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Thread: Civility – twin sister of Compromise

  1. #1
    Complex Lolita...
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    Civility – twin sister of Compromise

    [SIZE="2"]Now and then you read an impassioned plea for civility on this site, usually because somebody doesn’t understand or appreciate the idea of civility, and they have written something that has hurt someone’s feelings, meaning a fellow (or sister) crossdresser. Luckily, little Civility has a twin sister named Compromise – I would like you all to meet her, because she exists squarely between the two sides of whatever “discussion” that may ensue from avoiding civility in the first place...

    OK – you’re a certain type of crossdresser, and I am another type of crossdresser. We are either here because we are crossdressers trying to communicate with other CD’ers, or we are here to better understand WHY we feel the desire to crossdress, and what to ultimately do about it. There are many serious questions to ponder, such as: are there others like me, is it OK to crossdress, how can I stop, how can I continue, how do I tell a loved one, and so on and so forth. All meaningful topics for discussion, and the shy participant in any discussion, or any conversation that it generates, hopes to achieve support in some small way from this obviously very experienced group of crossdressers. Many members are civil to a fault, helpful and generous, polite, friendly, and mindful of another person’s struggles with things that can be very hard to understand. I have been fortunate to benefit from the generosity of others on this site, and I maintain a presence here to help as best I can, even though I am not as experienced as some on this board. Basically, I’m here to say, “It’s OK...”

    With this in mind, I am attentive to the reality of this place. Some people do not respect others, either because of their own struggles with crossdressing, or a lack of appreciation for someone else’s direction, or simply the way they may write things in an attempt to communicate as best they can. Lack of civility, that’s what I’m talking about, and it saddens me when someone has to take the time to plead for courtesy, decorum, amenity, or tactfulness. The meek do not wish to inherit the world, they merely wish to exist, as others do, in this world of crossdressing, and be accepted just as they are. Even though pride is a deadly sin, swallowing one’s pride shouldn’t be necessary in a place like this, since we have all, by and large, been cast adrift from society and exist a world apart. What is the alternative? WE ARE, and it would be wonderful if we could all co-exist as equals while we are briefly together. Unmannerliness, immodesty, and impropriety come along from time to time, and I really try hard to NOT answer the door, since these graceless entities are not welcome. How does one best respond to something you don’t like? Enter compromise...

    Compromise is a trade-off, a concession, or a 50-50 deal, trying to find middle ground during a particularly heated discussion. Some would call it a cop-out, but those are the individuals who prefer lack of civility over civility. Can we come to an understanding? Is it worth trying, or are you the type of person who must always be right, seeing compromise as a form of surrender? I’ll tell you, I’m interested in harmony, a softening of edges (or a stance), leading to an accord where all will benefit in some way, and when I say “all” I mean the membership. Whenever I read a post that incites me to write an impassioned reply, I’ll write it, then shut off my laptop and walk away before submitting it. A miracle occurs – within 15 minutes, I completely lose the desire to post the offending blurb, and it gathers dust until I delete it. I feel like I’ve spared the site a BIG argument now and then by this simple practice of NOT submitting something. Write it, read it, get it out of your system, and get rid of the desire to be uncivil in this special place...

    That is a good example of a compromise, since I gave in to a desire to write something out of character, and then promptly deleted it when it no longer had any “bite” or meaning. I am attentive to the many types of crossdressers on this site, meaning I am aware of them, so I take pains with any words I submit. Now and then I over-reach, as everyone does, but you can see this entire written exercise as a struggle with male aggressiveness, male stubbornness, and male knee-jerk reaction, all things I seek to limit by dressing in my female clothes and entering a state away from masculinity. Of course, not everyone appreciates another member’s “take” on things, but I would expect a certain civility to be present at all times, built upon compromise and a tacit acknowledgement that none of us have ALL the answers. I certainly don’t, but I know YOU don’t either, so I’m sure we can find common ground amidst the proceedings and learn from each other. I keep hearing this recurring word “community,” especially when one (civil) human being is trying to understand the ideas of another (rude) human being, all within this alternative gathering of disparate sensibilities, positions, and opinions. To me, the idea of a “community” is heartening, but it exists as a mythical entity I may never actually see, for one reason or another. Without this site, I would have precious little access to the transgendered community, so I try to maintain a certain civility at all times, since I sincerely respect other crossdressers across the board, regardless of what variation of CD they may be. My own longed-for civility can be seen as a compromise, or deference, because of the effect of crossdressing – it’s good to put the MALE away and meet others who concur with that feeling...

    To look at this another way, I do not wish to compromise my position by hurting the feelings of others. To dishonor, embarrass, or confuse another crossdresser taking the time to pour out his or her heartfelt words for all to see would be extremely uncivil, unkind, and downright rude. A lot of special people, many of them my friends, have left this site, done in by lack of civility or indifference that others dole out by the shovelful. Pardon me if I don’t see the point, or the need, for all this negative activity, but I feel for those who struggle to be heard deep inside this community we inhabit. I suppose it really doesn’t make any difference if I’m here, or you’re here, or she is here, or he is here, but this place is like an oasis for us crossdressers who lived through a lonely time without any communication, acceptance, or simple conversation between two (or more) kindred spirits. We came out of a void of empty darkness, into a dimly illuminated world that could use a good polishing. I’ll do my part, but please help me by being civil to ALL types of crossdressers, even if you cannot understand how THEY see things – just think about compromise, and meet the other party halfway...

    To those who would say, “TOO LONG,” I invite you to read this OP in installments, you know, as a "compromise" of sorts. Better yet, meet me under the shade of that tree over yonder, across the river of understanding we must both cross together...

    Are you willing to Compromise, for the good of Civility? They go hand in hand, my friend...
    [/SIZE]

  2. #2
    Gold Member Alice Torn's Avatar
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    Dittos Rush..uh, I mean Freddy.

  3. #3
    The 100th sheep GaleWarning's Avatar
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    One does not compromise, when it comes to issues of ethics.

  4. #4
    Fashionista VeronicaMoonlit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frédérique View Post
    To those who would say, “TOO LONG,” I invite you to read this OP in installments, you know, as a "compromise" of sorts. Better yet, meet me under the shade of that tree over yonder, across the river of understanding we must both cross together...
    <joke>TL;DNR</joke>

    Actually I don't often read your posts because of your choice of font and font size, they are not as easy to read as the forum defaults, especially for those of us who may be older or have not so good vision.

    Imagine if my posts looked like this:

    [size="1"]
    Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.[/size]


    Or worse:

    [size="2"]
    Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.[/size]


    Dump the Book Antiqua, yes it's classic and a touch "pretty", but just go with the forum default, okay?

    Are you willing to Compromise, for the good of Civility? They go hand in hand, my friend...
    That depends.

    Veronica
    Last edited by VeronicaMoonlit; 06-17-2011 at 08:44 PM.
    If you believe in it, makeup has a magic all it's own -- Sooner or Later (TV movie)
    We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be?- Marianne Williamson
    Have I also not said that "This Thing of Ours" makes some of us a bit "Barefoot in the Head"? Well, it does.

  5. #5
    Gold Member Alice Torn's Avatar
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    The last two posters have a point. Where do we draw the line, when compromising? When do we "answer a fool according to his folly?" And, when, do we "answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes?" I agree, that tolerance is crucial for this site. The purposefully hostile, just plain mean posts, the moderators need to deal with.

  6. #6
    Senior Age Member sissystephanie's Avatar
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    Frederique,

    Once again, Way Too Long!! I do agree with you that Civility and Compromise have to go together!! But you use way too much description that is unnecessary!! And please, as someone else said, use a different font and size!! Your post are really hard for us old fogies to read!!

    But you did make good points, and I applaud your effort!!
    Stephanie

    Lady on the outside, but man underneath!

  7. #7
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    Your post are really hard for us old fogies to read!!
    A required tool for reading small font..........HOLD the L CTRL button and scroll the mouse wheel

    No thanks required!

    Freddy i love the text dont change it! It adds a demeanor of soft thought to a blank canvas....

  8. #8
    Addicted To Lipstick donnatracey's Avatar
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    I will thank you anyway, Miss Donni! Your tip was a welcome relief to my tired, old eyes........

    And Frederique does make some excellent pts............

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    Oh great!!

    Hold the left Control key and scroll the mouse!

    Great! Just Great! What a mistake THAT was. Now my computer is all messed up and I can't read anything!

    Just how am I supposed to get bacvk to where I was?

    S

  10. #10
    Female Illusionist! docrobbysherry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VeronicaMoonlit View Post
    <joke>TL;DNR</joke>

    Actually I don't often read your posts because of your choice of font and font size, they are not as easy to read as the forum defaults, especially for those of us who may be older or have not so good vision.

    Imagine if my posts looked like this:

    [size="1"]
    Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.[/size]


    Or worse:

    [size="2"]
    Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.[/size]


    Dump the Book Antiqua, yes it's classic and a touch "pretty", but just go with the forum default, okay?



    That depends.

    Veronica
    Well said, Veronica!

    I can only add, maybe Freddie is testing us with her filibuster posts. Because she rites so well, the "ladies" among us will read her entire post in one sitting!
    While guys like me, even if we like her style and agree with her, JUST WON'T HAVE THE PATIENCE to get to her punchline!
    U can't keep doing the same things over and over and expect to enjoy life to the max. When u try new things, even if they r out of your comfort zone, u may experience new excitement and growth that u never expected.

    Challenge yourself and pursue your passions! When your life clock runs out, you'll have few or NO REGRETS!

  11. #11
    Aspiring Member Amanda22's Avatar
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    I love Frederique's posts, but yes, I have to wait until I have time to read them. Then I almost always forget to come back to them so I never read them. I get very wordy in my posts, so sorry about that. Conciseness and brevity are an art I'd like to learn.

    I deal with email all day and I noticed this in someone's signature: http://three.sentenc.es/. I find people frequently miss my point in emails because they're just too long! I can do better...

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    Gold Member Cynthia Anne's Avatar
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    I love you Fredurique for your great insight once again! Theirs so much hatred in the world for being differant! I guess we shouldn't exspect no differant from 'girls' that have something in common! Sorry but, I do exspect somthing different! How can we exspect the world to respect us when we can't respect each other! (newsflash!) With one click I CAN CHANGE THE FONT SIZE OF WHAT I'M READING TO ANY SIZE I PREFER! Hugs!
    If you don't like the way I'm livin', you just leave this long haired country girl alone:

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    LMAO

    Great! Just Great! What a mistake THAT was. Now my computer is all messed up and I can't read anything!

    Just how am I supposed to get bacvk to where I was?
    Just hold ctrl and scroll the other way......

    Still giggling,
    -Donni-

  14. #14
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    Frédérique, It looks as though we are in a "Dick and Jane reader" environment. ah, well.
    See Dick compromise, see Jane react. See Veronica change the subject. see...., well, you get the idea.
    It ain't easy bein'....you know.

  15. #15
    Adventuress Kate Simmons's Avatar
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    The real skill is being able to get along with others while not compromising who you are as a person.
    Second star to the right and straight on till morning

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    Aspiring Member Danni Renee's Avatar
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    Frederique, I have spent a lot of time recently (the past two years really) thinking about this topic you have brought up. My thoughts have been directed on areas other than crossdressing but after reading your post (in one sitting by the way) I agree with you that civility is lacking – not just in some areas of this forum but in the United States as a whole. For us the focus is on our crossdressing but the same dynamics are at work throughout the country. Look at the debate on health care, or the wars, and now the national debt. A lack of civility is everywhere and it is all we see – little wonder that this lack of civility bleeds its way into the forum as well.

    We are a society where the loudest, most outrageous voice is the voice that is heard. I blame this on the media and its insatiable appetite for headlines and the hidden agenda of advertising dollars and profits. Please bear with me as I try to provide an illustration.

    In our world there are 100 people. Out of this 100, 10 really like cats and 10 really hate cats. The other 80 are somewhere in the middle. The local paper writes a simple informative article about cats-complete unbiased. The cat lovers read the article and say I am glad and put the paper down and go about their business. The cat haters read the article and immediately fire off a letter to the newspaper telling it how much they hate cats. The newspaper, responding to the dominate voice they hear now publishes one of the letters to appease the cat haters (and hopefully sell more papers to cat haters). The cat haters are happy but the cat lovers are now angry and in turn fire off their letters to the paper. Of course their letters are published because now you have both cat lovers and cat haters buying papers (revenue is pouring in) to see what is said about each other. And oh by the way, 40 of the 80 people who could care less are also buying papers now just to see the argument. The newspaper, seeing all the editions selling has it in its best interest to stroke the fires of discontent to keep the sales of newspaper at a high.

    Feel free to substitute CNN/Fox News/MSNBC for newspapers but the point is the same – we are marketed incivility on a daily basis to the point that is the only way we communicate. And if we as a nation continue down this road it is going to end badly.

    I am sorry I took this post out of the crossdressing realm but this lack of civility really is becoming pervasive in society and I wanted to take an opportunity to address it in my own way. Here on the forum we can at least close out and walk away (I tend to stay away from most negative posts myself). Unfortunately in the real world that is not an option.
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  17. #17
    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    I am guilty of a lack of civility at times.. I get overheated in some discussions, and I usually know I've overdone it when I'm lying in bed at night actually thinking over a post!!!
    I admit it. If possible, I try to find common ground before getting into where i disagree, but not always..

    Doc, the reason you can't get to the punchline is because there is no punchline.

    It is painfully obvious that there is really no reason to be uncivil, it's not nice...
    but it's a logical stretch to tie being a jack ass to compromising....compromise what? my opinion of what you said? my moral beliefs? my gender identity? i guess you can say that not posting is a civil way to compromise, but then you've given up your voice.

    The avalanche of words in the OP is uncivil in and of itself. I suggest more pithiness and less tautologies and magniloquence to the OP. ahem

  18. #18
    Member Cassidy's Avatar
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    Interesting,

    Steven Covey calls it 'Think Win-Win' in his Seven Habits books and CDs. As with most things it is mis-used.

    There is much to be said about civility. There is also much to be said about good manners. Somewhere along the way rude and obnoxious behavior replaced the simplicity of good manners.

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    There is also much to be said about good manners. Somewhere along the way rude and obnoxious behavior replaced the simplicity of good manners.
    People use manners to show others that they have respect for one another. It is a life lesson that is diminishing slowly in modern culture.

    People just demand respect nowadays, rather than reciprocating it

    -Donni-

  20. #20
    Gold Member Alice Torn's Avatar
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    Danni, Very well said! Donni, also! Maybe we shaould all leave incivility to the Three Stooges, and pro Wrestling! A society where incivility is the norm, will eventually collapse, and end in slavery.

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    Member Speck's Avatar
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    Communication Styles

    Nice try Frederique! I have wondered for a very long time why I find this section of the forum so difficult. I don't really have an answer but I try to stay away from this section as much as possible. It's kind of sad actually because there are so many people, like you who say profound things and those people help me to understand more, not just about CDing. So every once in a while, I put my toe back in and hope for the best, like now.

    I'm a member of FAB. The members come from different walks of life. We have very different perspectives on sooooo many things. Our life circumstances are as different as can be. And the TGs we know couldn't be more different. And yet, we communicate respectfully but with honesty and clarity. There have been disagreements but I can't say that I've ever compromised my ethics, my position or myself in any way. I think the other FAB members would say the same thing.

    I ask myself why that is. Is it because we have female gender identities? That would suggest that all those here who feel 100% female on the inside should have a particular style of communication but I've been on the transexual section and I don't think that's the case. In fact, there are post op transexuals who communicate in a very, very different style than I've described within FAB.

    Is it because we have gender consonance and don't have an axe to grind with the hand that life has dealt us? Likely not since many of the women in FAB seem to have dealt with all kinds of adversity and I'm not including dealing with a CDing SO as "adversity" so please, don't take offence. I suspect either you or someone here will take offence to something that I've said or write a post that is so "flip" it will be maddening. So I'll retreat to FAB until the next time I dare to put my toe in the rough waters.

    Speck

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    Quote Originally Posted by clayfish View Post
    One does not compromise, when it comes to issues of ethics.
    I disagree. I submit that if you're not willing to compromise, you'll soon find that there aren't any ethics left, anyway. You'll just have a bunch of people bashing each others' heads in an attempt to "prove" they're right.

    I base this on bitter experience.

  23. #23
    Complex Lolita...
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    Quote Originally Posted by VeronicaMoonlit
    Actually I don't often read your posts because of your choice of font and font size, they are not as easy to read as the forum defaults, especially for those of us who may be older or have not so good vision. Dump the Book Antiqua, yes it's classic and a touch "pretty", but just go with the forum default, okay?
    [SIZE="2"]Forum defaults would constitute conformity, darling, and we can’t have THAT, can we?

    Actually, I think you’re testing my civility in a roundabout way. From my perspective, if you really wanted to read my posts, you would find a way to do it, and not blame your purported indifference on trifles like font size and style. A couple of weeks ago I tried making the font BIGGER, but it just looked like I was shouting to be heard (or seen, in this case). I’m not interested in screaming from the pulpit, but I AM allowed to whisper, since the latter is my style – changing one’s chosen style to accommodate the wishes of others would be a lot like a MtF crossdresser wearing men’s clothing to make everyone more comfortable. Personally, I would rather wear a pretty skirt and make a few individuals UNcomfortable – perhaps you will be able to understand that analogy...

    I wish to thank MissDonni for her advice and encouragement! I’m not sure exactly how people view this site on a day-to-day basis, but I view these words on a laptop equipped with a zoom feature and a magnifier “accessory.” I never use either, since I can see things clearly – the words on my word processor and the submitted words on the site look exactly the same to me. When I paint a picture I hold the brush gently, and, since I wish to do the same with writing, there are only so many ways to express oneself with a handful of available fonts – as with any form of visual expression, a viewer will either make the effort to read the words or not. I understand, but please don’t ask me to change – this is as important as the desire to dress a certain way, and you wouldn’t want me to change that, now would you? If you are persistently bothered by my unreadable verbosity, you can deposit me in your “ignore list” and avoid the issue entirely as a form of civil compromise...

    BTW, I appreciate anyone who makes an effort to read my prose…
    [/SIZE]


    Quote Originally Posted by Danni Renee
    We are a society where the loudest, most outrageous voice is the voice that is heard. I blame this on the media and its insatiable appetite for headlines and the hidden agenda of advertising dollars and profits. Please bear with me as I try to provide an illustration.
    [SIZE="2"]Yes, Danni, I agree – the loudest voices garner the most attention, whether it is deserved or not. I believe this accepted form of behavior, reinforced at every turn, winds up influencing the online behavior of individuals, even though I cannot see what someone would seek to gain by it. Also, don’t forget that we live in an age where EVERYONE is invited (and encouraged) to offer their opinions on anything, so they take advantage of this in an effort to gain some form of notoriety. I remember a less “democratic” time when you could only speak through representatives, and silence was a virtue. Conscious of this new and better way, I seek to slip in a comment now and then, always aware of the fact that others have their own opinions – I’m surprised I write THIS much, quite frankly, but I like the environment. Writing about civility, and gaining some support for this much-ignored notion, makes this a worthy enterprise…[/SIZE]

    Quote Originally Posted by Speck
    I have wondered for a very long time why I find this section of the forum so difficult. I don't really have an answer but I try to stay away from this section as much as possible. It's kind of sad actually because there are so many people, like you who say profound things and those people help me to understand more, not just about CDing. So every once in a while, I put my toe back in and hope for the best, like now.
    [SIZE="2"]It comes in waves, or tsunamis, my dear, and lately civility has either come under attack or has been absent from the proceedings. You may be interested to know that whenever I post a lengthy piece like this, based as it is on recent, similar threads that have generated heated discussion, I'll check in later to see how it’s doing, or what type of responses it has received, if any. I’ll be honest – I often look at the screen with one eye closed, fearing the worst, but I’m usually heartened by the positive nature of the replies, or the good-natured humor that some members inject into a serious topic. When I read posts that others have written, I search for civility and respond accordingly, but I also avoid lack of civility, even though I am often tempted to respond to something I have no business responding to. There are options, including avoiding this section entirely, but I see it as a challenge to try to put an idea across and brace for the consequences, even if I wind up being assailed for my positive outlook. Whether or not I am successful in my endeavors is not the issue here – I’m looking for kindred spirits among the membership, and this is the clumsy way I go about it. I’m glad to meet you, Speck, so please put your “toe” back in this chilly pool often – I’m doing my best to warm things up around here, but I need help...
    [/SIZE]
    Last edited by Frédérique; 06-18-2011 at 04:47 PM. Reason: I missed an "I"

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