Hah!....that old joke.Originally Posted by CharleneT
.... about two years.....
Actually it applies the time between crossdresser and transsexual (or someone wanting to make a transition)
Hah!....that old joke..... about two years.....
Actually it applies the time between crossdresser and transsexual (or someone wanting to make a transition)
I think what a man who wears female attire calls himself may be governed by age. In my youth the only term I call recall was transvestite. Transgendered did not exist. Transsexual existed, but, that always seemed to relate to a person trapped in the body of the opposite sex.
I personally go with cross-dresser solely because the term seems 'softer' than transvestite. Like any person I have personal choices in fabric, in male or female mode. I do not dress because I like the feel of the fabric. I'm way past that! I dress for the peace of mind, release of stress that being en-femme brings me. I think some of us (me) have slight multiple personalities. Very confusing some times.
... for some people. For others it is about 5 years, or it could take 10, 20, or even 30 or 40 years. But for most, it is never.
Assuming you meant the difference between a crossdresser and a transsexual, of course.
Reine
I was always pressured to be transgendered as i am passable. But I realized, I love being a man and not shaving for a week and being able to do guy stuff. So i guess thats a big indicator! if you like scratching your junk and watching the game.. you might be a cd :P jk. jk.
I guess I've always kinda wonderd where I fit in in the so called list of labels.
Curently I'm ugly 75% of the time out of nececity. (I'm thinking this makes one a CD?) However, if God would grant me the mirical of waking up in the morning as a real woman from the ground up for the rest of my life, I would be one happy camper! Of course, if I could afford to, I'd take matters into my own hands. (which to me would make me TS?) I'm not for sure on this, but it's a lable I'd galdly acept. I have a hard time thinkking of myself as just a CD.
I would have to say both (Crossdresser because that is what I like to do) and Transgender for because I am tempted sometime to look at going full time.
Amanda
I think from what I have seen on these forums that there are many MtF cross-dressers who sometimes feel that they would not mind waking up as a 100% woman, but who for most of the time are content to be a guy who wears women's clothes. I do not believe that this feeling is the same thing as the acute dysphoria that generally defines a transsexual.
I'm not even sure that the feeling that if you had more money you might go the whole hog necessarily makes you transsexual.
I was going to write something about feeling you can no longer live a lie making you transsexual, but that is not true. IMNSHO, nothing can make you a transsexual, you either are or are not. What you choose to do with that determines whether you transition or not but not whether you are TS.
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That's interesting. Let's suppose you have such a person. What happens when as the person starts to dress in femme more and more that they start to want to be a woman more and more. What happens when they start to feel when they are in guy mode that they don't want to be there anymore, that they really want to be in femme mode. Let's suppose that they start to dislike the fact that they have to be in guy mode. Although they have not made the transition, would you say that transgender is more accurate than bigender? Could you go further and say they are transexual?
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Ionis, in your example, I would suggest this person was a TS all along but was perhaps reluctant to come to terms with it. But if she hates being in guy mode yet she is not sure about being TS, then I suggest she is TSQ (TS Questioning). This is different from being dualgender. And it is certainly a more accurate description than the "transgender" catch-all.
And if she is sure she is a woman but she opts for no SRS, then it is my understanding she is still TS, since I take it from the TSs in this forum that SRS is not a requisite for being TS.
Last edited by ReineD; 07-17-2011 at 01:18 AM.
Reine
I prefer Transdresser
Reine, it could be something that developed in stages, so I'm not sure it's accurate to say they were TS all along, unless we allow for a definition that would accommodate latent tendencies that just needed the right time, place, and circumstance to manifest. I don't know for sure, but that might broaden the definition to the point of making it somewhat meaningless, if the truth weere that all what you termed "bi-gender" persons really had such latent tendencies. Any rate, this is really interesting. Thanks for that response. I'm interested in hearing or learning more about this if you know more or could point me in the right direction.
Last edited by SweetIonis; 07-17-2011 at 02:24 AM. Reason: typo
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Ionis, I don't know if you are actually talking about your personal life, but in my experience, nearly all transsexuals can look back to indications that go way back - even though they have often suppressed the knowledge in an effort to conform.
In my case I suppressed the feelings first because at the age of 7 I did not know that other people might feel like this and didn't know how to talk to my parents about it. In my later teens and twenties I tried to dismiss the knowledge because I got mixed up with a religious group who (mistakenly but honestly) thought that gender and sexual orientation were matters of making the "right" choices.
In my thirties, I had to break off a relationship because I could never have been the husband that my loved one deserved.
In my forties, I had taken on responsibilities in the community that did not sit well with the idea of transitioning - and I still didn't know enough about the condition; besides which I thought you needed to be rich to get any help and I have never been rich.
I may be an extreme example, but nearly every TS I have spoken to since coming out as trans can recall incidents from their childhood where they had suppressed the memory in order to try to fit in with what society expected of them.
These were not so much "latent tendencies" as suppressed knowledge. I also told myself that there was no use transitioning because an ugly man would only become an ugly old woman that no-one would want to know.
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Galileo said "You cannot teach a man anything" and they accuse ME of being sexist
Never ascribe to malice that which can be easily explained by sheer stupidity
myself Crossdress I don't know why to tell the truth but totally rather see cd's. But in real life either or lol
Rianna, at this point I honestly don't think I am TS. That said, sometimes I do wonder if I'm headed in that direction. Some of the things associated with that, I empathize with when I am dressed.
I had never heard of this term bi-gender until now and I find the concept interesting. I personally find it somewhat confusing however, because I think that gender and sexuality are often used interchangeably. Honestly, I think there is a good reason for that. It's probably not the currently accepted view, but I feel that it's very difficult to ENTIRELY separate the issue of gender from sexuality. I could discuss that further, but I won't at this point.
The thing is this, as I said before, something intuitively tells me that it's possible that there could very well be a progression in stages from a person being bi-gender to becoming TS. I could very well be wrong, but I think wanting to be a person of the opposite gender exclusively is something that could very well develop as a person engages in more and more of the type of physical and emotional activity that is associated with the opposite gender. To give a crude example, two people can meet and fall in love instantly. But there is also the case of where two people meet, but over the course of time, by getting to know one another, they develop a strong attraction for each other. Anyway, that's just my opinion.
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I think that I agree with this statement, but I do not believe that it applies to Transsexuals for a couple of reasons:
In my experience,Transsexuals do not want to be a person of the opposite gender, we are people whose gender is in opposition to our birth-sex, although many of us waste a lot of time trying to deny that fact.
We see our birth-sex as representing "the opposite gender" so when we (from necessity) finally accept our need to transition, we are engaging in activity associated with our true gender. Some of us have wasted decades trying to portray a gender that we do not understand at all.
Where I think that your statement may well apply is for cross-dressers who get caught up in the dreaded Pink Fog.
The major difference for me is that, as far as I understand, MtF identity cross-dressers self-identify as men but who sometimes express the feminine part of their nature in their mode of dress and in their actions. MtF TS folk self-identify as women who were born in the wrong body. (FtM TS folk are men who were born in the wrong body).
I accept that a small proportion of TS folk will have started out by only trying to tell themselves that they were cross-dressers before giving in to the inevitable and accepting that they are really men born in a woman's or women born in a man's body. In some ways I was one of those because when I finally had to act on my Dysphoria I tried everything I could to be "a guy in a dress" but it didn't work because I already knew the first part to be a lie (I have never been "a guy").
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Galileo said "You cannot teach a man anything" and they accuse ME of being sexist
Never ascribe to malice that which can be easily explained by sheer stupidity
Ionis, this is exactly my understanding of it as well.
That said, and to complicate things further, there are variables that will affect the degree of "happiness" or "satisfaction" that someone who is not TS will have in being male: from whether or not he is engaged or successful in his male life (i.e. career or other passions, romantic relationship, whether or not he has kids, for example), to different personality characteristics such as whether or not he is pragmatic, or can live in the moment, or does not have an "all or nothing" outlook on life, etc., to even the degree such a person might romanticize what being a woman is all about. Is it the fantasy of being a beautiful, "sought after" woman that is driving the desire for the switch or is it the knowledge that one is already a woman, warts and all, even if one is not beautiful.
I think it takes a concerted effort for TGs who struggle with this to try to be as realistic as they can with what living as an ordinary woman is all about, while at the same time trying to determine if she is really female or is it is his preconceived idea of maleness or any dissatisfaction of his male life that he is running away from.
Another consideration: most of us, males, females, and transfolks do grow up in a world that is outwardly split into the male/female gender binary and it is very difficult for anyone to imagine the existence of a third gender, so to speak, that has a real mix of both (as opposed to CDing for fetish, for fun or love of fashion, or for fantasy purposes). It takes an ability to let go of what is the known and the familiar, and be able to embrace the uncertain, elastic gender swings, or really a state of being that is a real gender mix. I think my SO discovered something like this when she was expanding her own definitions of herself and this is why she came to the conclusion she is dualgender, a mix of both all the time, rather than bigender which is more alternating from one to the other. And she/he has arranged her life so as to be able to switch back and forth with ease, according to her moods and needs, in other words whether or not it is her feminine self or masculine self that is more at the forefront on any given day.
I'm not wanting to put words in my SO's mouth or anything, but this is my understanding of it all. My SO prefers to just "be" whoever she is and she has no need to use words to define it.
Last edited by ReineD; 07-18-2011 at 05:29 PM.
Reine
Rihanna and Reine, thanks to both of you for the thoughtful responses. This is surely a difficult subject matter and I think you are both dealing with it nicely.
I understand what both of you have said and I don't disagree with what you have put forward. That said, let me clarify my remarks. I believe that it is possible, through the process of operant conditioning, for a person's ego to develop in such a way that the person feels that their gender conflicts and is opposite to their birth sex. At this point it's not that they merely WANT to be a person of the other gender, they actually BELIEVE they are a person of the opposite gender. And despite the depth of both of your replies, I don't think that either of you has provided a rational necessity that one lead one to conclude that such a phenomenon is not possible. That could be the result of the lack of clarity on my part.
Since I don't think we have any problem in the case of a person who from birth feels that their gender is in opposition to their birth sex, let's look at the case of a person who has romanticized fantasy of what being a woman is all about. Leaving a lengthy discussion on what a person's male life consists of aside, let's further suppose that there are substantial factors in this regard that are pushing the person from his "male" life. So now we have a person who for these reasons has started to behave in a manner that is consistent with what he believes are activities the opposite sex engages in. Let's go further and suppose that he get's substantial positive psychological reinforcement from his environment when he engages in behavior consistent with his romanticized fantasy. This leads him into further behavior which in turn leads to further reinforcement. This in turn leads him to expand his activities further to the point in which his mind is absorbed in thought behaving like a person of the desired gender. At a certain point I believe conditioning will cause the conceptualization to become emblazoned in this person's mind in such a way that their ego identifies with that of the desired gender. When that takes place, he will feel dissatisfied with his body, birth sex if you will, and will feel that he is in the wrong body and therefore will desire a change. In such a state he is no different in the person who feels that way from birth aside from the way that he arrived to that point. Therefore we could say that such a person is a TS.
You can take the smartest person and through the process of conditioning, by controlling their environment, sensory and emotional input, and make them believe they are the dumbest person in the world. This demonstrates that it is possible to change the nature of a person's ego substantially. And that's my point. A person can arrive at the point of feeling that they are a person's whose gender is opposite to their birth sex through the process of conditioning.
Please, if you have some rebuttal or any other insight in this regard, I am certainly willing to hear it.
Last edited by SweetIonis; 07-18-2011 at 08:29 PM.
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I aways thought the difference was a $40,000 dollar operation.
Orchid
I know. It's difficult enough to define it for oneself, and doubly so when trying to communicate the full breadth of meaning to someone else.
Not a rebuttal so much as a few questions.
The positive reinforcement you speak of: where is this taking place, in what environment, specifically?
Is the person in your example going out as her femme self in the mainstream? Is she well received wherever she goes and is she being looked upon and treated as a woman? Also, is she developing more intimate relationships with people such as friendships with GGs who do accept her as a woman? The men in her life: does she go out on dates, or is she accepted by the men in her life as a woman even if they are just friends? Is her family, or are her older friends and coworkers accepting, not to the point of polite tolerance, but in a way that she knows they want to get to know her new female self and continue being friends?
Or, is the scope of her outings limited to TG groups, outings with TG (or selected cis) friends at restaurants or alternative/trans bars, where she is told repeatedly how feminine and how natural she looks? Does she go to places where men are looking to meet TGs and so who contribute to her positive feedback? In other words, is she constructing for herself a microcosm of acceptance and validation? If this is the case, how will she survive when she goes out in the real world and she discovers that people outside the trans community won't treat her the same way, with as much encouragement and validation?
How is she to know that the world of selected positive reinforcement she has built for herself in the environment described above is real?
This is why I question people who discover later in life a desire to become a woman, based on selected environments where positive reinforcement is received. There is simply too large a chance that this method of determining one's innate gender is wrong. A person has a much greater chance for happiness after transition is she knows without a doubt she is a woman, no matter what environment she places herself in, or what conditioning she has received.
If however, she has always known she is a woman, even if for some years this knowledge was suppressed as Rianna suggests, then it is a different matter entirely.
Last edited by ReineD; 07-19-2011 at 12:28 AM.
Reine
SweetIonis,
I think I understand what you are saying. Here's how I see it after a ton of research but admittedly no first hand experience so please take it with a grain of salt.
Let's take the person who is aware from a very young age that they are a female even though their natal sex is male. Let's put them at the very right side of a continuum. On the very left side we'll place those who enjoy wearing women's clothing for sexual gratification only. As we start to move from that far left side, we may find someone who crossdresses to relax but still enjoys their man side. Everyone on the continuum is Transgendered up to the point that the person on the very right either undergoes a social (without SRS) or medical transition at which point they become TS. We might agree that somewhere in the middle of the continuum is a person who feels very comfortable presenting in female mode sometimes and in male mode at others and likely spends half their time presenting as each gender. Let's call that dual gendered. Now somewhere between the middle and the far right are those who are questioning just how much of their gender identity is female. I think you are asking if it's possible for environmental issues to influence what you believe your gender identity to be. The fact that there is no objective measure to "tell" a person where they naturally belong on that continuum means that people have to "feel" their way around to arrive at a conclusion. I believe that there are a number of factors that would lead a TG to jump to the conclusion that they are a TS. I think those factors have to do with a combination of physical features, personality and life circumstances. Let's say that a TG has been blessed with physical features that lend themselves to being female (small framed, not very tall, very fine facial features, no square jaw, hardly noticeable adam's apple. And let's say that when they transform, they are extremely attractive but in male mode, not so much. They get a ton of compliments and attention when they present in female mode. Now let's say they have an all or nothing type personality...one of those folks who are over achievers and feel they have to be the very best at whatever they set out to do. Now let's go one step further and let's say they are at a point in their lives where kids are grown and gone, the marriage has dissolved and their energy for their career is fading. Let's also say that person is tired of being transgendered and they long for a life as either male or female but not a life where there's lots of secrecy and hiding. I believe that if you took two people in those very same circumstances who both decide to transition, one may find resolution in transition while another may not.
It is for this reason that I think the decision to transition should not be made in haste. I cannot imagine how horrible life would be to make all the trade-offs that a transition might entail and then still not find peace. There are many references to the "pink fog" and while I'm sure everyone would agree that such an important decision should not be made while they're in a pink fog, I believe it's entirely possible for that pink fog to last a very long time and for the TG to not realize they are in a pink fog.
I'm open to debate here. I'm just throwing this out to see what you all think.
Speck
Reine, excellent post. To be totally honest, I had not thought the matter out as well as you, and I feel you have brought up an excellent point. I suppose, I had envisioned it started in a confined way and branching out in some sort of vague fashion, keeping the aspect of a substantial amount of positive feedback for each experience. The purpose of the construct was not to examine the outcome of the decision to transition, but to demonstrate that a person could arrive at a point where they identified themselves exclusively as a person of the gender opposite to their birth sex through conditioning due to environmental factors. That said, I am compelled to agree with you thus far that these are very substantial considerations that should be taken into account before such a decision should be made.
That said I do have a problem with SOME of what you put forward after that. But I will come back to it later.
Another great response! Yes, you are exactly right! I was putting forward the notion that environmental issues can have a huge influence on what one perceives there gender to be. And as a result, it's not a prerequisite that someone has to feel that way from birth to come to a point where they consider their gender to opposite to their birth sex. I like the way you framed the issue.
Now I think both you and Reine focused on what the possible outcomes of such a decision would be. So let's move to that.
Reine, here I have a problem with your assertion that this method of determining one's gender is wrong. And I say that because I feel that you are making the mistake of conceptualizing the process as a thought out methodology meant to achieve the desired result of being able to determine one's gender as opposed to actions and decisions that were made as a result of the positive feedback we discussed earlier that lead to certain consequences . I want to make a closing point to this, but first I want to bring in what the other poster said because I think it will apply there as well.
Speck, what I want to say to both you and Reine, is that I think both of you are ignoring a crucial point here. A person who REALLY feels that they are a member of the gender that is opposite their birth sex, does not choose to feel that way. Regardless of whether they arrived at that point from birth, through positive reinforcement under limited circumstances or more favorable expanded circumstances, they just feel that way and they really can't help it. This situation is quite different from being in the pink fog, at least as I understand it. For a man, he would just feel like he's a woman from dawn until dusk and that's all it is too it. As a result, the person will be FORCED to make some sort of adjustment, whether that involves a full transition,a partial one or adjusting his activities to give his gender identity some satisfaction, a change will have to be made. Otherwise this person is almost certain to experience some sort of psychological problem that will be a result of the huge conflict that exists between functioning as a male, while actually having a female gender identification.
Thanks you guys so much for the responses thus far. When I read them I was so happy that chills went up my spine! Seriously! I hope you don't think ill of me for that, but it's just that I am so happy to find that there are such intelligent people in this group. I makes me happy to be here among you. I am feeling more and more at home here!
Last edited by SweetIonis; 07-19-2011 at 10:24 PM.
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You beat me to it..... about two years.....
My name is Carol.
SweetIonis,
I actually agree that changes need to be made in order to express your true self. However, the type and degree of changes that are needed to be emotionally healthy would depend on where you are on the continuum. I'm not convinced that a full transition is the right decision for everyone who feels they are at the extreme right of that continuum. If the trade-offs are such that you lose a good marriage or a well paying job or other important things in life, I think there are alternatives. As I say this, I just want to be clear that I completely understand someone who has reached a point where they simply can no longer manage the conflict. Just as with other things in life, everyone handles things differently. Being born with a gender identity that doesn't match your natal sex might actually not be a problem if we lived in a society that wasn't so intolerant of the "condition" (I'm not even sure it's a condition). However, the reality is that society has not yet reached a level of understanding that would make it a non-issue.
I have seen time and again people on this forum who say that if it weren't for a few things they hold dear, they would transition in a nano second. Many of these MTFs have found a way to make it work and I admire them. There are thousands of stories of people who face adversity and not only find ways to manage but they make a very positive impact in the world.
I don't want to bore you with details but my own life is an example. Granted, I've never felt a conflict with my gender but I have faced some monumental challenges and not only am I still standing, I have many, many accomplishments that I can be proud of. For all my material possessions, all my beauty and talents, that make for a pleasant life, the only thing I simply could not walk away from are a few relationships that mean the world to me.
We all have needs but as long as there is an element of choice, the pros and cons should be weighed very carefully not only to avoid hurting other people but to avoid living in misery and regret.
Apologies if I rambled but you seemed interested in my point of view.
Speck
Speck,
I think you are so right. Every one of us has different situations, personalities, goals, sets of relationships, mental states, and restrictions. So there is not going to be any right answer that fits all situations. Having said that tho, it's kind of hard for me to imagine how a person on the extreme right of that spectrum could manage if they had to act in a male role all the time. I suppose it's possible, but that would require a tremendous amount of emotional, physical, and intellectual control. Like I said being at the extreme right means you feel that way ALL the time. And those are strong feelings. How someone could manage day to day having to go contrary to that is mind boggling. Actually I am interested in hearing more about your experience. If you don't mind, please PM me!
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I have another question for you, although it will be nearly impossible to answer. If this person did not have the physique that she has, the "passability" so to speak, and had she not enjoyed all this positive reinforcement as the result, from members or admirers in the TG community (assuming this is where she did get it ... I've seen this before), would she still feel she is a woman?
In other words, do the feelings that she doesn't want to be a man any more come from the positive reinforcements she receives? If there were no positive reinforcements, if most people ignored her or worse, eyed her with suspicion, would she still derive deep satisfaction from living her life as a woman? A TS would, because she is a woman.
I believe that gender feelings come from within. Although we may somewhat be influenced, especially during the formative years, by what people think we are or should be, self-identification as an adult is much deeper than any positive reinforcement we may or may not receive in environments that we seek out specifically because they are supportive.
Don't underestimate pink fog. It is very powerful. I'm not speaking of the giddy, delightful feeling of being feminine here, but of the illusion of altered reality that it can produce, even down to perhaps seeing a different image in the mirror than others see. It is possible for someone in a pink fog to bring herself to believe she is TS even if she is not. I believe there is a specific allure with the trappings of femininity that is associated with a pink fog, that I do not think is present when a TS wakes up in the morning and she knows in the deepest part of herself that she is a woman, no matter what she looks like or what she does.
I agree though, this person will have to find a way to deal with how she will live her life. It is my understanding that TSs reach a point where living as a male even if just for work simply is no longer an option. But, whether she is TS or not, if she is enamored with her life of TG nightclubs, sparkly dresses, and men who are interested in her even though she may not be interested in them, it will be difficult for her to find anything in her regular life that is interesting in comparison. It will be like taking a drug away. But, it is worth taking these things away if only to determine how she feels without that type of positive reinforcement. She may discover that she is in fact a guy or dualgender who is in love with the idea of being a woman more than the actual fact. Or, she may well discover that she doesn't need all the positive reinforcement in order to feel good within herself as a woman. The only way to tell is to dress like an every day woman, blue jeans and all and go grocery shopping. Or get the car fixed. Or strike up a conversation with someone at Starbucks. Or join clubs or perhaps volunteer and hang out with cis people, even if they know she is trans. Over and over again, for 2 years even. And if at any time she misses the glitz and glamor, she should try to resist it until she determines who she is.
If the prospect of doing ordinary things while wearing ordinary clothes is not alluring to her, then I don't think she is TS. Still, if she decides to explore this further she would have to first get over the excitement or nervousness of going out in the mainstream, before determining how it really feels, and this is why it takes time. And lots and lots of going out in regular, ordinary circumstances.
At any rate, if she distances herself from the glitz, then she can make proper decisions for herself. It might also not hurt to seek gender counseling, but with the idea of determining the best course of action given the internal conflict, rather than find someone who will take her word that she is TS and prescribe HRT just "to see" if they will help relieve her anxiety.
If she does eventually determine that she is not TS but is dualgender, then it will take a concerted effort to try to seek balance not necessarily in terms of the quantity of time dressed, but rather an internal balance in reaching some satisfaction in being who he is again. This will mean integrating all aspects of his gender. He may wish to do things as a guy that he had not previously given himself permission to do, all while enjoying the more ordinary, day-to-day outings as a girl, in other words, go with the flow. This is the only real way to be happy in my opinion (if she is not TS), without constantly falling prey to a pink fog's unfulfilled wish that life should be different.
And also she should stay away from the TG nightclub's siren songs until she knows, without a doubt, who she is.
Sorry for the long post. Also, please keep in mind that I'm not an expert, but I've written simply what makes good, solid sense to me.
Last edited by ReineD; 07-24-2011 at 06:29 PM. Reason: grammar
Reine
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