Homophobia, a problem?

[Frédérique]

I wouldn't immediately define this as misogyny. Men can not want to be feminine, while not hating females for being who they are. Most men that I know do not think themselves superior to women and do not hate them. They do acknowledge differences between the two genders though.

[SIZE="2"]By doing so they keep the genders apart, which makes crossing over to the other side that much more difficult. For a male, sometimes, disaffection for women may be quite subtle and not voiced aloud, fueling a desire to conquer feminine characteristics and “become” what he cannot obtain through normal channels. I find it impossible to feel “superior” to any other human being, even though this misguided idea is put forth and reinforced from an early age. Crossing over between the genders helps to dissipate any hatred before it has a chance to take hold, simply by embracing a different way of seeing things. Homophobia cannot take root in such an environment...
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Also, I don't think that most people need to see a Pride parade with drag queens in order to assume that CDers are gay. Just the fact that a man wants to present as a woman is enough for people to believe there is a sexual motive and that he does this in order to appeal to males. As mentioned above, there is a dire need for widespread education about this.

[SIZE="2"]This morning I was wondering why you never hear about the heterosexual, non-alternative “community,” but then I quickly realized that you ALWAYS hear from that community, 24/7/365, loud and clear, since they have an agenda to push across, meaning an agenda that benefits THEM. As far as education is concerned, who is responsible for dwindling resources in this department? Yeah, guess who, and they are, no doubt, extremely PROUD of themselves...
[/SIZE]

[NicoleScott]

Definition of HOMOPHOBIA (Merriam-Webster)
: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals

Yes, there are haters, but not all homophobes are haters. They just fear. Maybe they fear getting hit on when alone with a gay man. But, as defined, it's an irrational fear. Some people are against homosexuality for religious reasons. They say they love the sinner but hate the sin. So let's not label all homophobes as haters. People are entitled to their own thoughts, however irrational, but they should be held accountable for their actions.

I agree with Karren that a lot of guys are embarrassed that they were attracted to what they thought was a woman but was a crossdresser. They got fooled. And likewise, some women are not happy that their man was attracted to a cd. A little jealousy?

[MasterD]

What's surpising to me is how homophobic (Going to take lumps for lumping all you folk into one lump here ) most of you gals are when I come up to one of you and attempt a conversation. Not all men are trying to bed you in the first thirty seconds.

Although that would be nice...

But seriously now DebGlam made a good point when she said:

I think the idea that another man may be looking at them in that manner scares the hell out of some of them.

There's nothing more awkward then having some beautifully dressed CD/TV/TS come all unglued blurting out "I'm not gay !" as soon as I introduce myself.

I've been around long enough to know there's the danger of "fooliing" someone who may not react favorably so I can understand the apprehension.

[RachelOKC]

Definition of HOMOPHOBIA (Merriam-Webster)
: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals

Yes, there are haters, but not all homophobes are haters. They just fear. Maybe they fear getting hit on when alone with a gay man. But, as defined, it's an irrational fear.

I can buy this to a degree. Fear and ignorance doesn't have to equal hate, but they are strong contributors.

I've never known a gay man who would hit on another man that he didn't believe to be gay or bi. Not that it doesn't happen, but most gay men are careful to try to read the situation and not cause conflict.

Just like a woman can turn down a man's advances, a man can do the same to another man. It doesn't have to be rude, hateful, or violent. Thanks, but no thanks. How hard is that, even for a fearful, ignorant person?

They say they love the sinner but hate the sin.

Waste of time to even engage on that one.

I agree with Karren that a lot of guys are embarrassed that they were attracted to what they thought was a woman but was a crossdresser. They got fooled. And likewise, some women are not happy that their man was attracted to a cd. A little jealousy?

How often does this *really* happen? Lets see...in movie world, probably all the time. In real life? Pretty rare in I'd bet.

[kendra_gurl]

Something everyone is missing here. Perhaps it is because this site is not that representative of the CD's who are on all the other sites on the internet. That is the main reason I stay at this site.
It's really sad to say that least 90% of the CD's I encounter on OTHER web sites are either gay or Bisexual. I for one can certainly understand how the general internet public would think we all are.
Most that can pass in public are never know about because they pass. Leaving a lot of the publics impression of CD's they are aware of to be the ones they see at drag shows which usually are held in Gay clubs. We all know from research most cd's are str8 married hetro men but the public in general do not research such things

As for getting hit on while out. Its very easy to just politely tell them "I'm very flattered but I am not into men" I've never had anyone not understand that or be offended by it

[dawnmarrie1961]

Here's another tidbit I have about myself. I attend the MCC, Metropolitan Community Church, on a regular basis. The congregation is mostly gay and lesbian. Usually when we meet and greet each other we give each other a nice friendly hug. I don't have any problem with hugging the ladies but when it came to hugging the men I used to feel a little weird about it. I preferred to give them a nice manly handshake. Of course now that I've gotten to know some of the members better I just grab the guys and squeeze the heck out of them, careful not to break any ribs.
Familiarity doesn't breed necessarily breed contempt but rather it offers a chance to broaden our understanding. My initial reaction towards these gentlemen was wrong because I was basing my feelings about them from my learned experiences with men from my past. Not the present.
I'm learning.

[NicoleScott]

Waste of time to even engage on that one.

Then why did you quote it? Unless you're one of those who think you have to pick apart every sentence of another's post. That's irritating. Well, at least you agree with my point that not all homophobes are haters.

[Julogden]

*sigh* Fetish -–noun
1. an object regarded with awe as being the embodiment or habitation of a potent spirit or as having magical potency.
2. any object, idea, etc., eliciting unquestioning reverence, respect, or devotion: to make a fetish of high grades.
3. Psychology . any object or nongenital part of the body that causes a habitual erotic response or fixation.

You're acting just like the rest of them.....you think that a fetish is a bad thing. It's today's society and the media that has attached such a bad image with the word. Did you put women's clothing on only once and then stop? I thought not. Do you love how it makes you feel just the way I do? Do you treasure your time when you can let that inner girl go free? By technical definition then yes, you do have a fetish for crossdressing. Fetishes come in varying degrees....it's not just a 1 or a 0....there's a whole range of people who yes, might have the same passion (same meaning as a fetish btw in this context) for crossdressing as you do but who might do it more or less or consume more of who they are (i.e. I'm just as femme in drab as I am enfemme...it's who I am and it bleeds over). You have to separate yourself from the herd mentality as like Frederique said.

I feel that you're making an error in thinking that the "vast majority" of CD's crossdress because of a habitual erotic response or fixation, that's absolutely not accurate. If that's your reason for dressing, fine, not a problem, but don't make the mistake of thinking that everyone dresses for the same reasons that you do. While many CD's, maybe most, go through a stage early on that is sexual to one degree or another, most move past that, and their reasons for dressing evolve in non-sexual directions. And some do dress strictly because it's a sexual turn-on, but I don't see that it's most CD's. I've been around the community for many years (decades) and have known a lot of CD's, and I'm speaking based on that experience.

What's surpising to me is how homophobic (Going to take lumps for lumping all you folk into one lump here ) most of you gals are when I come up to one of you and attempt a conversation. Not all men are trying to bed you in the first thirty seconds.

Although that would be nice...

But seriously now DebGlam made a good point when she said:


There's nothing more awkward then having some beautifully dressed CD/TV/TS come all unglued blurting out "I'm not gay !" as soon as I introduce myself.

I've been around long enough to know there's the danger of "fooliing" someone who may not react favorably so I can understand the apprehension.

My experience has been that most guys hanging around CD's are indeed looking for quick and anonymous sex, so its not surprising that a lot of girls immediately want to make it clear that they aren't interested. In my younger days when I went out a lot, I learned that an over-the-top response on my part wasn't usually needed, but I always made it clear to any guy who made advances that if he was looking for anything other than someone to talk to for a while, he was wasting his time. Initially, I overreacted too, but I learned quickly that most guys will accept you calmly and rationally saying that you aren't interested. And I did end up sitting and talking with chasers lots of times. I had some nice conversations and got quite a few free drinks too.

Carol

[Pythos]

Its very easy to just politely tell them "I'm very flattered but I am not into men" I've never had anyone not understand that or be offended by it

Heh. I use this one. But my other fave is

"well, you see, I am a total lesbian." LOL. Note I have only done this when in fem androg mode. So far in full fem, no such questions....yet (gulp)

[TinaMc]

Interesting topic. Something I read recently suggests that being feminine is considered sort of lower on the scale of acceptability even among gay men (http://goodmenproject.com/featured-c...e-sexuality/):

Michael: The one thing that absolutely bugs me in the gay world is the question of, “Are you a top or a bottom?” It’s really, “How masculine are you?” If you want to see how masculinity and femininity are played out in the straight world, you only have to see how it is played out in the gay world. Top and bottom is really nothing but masculine and feminine. In ancient Greece and in Rome, homosexuality was accepted—but only if you were the top. The proscription against homosexuality was not about men having sex with men. It was about men not acting like women.

Which kind of puts a different spin on things, i.e. a lot of CDers are all, "I'm not gay!" And a lot of gay men are all, "I'm not feminine!"

[joanna4]

Oh my god, yes I do have sexual fantasies and some of which are with another man/men. I feel fine about it actually but just fear std's.

[Pythos]

Yes TinaMc,

At least in this example gay males consider being feminine to be lower than masculine.

So let's not hear anymore about people being insulted when we straight CDers say "I'm not gay" anymore.

Let's just all realize there are bigots, and there are non-bigots. Try to be the latter.

[SweetIonis]

Definition of HOMOPHOBIA (Merriam-Webster)
: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals

Yes, there are haters, but not all homophobes are haters. They just fear. Maybe they fear getting hit on when alone with a gay man. But, as defined, it's an irrational fear. Some people are against homosexuality for religious reasons. They say they love the sinner but hate the sin. So let's not label all homophobes as haters. People are entitled to their own thoughts, however irrational, but they should be held accountable for their actions.

I agree with Karren that a lot of guys are embarrassed that they were attracted to what they thought was a woman but was a crossdresser. They got fooled. And likewise, some women are not happy that their man was attracted to a cd. A little jealousy?

I'm still thinking about it but I think you are right. You can be fearful of something and not hate it. That's a good question though.

If you don't mind, I would like to ask you do you think that a person who is against homosexuality for religious reasons is NECESSARILY a homophobe?

[Pythos]

do you think that a person who is against homosexuality for religious reasons is NECESSARILY a homophobe?

No. I would not say they are a homophobe. I would say the congregation has homophobic tendencies. I would also go out on a limb and say that they would also fall into the ignorant category, and cherry pic passeges in the bible to their own satisfaction. Cause there are in the same sections that condem homosexuality (though it is not worded as such) stuff about killing a dis obeying child by stoning, killing adulterers in the same brutal manner, and many other horrible things. If we truly followed the Bible like how some of these religions follow only ONE obscure rule, there would be many many dead people.

[SweetIonis]

No. I would not say they are a homophobe. I would say the congregation has homophobic tendencies. I would also go out on a limb and say that they would also fall into the ignorant category, and cherry pic passeges in the bible to their own satisfaction. Cause there are in the same sections that condem homosexuality (though it is not worded as such) stuff about killing a dis obeying child by stoning, killing adulterers in the same brutal manner, and many other horrible things. If we truly followed the Bible like how some of these religions follow only ONE obscure rule, there would be many many dead people.

You have interesting thoughts.

I absolutely agree about the many dead people point. I would go further and say that there would be hardly anyone left!

[Karren H]

Karren, you have one lucky son to have a parent like you. You not only accept his born condition, but understand it. What a wonderful thing he has to have been born with a parent who will support him and love him unconditionally, well, unless he borrows a dress without asking and ruines it. I know, gay doesn't mean crossdresser. Just thinking out loud how many children who are born either gay, crossdressers, or transgendered who had no say in how they were made but were born with 1 or both parents who don't understand and try to change who they are. Kudo's to you for being there for you son.

Thanks... He is the most manly rugged man and has no feminine characteristics at all... Probaly got that from his mother! Lol.

[JavaJunkie]

@Carol Hun I'm way past the point where going out enfemme turns me on like that but I was referring more my femininity. As far as the sexual goes, yes I do like men, and yes I do like when they hit on me, and yes I do like having sex while still en femme. It's not the act of wearing the clothes that turns me on but the mindset I'm in when I'm dressed. I love feeling girly and submissive. Does that mean I need the clothes to still get satisfaction? Not at all.

Yes, I did make some broad sweeping statements but you said it yourself, alot (but not all) CD'ers start out being turned on by it. I think once we become more comfortable with it and ourselves we lose that fascination (in a sexual context) and really just settle into our new self. Me though? I'm not a guy that likes to wear women's clothes.....I'm a woman stuck in a gay man's body trying to express what I feel. I think therein lies the big difference in me and alot of the girls on this site...... I'm not attracted at all to women...I just want to be more like them. I have absolutely no interest in trying to be a guy. Also a silly stocking or lace panties do nothing for me.....being a girl with a man in a more private setting does.

Finally I don't think people dress for the same reasons as me at all. We're all beautifully unique and have our own motivations and reasoning for doing what we do. Kind of like the reason I would guess the anti gay crowd here are so adamant about proclaiming they aren't gay and don't want to be perceived as anything to do with gay is because they themselves have doubts about their orientation. It's perfectly fine though because we all go through that stage. Just please don't antagonize those of us who ARE out and proud that we've finally accepted ourselves. Homophobia is internal as well as external. Same goes for transphobia as well.

[NicoleScott]

If you don't mind, I would like to ask you do you think that a person who is against homosexuality for religious reasons is NECESSARILY a homophobe?

Maybe according to the definition (aversion to...), but if a person believes, using tenets of his religion as his source of authority, that homosexuality is against God's will for His (all) people, then he is not necessarily a homophobe. BUT, using these teachings as an excuse to hate ("God hates fags") would indicate homophobia and maybe worse if acted out: discrimination, assault, etc. The theme of Christianity is that God is love - He loves all people, but not their sins. Some Christians truly believe that homosexuality is a sin, but they are also commanded to love anyway. I don't see much difference between radical Muslims killing infidels (for being non-Muslim) that so-called Christians killing people for what they believe to be sins.
My [late] father was a devout Christian, Southern Baptist, but he didn't wear it on his sleeve to impress others. His works were in the background, only in God's eyes, not for accolades of people. He visited people in jail, but that doesn't mean he condoned crime. He donated money for specific church needs - anomonously. I was punished for playing with lipstick as a child, but I don't think he knew about my crossdressing. He certainly would have not approved but would have loved me anyway, and would have tried to get me to see the "error" of my ways according to his religious beliefs. And he certainly would never have considered harming (physically, socially, etc.) anyone for being gay. I wouldn't call him a homophobe, but if others define him that way, OK, but he certainly was not a hater.

[SweetIonis]

Maybe according to the definition (aversion to...), but if a person believes, using tenets of his religion as his source of authority, that homosexuality is against God's will for His (all) people, then he is not necessarily a homophobe. BUT, using these teachings as an excuse to hate ("God hates fags") would indicate homophobia and maybe worse if acted out: discrimination, assault, etc. The theme of Christianity is that God is love - He loves all people, but not their sins. Some Christians truly believe that homosexuality is a sin, but they are also commanded to love anyway. I don't see much difference between radical Muslims killing infidels (for being non-Muslim) that so-called Christians killing people for what they believe to be sins.
My [late] father was a devout Christian, Southern Baptist, but he didn't wear it on his sleeve to impress others. His works were in the background, only in God's eyes, not for accolades of people. He visited people in jail, but that doesn't mean he condoned crime. He donated money for specific church needs - anomonously. I was punished for playing with lipstick as a child, but I don't think he knew about my crossdressing. He certainly would have not approved but would have loved me anyway, and would have tried to get me to see the "error" of my ways according to his religious beliefs. And he certainly would never have considered harming (physically, socially, etc.) anyone for being gay. I wouldn't call him a homophobe, but if others define him that way, OK, but he certainly was not a hater.

I agree with everything you said here. I think the thing that people forget in terms of how they practice their religion is that it's supposed to be based on love. That's really the key.

Thanks for the response. There are some really intelligent people on here!

[BobbieJoe]

Before the Holy Roman Empire there wasn't even a word for "gay"

[SweetIonis]

A lot of stuff we have came from the Roman Empire and it's remnants. Actually much of modern Christian theology comes from Constantine's Council of Nicaea.

[bomba]

i for one have never been dressed around other men.but the thought of a guy hitting on me when i was dressed would scare the hell out of me. but wouldn't it be great if my wife cuaght me dressed and hit on me. oh dream on ,dream on

[Julogden]

Just please don't antagonize those of us who ARE out and proud that we've finally accepted ourselves. Homophobia is internal as well as external. Same goes for transphobia as well.

Sorry if you felt that I was trying to antagonize anyone. I actually quoted from the incorrect message of yours. In an earlier posting in this thread, you said "I would have to say for the vast majority yes, CDing is sexual. People just don't want to admit it because they're embarrassed it turns them on. CDing is technically categorized as a fetish but I know we all hate that term.....so dirty."

That's what triggered my response. However, your explanation cleared the air as far as I'm concerned, although I'd argue that CD'ing isn't necessarily a fetish.

Congratulations on being out and totally accepting yourself! That's quite an accomplishment for most of us. I advocate everyone being out, but it's hard to do for many of us, as we are our own worst enemy and a formidable one at that.

It never fails to amaze me when people here start in with the anti-gay stuff.

Carol

[MasterD]

My experience has been that most guys hanging around CD's are indeed looking for quick and anonymous sex, so its not surprising that a lot of girls immediately want to make it clear that they aren't interested.

Aha, Forgot about that part. Valid point. Perhaps in my youth but more for friendship these days, if anything else happens, well so much the better.
( Been lurking here for a while, not here to upset any one intentionally)

Oh my god, yes I do have sexual fantasies and some of which are with another man/men. I feel fine about it actually but just fear std's.

[Fab Karen]

"but if a person believes, using tenets of his religion as his source of authority, that homosexuality is against God's will for "His" (all) people, then he is not necessarily a homophobe."

Irrational fear of homosexuals, it aligns perfectly under the definition.