Are crossdressers pragmatists or narcissistic dreamers

[SweetIonis]

I know I am a narcissistic dreamer. Honestly the only thing that keeps me grounded is that I like girls so much, that I go to work so I won't be broke and my girl will be happy. I find that being in a technical profession where things are either right or wrong forces me to abandon deceit, hubris, and be humble and real.

I was thinking, cross dressing appears to me to be perfectly compatible with someone, like me, who is a narcissistic dreamer. My question is this, can this be true of crossdressers in general? What do you all think?

[midnightMelissa]

Hello Ionis

Perhaps you are right however I still think that this view will still be (and should be) determined by ones own self.

M

[SweetIonis]

My response to that is that any healthy self evaluation should take into consideration how one is viewed by others.

[Kathi Lake]

Are crossdressers pragmatists or narcissistic dreamers?

Yes.



Are some pragmatists? Yup. Are some us us dreamers? Definitely! Why try to lump all of us together?

Kathi

[sissystephanie]

As Kathi said, in her own way, we are all individuals!! Probably some are pragmatists and some are narcissistic dreamers!! But that is their life, not ours!! We are all different, and thank God for that!!

I guess the major question is, why do you or anybody care?

[Pythos]

Well, I don't consider myself a narcissist. I have read about what a narcissist is, and I don't like it. LOL

Looking at the definitions of both, I don't think I fit in either category.

I need to think more on this.

[Melody Moore]

I was thinking, cross dressing appears to me to be perfectly compatible with someone, like me, who is a
narcissistic dreamer. My question is this, can this be true of crossdressers in general? What do you all think?

The outright answer is 'No!', because you cannot ever generalise & paint anyone with such a broad brush!

Within the wide transgender spectrum there is a huge diversity of people who cross-dress & others who don't.

Some might appear to be cross-dressers to you but in their perception they are not cross-dressers & many
will feel like they are cross-dressing if they presented in their biological birth sex. And the reason for that is
because your gender identity is not defined by your biological birth sex. So for some transgendered people
here cross-dressing is a merely a phase they go through on their journey towards full transition. Also you
should remember that in the transgender spectrum you als have gender queers & they don't identify as
male or female, and they might dress androgynous in 'drab'. Others might think that this is cross-dressing
when it is just merely an expression of the gender identities.

So the upshot of all this, is NEVER generalise about anything to do with anyone in the transgender community
and this way you can learn to understand others and know exactly who you are and where you fit in here. And
here I am still thinking I am 'A mere babe in the woods'. I think it's time I thought about changing that line.

[SuzanneBender]

I'm Catholic with a little Buddist mixed in. I never like the way those Narcissists always hit you up in the airport for donations.

I am confused are you humble and real or a narcissist? The narcissist is excessively preoccupied with issues of personal adequacy, power, prestige and vanity. Narcissism is closely linked to self centerdness and from what I sense in your post that is not an accurate description of you.

The ladies are right it is difficult to generalize about someone just because they are transgender, but my experience with this community leads me to believe that most of the ladies are sharing, caring and there for one another. The opposite of narcissism. I believe that you consider yourself more of an idealistic dreamer than a narcissistic dreamer.

[Karren H]

I'm an engineer and I have no clue what either one of those are!!

[AllieSF]

Vive el ingeniero! I like to keep it simple. I am Popeye the Sailor Man, I am what I am! We are all broad brushed transgenders in my definition and that sounds good to me. Now, I love myself, is that narcissistic?

[suzy1]

I think someone is trying to slap a label on us again girls.

SUZY

[Jeanna]

I'm in a technical profession and I still get runs in my nylons! I might be a pragmatist.

[SweetIonis]

Yes.



Are some pragmatists? Yup. Are some us us dreamers? Definitely! Why try to lump all of us together?

Kathi

Kathi, I honestly don't know the answer. I was just speaking for myself and trying to see how others feel about themselves and what they thought about it in general.

Well, I don't consider myself a narcissist. I have read about what a narcissist is, and I don't like it. LOL

Looking at the definitions of both, I don't think I fit in either category.

I need to think more on this.

Pythos, a bit of narcissism can be a good thing as long as it is balanced with something else. Honestly, I feel a bit of it is an essential quality of leadership. It's bad when it gets to be extreme.

I'm Catholic with a little Buddist mixed in. I never like the way those Narcissists always hit you up in the airport for donations.

I am confused are you humble and real or a narcissist? The narcissist is excessively preoccupied with issues of personal adequacy, power, prestige and vanity. Narcissism is closely linked to self centerdness and from what I sense in your post that is not an accurate description of you.

The ladies are right it is difficult to generalize about someone just because they are transgender, but my experience with this community leads me to believe that most of the ladies are sharing, caring and there for one another. The opposite of narcissism. I believe that you consider yourself more of an idealistic dreamer than a narcissistic dreamer.

Honestly, if I didn't have something like I mentioned keeping me in line, I have a tendency to veer to the narcissistic side. Fortunately, I have been placed in a situation where I am constantly reminded of my glaring faults and limitations. It keeps me in check. That said, I also have a tendency to be an idealist. That was somewhat perceptive of you to notice that.

I'm an engineer and I have no clue what either one of those are!!

LMAO!

You are just a cute binbo, so shut up! I so love that pic Karren!

Vive el ingeniero! I like to keep it simple. I am Popeye the Sailor Man, I am what I am! We are all broad brushed transgenders in my definition and that sounds good to me. Now, I love myself, is that narcissistic?

I think there is a degree of narcissism in everyone and as I said before, that's not necessarily a bad thing. There's nothing wrong with loving yourself. The problem is that people get confused about who they really are and they end up nurturing things that they think are related to their self interest, that actually have nothing to do with their self interest and in some instances run contrary to their self interest.

[Nikki A.]

Neither and both. Narcisist dreamer in that I hope that somday I will be able to trully be me. A Pragmatist who knows that I need to stay in control so that I can earn a living so that at times I can be Nikki. It sometimes is a fine line and some times I think that the dreamer is winning.

[Mrs Roads]

I'd say I'm a bit of both. In boy mode, I tend to be a pragmatist, but in gal mode, I completely immerse myself into my female persona 100%, thus, the dreamer in me (at least that's the way I look at it) - I sort of induce myself into a state of self-hypnosis (via meditation) so as to truly feel that I am woman

[SweetIonis]

I'd say I'm a bit of both. In boy mode, I tend to be a pragmatist, but in gal mode, I completely immerse myself into my female persona 100%, thus, the dreamer in me (at least that's the way I look at it) - I sort of induce myself into a state of self-hypnosis (via meditation) so as to truly feel that I am woman

HAHA! That's what I'm talkin bout! Damn, I knew somebody could speak my language!

[SweetIonis]

The outright answer is 'No!', because you cannot ever generalise & paint anyone with such a broad brush!

It's possible to use such a broad brush if we recognize that there is a degree of narcissism in everyone. And I would say that a person who engages in crossdressing is someone who at the very least is self absorbed to the point where they feel that their desires to do so outweigh the norms that society has put in place, justly or unjustly, for dressing with regards to sex. The mentality is that my desires are more important than the norms, so I will ignore the norms. Now I'm not necessarily saying that's wrong, but what I am saying is that there is a certain degree of narcissism involved in that decision, and as such it's not such a far fetched notion to say that IN GENERAL, those who, like myself, engage in the practice of crossdressing are narcissistic.

[Kate Simmons]

What I think my friend is that it really depends on who you are as a person.

[Melody Moore]

And I would say that a person who engages in crossdressing is someone who at the very
least is self absorbed to the point where they feel that their desires to do so outweigh the
norms that society has put in place, justly or unjustly, for dressing with regards to sex.

But who here is qualified to defined the 'norms of society'? What you might consider abnormal
to others it is fairly normal. And in some cultures being transgendered is considered normal &
there are many countries around the world that are shaking off the shackles that were put on
them by British & European Christian missionaries when they colonised the world. And don't ever
forget you are on an international forum. How things might be in your country, doesn't reflect life
or the attitudes, beliefs or ideology of another.

So I believe there is nothing 'self-absorbing' about being transgendered. I consider being transgendered
to be very normal & there is nothing self-absorbing about being your true self - its called being honest.

My belief is that you only feel like a narcissistic when you are cross-dressing because you still believe it is wrong!

In my world at at least I have removed the constraints that me
back & there is nothing at al selfish about refusing to keep living a lie.

The bottom line is how you perceive your position in the community is not how other people view theirs.
You don't speak for me and after the feedback here, it appears that you certainly don't speak for anyone
else - like I said you cannot generalise & paint with such a broad brush - you too have a LOT to learn

[noeleena]

Hi,

I'm not a dreamer. i do thing s make things if i need some thing i'll make it .wood or steel, clothes i'll design & make them .& a fixer.

So i'm a do'er builder & joiner & cab;e i wear the pinny.

A pragmatist . big word had to look it up.

Ancient Greek= one who act's in a parctical way or straight forward maner,,

Allmost for got as a woman as well.

...noeleena...

[SweetIonis]

But who here is qualified to defined the 'norms of society'? What you might consider abnormal
to others it is fairly normal.
And in some cultures being transgendered is considered normal &
there are many countries around the world that are shaking off the shackles that were put on
them by British & European Christian missionaries when they colonised the world. And don't ever
forget you are on an international forum. How things might be in your country, doesn't reflect life
or the attitudes, beliefs or ideology of another. So I believe there is nothing 'self-absorbing' about being transgendered. I consider being transgendered
to be very normal & there is nothing self-absorbing about being your true self - its called being honest.

It has nothing to do with what actually is normal or abnormal. It has nothing to do with who is qualified or unqualified, it has to do with what a society has established as an EXPECTED set of behavior, therefore I used the words JUSTLY OR UNJUSTLY. The fact that we use the word CROSSDRESSING at all is a testimony to the FACT that engaging in such behavior is outside of the norms that THIS SOCIETY has set.

And again, I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm saying that there is a certain amount of narcissism that is manifest by making the decision to engage in that behavior.

My belief is that you only feel like a narcissistic when you are cross-dressing because you still believe it is wrong!

And that is simply your belief and you are entitled to that opinion. But you are quite wrong. Now what I do believe is that you can do certain things while cross dressed that are wrong, but those are things you could do without being cross dressed.

In my world at at least I have removed the constraints that me back & there is nothing at al selfish about refusing to keep living a lie.
You don't speak for me and after the feedback here, it appears that you certainly don't speak for anyone
else - like I said you cannot generalise & paint with such a broad brush - you too have a LOT to learn

I would say that the reference to "in my world" and the patronizing condescension in the remainder are evidence of just the type of narcissism I am talking about.

[StarrOfDelite]

Narcissism is such a broad term that I'm not sure which concept you are using in your question. This is just a short article on Wikipedia, but rest assured that behind this article is a section in the library which contains enough books on the subject to fill the average suburban garage to overflowing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism

I like Wiki's paraphrasing of Freud's On Narcissism, "primary narcissism is a natural and necesssary investment of one's sexual energy in oneself, a sexual version of ordinary self-interest, whereas secondary narcissism is a defensive reaction of withdrawing one's sexual interest from other people and focusing it exclusively on oneself." I think that might be a fairly accurate description of the motives of a lot of CD's (including myself). Once we get into the personality disorder spectrum, I think that popular American culture tends to indulge too much in curbstone diagnoses, or self-diagnoses, of such things.

[SweetIonis]

Narcissism is such a broad term that I'm not sure which concept you are using in your question. This is just a short article on Wikipedia, but rest assured that behind this article is a section in the library which contains enough books on the subject to fill the average suburban garage to overflowing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism

I like Wiki's paraphrasing of Freud's On Narcissism, "primary narcissism is a natural and necesssary investment of one's sexual energy in oneself, a sexual version of ordinary self-interest, whereas secondary narcissism is a defensive reaction of withdrawing one's sexual interest from other people and focusing it exclusively on oneself." I think that might be a fairly accurate description of the motives of a lot of CD's (including myself). Once we get into the personality disorder spectrum, I think that popular American culture tends to indulge too much in curbstone diagnoses, or self-diagnoses, of such things.

That was a super excellent post. Thanks for sharing that!

Honestly I really had not thought about it in exactly those terms, but I think it's so amazing that the other day when I started this thread, I just intuitively felt that somehow cross dressing and narcissism where somewhat related. I find it totally enlightening and inspiring to see that it has been conceptualized in this way. And I am like you Starr, that is a fairly accurate description of my state of mind while cross dresssing!

Again thank you so much for sharing that!

[StarrOfDelite]

That was a super excellent post. Thanks for sharing that!

Honestly I really had not thought about it in exactly those terms, but I think it's so amazing that the other day when I started this thread, I just intuitively felt that somehow cross dressing and narcissism where somewhat related. I find it totally enlightening and inspiring to see that it has been conceptualized in this way. And I am like you Starr, that is a fairly accurate description of my state of mind while cross dresssing!

Again thank you so much for sharing that!

You're welcome. Sigmund Freud was a very smart, insightful person. The interesting thing is that narcissism cuts across the entire sexual spectrum. I assume from some of the references in your original post that you are involved in a significant heterosexual relationship with a G-Girl, and I am under the Gay/Bi umbrella somewhere.

As Alice Novick has accurately observed, people like me (and her) aren't now and probably never were "normal straight men," but I was just as narcissistic when I was operating under the impression that I was one. And, I'm pretty damn sure that I recognized the same focused narcissism in many of the males with whom I shared football training camps, Marine boot camp, fraternity bull sessions, et cetera. I knew men who would consider it a lost weekend if they didn't have sex with a different girl on Friday and Saturday nights, and even at that time it was easy to understand that the focus of their sexuality was on themselves and not the women, in other words Naricissistic.

Unfortunately, I think I've had a few dates with guys like that myself. :-(

[SweetIonis]

You're welcome. Sigmund Freud was a very smart, insightful person. The interesting thing is that narcissism cuts across the entire sexual spectrum. I assume from some of the references in your original post that you are involved in a significant heterosexual relationship with a G-Girl, and I am under the Gay/Bi umbrella somewhere.

As Alice Novick has accurately observed, people like me (and her) aren't now and probably never were "normal straight men," but I was just as narcissistic when I was operating under the impression that I was one. And, I'm pretty damn sure that I recognized the same focused narcissism in many of the males with whom I shared football training camps, Marine boot camp, fraternity bull sessions, et cetera. I knew men who would consider it a lost weekend if they didn't have sex with a different girl on Friday and Saturday nights, and even at that time it was easy to understand that the focus of their sexuality was on themselves and not the women, in other words Naricissistic.

Unfortunately, I think I've had a few dates with guys like that myself. :-(

The first time I encountered Freud was my freshman year of college in a philosophy class. I was shocked! I had never heard such things in my life! At that time I considered much of it to be total BS. Honestly I still consider SOME of it to be BS, but that said, upon deeper reflection, many of the things that I thought were crap turned out to have quite a bit of truth to them. That description of narcissism that you referred to is actually brilliant.

Yes I'm in a relationship with a GG. She's real sweet and very feminine. For quite sometime I have felt that at least part of the reason that I crossdress is because I like girls so much. Really I believe I like them so much that sometimes I want to be one or at least experience to some degree the things that I see in them that I like. It's closely related to that concept you posted of investing sexual energy in oneself. Instead of the sexual energy being directed outward towards a girl, the energy is directed inwards towards oneself. I'm telling you it's really an amazing concept because I was trying to post something to support my theory of how a CD could transform into a TS. One of the things that I spent a lot of time thinking about was how someone who is attracted to girls could end up having desires where they wanted to be the object of a man's sexual desire. What I came up with was a similar concept, that the desire directed towards girls actually becomes redirected towards themselves. And that appears to me just the type of thing that is being talked about in that definition. And honestly, I had never seen that definition until you just posted it, so you just don't know how much I appreciate that.