Is the term GLBT a disservice to us?

[Schatten Lupus]

I don't see what the big deal about being associated with homosexuals is anyways. So what if someone calls you gay? Even if you're 100% hetero, being called gay, or someone thinking you are gay, really isn't that big of a deal. It may not be accurate, but it really isn't that big of a deal. When people think we are pedophiles, that is a very big deal and worth every last effort to correct. But to be called gay? I've known several heterosexual, non TG/CD men who many people (myself included) have thought were gay, and all they do is so no and shrug it off.

I guess this is what really disappoints me in the organization is that the hetero TG people are just not represented.

Well, the hetero TG crowd does stay in the closet more often than homo TGs. It may because homosexuals have more experience with coming out and dealing with fallout from coming out. But in the end, that particular group doesn't tend to be very vocal, or out in force themselves.

[TGMarla]

I never said anything even remotely akin to hatred towards the LGB community. When I said that I have nothing in common with them, I'm hit with this:

I don't understand. Does this mean that you don't consider yourself human? Or that you don't consider Human Rights to be important? Or does it mean something else?

Nit picker. My point, as you well know, is that trans folks, meaning crossdressers, are overwhelminly hetero people. As such, they usually do not like being thought of as gay any more than gay people like being thought of as hetero. And the "LGB" part of the equation is all gay to one extent or another. I'm not gay-bashing here, either. It's just a fact. Nor am I denouncing the support of that community. But the T part of the equation is very often shunned by the rest of this entire community. Crossdressers are very often looked down upon by the gay community as some kind of horrid aberration. And to those in the rest of society, being lumped in with the gay communtiy leads to the misconception that crossdressers are all gay. After all, why else would a man want to wear a dress? Obviously it's so they can appeal to men. Pure logic, right? NOT!

Perhaps I'm splitting hairs. The OP wondered if being lumped into this community was a disservice to trans folks. From the overwhelming sentiment in most of the responses, I'd say it is not a disservice, since it brings greater awareness to this community. But it does lead to common misconceptions. That's the only point I was making. So let's not slow-roast me merely for trying to clarify a point.

[Sally24]

Gays, lesbians, and bisexuals are all terms that deal with sexual preference whereas transgender has nothing to do with sexual preference.

That's not entirely the case. We have many here that are GLB as well as the fact that for those that transition, that may in the eyes of the public change them from heterosexual to homosexual if they are attracted to members of their new sex.

We are all members of a minority that involves how our brains are wired.

You can't tell by looking at us that we are a member of GLBT.

You might as well separate the gay men from the lesbian woman as they have little in common. That just wouldn't make sense. I think our inclusion in the GLBT is a very good thing overall.

[Loni]

well seeing as how i live in Ca here on the left coast. and love guns, but i am treated as a nut job and have to fear some cops.

just change a couple words and it ='s transgendered aka cross dressers.

sadly there will always be those who fear any kind of change of even just different then them selves. no amount of education will change there minds,
only can we hope to prevail is by working with the youth and let there minds know our way is ok.

but even that is a slippery slop.

as for being labeled as a gay person, i would be ok with it..as long as it is as a lesbian ;-)...i know bad joke.

but history has shown even keeping strange bed fellows (not good thoughts here) is the only true way to be free and make some head way, as cross dressers some times feed upon our selves, as most never leave the dark safety of the closet. we will always be in the minority and need to have the help of a much larger and openly in your face kinda group.

but as posted earlier it would be a loss for all it too many letters got into the title. one can help by adding a group, but too many groups of to many "styles" can water down any hope of not killing all with infighting.

maybe in 100 or more years, to be a guy trying to look like a pretty woman (and not trying to find sex as) will not be something main stream America (or your country) fears.

anything good or lasting takes a life time, sometimes many life times to build.

Loni

[RachelOKC]

But the T part of the equation is very often shunned by the rest of this entire community. Crossdressers are very often looked down upon by the gay community as some kind of horrid aberration.

I'm sure this happens, but it's not been my experience in almost twenty years of freely and happily associating with the gay community as a reasonably out TG. I'm hard pressed to think of one single moment during all that time where I personally witnessed this. I just can't think of any bad examples (does casual disinterest count as bad?) but I can think of countless examples of where gay people were very friendly and accepting toward me.

I can however think of countless examples of TGs bashing the gay community...and other TGs.

I wonder if this perceived shunning is an example of one reaping what one sows.

And to those in the rest of society, being lumped in with the gay communtiy leads to the misconception that crossdressers are all gay. After all, why else would a man want to wear a dress? Obviously it's so they can appeal to men. Pure logic, right? NOT!

Once again, SFW about misconceptions? The educated are likely to know the difference and the ignorant often aren't willing to learn. Do we go through life with a chip on our shoulder about every misconception that people have about us? Do we have to set everyone straight, no pun intended? Strikes me as a sad life for people who do.

If we're not going to be screwing, what does it matter if I'm gay or not? It shouldn't and it doesn't.

[TGMarla]

I wonder if this perceived shunning is an example of one reaping what one sows.

So now I'm sowing some kind of bad mojo? Sheesh! Seems to me this thread is turning into some kind of pecking party. I've been on this forum for years, and I've read countless examples of what it is I'm saying. I'm very glad your experience has been different. As for me, I've seen examples of both. But if you're going to sit there and suggest that I'm gay-bashing, then you've manufactured something in you own head.

[RachelOKC]

So now I'm sowing some kind of bad mojo? Sheesh! Seems to me this thread is turning into some kind of pecking party. I've been on this forum for years, and I've read countless examples of what it is I'm saying. I'm very glad your experience has been different. As for me, I've seen examples of both. But if you're going to sit there and suggest that I'm gay-bashing, then you've manufactured something in you own head.

You'll note that I said "one" as opposed to "you." That you chose to take it personally was up to you.

This does demonstrate the point about having a chip on one's shoulder, I think.

[Rianna Humble]

OK, perhaps I should have turned it around instead of asking Marla to explain what she meant. Here goes:

Marla, you are a member of the human race, so are people in the LGB communities - that's something in common

Marla, you live in a country that declared from the outset "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Gays and Lesbians believe in being equal and enjoying those unalienable rights - that's something in common

You were born with two arms, two legs, one head - so were people in the GLB communities - that's something in common

The LGBT communities fight for your human rights - that's something in common

Transgendered folks (including cross-dressers) were amongst the first to strike a blow for Lesbian and Gay rights at Stonewall - that is something in common.

But by all means believe that you have nothing in common with folks in the LGB communities and then wonder why they do not appreciate that attitude.

[Schatten Lupus]

I'm sure this happens, but it's not been my experience in almost twenty years of freely and happily associating with the gay community as a reasonably out TG. I'm hard pressed to think of one single moment during all that time where I personally witnessed this. I just can't think of any bad examples (does casual disinterest count as bad?) but I can think of countless examples of where gay people were very friendly and accepting toward me.

My experience is about the same. Actually as of now I've been more comfortable being out to my gay friends than straight, and they have typically been more understanding and supportive. One of my gay friends is even constantly asking me when I'm ready to go out so she can help me pick something to wear, do my make-up, and help me look my best. Another one thinks it's cool to have another girl to talk to.

I can however think of countless examples of TGs bashing the gay community...and other TGs.

All too true. I quit one MtF transsexual forum because it was essentially a forum for bashing cross dressers, and ridiculing others on why "they really aren't trans." There is some of that here, but that other site had more threads for apologies for bad behavior than actual discussion threads.

Once again, SFW about misconceptions?

I think it's based in the conception that many people have that they can control what people think of them. And why shouldn't they? We are constantly bombarded with messages that we must do this, this, and this so people will see us the way we want them to. People put so much time and effort into trying to portray a certain image through clothing and body language, and yet there will always be people who see something else.
Most people probably assume cross dressers are gay because very typically women are attracted to men (and vice versa), and so someone wanting to appear as a woman will, based upon past experience seeing women and men being the norm, be attracted to men. Someone thinking you are gay is not that big of a deal. Being called a lazy bum for being a Liberal is far more degrading, and even that is very insignificant.
So instead of getting worded up about something nobody really cares about, why not focus on putting and end to the labels that should be fought, like child molester, mentally ill, and sick perverted ****s? Such labels are actually damaging, and can be a very big deal.

[Starling]

I was taken for gay at a place I worked for several years; and I only found out much later, because nobody at work treated me any differently, or even mentioned it until I innocently said something that contradicted that perception. That nonchalance would not have happened before Gay Liberation.

And if I had been labeled as gay when I was a (royally balled-up) teenager, I would have been devastated, because the only thing I knew about gender and/or sexuality back then was that a) boys would beat me up and b) girls wouldn't want to have sex with me (in my dreams).

All the hard work, organizing and sacrifices--and the fun!--of the gay community have changed the world. We automatically benefit when prejudices are challenged. And now, when I don't even consider myself a man, people are free to see me however they want. I'm much happier, and I hope they are, too.

Lallie

[TGMarla]

Again, Rianna, you're nit picking what I said. And what's more, you know it. Sure I have arms and legs, but so do child molesters. Should we accept the support of bank robbers and members of the Klan simply because we all have arms and legs? My point, as you well know, is that the other three groups are lumped to gether due to sexual preference. Trans folks are such because of gender expression, and the two are quite different. Furthermore, I never said I didn't appreciate anyone's support, in fact, quite the opposite. Yet you wish to paint me with such a brush.

And Rachel, you know darn well what you were insinuating, so don't hide behind a thin veil of syntax. You both took my comments out of context to further your own viewpoints, and decided to use me as a pinata to do so. I have no chip on my shoulder towards anyone, and I don't appreciate your suggesting that I do. I merely furthered the suggestion that the OP put forth, that "T" and "LGB" are quite different. It's a valid point. However, to make the jump that since I find that point valid, that I run around gay bashing, or that I don't appreciate any support that is given from that sector of society is gratuitous and wrong. That's all I suggested, and you know it.

[RachelOKC]

Whatever you say Marla, you seem know what I think and mean better than I do.

[NicoleScott]

"Transgender is separate from Gay, Lesbian and Bi because those are sexual orientations and Transgender is not about sexual attraction. "

Recognize those words? Rianna said that in "When do CD's become TV's?" March 9, 2011

It's good to see that Rianna and Marla agree about that. The rest is just nit picking over Marla's use of "nothing in common..."

[Starling]

Really, this whole thread is just nit-picking, except for statements like "being lumped in with gays hurts us." That's downright depressing, no matter why the poster believes it.

Lallie

[Babeba]

Somebody on page 2 mentioned it, but I'll say it again to emphasize it!

When the Stonewall riots happened, it was in response to the arrest of crossdressing/T people who couldn't just blend into the community after police came to bust up a bar which was friendly to the sorts of people other places would kick out. The only people who got into trouble with the police/arrested were the ones who were wearing opposite sex clothing, and the entire GLBTQ community came up in arms to help and support them. Stonewall was one of the strongest moments in rallying the GLBTQ community in the first place, so distancing the trans community from the rest of everyone else would be really insulting to everyone involved.

The last Pride festival I went to was absolutely enormous - there were people from quite literally every single walk of life there. Prominent local businesses ran floats in the parade. School groups came out in support to march. All of us watching joined the parade down to the fairgrounds. Gay pride isn't really about sexual orientation, it's about saying it's okay for people to be themselves and be in a positive atmosphere that accepts them, and showing the whole world that loving everyone for who they are and the people THEY love is really just one great big happy thing to do; and that the REAL crime against humanity isn't expressing who and what you are but hurting people for things about themselves they can't really change!

Also, there are SOOO many people on here who are unhappy about being referred to as 'transgendered,' as they are still very much male and very much enjoy it. If they're not about the gender, and the clothes just feel sensuously good to them - isn't that more of a sex thing than a gender thing? Just so we're clear that the bread is being buttered on both sides, here! How many fetish crossdressing websites are there out there? How is that NOT a sexuality thing?

[Badtranny]

Well this is fascinating.

So the battle lines have been drawn separating two camps. On one side we have the LGBT crowd and on the other we have the T (we don't need no stinking LGB) camp. Apparently the dividing issue is loosely based on sexuality, and both sides seem to agree that the "T" part of LGBT is an issue of expression rather than sexual preference.

We have passionate people on both sides but my humble observation (ahem) is every time a wedge issue is being used to divide a community, the success of the division depends entirely on a misunderstanding of the the dang wedge issue. So as is almost always the case, we need to better define what the wedge is, and maybe take another look at what we think we agree on.

I submit that the "T" is in fact rooted in sexuality.

Let me explain. Every CD on this board would agree that the early days of cross dressing were literally sparkling with sexual energy right? There are many CDs on this very board that will openly admit to having sex while cross dressed or at least wanting to. There are just as many who admit that cross dressing does tend to rev the motor a bit. There are some CDs for whom their gender expression has become part of their lifestyle, but I'm convinced that for a large number of CDs, it's almost purely just a catalyst for a "good time" and then the clothes as well as the cross dresser are right back in the closet until nature calls again. If you will concede that the very act of gender expression can be fraught with sex and sexuality, I will concede that on the face of it, that alone doesn't prove my point.

Allow me to continue. Let's examine the "straight" male cross dresser. I presume that these are the people that make up the majority of the "T" (we don't need no stinking LGB) camp. This particular segment makes no secret or apologies for their attraction to the fairer sex. Some have said that they are so attracted to women that they want to "become" them. "And what is so wrong about that?" well let's consider that for a bit. If a straight man was to magically become a woman yet retain his former sexuality, then he would by definition be a lesbian. (a rather active one we could guess) Indeed many of these straight CDs have proudly proclaimed that they were lesbians in men's bodies. (loathsome as that may be)
So if we were to take away the advances of the GLB (it's a Wonderful Life style) then the straight married CD who took great pains to look as pretty and feminine as possible would of course be unable to show his wife any affection in public without offending quite a few people. Heaven forbid those people find out that the "dyke" is actually a man because any community that won't accept lesbians is likely to be openly hostile to a "freak" in pantyhose.

One more thing. If the "T" is supposed to represent the entire TG spectrum, how do you reconcile someone like me? (it always comes back to me doesn't it) If I weren't a TS, than I would definitely be gay. I like men. Big strong masculine men, but I digress. When my transition is complete I will resemble a woman who is in a relationship with a man. (fingers crossed) To the great unwashed I will appear to be straight, even if I still have my tiny pickle.

The straight male CD who is openly fraternizing with his female partner will appear to be homosexual and the admitted homosexual (me) will appear to be straight. Ironic isn't it?

So tell me again how the "T" is not in fact woven into the fabric of the LGBT?

[Rianna Humble]

Again, Rianna, you're nit picking what I said.

I still don't understand why you want nothing to do with the people who publicly defended your right to cross-dress without being arrested.

"Transgender is separate from Gay, Lesbian and Bi because those are sexual orientations and Transgender is not about sexual attraction. "

Recognize those words? Rianna said that in "When do CD's become TV's?" March 9, 2011

Fortunately, Nicole, acknowledging that we are separate but work in common does not support someone's assertion that we have nothing in common. The GLBT communities have done a lot to further people's human rights including those of cross-dressers even though the majority of the activists are not themselves transgendered.

WHY do so many people on these forums want to spend so much time distancing themselves from others rather than acknowledging or even celebrating what unites us?

[Starling]

...Ironic isn't it?...

Rather brilliant, I think.

Lallie

[joanna4]

I don't want to be put into that category not that I have anything against it. I always thought that transgender shouldnt be in that group either.

[Claire Cook]

That's not entirely the case. We have many here that are GLB as well as the fact that for those that transition, that may in the eyes of the public change them from heterosexual to homosexual if they are attracted to members of their new sex.

We are all members of a minority that involves how our brains are wired.

You can't tell by looking at us that we are a member of GLBT.

You might as well separate the gay men from the lesbian woman as they have little in common. That just wouldn't make sense. I think our inclusion in the GLBT is a very good thing overall.

I agree with Sally, and think that to some extent we are missing the point of the LBGT movement in this discussion. It is less about sexual preference than acceptance and rights in society. And if this relates to being able to dress as we want where we want, using the ladies' room and not being hassled by TSA for CD'ing, all the better for us.

[NicoleScott]

The question the OP asked (paraphrased) is: does association with the LGB movement work for against T folks. Some say for, some say against. I don't think that Marla's use of "nothing" was intended to be taken so dadgum literally, and she got beat up over it. Would a confession from Marla that it was a poor choice of words satisfy, or do you really just not like her answer?
But tell me this: a hetero man who likes to make up and dress in private, doesn't go out, isn't looking for a hook-up, but just likes to enjoy a little femme time at home in private, what does that CD have in common with the LGB movement? What does gay rights have to do with a person's gender expression in private? Maybe some T's have nothing in common with LGB's. Except being human, two arms, two legs, etc. if you want to nit pick.

[TGMarla]

I still don't understand why you want nothing to do with the people who publicly defended your right to cross-dress without being arrested.

I never said that. Those are words and thoughts that you inferred, and attributed to me. You took what I said completely out of context, and instead of reading and understanding what I actually said, you instead completely twisted around what I said and made some kind of big deal out of it.

My original comment was that while I agree that there is power in numbers (acknowledging the support of the rest of the entire group), I have little in common with LGB people (acknowledging the OP's point that started this whole thread). From this, you somehow determined that I want nothing to do with LGB people. Now, BadTranny has an interesting argument, but it is still in essence splitting hairs when it comes to the complicated self-sexuality of the MTF heterosexual crossdresser. And I seriously doubt that the LGB community, all of whom openly admit to enjoying sex with their same gender, would take this viewpoint and suddenly see some kind of strong kinship with T people, namely the hetero crossdressers.

Sure, there are some gay crossdressers. Take BadTranny for instance. Certainly gay crossdressers have a commonality with the LGB community, since they are in fact gay. But the only thing that the hetero CD crowd has in common with them is that they both crossdress. There are some who fantasize at being "taken" by a man while dressed, but it often goes no further than some odd fantasy. This is why I said that I have little in common with the LGB community. But I never said anything even close to "I don't want to be associated with" or "I shun the support of" this segment of society.

Thank you, Nicole. I appreciate your comments a great deal. You help to articulate what it is I'm saying.

[Inna]

LGBT, GLBT, LGBTQ, vanilla, chocolate, which one do you take? Democrats, Republicans, Teaparty, within each group there are gays, lesbians, hetero, homo, sapiens and nondescribable breads, so which one did you a favor? Which one pulled you in and gave you home when you were dressed in "Not your clothing theme" Which one said, "IT IS OK" at which party did you feel free and not judged?

When you dress and assume the feminine role (weather in your heart or just a fancy fantasy) are you gay, because if you still like girls then you are! If you dress and like boys then are you straight?

As you see it is all mambo jumbo, twisted shreds of misconceptions. If a group of people, invite my sorry ass and respect me, give me shelter, cares, for who I am, then I am proud of calling them my family and I shall do the same for them.

[Kaz]

Well said Alexia,

I find this sort of thread really depressing, but then I guess it is as a result of the medium mainly. Stick us all in a room together and we will have it all sorted in no time!

I am not gay, lesbian or bi, though I have at times been bi-curious and I am sure if it worked for me then I might be... therefore, I could say quite legitimately that 'my' CDing is nothing to do with the GLB community. A major problem some of us have is the perception that because we like to crossdress we must be gay... and we have to spend a lot of effort explaining that is is not the case (if indeed that is the case). Of course some of us are gay. Nothing wrong with that, a lot of my friends are gay and I am OK with everyone, whatever their 'persuasion'. I just don't want people to assume I am if I am not.

And so there we go... if we are part of the GLB community this will always rub some people up the wrong way for valid reasons. Is this gay bashing? I don't think so!

But do we have a lot in common? Of course we do because we are a minority community that is mostly misunderstood and frequently suffering from prejudice in the broader society. And that is why the link!

One day, we will stop beating people up because they do not fit into a certain 'neat and tidy' category that fits my 'persuasion' and accept that we all have equal validity (accepting that some people have a problem with everyone being 'equal') and should command equal respect.

And that goes for this thread too, as we have nicely categorised people into 'camps' again. This is the sad old story of the human race... we are tribal, and will always revert to this sort of behaviour, unless we actively stop behaving this way.

Me.. I think guitarists should be put on the endangered species list. Now there's a category to go after! Or why don't we beat drummers up next.. should they be regarded as being musicians?

Jeez... life is too short!

[Sweet Sabrina]

Here is two more cents thrown in the well for discussion. When one uses a label on anything it identifies it as different. If one truly wants to be rid of bigotry and throw in racism as well then get rid of labels. I am a bisexual crossdressing male but I don't go around saying I am a BCM. I have the same problem with the race issue. Get rid of African American or Mexican American or Irish American etc etc. If you are a citizen you are simply American You don't walk around saying "I'm a gay or lesbian American" do you? The first step to me is to get rid of the labels and go by the actions of people and their character instead of using the lump opinion one has of a collective group. If we choose to keep the labels then I think we are destined to keep the ignorance and hate alive