I was thinking the same thing. I have spent a lot of time living and working in latin america, and while there whenever I would treat women with respect, ask for and listen to opinions and in general just be a decent bloke those women would act like I was from the planet of perfect men. Seriously, I got treated like a rock star.Originally Posted by Debglam
So, as bad as it can be here, remember - it could be worse.
I've gone to find myself. If I should return before I get back keep me here to wait for me so I don't go back out and miss myself when I return.
OMG!
Trampy party of one, your table's ready!
:-)
Yeah I know, right? lolAren't we missing the headline of the story? How happy your boyfriend was about this same situation?
We lose the many years of learning girls and women go through to take advantage of this behaviour..
Although not all men are like this, The more I integrate, the more I see this behavior
What I am also learning is that It's not very difficult at all for a woman to get just about anything she wants from most men..
Some women refuse to play the game...these women are generally known as bitches..hehe...and lots of women that stand up to guys intimidate them and get what they want that way...
Sorry add one please I picked the guy from the gas station up!
My motto is... let them be in charge until it's time to not let them be in charge. Make it seem like it was their idea..... as long as i get my way.. they can take the credit.
Kelly, I have to agree with you completely. For a man it's all about the ego of the little head. As long as he does what I want him to do he can take credit for it and I might even thank him for being so thoughtful.My motto is... let them be in charge until it's time to not let them be in charge. Make it seem like it was their idea..... as long as i get my way.. they can take the credit.
"Willfully turning aside from the truth is treason to one's self." - Wizard's Tenth Rule:
"Life is the future, not the past." - Wizard's Seventh Rule
"Deserve victory." - Wizard's Eighth Rule
"Be justified in your convictions. Be completely committed. Earn what you want and need rather than waiting for others to give you what you desire."
There is just one life for each of us: our own - Words from a fortune cookie
Do or Do Not. There is no try - Yoda
I have been around weapons my entire life and am qualified as an expert marksman in many weapon systems. I also teach other women how to protect themselves with a hand gun and help them get their Concealed Weapons Permit. But you talk about a male dominated activity and they HATE that I can out shoot them and know more about weapons than they will ever know. Being a woman is so much fun in a male dominated activity (society).
Just call Me: "W - O - M - A - N"
As King said: "I'm free at last, I'm free at last.
Thank God Almighty I'm free at last!"
I had some guy at the doctors office try to help me with my programing homework once without me asking for help. He knew nothing about programming or computers. Either he was trying ot impress me or thought he could figure it out.
I have found if you let them feel like they know everything you can get what you want sometimes. I am definitely enjoying female privilege now. I was once late for a solid deadline in my philosophy class so I wore a nice boob shirt and did my makeup nice and got my professor to give me a 2 day extension with no penalty. Never would have happened if I was a guy.
I think that maybe since I dress kinda punky that people dont give me much crap, especially when people find out I am in the mechanical engineering field. Iv'e noticed that I do say that to people a bit and they do tend to treat me better.
"Be excellent to each other" (Wyld Stallyons)
"Marches alone cant bring integration, if human respect is disintegrating" (Barry McGyuire)
You mean women who've learned how to play act like 'the helpless one' in order to get what they want from guys? I mean it when I acknowledge that I may be odd or different, but this is not behavior that I respect in a woman. It is not the way that I behave. It's dishonest. It's misrepresentation of the self.
Again, I'm not trying to be argumentative, but this has not been my experience at all. It may have been over a generation ago, but no more or at least, not in the world that I inhabit. I'll admit if a woman is young and beautiful she may be able to wrap one or two guys around her little finger if they want to get into her pants. But, this is not the case for the average woman.
Or, they get stonewalled, unless they are exceptionally strong and talented and again, this is not the average woman in an average situation.
Chivalry is dead. Long live chivalry!
Admittedly, I may be a little jaded. School of hard knocks, I guess.
Reine
Yeah. This happens. It has happened for generations, and while it is getting better it certainly hasn't gone away.
I don't mean to sound like a condescending bitch, but welcome to being a girl. THIS is what you signed up for.
Honestly, one of my biggest struggles early on (It is still early on, but earlier on?) for me was remembering to not interact with men in the same ways I always have in the past. Those scripts are familiar and learning new ones is hard. But we have a new place in society now. If we want to fit in, we need to learn to interact with men, not as men, but as women - and a significant part of that is stroking men's egos and tolerating their condescending bullshit. We have gone from being able to forcefully impose our will on the guys around us and demand the respect we were due as men, to having to doing this weird little dance where we seduce men into wanting to help us.
Women's methods of getting what they want and need are much different from those employed by men. As men we were able to demand and insist, and impose our will on others. That is what male privilege really is - the right to demand to have your needs met. As women, we do not have that ability - and so we have to employ different methods to have our needs met. We have to do the little dance where we ask permission, or where we let men know what we would like, and then convince them that they want to give it to us.
You cant talk to the Gomer at Autozone like you know more than he does - it is insulting. You have to ask for his help. When he ignores you, you don't get to be irritated. You have to double down on your attempts at making him want to help you. Bat your eyelashes, smile, ask incredibly stupid questions, tell him how helpful he is, and how you are just SURE that if you have any problems that he will be able to help you. If he is still talking to your boyfriend, shrug your shoulders and keep asking questions - and just listen to the answers he is giving your boyfriend.
Yeah - he is being incredibly rude. Guys are rude to women ALL the time. Get used to it. Why do you think women hate being around men?
You may not like this - you probably do not - I am not particularly fond of it myself, but it is how things are. You can get angry and decry it as sexist, misogynistic BS - OR you can learn to play the game. Which one do you think is going to get you the information you need to fix your truck?
It isn't about getting into anyone's pants - it is about making a guy feel good about himself when he gives you what you want from him. Certainly a young beautiful girl can use a bit of sexual enticement, but there isn't a guy in the world who thinks he is REALLY going to get a BJ from Miss. Pretty-young-thing in exchange for help with her whatever-it-is problem. It is about playing the gender game that is still VERY alive and well in the world. And I promise that if I can do it (and I do - and I am getting better all the time) the average woman - can do it MUCH easier.
Last edited by Hope; 08-26-2011 at 01:37 AM.
"I don't mind living in a man's world, as long as I can be a woman in it." — Marilyn Monroe
Hope... I have to agree with this for the most part. Well said
Kel
Ahhhh, perpetuation of sterotypes....isn't it grand.
Honestly some of what I have read hear just makes me hang my head in disgust.
Today at my computer shop a woman came in to pick up her computer. The thing is one of the lightest desktops to be built...she also had more muscle than me. Could she carry her machine to the car? Not when there were two men in the shop that could do it for her.
I despise that mentality. I don't like the notion that women must be served by men. Chivalry was a load of sexist nonsense started in the medieval days, a read up on the history of it may really open your eyes to what it was really about.
There are only a few times in life a woman is "helpless". That includes when she is very pregnant, and very old and frail. Other times women are capable of as much as men (average men, not muscle bound beefcakes).
When women play along with Chivalry in my personal opinion they help women not one iota.
"I am not altogether on anyone's side as no one is all together on my side"
Tree beard. Lord of the Rings, The Two Towers.
Easy for you to say... try living and working as a woman 24/7 365 and you will see the disparity that exits. Physical strength is is not even in the ball park of which we are speaking. And try and convince Mr employer and Mr macho that we are up to the task.. we may well be, but don't often get the benefit of the doubt. saying we are equal and treating us as equal are quite different. I actually find your thinking.... quite male. "helpless" is a man's word.. A lot of men look at us in that light, and you can't always fight city hall, so in order to try and eek out our place.. sometimes we just have to go with the flow. And then some man is going to turn it around and blame us. .. priceless!
Kel
Last edited by kellycan27; 08-26-2011 at 04:14 AM.
Pythos, it disgusts me as well, however I do fully agree with Hope & Kelly here. There are many men out
there who assume women are really useless - women cannot make good decisions & look after themselves.
so they treat us very badly in avain effort where they believe that they can do better - when they can't!
Women really get no choice about this, and if you say something, you are likely to hurt a guy's very fragile
ego. I believe that women are stronger really because they have had thousands of years to get use to this.
This is why I didn't say anything to the mechanic when he started to get agitated because I questioned
him about why he was insisting on servicing my car before fixing other more important mechanical problems.
Knowing the typical male psyche like I do after growing up as one has taught me that a guy like this one,
believes that women are simply not meant to know about such things like motor-mechanics.
Those familiar scripts we learn as males that Hope just mentioned are hard to let go of in favour
of learning new ones. I was talking about this with a girlfriend recently & she is a psychiatrist &
she just said that I had to learn to milk it for what I could instead if I was going to be a woman
because this is what women do. I know that might sound bad, but that is what guys expect.
How many men do you hear whining about being taken for a ride by women? I hear lots of them
complaining that have the view that we are nothing but b!tches. While some women are real b!tches
who do exploit males, I don't believe they are all b!tches, but some men cannot harness any other
concept about women. Especially those that have been before the divorce courts & believe that
the law favours the female very unfairly.
But I wonder who the b!tches were that passed these laws when our own governments are predominately male
dominated domains? where women have been fighting for years to get their foot in the door just to have a voice.
It really wasn't that long ago when women were not even allowed to vote. So this is another
fine example of 'male privilege' where the men are starting to pay a huge price for that privilege.
My landlord is a very chauvinistic male who fears women ever getting close to him in any sort of
long term relationship because he fears it will entitle them to a share of his property. He even made
the comment to me one day where he believed that all women should be drowned in a bucket of
water at birth - I cannot express with words how angry it made me feel for him to say that, but I
came very close to wanting to punch his lights out, but walked away shaking my head in disgust
at what he instead.
But my landlord is a friend I have known for over 6 years, so when I settled down, I asked him later
on why he had the attitude he has with women. He said he doesn't know any other way to treat
women - he used the term "Treat em mean to keep em keen". At first I couldn't see why he was like
this, but it become more apparent later on. What I learnt here led me to now believe that this is just
this is part of the social conditioning that he & other males go through when they are growing up.
They have learnt this bad behaviour through the examples set by other male peers & their role models.
But at the same time, I can see he tries hard to respect women, but he finds it very difficult to do this.
This has always been one concept I have never been able to get my head around & made me realise
that I was not your 'typical male' who was affected by the pressures put on us to be a "Man's man".
There is another elderly lady who comes here to do my friend's washing & ironing each week because "that
is women's work" according to my friend who told me this himself. So men have taken it upon themselves
to try & put women in their place - sadly there are those out there that believe that all women should be
"barefoot, pregnant & tied to the kitchen sink".
One day I was having a cuppa with this lady who comes to do his washing & ironing & I mentioned
to her quietly how disappointed I was at times in my friend with some of the things he said to me...
But she told me "if I thought he was was bad, then I should meet his father because he was worse".
This lady told me that she use to date his father & this is where my friend gets his chauvinism from.
In the end she couldn't handle his father's very rude bad behaviour anymore & broke it off. So it is no
wonder why my friend is still single & he has this chauvinistic streak about him. But the truth is if you
are going to treat anyone mean in the first place without giving someone the benefit of doubt, then
what can you really expect here Pythos? Just because we might not be as strong as men, that does
not give them any right to be so disrespectful towards us.
It's a catch 22 really, because guys expect to be used by women, so they treat them badly, so
in response to that there are some women out there that do treat males badly as sad as that is.
Personally I am out to prove to males like my friend that such stereotyping of women is wrong.
So if a guy acts like a dick to me, I won't lower myself to his standards & argue back at him now,
I will just smile nicely & maybe even play the game, but then again I might just get up & walk away.
Please take no offence to this Pythos, but Kelly nailed it when she said that your way of thinking is "quite male".
Last edited by Melody Moore; 08-26-2011 at 05:32 AM.
Well said Kelly.
Try being talked to like you're a ding dong by your boyfriend or by guys who knew you as a male before! Its like an automatic male response to femininity. All people, male and female, use what they can to make this world work for them, what's wrong with that? I agree with Reine partially in that men are going to respond more to "miss pretty young thing" than say "overweight frumpy rockin the sweats 30 something mom" but again like Hope said it's not because some half wit auto parts store clerk actually thinks he's going to get in to Kelly's, I mean "miss pretty young thing's" panties
Male privilege exists and sexism is alive and well, but it's hardly insurmountable. As you all know, I work in the construction industry and I manage people who manage other people. There's no physical disadvantage at my level, and certainly no reason to be masculine but you would never know that by hanging around the office. Men have a certain way of doing things and asserting themselves and that's just the way it is. I'm not openly trans at work (I still dress like a man) but I am totally out as gay/queer/transgender/etc and outside of being called princess and bitch (good naturedly) by most of the alpha types, I don't get treated any differently and I think it's because I've always approached relationships and leadership from a very feminine perspective. I was never going to out-macho those guys as I came up through the ranks, so I found another way. The lesson is, don't engage men or the patriarchy on their terms. Find your own way and a strong clever gal can compete quite equally.
Also, I had lunch with one of my subcontractors yesterday. She is the owner of a successful little video/integration company and she told me that she hopes she's a woman again in her next life too. She looked right at me, winked and said she loves everything about being a woman and she knows I'm going to be very happy. I gave her a hug and said thanks, but that sentiment is not allowed in the TS community and I told her she probably wasn't a real woman.
Ok I'm joking, I just gave her a hug, but I can't help but think about this place sometimes and laugh at the silliness.
It seems my post about the woman and her computer was missunderstood.
THE WOMAN, insisted that one of the males of the shop (who were busy working on other customer's machines) carry the machine out to her car. SHE stated her being a woman as being why. Something I forgot to mention is that SHE is the one that brought the machine in (this model by the way is one of the lightest desktop models around).
I saw what she did was the "oh, I am a woman, and cannot carry this computer, I need men to do that". This was not myself and my co-worker thinking she needed help, to be honest we had more pressing matters to do.
Why did she not carry her own machine out, when she is the one that brought it in? Because she saw two males in the office working, so why should she when she is a woman. At least that is how I took it.
I find this sort of thinking and mentality disgusting. A few thousand steps backwards.I had to learn to milk it for what I could instead if I was going to be a woman
because this is what women do
Last edited by Pythos; 08-26-2011 at 11:31 AM.
"I am not altogether on anyone's side as no one is all together on my side"
Tree beard. Lord of the Rings, The Two Towers.
Pythos, in the USA it is customary to tip right? whereas here in Australia it is not.
Americans are use to tipping each other & really expect it in the service industries
and they will get upset if you don't tip true? What I am getting at here it all boils
down to what people are use to. I know there is a bit of an age difference between
you and I but over the years things have changed quite dramatically in the customer
service industry & in how much people do for each other. Maybe this was something
she was use to. When I owned my computer store I use to always carry computers &
monitors out to all my customer's cars. Because back then we didn't have the luxury
of lightweight PCs & monitors - and especially carrying heavy 15" & 17"monitors was
something that I didn't mind doing - it was just an extension of the service & support
that I provided to my clients - I did the same thing for guys by the way.
The way I see it nowadays people in business are getting lazy nowadays in return for lower
profits. This is especially true with how we fill up our cars now. Years ago you would pull up
in the driveway and wouldn't even have to get out of your car because there was an attendant
there that would take care of business for you. Not only would they fill your car up, they would
clean the windshield & check your motor-oil, brake fluid, power steering, automatic transmission
& engine coolant levels & tyre pressures. But then we started to get self-service driveways where
everyone served themselves then pay & for their fuel through a cashier once they were finished.
I remember how guys handled serving themselves without too many issues, but the women were
lost because they never had to do anything like this before. And to expect them to check things
under the hood themselves was definitely asking too much, especially if they are clean & dressed
on on their way to work in the office. As a result of this many women have blown their cars up.
What you have just highlighted here is that customer service is a dying art & if you really had an
issue about extending a little of that to her, then the chances are she won't ever come back to
your store if she knows of another place where they are willing to go that extra mile. In this day
& age of low profits & poor customer service, I was shocked to find a drive way that still meets
& greets customers the old fashioned way & will fill up your car & check things under the hood for
you. As a result of this type of excellent customer service, I don't buy my fuel anywhere else now.
So what this shows here is that sometimes chivalry can go a long way, without appearing so sexist.
You never mentioned how old this woman was by the way, maybe she is an older woman who expects this.
Last edited by Melody Moore; 08-26-2011 at 12:12 PM.
Well hell, if they are going to treat us like idiots, they can at least do our heavy lifting for us
exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!well hell, if they are going to treat us like idiots, they can at least do our heavy lifting for us
Oh and that too Bree, I was just being a bit more politeWell hell, if they are going to treat us like idiots, they can at least do our heavy lifting for us
I strongly disagree with this.
As a single woman who was never interested in the mechanics of cars, when I have an engine problem I ask candid questions to mechanics and I expect honest answers. I am not devoid of logic, and I keep asking the questions until I feel I have an accurate answer. To do anything less, to play the "poor 'lil 'ol me - batting eyelashes" card totally goes against my values. It is something I've seen other females engage in occasionally, and frankly the rest of us GGs just roll our eyes when we see this.
It is frustrating when some men are not willing to genuinely answer the questions because they doubt my ability to understand, although it is much better than it was 30 years ago and thankfully it doesn't happen all that often.
Another example: I was left to care for about 2 acres after the divorce, with limited resources to do it properly. At first I had a 25 lb gas powered weed-whacker, that no matter how hard I tried, I could not pull the chord strong enough for it to start. It was a temperamental machine and I have very poor upper body strength. I would take this weed-whacker to my neighbor and ask him to pull the chord for me. He would, and I would make sure to not stop until the job was all done.
Never once did I play the victim or the helpless card. My neighbor helped me out with an honest request, just as he would have had I been a man. There was absolutely no subterfuge. He never offered to weed-whack for me, nor would I have allowed him if he had. Taking care of my property is my responsibility, not his.
Eventually the weed-whacker wouldn't start, and neither did our very ancient Deere tractor. Fortunately I found a teenager who used to go to school with my son who has a start-up lawn business, with much better equipment than I do, and who together with his buddies does the whole yard in a fraction of the time and physical effort it took me, for a very reasonable price. I avail myself of their services every 2 weeks, at the same cost it would take me to keep my old equipment in good repair, since I would have to hire someone to fix the tractor and weed-whacker every time it breaks down.
Not in the world I live in. Guys are getting smarter and fewer women are willing to play the helpless role, especially the younger ones, the ones who grew up with moms who are much more independent than the average woman was 30 years ago.
Not saying that you can't approach a guy and acknowledge differences such as a lesser knowledge of mechanics, or having less physical strength and asking for his help, but this is a far cry from batting eyelashes, acting dumb, and pandering to his ego.
Last edited by ReineD; 08-26-2011 at 12:47 PM. Reason: Added two additional quotes.
Reine
This works both ways apparently. I had to ship some wheels/tires from my racecar yesterday. They were bundled together in pairs, so ~60lbs. There were three women in the back and no one in the store. They all made sure to avoid eye contact with me and not lift a finger. I had to lift one on the scale for them to wiegh, and then the women in gym shoes and her work clothes asked the girl in a dress and 5" wedges to move it over to the rollers after weighing! I couldn't help but think what a bitch! By this time a guy had come in and after looking helpless trying to move it off the scale he moved the wheels for me. :PWell hell, if they are going to treat us like idiots, they can at least do our heavy lifting for us
Now, I'm not actually capable, since I have a really bad back, and had help just getting them out of the car onto a cart. Of course I'm not going to brodacast that and make a thing out of it because that's just how I am, but there are genders and there always will be. It's biologically bred into us. Each carries it's own expectations by the other, so you can either get with it or live as trans/third gender and expect that no one will know how to treat you in any given situation.
My mom would have asked for the same. However, as Melody highlighted, she would seem capable but she comes from a time when customer service including more than a half-way enthused greeting at the door. But also her parents came from the early 1900's, and while it wasn't all being barefoot, pregnant, and house slaves for women (my grandmother was very active in church and the Ladies Auxiliary of the VFW, was a waitress at the local VFW building, and even purchased her own war bonds during WW2), there were things that men were expected to do for ladies. And such behaviors and expectations are passed down from one generation to the next. The world is a very different place than it was at the time of the Women's rights movement, but it will take more than a few decades to erase several millenia of social, psychological, and evolutionary conditioning.THE WOMAN, insisted that one of the males of the shop (who were busy working on other customer's machines) carry the machine out to her car. SHE stated her being a woman as being why. Something I forgot to mention is that SHE is the one that brought the machine in (this model by the way is one of the lightest desktop models around).
Gott weiß ich will kein Engel sein
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