Pride may not be the best word for GLBT parades and festivals.

[Alice Torn]

[SIZE="3"]Frankly, I don't like the word "pride". I get tired of every cause having its "pride" day. An old proverb says, "Pride goes before destruction. A haughty spirit before a fall." "In your face" pride and arrogance, and haughtiness, by anyone, is a downer, to me. "Acceptance" would be a more civil word. Or, "reality". My brothers used to march in KKK marches! I don't think that caused a lot of good vibes. Freedon, or liberty may be another good word, in place of "Pride".Just one's opinion[/SIZE]

[RachelOKC]

Meh. A word is a word. Pride is just so because we're proud of who we are and we're not ashamed to proclaim it. I'm not sure how that is arrogant or haughty. If anything, it is righteous to stand up for oneself and others in the face of fear, repression, and persecution. If people did not speak up and express pride then we would all be invisible...and a great many of us would be ash.

I don't need an old book to tell me how to live, I think I do a pretty good job without it.

[AllieSF]

Louise, I think those phrases are referring to people who let pride lead to arrogance and the disregard of others. Schools tell us to be proud of our accomplishments and that is how I interpret the use of "Pride" for our celebration of LGBT rights and accomplishments. I think the idea is the same as used in schools, be proud of yourself and do not be ashamed of who you are. Don't let other people's opinions get you down. I hope that helps.

[GMCD]

I agree with Allie. Your quote is Biblical and the definition of Biblical pride is, as Allie says, arrogance. There is also a positive definition of pride that is about having a good feeling about one's status and accomplishments. It is an affirming concept and celebrates being free from the shame and guilt that we have all been subjected to for far too long in this world. We are declaring that we are no longer slaves to little minds caught up in defining who we are for us.

We accept ourselves, give thanks to whatever we want to thank for our liberty and freedom, and we celebrate. It's not the march of conquering warlords like a bunch of moron Neo-Nazis, it's a victory parade like returning heroes in Times Square.

[docrobbysherry]

I think I KNOW what you're saying, Louise! And the phrase, " Pride comes before a fall!", comes to mind.

Maybe these "parades/celebrations" should be called, "We're here whether u accept us or not. We won't bother u, if u don't bother us. If u DO, we and the Attorney General, will sue your pants off!"

[Sophie86]

I agree with GMCD that the intent is to portray a positive, self-affirming type of pride; but if you google images for "pride parade," I'm not sure that's being accomplished.

[Schatten Lupus]

It's the pride they have in that they will not stay home and be quite, but rather they are showing the world they are not ashamed of being who they are.
And pride can bring a fall, but so can humility, waiting for good thing, or anything else. "Pride comes before a fall" is just one of many mindless and meaningless phrases that exist in our society.
Pride is taking a firm, and not letting others telling you that you are wrong putting you down. Pride is the strength to keep on fighting in the face of heavy odds when you know you are right.
And if it makes you feel better, we have the pride to show our faces unlike the Klan who have been hiding their faces since their beginning.

[Alice Torn]

Yes, I should have qualified that. It is very good, and right, to take pride in ones work, appearance, maintaining cleanliness, etc. As with everything in life, there can be a wrong attirude, and use, and ok attitude and use. I came from a very unhappy family, and have had low self worth all my life. But, sometimes i go too far the other way, and get puffed up with vanity, and pride. Don't we all. Having had so many friends drop dead, I try to have a little humility, especially after surviving a storm in a small fishing boat, ten miles off of Miami coast!

[AllieSF]

Louise, I am proud of all that you have done by being here and contributing so much. You have lived through a lot more than I have and always have such a positive attitude here even when the fan is spewing the shit in all those different directions around you. So, I am proud of you and see that you have every right to be proud of yourself for all that you have accomplished and put up with. That is definitely not arrogance on your part. It is survival with a smile, even if you head is up in the treetops and mind is hidden by those low bushes over there by the fence. That is a joke girl for both of us! Hugs.

[sterling12]

Louise, I think The Idea is based upon significant history for The GLBT Movement. The First GLBT March came shortly after Stonewall, and The Only Thing that was previously felt before that was Shame! In those Days you couldn't be OUT of The Closet....there was only "In The Closet."

These Days when people participate in Pride Events, it is An Affirmation of Whom and What we are. Inotherwords, in This Context, people are feeling "Pride" as opposed to Shame, which is The Way they felt previously. I don't see much "In Your Face" at These Events. Typically, they are Joyous Occasions for people to bond together within Our Community.

I'm sorry if you are seeing this in a different way. Trust me, for 99.99999% of The People who participate, it's an Occasion of Solidarity and Fun, nothing more. Do try and attend an Event, I think you might change your mind.

Peace and Love, Joanie

[dilane]

Pride strikes me as slightly prideful, in the Biblical sense, too. The phrase I learned was "Pride goeth before the fall."

It's a reaction to having been put down, made fun of, and worse, so it's understandable.

Be proud of what you've done, not of what you happen to be born into -- being gay, straight, born rich, white, into a prominent family, beautiful, intelligent, etc, is not something that is in my opinion something to be proud of, it's just an accident of birth. But rising above adversity (such as overcoming hostility, etc) is something to be proud of.

-- Diane

[LilSissyStevie]

Louise, you reminded me of a great old song. I think you might like it.

Pride of Man - Gordon Lightfoot

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2bL4DGq7Ds

Quicksilver Messenger Service did a good version also.

[Schatten Lupus]

Be proud of what you've done, not of what you happen to be born into -- being gay, straight, born rich, white, into a prominent family, beautiful, intelligent, etc, is not something that is in my opinion something to be proud of, it's just an accident of birth. But rising above adversity (such as overcoming hostility, etc) is something to be proud of.

That is one of the biggest indications of the difference in a strong and healthy pride, and mindless arrogance. There is no point in being proud of what you had no control of. It just happened. Pride requires action. There is no pride in being homosexual or transgender, however there is pride in stepping out of the closet and not letting society hold you back.

[TGMarla]

I agree, to an extent, with Louise here. "Pride" is not completely appropriate in this context. However, it may be the necessary term to convey the idea that we are not ashamed of who we are. Perhaps "awareness" is what we are after, but that does not convey the lack of shame either. I am not "Proud" of being a crossdresser per se....but neither am I ashamed of it. I've always felt that pride should be reserved for achievements. I did not achieve my status as a crossdresser; I just happen to be one. The term "Gay Pride" is a misnomer, then, because being gay is not something they aspired to or achieved. If they truly were born that way, it's just who they are. Maybe the parades should adopt both words, but then it wouldn't roll off the tongue as easily, either. Ah well, perhaps we leave well enough alone in this case.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

That is one of the biggest indications of the difference in a strong and healthy pride, and mindless arrogance. There is no point in being proud of what you had no control of. It just happened. Pride requires action. There is no pride in being homosexual or transgender, however there is pride in stepping out of the closet and not letting society hold you back.

Yes!

I think it takes a meaningful misunderstanding of context to take issue with the concept of LGBT pride..

[Tina B.]

Louise, I've read your post for a long time, so I think I know where you're coming from, but for so many in the LGBT movement, being told they where perverts, sinners, embarrassment to the family, they tried everything to keep us all in the closet, made it illegal, deemed us insane, and subjected all of us except maybe the BI's to electric shock and all kind of crazy crap. So when the movement raised up and started to fight for their rights, and they went to jail, or got beat up time and time again. when things started to change these people stood and and said, I proud to be who I am, and I'm here, and I'm queer, get used to it. And we all stood a little taller, I'm not a bit arrogant, but I am filled with pride every time I see the Brave sisters and Brothers that march in those gay parades, so I like the name, I think it fits how it all came to be. I know many say you shouldn't get up in peoples face with things like this, but if people didn't we would all still be hiding, and worried about jail, loss of job, or eviction. Join us and stand up with PRIDE!

[Alice Torn]

For those who were beaten, emotionally abused, jailed, rejected by family, I can see why they want to assert their humanity. Reminds me of the Elephant Man movie, where John, was chased down, and jeered at. He shouts "I am a man. Not an animal!!" If i ever came out to what family is left, no doubt I would be persecuted, jeered, attacked." And friends and neighbors would also, but family for sure. The challenge for us all, is to assert our selves in a non-arrogant or over the top way. Society seems to consider
cd and tg and GLBG as the worst sin, while going soft on all the politicians' stealing, lying, and "normal" sins!

[Frédérique]

Frankly, I don't like the word "pride". I get tired of every cause having its "pride" day. An old proverb says, "Pride goes before destruction. A haughty spirit before a fall." "In your face" pride and arrogance, and haughtiness, by anyone, is a downer, to me. "Acceptance" would be a more civil word.

[SIZE="2"]I agree with you 100%, Louise! “Pride” is one of the most misused words in American English, right up there with awesome. Being a person who minds her own business, it would be highly unlikely that I would be in a parade with the word pride attached to it – I wouldn’t do it as an artist, and I certainly wouldn’t do it as a crossdresser. I’m HAPPY to be a crossdresser, but the word “pride” denotes a defensive posture of superiority – how does this make others feel, and aren’t we supposed to be conscious of the feelings of others? It seems to me that expressions of pride do a lot of harm, and they do nothing to bring people together – the distinctions that are insisted upon by the status quo carry over to our “community,” and we seek tolerance via the same route. Yes, pride definitely goeth before a fall, and, if I was in a “pride” parade, I would expect the “fall” to be just around the next corner...


The late George Carlin did a piece about “pride,” based on these “I’m proud to be Irish” buttons you see on St. Patrick’s Day. Since Mr. Carlin was 100% Irish, he pointed out that he was happy to be Irish, but not proud, since he had nothing to do with the fact that he was Irish – how can you be proud of something you had nothing to do with? It’s the luck of the draw, and everyone in the world is in the same boat. By the same token, since many (or most) of us cannot understand our underlying desire to crossdress, how can one be proud of something they cannot fathom, for one reason or another? I’m happy to be doing it, but I don’t think this personal happiness is worthy of a public parade, do you?
[/SIZE]

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Given how unhappy I was for so many years, hiding my nature from the world, I am FINALLY happy to be who I am.
and because of the terrible way we are treated by society in general (i hope you like your closet if that's where you choose to be stuck), I am proud that I could finally be happy.

Go ahead and rain on my parade, but I am proud to say I have an awesome umbrella.

[Alice Torn]

Kaityn, I hope you read my secon post, as I addressed the suffring so many of us have inside, and by a society, that is mostly cruel about us. Like Freddy said, be happy and accepting. We do suffer in society, and families. big time, but not all the time. You got more guts than i do, if you go out often!

[Alice Torn]

[SIZE="3"]I need to correct myself again on my OP. The littlle fishing boat in the storm, was a 20 foot old wooden cabin cruiser, and another guy, my two brothers, and me went fishing , did not have a radio, or liferaft. We got caught in a storm, and thought we were shark food, for a whil, and were scared out of our wits. It was humbling! I did not feel very proud. We were not wise to have a raft, or radio. And, those guys were in the Coast Guard!![/SIZE]

[Kaitlyn Michele]

If i understand your analogy, I would point out that you and I were not "unwise" to be born this way... although it was humbling to transition when i was eased out of my job and kicked out of my marriage and mocked by people that saw me in my earlier days...i am quite proud i stuck it out to live my own best quality of life.. we are challenged as tg people in ways that are unfathomable to non tg people...one of those challenges it to love yourself..

There is a deep lack of self esteem going on here., and its a shame, because as you say, be happy and accepting and it will work out... what i would add is that you have to apply those words to your feelings about yourself..

If I screw up something, and I go to great lengths to fix it, I would feel some pride and some humility....if i am the recipient of terrible luck , and i overcome it, why can't i be proud out it...

[dawnmarrie1961]

.Why shouldn't we have "PRIDE" in who we are? Should we use the word "ASHAMED" instead to describe us? I don't think so.
I will admit that too much of anything is not a good thing. As human beings, creatures of excessiveness, we must constantly keep ourselves in check less we sow the seeds of our own demise. Too much pride becomes arrogance which leads to destruction.

[Alice Torn]

It is so interesting to go through some dictionaries, and look words up. Pride, can be a family of lions! There are a number of definitions of pride. The biggest defeat the Americans did to the British, was to butcher, pollute, and totally mess up the English language!!

[Schatten Lupus]

The biggest defeat the Americans did to the British, was to butcher, pollute, and totally mess up the English language!!

We've changed it, sure; but languages evolve throughout time. It's why we have so many different languages and dialects. We speak our own form of English, the British their own, and even the Australians have their own differences. Even different decades and eras have their own vocabulary that dies out and is replaced with new words from each new generation.