Anne! I am so proud of you! First of all for you being you! Second, for starting a cat fight thats out of control! Love you! Now what did I do with that bucket of water! Hugs!
Anne! I am so proud of you! First of all for you being you! Second, for starting a cat fight thats out of control! Love you! Now what did I do with that bucket of water! Hugs!
If you don't like the way I'm livin', you just leave this long haired country girl alone:
This is quite an interesting statement, Joana. The only thing you have said all along is that I can do better? Hmmmm, let's check the record:Originally Posted by Joanagreenleaf
This was your first response to my post entitled "My Closet is My Blessed Sanctuary. Is your?"
This was your second response to my post. And your third and final post I placed within the body of the OP herein.
So is this REALLY all you have been saying? I have reviewed your posts several times, and it is funny, but I simply cannot find any constructive advice within your posts at all. All I see are ugly, hateful, and intolerant words.
Do you even understand the intent of the post you are currently replying to? You have yet to address your insulting words in any manner whatsoever. Have you even read the responses herein that agree that you were insulting and dismissive? Have you no compassion within your rigid stance? I still do not understand how I am to accept your posts for what you claim - that you are merely telling me I can do better.
Yes, Joana, I have noticed that people with weak arguments resort to arguments against the person. In fact, you are the primary culprit here.
You have no argument, other than your opinion. You generically state that if we all come out together, we will take the day and society will accept us. You have failed to offer any substance to your opinion. You have failed to cite any authority for your opinion. You have failed to logically pursue any cogent progression of thought, or analysis of consideration, within your statement. Instead, you tell me and the closet crossdressing community that we are residents of "Loserville." Do you even understand the concept of debate and civil discourse?
Moreover, what experience and expertise do you base your opinion on? Are you an elected official? Are you a community leader? Are you an activist planner? Are you a scholar? Have you even met a member of your state's legislature? Are you a consultant? A professional strategist, perhaps? How is it that you, and only you, know what is in the best interest of the closeted crossdressing community? Even beyond that, how is it that you, and only you, understand what is best for me. Your stance equates to the epitome of arrogance. Arrogance that is based upon ignorance and intolerance, which makes for a dangerous, volitile combination.
Women, gays, and minorities have been fighting for decades and centuries for equal rights. They have yet to achieve it. The obese are discriminated against. The overly thin are discriminated against. Ugly people, poor people, and uneducated people are discriminated against. If there is a subgroup of people out there, someone is going to discriminate against them. So how is it that you have all of the answers, where no one else does?
Are you an attorney? Are you well-versed within the law? Do you know what a "protected-class" is? In theory, the law protects certain protected classes from discrimination, based upon factors such as race, gender, religion, etc. Has this ended discrimination against such people? No, it has not. But guess what, gender identity is NOT a protected class. If one resides within a state that practices at-will employment, were you aware that an employee can be fired for any reason, a good reason, a bad reason, or no reason at all? An employee, however, may not be terminated if the termination is based upon a reason associated with the protected class, but being transgendered is not protected. In the United States, we are free to discriminate at will, as long as we do not do so against a protected class. We ain't a protected class.
So what is your plan for achieving equal rights and acceptance? Merely go out in public in numbers? What about legislation? Have you ever spoken to a member of your state's legislature? Have you requested certain bills be placed on your state's legislative agenda? Do you lobby? Do you even understand the legislative process, and the politics of it all? Are you planning on running for office yourself?
Ever heard the phrase "perception is everything?" There is a reason why many politicians hide skeletons in their closets - because they know they will not otherwise win an election. And if our own representatives are hiding their skeletons, what makes you think they will be willing to take up such a potentially controversersial topic as transgendered issues? Some have the courage to do so, and more in time will. But not because someone like YOU calls them up and says if you do not take up this bill, you are a citizen of "Loserville." You need more than that. You need an actual plan. You have yet to articulate any. Unless, of course, your plan merely is to insult those who disagree with you. And good luck getting anywhere with that strategy, because that always works, right?
You are quite naive in your assessment of me, and the situation in general. Again, you know nothing about me, and from what little I know about you, and your style of "debate" and "discourse," I already know more than I care to know about you.
You state I can do "better." Your definition of the term "better" must be quite different than mine, because I think I am doing pretty damn good as it is.
Going back to the intent of this thread, again, you have yet to address your ugly, insulting, and offensive words. Do you plan on addressing the issue? Or is it your intent to continue down the low road?
I merely ask that members respect each other, and debate and discuss their differences and opinions with class, diginity, and respect. I am heartened by the vast majority of the responses herein. There are many fantastic members, and hopefully those members that are less than respectful will take a look in the mirror, reassess, and treat their fellow members, regadless of perceived differences, with kindness.
I like reading every word of Anne's posts, FWIW. I'm really glad she's here and participating.
> I consider this a support site as opposed to an activism site. Perhaps the mods could set up an activism section?
> I don't care if crossdressing is widely accepted in my lifetime or not. I still go out when I feel like and that makes me happy. In fact, I like the rush of being a woman out and about. I do what I want regardless of the haters. I'm unbelievably happy in my life (evident in my photo?) and I consider that a pretty good definition of success.
> I think Pythos is awesome. Such honest effort to clarify thinking is so wonderful.
Last edited by Amanda22; 06-16-2011 at 03:06 PM. Reason: Wanted to add another thought (big surprise, I know)
The rampant illogic that is flowing in this thread astounds me! Let's see if we can straighten out some of it:
Let's take one typical CD: Here she is, completely open with her SO, respecting her SO's limitations (which might include not announcing her feminine self to the world), and yet, some in this thread see this somehow as a negative effect on the perception of the transgendered!!! ???
HELLOOOOO!!! If this CD is completely closeted, NO ONE knows about it, and therefore has absolutely NO impact on the population in general!! They are completely transparent! Only actions IN PUBLIC can affect a public perception!
Sheesh.
Secondly, someone who is completely transparent to the public cannot be faulted for anything negative. Effectively, in the public eye they don't exist. No one...and I do mean no one...has the right to tell them how to run their lives or even cast a negative glance in their direction. They are hurting no one!
In fact, those who are unhappy with closeted CDs are being very effective about helping them to STAY in the closet by being negative about their decision to stay there. It would only be encouragement, and not castigation, that will help more CDs to venture out into the public arena.
So, what do we have: We have a population of closeted CDs who hurt no one, and we have that same potential army of people who might make us a little more visible in the population (hmmm, how are we visible when we wish to "pass" .... hmmm???) but who will only be helped to go into the public eye if they are not scolded about their choices.
Thus, why not say something like, "I fully support your right and decision to keep your transgendered nature as a private part of your life. I do hope that you can continue to help shape people's opinions about transgenderism in a positive way, and if the desire to venture out into the pulic arena strikes you, I hope you feel you have the support of all of us to do so."
Might that not work better?
tina
That's exactly what I feel. When I first joined, there was one very vocal person with the opinion that society, family, marriage, and everyone else be damned - they were going to go out there to change the world, and if the world, family, and wife didn't like it, well then, too bad! She definitely put the 'ack' in activist, so to speak.If you didn't share her views (the horror!), she would unapologetically tear you down to let the world see what a spineless, good-for-nothing waste of a pretty dress you were. What a sad, bitter person she was. She only seemed happy when she was 'debating' someone else. Pity.
Amanda, I'm like you. I dress for fun, not the future. I dress for me, not for those to come. Short-sighted? Slighting the generations to come? Perhaps. I say let them fight their own battles. It'll toughen the little sissies up! (tongue in cheek, people. Climb down
Kathi
[SIZE="2"]I’m not singling YOU out, Pythos (I hope you know me better than that), but your words did jump-start my reaction. It may sound like I’m addressing you personally, but you happen to be on one side of this discussion, and I’m on the other. Up until now I never actually saw this closeted vs. “out” conflict – I had heard about it only through the words of other members. This is ridiculous, counter-productive, non-supportive, and makes one feel that crossdressing may not be worth the effort in the first place, if this is what the “community” is all about. Saying that a closeted crossdresser does harm to the transgendered community in some way is like me, a semi-closeted crossdresser, boldly stating that those taking their expression to the streets is somehow injurious to our “cause.” Equally ridiculous, wouldn’t you say? I would never dream of saying such a thing to another crossdresser of a different feather, but there you go – I’m conscious that there are other types of CD’ers, all with their own agenda, according to what each individual desires to achieve. There are PLENTY of closeted crossdressers on this site – I’ve probably been out and about more than most of them, but I’m not going to use that fact against someone who may have good cause for remaining in the closet. A few closeted souls will not make a huge difference to our community as a whole, IMHO. The fractious nature of this lonely island should be the #1 issue for discussion here, and it’s downright alarming, to say the least…
PS - I'm sorry it takes me so long to reply, but the closet IS comfortable...[/SIZE]
[SIZE="2"]I think you’re comparing apples to oranges, unless you are inferring that crossdressing needs to be placed alongside other addictions like gambling and alcoholism. Are you? Have you ever considered the fact that "hiding" may help the one who is hiding? I think it’s a major accomplishment to take pains to NOT hurt someone, and that, by itself, should be regarded in a positive light and recognized as such. Of course, I should talk – I don’t have a SO, or children, or friends to hide from. I’m interested in self-preservation, not confrontation. Some of us are not cut out to be the vanguard you wish to be, but I respect your position on this divisive issue …[/SIZE]Hiding DOES NOT help anyone. It helps continue the idea that crossdressers are ashamed of what they do. They are hurting NO ONE, and yet they hide as if they are committing some heinous act. Meanwhile, the drunk ruining the family, or the gambler wasting the money is COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY out in the open!!!.
Last edited by Nigella; 06-16-2011 at 04:09 PM. Reason: Referenced point has been deleted
Whether a CD is closeted or out shouldn't really make a difference should it? We all have to have forms of self-preservation to mantain our identity. We only tell certain people about certain aspects of our lives. Not everyone knows the situations I face b/c I am selective or "closeted" in whom I choose to trust with my personal information b/c misuse of it could bring harm to me. If a CD isn't comfortable then who is he hurting until he decides to come out? I would think it would be more devistating to him to come out before he is ready.
All is as it should be and until the time we are ready to change then we must do what we must do to survive.
Well said tina
What a Novel idea. Lend support while expressing hope for the future. I Think someone should start a web site called Crossdressers . com. A place for support and acceptance. A place were we don't have to be afraid of being attacked when we express an opinion
See how ingenious it is to just stick to the OP and make a response without being negative.
Oh well I doubt it will ever happen simply because some have become Queens.
Drama Queens that is
Anne,
If you don't want to participate, you don't have to.
Your call on how much time and effort you put into this discussion, not mine.
Last edited by Joanagreenleaf; 06-16-2011 at 06:01 PM.
Riiiiiiight!
And when she puts lots of time and effort into it, you claim that you don't want to read it as it it too long. You are just a conundrum wrapped inside an engima, wrapped inside a troll, aren't you? I know you're enjoying this.
Kathi
+1 to Anne2345's fangirl count.
More substantially though, and this may be a consequence of life in a college town, but I don't see a need for activism and the like. I have never faced an iota of discrimination for the cross-dressing habit, but I treat it as a hobby and don't do it where it's inappropriate. I have no burning urge to declare to the world that, "I'm abnormal and you'll just have to deal with it!"
Regardless of transgender status, people have a responsibility to secure their livelihoods as well as those of their dependents. Such must take primacy over any idealism or cause. Clarion calls for self-sacrifice reminisce of a duly castigated idealism treated in Atlas Shrugged.
If people choose to behave unprofessionally, there is a pretty simple way to deal with them - don't feed the trolls.
I agree that there is need for reform as concerns the treatment of those deciding to transition or even walk around with dedicated facial hair while in a dress, but that's not my battle, and it doesn't seem to be Anne's either.
- Amelia
Riiiiiiight!
And when she puts lots of time and effort into it, you claim that you don't want to read it as it it too long. You are just a conundrum wrapped inside an engima, wrapped inside a troll, aren't you? I know you're enjoying this.
Kathi
Kathi is 100% right. Why are you even here Joanagreenleaf?
I find it unbelievably stupid to even argue about this topic. Yet here i am contributing....
Life is all about dealing with the choices we make for ourselves
When, where, and what you do is a choice that you make for yourself. Anne, Dont ever let anyone make you feel down about yourself when you are perfectly happy with the choices you have made for yourself. Whatever choices you make, that define your own happiness for the better, are Yours alone.....Dont let the bigots that call themselves part of our support group ruin the happiness you have. Its is apparent to the rest of us that they are truly unhappy with who they are themselves, by how they post derogotory and negatively charged comments towards those who support them in the decisions they make for THEMSELVES....
Just to clarify.
Bigot : a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group with hatred and intolerance
The support group is full of negative people from all aspects of the TG umbrella..negative comments like the one you posted in the OP are as abundant here as they are anywhere else on the net.....but there are some incredible people here who would support anyone in who they aspire to be.
Intolerance of another persons choices only helps to keep the hatred flowing in full force. No, "tough love" or "Hardcore reality dose" is going to have a positive outcome to another support forum member. By making such negative statements you are only compounding the problem of acceptance among our community.
Acceptance: the act of taking or receiving something offered.
So, Anne, Enjoy your choices... I support you.....and i accept your choice.
Trying to Teach Empathy,
-Donni-
Hi Anne,
I don't often reply these days... Like Abby, I have left Cding behind with "grace".... for a few this is the inevitable result of integration.
Your thread compells me to submit my opinion for your consideration; to continue,
Having been active with certain groups in the past, and having observed this forum for a year prior to my signing up, I have observed from time to time a "ringer" appears whose only purpose is to cause as much disruption as possible.
I have also read all of this persons posts, and it appears to me the writings exhibit little if any sense of compassion or regard to others feelings. The tone is abrasive and confrontational as he renders plenty of strong opinions. The approach and writing style is similar to one who was here about a year ago.
Quite frankly, anybody else's opinion(including mine) as to what brings satisfaction/happiness to you (or another) is entirely irrelevant.
However, there are plenty of members here who understand and relate to your current circumstances.
I have put the "culprit" on my ignore list and suggest you do the same. Feeding "negativity" is counterproductive.
Your sanctuary is your secret garden, and the placement of your gardens walls is up to you as well as to whom you let enter your garden. The garden will evolve on your terms...
Best Wishes, dd
Last edited by Deedee Dupree; 06-16-2011 at 07:58 PM.
WElllllll, that is until they get caught. Then it can be a very bad thing.HELLOOOOO!!! If this CD is completely closeted, NO ONE knows about it, and therefore has absolutely NO impact on the population in general!! They are completely transparent! Only actions IN PUBLIC can affect a public perception!
"I am not altogether on anyone's side as no one is all together on my side"
Tree beard. Lord of the Rings, The Two Towers.
In a means to prevent beingI am keeping my opinions
...Its my only means to ensure it
who
But I will say that Ithe closeted..the supporters of the closeted and any citizen of 'Loserville'...
Marissa
"You better look hard and look twice,
...is that me, baby or just a brilliant disguise?"- The Boss
Nicely put Marissa! Thank you! I think I need a bigger bucket of water!
So many on here in this post seem to or are defining "closet" for which it really is. A place to hang clothes and shoes and all. Why is this going on? When the word "closet" is used in this post and the other post’s by the originator, she isn't referring to the "closet" in it's perfect definition in Funk and Wagnell. She is referring to staying home. And in that home where she is either King or Queen, the op is talking about staying inside and the safety of her home and not treading out into the public where so many of “US” are ridiculed and / or attacked, (depending on what area we live in),,So please for those on here that are participating in this topic, please ,when referring to the “closet”, please understand that the “closet” is the thing that crossdressers’ refer to when they are the stay at home types, and there’s nothing wrong with that. I mean how dare some of us go into
defining the “closet” as though some of us didn’t know. Hell, I think everyone on here that defines to us what a damn closet is,,,,is so insulting to our intellect., as to to define to us what the “closet” is. How dare these types.!! Just look back and you’ll see these people or types of people that go in to detail as to what a damn closet is. Check them out, it’s the ones that tell us that it is a small room that holds our clothes and shoes and other things. I know as well as many others on here what the OP was talking about when she referred about the “closet”. Are some of us so dumb that we lost what the OP was talking about when she referenced the “closet”, just to have someone here describe what a “closet” is? It ‘s like when some people say “jumping on the band wagon”. It’s not really wagon with wheels, how can some on here be so damn off topic as to define what a “closet” it’s ,like we do not know? Can we not get along here?????????? I’ve been on the internet before it was called the internet, and I have learned that you can be on any social site (sight), and on a beautiful; cloud free day, I could say(on the internet), “ The sky is blue”, and there will be people that will come back and say, oh hell no it’s not, it’s shades of grey, etc etc, etc. I used to think that as guys, we were ONE, then I learned we were not, then as a crossdresser I thought I had found my calling to a unique crossdresser community when I found this site, then found that we were just as diverse as the stars in the sky. I’m about love, honor, peace, dignity, morals, live and let live, brotherhood of man, sisterhood to sisters, family, friends, GOD ( Father of Jesus Christ), and yes, I even respect atheists , even though they argue their points of righteousness without ANY foundations to support their “opinions” about what they perceive as right and wrong. I’m not only somewhat ashamed or embarrassed that I’m CD, but just a little ashamed that I’m human. I understood the OP’s every word and thought; I was with her all the way with her every word. How could any of you be so disrespectful to this newcomer to this site? This question doesn’t apply to all, but how can some of you with a decent I.Q., come in here and define what a “closet” is? Like I or Anne didn’t have a clue? And why can some of you not ………….remember when you stayed at home fearing to go outdoors or from the “closet” Then those of you that go out all the time and say ,no one says anything to me., and then get on this OP Anne and crack on her for explaining why she prefers to stay in the “closet”. As a result of the many threads similar to this one, I feel so all alone again. It’s sad, so sad, it’s a sad, sad situation, and it’s getting more and more absurd, (Bernie Taupin). Do I belong here anymore or does Annie? I and we have a right to our opinions, there is no right and wrong. Let us all on here agree or disagree,,,,,but still maintain respect for eachother.
Love & respect..Tara Rose
Last edited by Tara D. Rose; 06-16-2011 at 10:25 PM. Reason: typos,/grammer
I happen to fall into the, "It's much better to come out of the closet" group. HOWEVER, I don't feel I know a single person well enough on here, or their situation well enough on here to have the audacity to tell THEM what to do. There is a name for that, it's called "Arrogance."
If someone was telling me how to live my life, I too, would tell them to go pound sand.
I'll try to bring a different perspective to all of this.
There are different argument styles. Some forums (political or academic for example) can be quite confrontational. A stronger writing style, if well written, can actually score points. People well versed in argument can take a few barbs as well as dish them out. It's almost expected in some places.
CD.com isn't like that, obviously. We're a support forum even though we disagree on certain topics. So, I wonder if a newcomer who might be accustomed to a different forum culture, might not at first respond the way that he or she responds in different places? And then when confronted, might not see it as an invigorating exercise rather than realize he or she has hurt someone's feelings?
This may or may not be Joanna's case, I don't know. But, she is new. So, maybe after this thread we could see if she makes any overtures for friendship and if she does, then let bygones be bygones and start again on a new footing?
Just trying to be the peace maker here.
Reine
I'm in!
Kathi
Joanna, How many people are using your account? One of the others, recently posted
I'm not sure which of the two of you opened this account, but you should be aware that it is against forum rules to allow others to use your account.
Check out this link if you are wondering about joining Safe Haven.
This above all: To thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any
Galileo said "You cannot teach a man anything" and they accuse ME of being sexist
Never ascribe to malice that which can be easily explained by sheer stupidity
So I guess this is not the argument clinic.
"I'd like to have an argument please."
"I am not altogether on anyone's side as no one is all together on my side"
Tree beard. Lord of the Rings, The Two Towers.
The moderator has suggested that I refrain from making certain responses to this thread, and I agree.
I refer you all to the new post I made yesterday concerning, "Living The Good Lie."
I think much of what is said in that article is more productive than most of the things being said here.
I have said, several times, all I can say about the OP's original postings. The long response by the OP about "Are you an attorney?" etc. will do nothing to handle the OPs personal issues at home - which I think need more of the OP's time than this forum does.
Time will tell how wise it was and is for the OP to write and expound on such topics as, "My closet is my sanctuary." Clearly it wasn't and isn't... I have serious doubts about the outcome of such a way of dealing with reality, and I have expressed them for the OP, and others, to consider.
This is a new forum to me, yet my impression so far is that it tends to promote and favor repetitive posts about, "I just got my first panties!" and, "Do you think she knows?" and, "Should I tell?" rather than encourage and support actual problem solving. Maybe the world needs that, maybe not.
In this case, the OP was "nearly" outed by a family friend, then spent several days defending the notion that they were/are entitled to stay in the closet they had just, or, nearly, been dragged out of...
Since the horse was already out of the barn, as we say here in Texas, arguing that the horse should have been left alone is a waste of of the OPs time and effort when it comes to the OP's personal situation. The "near" outing should serve as a notice to do something besides close and lock the empty barn's door.
And, there is no "next time" in the OPs case. Either the OP has been discovered, or, they now keenly understand they will be - and the price of not dealing with these known facts will keep going up... Fear... I can think of no other reason why the OP would drag this discussion out so long against myself and others, instead of work out a solution to a pressing problem at home.
The problem the OP has, as I understand things, is not ultimately the crossdressing, family, friends, or, "society." It is, as many other posts have shown, the deception being practiced by the OP against the OP, the OP's family, the OP's future, etc.
Frankly, I can see little for the OP to do other than either give up crossdressing, or, to change how crossdressing is managed in their life.
That's about all I can say about this particular thread and how it has gone - which is not a new topic or a new response in my life...
I've been discussing this sort of thing - usually brought about by some personal crisis like the OPs, for about thirty years now with any number of TS/TG/CD/Bi/Gay people - who would wish the world was different, but slowly have to understand that it isn't, and won't be, until they change.
Frankly, given the number of very wealthy and very successful gays and lesbians that most of us could list easily, starting with Ellen, Rosie, and Doogie, I am surprised that there is still so much "doom and gloom" about this sort of thing.
I do wonder, however, what will become of crossdressers in the next twenty years or so... From what I've seen of life, there will be less support or tolerance for CDs in the gay and lesbian community (among others), mostly because CDs bring too little of value to the gay and lesbian community, or, - because CDs are generally so tangled up in their own webs - to anyone else.
Really, this tempest in a teapot on this thread has gone nowhere because the closet is nowhere to go. Gays and lesbians are now openly getting jobs, buying houses, and getting married. CDs, already having most of that all along, are still doing very little to advance their own issues, so what use can they be to others?
I have been asked several times in this thread, "What are you doing here?"
Maybe not much more than serving as a target for those with, seriously, nothing better to do - and no place else to do it.
I have been asked the same question by people in the gay pride parades, several of which are coming up in my area again soon...
In the past, I have said:
"I'm here because anyone who crosses a certain line in life, winds up on this side of the line we're both now on."
I'm not changing my response to that question yet, but I'm thinking I may.
Crossdressing, as a subset of life, is beginning to look like an immature response to life.
I guess you can still learn something new every day... It may just depend on how much attention you pay to what goes on around you - not just what's in you.
"Yes it is!"
and
"No you wouldn't!"
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