The truth about tolerance/acceptance.

[Nicole Erin]

The honest bigot draws the line of gender in public while the hippocrite draws that line at the restroom door.

[Loretta]

You know, I don't really think that's true. Bigotry comes in all forms, regardless of where it happens. Hypocrisy has nothing to do with it, as it wouldn't be proper to call somebody that if they weren't actually being hypocrites.
I can understand the restroom thing. Really, I can. A lot of people are creeped out by a man sharing the same restroom as a woman, when the men and women's bathrooms are separated. I mean, some crossdressers cannot pass well enough to make people think they are women, which would make it okay for them to use those facilities. It's a shame, I know, but it's not a perfect world, is it? People will always have their quirks and quandaries.

[Gillian Gigs]

It is all a matter of prospective. I was in more than one public washroom in France, that was separated by a wall that was approx. 48 inches high. These were the walls that the men would piss against, so they were looking directly into the womens side. I will not go into the sanitary, or smell side of it.

The problem of tolerance, is that it is still not acceptance. Hippocricy is in all of us, it just comes in varying degrees.

[Karren H]

They really need do genetic scans before letting you in the correct restroom... Or just let everyone go back behind a tree.

[DonnaT]

I can understand the restroom thing. Really, I can. A lot of people are creeped out by a man sharing the same restroom as a woman, when the men and women's bathrooms are separated. I mean, some crossdressers cannot pass well enough to make people think they are women, which would make it okay for them to use those facilities.

Change the word "crossdressers" for --transsexuals-- and ask, is your answer still the same.

Some TSs who may have had GRS 20 years, may still look every bit like a man in a dress, would you still tell her to use the men's room just because she doesn't pass?

If not, how do you differentiate a CD from a TS?

[Iskandra]

I don't see the issue! toilets should simply be unisex..
You enter a stall, it's private from prying eyes, you do your business, hoik up your pants or let your skirt drop and exit..

Unless women parade in front of the sink/hand basin area showing their pubes!?
I see no reason why the part outside the stalls can't be shared..
Heck, who hasn't watched a femme apply makeup or wash their hands?

If a woman feels uncomfortabe sharing a sink with a guy, she should not ask him to help with the dishes!!

[Momarie]

I think respect goes both ways.

If I saw a well meaning CD or TS in a woman's restroom being respectful, I would do my best to make them feel comfortable and treat them with extreme courtesy and respect.

But if they are in there like it's some kind of playground or seeking affirmation by making me feel uncomfortable, I would notify management.

To ISKANDRA and others....
Being men, you don't understand.
It's a safe place, it's a refuge for a few moments, it's an escape...it's why they are sometimes called the ladies lounge.
We repair ourselves...both in spirit and cosmetically.
We sometimes seek shelter there.
We relieve ourselves in privacy.

I know there are some CD/TS that must understand this intuatively....please help me explain in terms that might be understood.

[Cynthia Anne]

They really need do genetic scans before letting you in the correct restroom... Or just let everyone go back behind a tree.

I still use the tree unless I'm in town! Then I use the ladies tree!
By the way Karen your new avatar is soo cute!

[Momarie]

ISKANDRA:
"Unless women parade in front of the sink/hand basin area showing their pubes!? "

So incredibly tasteless....this is why I don't want men like you in the ladies room.

[minalost]

I don't see the issue! toilets should simply be unisex..
You enter a stall, it's private from prying eyes, you do your business, hoik up your pants or let your skirt drop and exit..

Unless women parade in front of the sink/hand basin area showing their pubes!?
I see no reason why the part outside the stalls can't be shared..
Heck, who hasn't watched a femme apply makeup or wash their hands?

If a woman feels uncomfortabe sharing a sink with a guy, she should not ask him to help with the dishes!!

I lived in Japan for a few years when in high school, and the bathrooms there are (or were, this was back in the late 1970s) unisex. Not a big deal.

[Emily Ann Brown]

When I go in the restroom, I want a quiet place to do what we do in a restroom, and then got the hell out of Dodge.

Em

[Kaz]

ISKANDRA:
"Unless women parade in front of the sink/hand basin area showing their pubes!? "

So incredibly tasteless....this is why I don't want men like you in the ladies room.

Momarie, whilst I totally understand where you are coming from and will agree on taste and tastelessness I think this post was meant in good faith. The issue as I understand it was that we could have unisex toilets if we all did what we wanted to keep private within the "stalls" or whatever word is a good word to describe cubicles. i.e. and treat this as as a generalisation, because it is... men also parade around showing theirs? I think the post-er had that in mind, ie about upsetting people by being "exposed".

I have no problem with seeing other people exposed, but would feel uncomfortable if I was... and if someone saw me "exposed" when I wasn't prepared for it I would be acutely embarrassed!

There is another issue and that is that if this was perfectly normal behaviour... ie we all shared common facilities and we all saw each other "exposed" would this be good or bad? There are good arguements on both sides... but for now...

I think the ladies room is sacred... To go in there as a CD you had better pass b****y well! And I am on their side on this!

[Nikki A.]

Kaz, as far as using the facilities. If I am dressed, then I use the ladies room. I am in and out with little fuss or bother. I can't use the men's room if presenting as a woman now can I?

[Schatten Lupus]

I really don't see why a restroom is such a big deal. People just get too excited over the most trivial of things. Very few people get sexually aroused by waste removal, and if restrooms had nothing but stalls, then why should there be the fuss? Especially considering there are already many places that don't have gender-segregated restrooms.

[Annaliese2010]

The honest bigot draws the line of gender in public while the hippocrite draws that line at the restroom door.

That went right over my head... OMG i'm getting dumb... I guess i WONT dye my hair blond as i was once considering...

[Momarie]

Kaz,
Whilst I totally try to understand where you are coming from....

I have a HUGE problem being exposed or seeing anyone else exposed, especially in a woman's restroom (or even HEARING him straining and grunting or his hydraulic pissing)

"There is another issue and that is that if this was perfectly normal behaviour... ie we all shared common facilities and we all saw each other "exposed" would this be good or bad? There are good arguments on both sides... but for now..."

WTF???
Yeah, HUGE PROBLEM!!!
As in CALL THE COPS kinda problem!!!

The original post was in good faith? Don't think so.

[ReineD]

I see no reason why the part outside the stalls can't be shared..
Heck, who hasn't watched a femme apply makeup or wash their hands?

But if they are in there like it's some kind of playground or seeking affirmation by making me feel uncomfortable, I would notify management.

I know there are some CD/TS that must understand this intuatively....please help me explain in terms that might be understood.

Iskandra, if you're talking about a no-nonsense, do your business, wash hands, refresh lipstick and get out, "no big deal" approach, then this is OK.

But unfortunately there are many CDers for whom going into a ladies room is akin to a spiritual experience. There's almost an "I want to experience the 'secret club'", "feather-in-your-cap" approach to it, and this is what Momarie is talking about. Ladies rest rooms are not there for the enjoyment of those who CD because it gives them a thrill to be considered one of the girls. Such a person in a ladies' room would creep me out too, if I was approached for a "chat" just because a CD thinks we go in there to "bond" with other GGs.

So, how do we differentiate between those who legitimately belong in there, and those who are more voyeuristic? The only answer I have is to make all the bathrooms in this country unisex, which would take the ladies' room mystique out of it for the opportunistic CDs. This would also hopefully make the men behave, who might read a CD in the same bathroom, since there would be ladies present in front of whom it would not be cool to beat someone up. And also have a single, private washroom facility nearby, for the women (or the men) who don't wish to go into unisex bathrooms.

But somehow I don't think most Americans would go for this though. And I don't know how well this would go over in other parts of the world as well.


... so I guess I don't really have an answer.


EDIT
Oh, and on the subject of allowing TSs and CDs to use the ladies' rooms in order to protect them from men who would potentially beat them up in mens' rooms .... now we need to worry about women doing the same thing. Does anyone remember the McDonald's incident, where it was two GGs who beat up the TS? Female violence is on the rise. Allowing TSs and CDs in ladies' rooms is no longer a guarantee for safety. So maybe next to the unisex bathrooms, there could be more than one single user facility, for both men and women who don't like unisex bathrooms and for transfolks who feel threatened because they are in the wrong part of town or they don't pass.

[Iskandra]

ISKANDRA:
"Unless women parade in front of the sink/hand basin area showing their pubes!? "

So incredibly tasteless....this is why I don't want men like you in the ladies room.

Men like me? lol.. The point I was making is that such tasteless behavior/exposure doesn't happen in the bathrooms.. It was a tongue in cheek rhetorical question, Nothing to do with any (non existant) desire to perv on anyone.
Any nakedness occurs behind a locked door.. So whats the issue?!

I have a HUGE problem being exposed or seeing anyone else exposed, especially in a woman's restroom (or even HEARING him straining and grunting or his hydraulic pissing)

I don't care to see strangers exposed either, as for straining, grunting and as you so tastelessly put it, hydraulic pissing, I've heard plenty of women do the same.. Then theres the sound of purging/vomiting accompanied by that acrid smell that makes me ill.. Hmm maybe unisex loo's are not such a great idea!

Reine, yes thats what I was talking about, do ones business and leave. But thank you for explaining the mysteries of female toilet behaviour..

[Fab Karen]

"two GGs who beat up the TS? Female violence is on the rise. Allowing TSs and CDs in ladies' rooms is no longer a guarantee for safety."
Those two definitely weren't ladies.
Yeah, those Sex & the City episodes where Carrie is bonding with complete strangers in the ladies room is pretty much total fiction ( especially in New York City ). A restroom is for call-of-nature, and cleaning your hands, maybe a quick touch-up of make-up.

"So, how do we differentiate between those who legitimately belong in there, and those who are more voyeuristic? "
Same ( non ) issue exists with lesbians in the ladies room. Fact is, a pervert, whether female or ( genetically ) male, attempting to see something in there would be obvious.

[Babette]

The honest bigot draws the line of gender in public while the hypocrite draws that line at the restroom door.

Nicole, I think that I understand the general drift of where you going with this. However, I am not comfortable with your labels describing either type.

When I use any restroom, I like some privacy! That's the way I am and will probably always be. There is no thrill for me with using a ladies' room, men's room or a public outhouse. When I walk into a public men's room and there is no wall separating any of the lavatory devices, I want to turn around and leave. So if there is anyone else that feels this way, then you have my respect.

There is one foreign country that I have visited 7 times. Every time I have departed the plane and used the airport men's room, there will be a lady inside cleaning everything. Furthermore, its her job to keep that facility spotless and she never leaves. She will come up and clean a urinal while I am trying to use the one beside her. Apparently that country's culture has no hangups about gender separation in a public restroom. Excuse me, but running into this situation every time leaves me a bit uneasy. I don't consider myself a bigot or a hypocrite but for crying out loud, I want a little privacy.

I don't believe it is reasonable to expect our more conservative societies to embrace unconditional acceptance of our desire (or urgent need) to use the ladies' room. At least in my part of the world, there will be a lot of GG's with uneasy feelings about this.

Has anyone else noticed the growing number of businesses and public buildings now providing Gender neutral restrooms? Some of these are called family restrooms. Only one person can use this room (and have some privacy). If you think about it, airplanes have been offering gender neutral restrooms from the start.

OK, this is enough of my rant.

Babette

[Vickie_CDTV]

Problem is, beyond the cultural norms, there is a real safety issue for women. A GG going into the men's room does not pose a threat to the men as a man in the women's room might. Out in public alone in a room with one exit (usually) I can understand why having men in there might scare women. Obviously, TGs do not go into the women's room to rape women, but given the age of insanity we live in coupled with the little to no knowledge the average GG has of us I can understand why they would be nervous. Personally, I have no desire to go in there and upset GGs, I would much rather use a third option (a single user option) and only do so if I am absolutely pressed.

As far as the family restrooms go, they are a such a great boon for us. I doubt that they were put in there with us in mind, but for the growing problem of mothers who have to assist their opposite sex special needs child or such and can't bring them into the female restroom without causing problems. At the same time it solves two potential problems and everyone benefits.

[DonnaT]

I know of no reported issue of someone who is transgender attacking GGs in any restroom. Self perceived safety is the issue, but actual problems with safety are rarer than rare.

Safety in the restroom is the biggest red herring with respect to trying to get gender antidiscrimination legislation passed.

And quite a mistake. The biggest part of the mistake is no one is considering the transman.

Many transmen grow beards, bulk up, etc. If the legal issue is, born a man use the men's room, then it also has to be born a woman use the ladies room. So, a guy with a beard enters the ladies restroom, what will happen?

Likely, all hell will break out. But he may be legally required to be there.

Now, some GM perv decides, hmm, I can just say I'm a transman and use the ladies restroom. No need to dress like a woman.

I think this would be a bigger safety issue to worry about. Especially if you saw a bearded man follow your daughter into a restroom. Do you launch into protection mode and attack the bearded person? And if that person is a transman and legally obligated to use the ladies restroom are you setting yourself up for assault charges?

How is that supposed to be policed? Are attendants to be assigned to all restrooms to do a body check? Aren't there enough issues with TSA screening?

Unisex bathrooms for multiple users isn't the answer, because there are more people uncomfortable sharing, than not.

Maybe separate bathrooms for transmen, transwomen, men and women? Still, how do you know if the person is trans or not. There have been more than a few instances of a butch woman being accosted in the ladies room, by male security even. Do we need separate restrooms for butch women and fem men?

We can't satisfy everyone, nor protect everyone. We all have our own basic needs for privacy, or not, and needs for feeling safe.

Don't want people primping in front of the mirrors, remove the mirrors. Don't want people just hanging out in the restroom, remove the sofas and/or other unnecessary amenities.

Go in, do your bodily functions, washup and leave.

[ReineD]

Unisex bathrooms for multiple users isn't the answer, because there are more people uncomfortable sharing, than not.

It would take time, I think they could be phased in along with other alternatives, such as single user bathrooms, but it might be doable. It certainly would remove the need to ask for gender ID at the door. Plus, moms with young sons, or dads with young daughters could go into the restrooms with their children! I remember feeling uneasy when my little guys no longer wanted to go into the ladies room with me, and I sent them into the mens room. Being little guys, they'd take forever and I can't tell you how many men I had to go up to and make an on the spot decision as to whether they were trustworthy enough to ask if they could go in and check.

A few mall clothing stores that cater to younger people already have unisex changing rooms. There is a bank of cubicles along the back wall, with a common space in front of them all where the three way mirrors are located. I always thought this was an efficient way to do things and the people in their teens and young adults don't seem to have a problem with it.

[Schatten Lupus]

This thread is a good reminder of how disgustingly divided our "community" is. We are fighting over using a goddamned restroom! How are we supposed to demand equal rights and protection when we are trying to establish rules of who can and who can't use the women's restroom? Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but as some have pointed out a restroom exist for relieving yourself, washing up, and reapplying makeup. And there are plenty of places that have men and women in the same restroom. And so what if there isn't the 'girls club'? You either want to present as and be treated as a woman or you don't. I'm not trying to say who is and who isn't, but there are transwomen in Iran who live as males and then live as extremely oppressed women because that is who they are.
And what of places that not only have both genders in the same restrooms, but the same shower rooms? Sometimes fears are nothing more than the bogyman whispering into our ears.

[Vickie_CDTV]

I know of no reported issue of someone who is transgender attacking GGs in any restroom.

I know that, we know that, but the uninitiated GG does not so i can understand why she might be nervous, even if it is not founded.

And quite a mistake. The biggest part of the mistake is no one is considering the transman.

Since most transmen can eventually pass very well it is probably less of a problem, and even then a 'butch' GG in the men's room is not going to be perceived by the men as a threat or accused of being there for anything other than practical reasons.