually, but still almost like new. Which is a sad thing.

A pair of lovely dressy strappy sandals, never worn. But I thought they were pretty. But not sensible, not practical

Hello Kitty battery fan, very pink and very stereotypically girly.

fake eyelashes, more artifice

russian red MAC lipgloss from 2004, very red and sultry but I'm not sultry

Big purple bottle is Stella McCartney Sheer Eau De Toilette. Bought back in 2005 at Sephora, the bottle is still pretty much full. Haven't bought any perfume or been to Sephora since, because it's a waste. I want to wear it, but don't.

Smaller bottle is Far and Away from Avon, given to me by my mother I think. She got it for herself and didn't like it. Years old, still full.

The book is Best Lesbian Erotica of 2008, a gift to me, from someone I love and respect greatly. But I feel guilty having it, not because it's erotica, but because I'm not a lesbian. I'm co-opting a lesbian identity.

And of course Thigh high hosiery.

That's the pink fog: impractical, constructed, too femme for my own good. Having things that don't get used because I'm a coward and a failure.

This is non pink fog:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/veronic...it/3623830615/

Books about Feminism and Gender:

The book Fire with Fire by Naomi Wolf
The Beauty Myth by Naomi Wolf
Gender Outlaw by Kate Bornstein

Sensible loafers, and tailored loafer style heels, sensible shoes.

A beigey-pink neutral lipstick that's practical

practical "real woman" Trouser socks, not pnatyhose or thigh highs.

And I asked myself the question, would a certain author I respect greatly and my sister respect and want to be friends with the woman who was like what the first picture represents or the second. The second I thought, and I felt bad and I heard a voice in my head saying stuff like this:


"Look at you, you're no woman. Real women fight against all that pink and frilly crap. Hello ****ing Kitty, you're 42 years old, not 10. Just look at those silly impractical shoes, you're a constructed stereotype, just like page 218 in My Husband Betty:

Are Glamour girls the only women that crossdressers and transsexual women admire? Are they all that shallow?

I am half convinced the reason that there aren't more women involved in the crossdressing community is because the images of women crossdressers love are all the same old crap. Why would we want to be part of a community that advances and celebrates images of women that make us feel bad about ourselves? How can we feel welcome when all crossdressers want to talk about is shoes and makeup.

You're pathetic, you're no woman. You're no feminist, you're a delusional MAN who's never going to be a woman.

And I felt horrible and sad and didn't post.

But eventually over time I started thinking. There aren't two of me, there's only one. Don't I deserve to feel pretty or own "sexy" things without guilt? And my mind kept going back and forth: Yes! No! Yes! No! Be more like a certain usually non-femmy woman of my acquaintance. Be more like my sister Don't be constructed, be real.

And I remembered this:

http://www.myhusbandbetty.com/2009/0...thday-present/

It was a gift to Betty, but also served as one to me in a way. My sister bought the femmethology books for me for my birthday after I sent her the links to the books.

Am I not like those femmes in the books and identified with them? Yes.

Doesn't mean that I am a femme too? I have said I am at other times. Yes I am.

(this is probably the most important part)

Wouldn't it be better to be true to that, than to think I have to become some perfect super feminist who disavows the femme as being bad all the time? Yes.

And where did I first learn about Naomi Wolf and Susan Faludi anyway? Glamour Magazine, back when The Beauty Myth and Backlash were first published. Glamour didn't suck then and strongly supported feminism (at least the third wave kind)

And didn't I read their writings and interviews in Glamour and begin identifying as a feminist? Yes, yes I did.

And are there femmes who are really cool and groovoi and feminists? Yes.

And do they like the things I like, and are fabulous and full of teh Awesome and Win? Yes.

And do I want to be just like them and full of teh Awesome? Yes.

So is there a problem with my femmeness being a bad thing? No, not in this way, but...

Shaddup. Am I full of pink fog? Probably not.

Very good, besides, who bought me my Hello Kitty tchotchke box? My sister.

And the Hello Kitty jammies? My sister.

And did I not just post that she has a Hello Kitty case for her Nintendo DS? Yes.

And finally, Am I not a woman? Ummmmmmm well. not yet, I haven't earned it yet.

Sigh, am I going to have to smack myself with an IRC trout until I say yes? No. I'll say it eventually, just not now. I need to experience life..full time...for that. Get some "woman experience points" :-)

In the gender in society class that I took, my final paper was on a book written by Julia Serano called Whipping Girl. ......One of the things that she has struggled with is the radical feminists, who are so radical that they become themselves pro masculinity and chauvinistic women.

Thank you for mentioning Whipping Girl, it gets mentioned to rarely here. I can also recommend the Femmethology volumes for femme feminists (especially ones that are lesbian or believe that they might end up there some day in the future)

She gives an example of how she was not allowed to an all female music festival since she was born a male thus experienced having the perceived male privilege. However this same music festival allowed female to male trans people, even though many of them were able to experience male privilege. Her challenge is that even when she lived life as a male she never was able to fully experience the male privilege because she was a very feminine male. Characteristics that are not accepted by straight males. We seem to automatically assume that a feminine male is gay or a sissy (a derived connotation of sissy than Shannigans was talking about). Why men can't take on some more perceived feminine traits of being more caring and nurturing, and having a softer more compassionate side to them is beyond me. Why we feel that those characteristics are often linked with femininity is perceived as weak, while aggression, competitiveness are linked to masculinity and perceived as being strong is a true social injustice.

That well describes the book.

I have found when reading posts by transwomen that they seem to focus on the same things that GGs do when grasping for explanations on femininity and the female identity. It is about much more than what the person wears, in other words. Why is it like this? I think because transwomen (or transmen, for that matter) identify as a certain sex with or without the clothes. In other words, the clothes aren't making you into a woman...you are already a woman but have been born in the wrong gender. Perhaps the clothes are an important part of making you feel "right," but they aren't the deciding factor.

I consider the clothes to be a "crutch" I wish I could get gendered "correctly" without them, but I need the "help" In a women's tee-shirt and jeans, I don't look like a woman, I need more "femme" signifiers.

Either way, I just wanted to point out that in my posts I was talking about CDs and not trans-women. I consider trans-women to be just as much of a woman as I am, even if we have different paths and experiences along our road to living as a woman.

I am very careful about using the word "woman" in reference to myself....in fact, I don't. I don't feel like I've "earned it" yet. I may never earn it, but I hope to.

Veronica

[Shananigans]

Veronica, if you aren't going to use that Stella...mind sending it my way? That was my signature scent for a long time...I could get back into it.

And, I really enjoyed reading your post and I hope that the OP comes back to read it too. I think it was a great example of how to reconcile CDing and feminism.

[Pythos]

There is a string in this conversation that I really do not like. It seems that those like myself that really and truly likes skirts and other "girly" stuff, is in some way doing something wrong. Is in some way insulting to women, and is just a joke.

I don't know about you all but I like to dress in something OTHER THAN what everybody else is wearing, and I like skirts or leggings. I like my goth look too, but that is already limited. I LIKE makeup, and what it can do for my eyes (why don't men draw attention to their eyes?).

Now there are certain silly behaviors MtoF CDs do that I don't think help matters, and as I have said before I dislike the "sissy" look.

But please lets not say in order to respect women we have to dull down our looks. That is part of the problem with our culture now, everyone in many ways dresses dully most of the time. I feel I am pushing some big boundaries when I walk about in a decent androgynous style but with shiny black leggings on. They really stand out when in a morass of denim. LOL

[Maddie22]

I truly believe that what you wear on the outside doesn't reflect who you are on the inside. With that being said, why is it bad to like to wear nice clothing, male or female? I understand all points that are made by Pythos and Veronica, who are taking a bit of the opposite approach. Clothes don't make you feminine or masculine. You can wear "guyish or manly" clothes and be feminine. You can wear "girly or pretty" clothes and be masculine. It's your approach to life that matters the most. How you feel about equality for all individuals. Like Dr. King states, can't we view people from the content of their character rather than their skin or what they wear?

Most people don't know this, but the original skin heads were from New York. They were part of the new punk rock scene of the early 80's. They included African American's and Caucasians, and were highly motivated by equality. It wasn't until later that different factions took this look into being for white power. Now because of what society has constructed a skin head look, the original movement by them is forever lost as being a racist movement. The point is that you can't judge a book by it's cover, and just because some people have took a positive image and turned it into a negative doesn't mean every person who appears that way is like that now is a negative human being.

Like I said before, I like to look nice no matter I'm male or female. It doesn't dictate my likes, tastes, or beliefs.

[donnalee]

Most people don't know this, but the original skin heads were from New York. They were part of the new punk rock scene of the early 80's. They included African American's and Caucasians, and were highly motivated by equality. It wasn't until later that different factions took this look into being for white power. Now because of what society has constructed a skin head look, the original movement by them is forever lost as being a racist movement. The point is that you can't judge a book by it's cover, and just because some people have took a positive image and turned it into a negative doesn't mean every person who appears that way is like that now is a negative human beings.

Actually, as I recall, the originals were from Britain, known as "rockers" and rose up in opposition to the "mods" (kind of a predicessor of the hippies) in the early '60s. The closest parrallel I can come up with is Oliver Cromwell et al. vs. Royalty; mods were middle class and wore 3 piece suits and long hair and rockers were working class and were distinguished by very short or shaven hair and heavy work boots. This is recalling info I acquired at the time; apologies for any errors. The skinheads appeared in the late '70s.

[Fionax]

'The lady doth protest to much me thinks' to quote from Hamlet and is n't it all so very old hat surely? We are now in the era of post-feminism and far from burning bras the fem world is flaunting them in every colour, shape and trim you can imagine both inside and ouside their tops.The brief period when butch women in dungarees and unwashed hair lead the pack has long gone; role models from Madonna to Lady Gaga have become the icons of present day youth who have absolutely no doubts about themselves. The remarkable cloning of the dream woman as a result of the cosmetic surgeon's skills: face lifts, breast enhancement, tummy tucks, botox; hair extensions, the facility for older women to dye their greying locks and of course contraception have revolutionised the way women regard themselves. I very much doubt that any amount of cross dressers putting themsels into a special purdah will have any effect on the way women's world is evolving.

[Shananigans]

There is a string in this conversation that I really do not like. It seems that those like myself that really and truly likes skirts and other "girly" stuff, is in some way doing something wrong. Is in some way insulting to women, and is just a joke.

I don't know about you all but I like to dress in something OTHER THAN what everybody else is wearing, and I like skirts or leggings. I like my goth look too, but that is already limited. I LIKE makeup, and what it can do for my eyes (why don't men draw attention to their eyes?).

Now there are certain silly behaviors MtoF CDs do that I don't think help matters, and as I have said before I dislike the "sissy" look.

But please lets not say in order to respect women we have to dull down our looks. That is part of the problem with our culture now, everyone in many ways dresses dully most of the time. I feel I am pushing some big boundaries when I walk about in a decent androgynous style but with shiny black leggings on. They really stand out when in a morass of denim. LOL

But, no one has been saying anything about that. As the thread evolved we moved past looking at CDing in itself as anti-feminist, but discussed certain behaviors and attitudes that could be interpreted as such.

'The lady doth protest to much me thinks' to quote from Hamlet and is n't it all so very old hat surely? We are now in the era of post-feminism and far from burning bras the fem world is flaunting them in every colour, shape and trim you can imagine both inside and ouside their tops.The brief period when butch women in dungarees and unwashed hair lead the pack has long gone; role models from Madonna to Lady Gaga have become the icons of present day youth who have absolutely no doubts about themselves. The remarkable cloning of the dream woman as a result of the cosmetic surgeon's skills: face lifts, breast enhancement, tummy tucks, botox; hair extensions, the facility for older women to dye their greying locks and of course contraception have revolutionised the way women regard themselves. I very much doubt that any amount of cross dressers putting themsels into a special purdah will have any effect on the way women's world is evolving.

[pj]

Actually, as I recall, the originals were from Britain, known as "rockers" and rose up in opposition to the "mods" (kind of a predicessor of the hippies) in the early '60s.

Half right.

They started in England in the 60s and were known as skinheads from the beginning. "Rockers" wore a different costume, similar to that of 50s rockers like Elvis, Gene Vincent or Eddie Cochran.

When punk rock started in America in New York city in the 70s, it was very diverse and inclusive. In the early 80s when hardcore punk reared its ugly head in California, some of the kids shaved their heads and the punk rock skinhead movement (and costume) started up. They took on many of the violent aspects of the English skinheads of the 60s (though they were still tame in comparison), with less of the racist overtones.

Then (yes, there's more!) another decade after than, the young Aryans in America and around the world adopted the skinhead look and attitude, but added racism as a fundamental tenet. Being Aryans and all.

Note that none of this interfered with their cross dressing. To keep things relevant.

[Pythos]

Shananigans,

There were a couple of posts were there was mention of "girly" styles being a characture of women. I may have misstook the one post about the "pink fog" where sheer hosiery, skirts, and other such things were "not feminine" (which blows my mind) and that trouser socks, pants suits, were feminine. (I may have just missunderstood the meaning of that post though).

I have also read threads where there was some derision against cds that wear skirts when the GGs wear jeans. (though that is an interpolation on my part, I am short on time and need to recompose this if this response is missunderstood).

[Stephanie47]

I really think a person does not choose to be a cross dresser. I have no clue why I am a cross dresser, and, gave up trying to psychoanalyze myself years ago. I just accept it. Now, what I have decided to wear is a choice. My choice was made by the period in which I was raised. It predated women wearing pants, let alone jeans. In the 1950's few women wore pants. Many of the dresses appear to have been functional, i.e., that old beat up 'house dress' my mother wore. My en femme preference is strictly a pretty dress with appropriate undergarments, i.e., slips, girdles and stockings. I guess my fashion idols would be found on Ozzie and Harriet, Leave It to Beaver, etc. I know few women ever glided through the kitchen dressed in petticoats and a dress to prepare meals for Ward, Wally and The Beaver.

I see many really cute outfits on GG's. Low rider jeans and sexy tops with heels or boots are really attractive. If I were just starting out my life as a cross dresser, I'd have that look in my wardrobe along with those attractive dresses that hit several inches above the knee. Of course, I'd still be buying those sexy slips from the 1950's through the 1980's.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

Veronica, if you aren't going to use that Stella...mind sending it my way? That was my signature scent for a long time...I could get back into it.

I would, but I really love it myself and the bottle is sooooo pretty. I WANT to wear it, but I just don't.

And, I really enjoyed reading your post and I hope that the OP comes back to read it too. I think it was a great example of how to reconcile CDing and feminism.

Or if one identifies as a TS and is having issues reconciling their femme-ness as well. :-) Pretty much began identifying as TS back in late 2007/early 2008.

There is a string in this conversation that I really do not like. It seems that those like myself that really and truly likes skirts and other "girly" stuff, is in some way doing something wrong. Is in some way insulting to women, and is just a joke. But please lets not say in order to respect women we have to dull down our looks.

Oh no, I'm not saying that at all, in fact I'm saying the opposite. That liking skirts and whatnot doesn't make me any less of a feminist than some flannel wearing radfem.

But, no one has been saying anything about that. As the thread evolved we moved past looking at CDing in itself as anti-feminist, but discussed certain behaviors and attitudes that could be interpreted as such.

Exactly.

There were a couple of posts were there was mention of "girly" styles being a characture of women. I may have misstook the one post about the "pink fog" where sheer hosiery, skirts, and other such things were "not feminine" (which blows my mind) and that trouser socks, pants suits, were feminine. (I may have just missunderstood the meaning of that post though).

Yes, you did misunderstand. You might want to re-read the part where I define "femme" (the clothes stuff0 and "femininity" (the spiritual mental stuff) as two different things. At the time I wrote that I was having a tough time reconciling my femme-ness with feminism. I had taken the radfem's criticism of "femmes" to heart. And I was afraid of offending non-femme feminists of my acquaintance with my love of femme things.

I have also read threads where there was some derision against cds that wear skirts when the GGs wear jeans. (though that is an interpolation on my part, I am short on time and need to recompose this if this response is missunderstood).

Oh I've seen that at other places. Though I also believe that jeans can also be girly girly femme depending on accessories and whatnot. It's just that it is harder for me to get correctly gendered the less femme I am...at the moment anyway....sigh.

Veronica

[Asche]

Very interesting thread, I'm sorry I didn't see it earlier (Real Life has a way of interfering with Web life.) A lot of what I might have said has been said, and said better, by others already, but I can't resist throwing a few more vegetables into the stew.

I've long considered myself a feminist, or at least a "fellow traveller," and ever since I started actually trying wearing skirts and dresses and such (rather than just fantasizing about it), my feminist perspective has been a large part of how I deal with my desires and my integration of them into my sense of who I am. I've long questioned what most people in Western society assume about what it means to be male or be female, and find that most of what is said is pure baloney, regardless of the credentials of who says it. My questioning has gone into overdrive each time I try something new and look at myself in the mirror and then wonder: who is that that I see?

I don't see anything anti-feminist about dressing in "women's" clothes, or trying to "pass", or wearing girly or sissy fashions. If anything, when men wear these styles, it can eat away at the cultural assumption that skirts = female, etc.

What bothers me more is the way some CDs will talk as if they are being women when they do this, especially when they imply that that is what womanhood is about. There's enough propaganda out there claiming that a woman isn't a woman if she doesn't have makeup on or isn't dressed like a model (or a prostitute) or doesn't have 6 inch heels, without CDs adding to it. They may feel that they are just trying to explain how they feel, but we do not live in a vacuum. How we see ourselves and describe ourselves is both deeply affected by the culture that we live in (like fish are affected by water) and also influences it. It may seem natural to equate, say, make-up and high heels with womanhood, because that's what we've grown up with, but when we don't make the effort to examine and re-evaluate these ideas, we perpetuate them. To think and talk in sexist categories is to reinforce them.

[donnalee]

Half right.

They started in England in the 60s and were known as skinheads from the beginning. "Rockers" wore a different costume, similar to that of 50s rockers like Elvis, Gene Vincent or Eddie Cochran.

When punk rock started in America in New York city in the 70s, it was very diverse and inclusive. In the early 80s when hardcore punk reared its ugly head in California, some of the kids shaved their heads and the punk rock skinhead movement (and costume) started up. They took on many of the violent aspects of the English skinheads of the 60s (though they were still tame in comparison), with less of the racist overtones.

Then (yes, there's more!) another decade after than, the young Aryans in America and around the world adopted the skinhead look and attitude, but added racism as a fundamental tenet. Being Aryans and all.

Note that none of this interfered with their cross dressing. To keep things relevant.

Thanks for the correction and addendum. As I said in the post, this is from memory of an article I read about 50 yrs. ago.
On a totally different note, your avatar looks very much like a high school picture of my late sister; the resemblance is eerie.