Exactly!
Women have proved for over 60 years that they are very capable because
they also built aircraft & machinery while the men were off fighting the war.
And the woman Pythos described carried the computer into the store,so she proved that she was
very capable. However she did expect some service to take it back to her car which isn't expecting
a lot in a customer service related industry after she probably forked out money to have it fixed.
Reine
I will agree with you.. In the example I gave.. it was an easy fix. Had the problem been a harder issue to deal with, I would have certainly have paid to have it fixed. In this case we flirted with the guys, they flirted with us, and I don't think there was any expectation that it was anything more than that. In the end.. if was a fun experience for everyone, the car got fixed, and the parts store gained new customers.. I have since recommended it to other people and have been back there myself. I also agree that there aren't too many men who would fall for the batting of the eyes if it was going to cost them money lol.... either in labor, goods or time. In my accounting business.. I don't work for free, but I will give free advice or do something easy...gratis. It doesn't cost me anything, and helps promote good customer relations. I don't have a problem using my womanly wiles to my advantage, but I would draw the line at using them to take "unfair" advantage.... like getting someone to mow a huge section of grass..... without financial compensation. That would just be wrong. A few months ago I had to pick up 26 boxes of laminate flooring at Home Depot. The guy in the flooring department was ever so helpful.. and the entire time he was looking at me like I was on the menu. He loaded the flooring on my cart, pushed it to the register,waited until I paid for it and loaded it in my car. I am sure i could have just thanked him and been on my way. I did thank him, and tipped him $20.00 for his trouble.
Last edited by kellycan27; 08-26-2011 at 02:57 PM.
Flirting with someone when you both have fun with it is OK, Kel.
I was thinking about this a bit, and I constructed a reverse scenario. If I had a male neighbor who was recently divorced or widowed, and who confessed to me he had no clue how to survive in the kitchen, I would help him out. I'd likely make extra when making a big batch of beef stew now and then, and I would certainly invite him to call me if he needed to know anything specific about cooking. I'd likely give him a few recipes.
I'm saying this to show that people can ask for help without having to resort to wiles, this works both ways, and there are decent men and women who will recognize a need and be willing to help.
Reine
No argument there! I am sure most people would see it in the same manner. Out in the world of strangers I do believe that there is a cat and mouse game that plays out every single day... men and women play it... the difference being in how you play it. In an earlier post I mentioned the disparity between men and women. it's not something that I dwell on.. it is what it is. I wasn't suggesting that we use our advantage as a type of revenge, more so as a perk.Originally Posted by ReineD
Flirting with someone when you both have fun with it is OK, Kel.
I was thinking about this a bit, and I constructed a reverse scenario. If I had a male neighbor who was recently divorced or widowed, and who confessed to me he had no clue how to survive in the kitchen, I would help him out. I'd likely make extra when making a big batch of beef stew now and then, and I would certainly invite him to call me if he needed to know anything specific about cooking. I'd likely give him a few recipes.
I'm saying this to show that people can ask for help without having to resort to wiles, this works both ways, and there are decent men and women who will recognize a need and be willing to help.
I like men for the most part, and I like the interaction. I enjoy the little cat and mouse game. I understand it and I think most men understand it too. I also believe that there are some genuinely nice people out there, and once you recognize this.. you act accordingly.
Last edited by kellycan27; 08-26-2011 at 03:42 PM.
Agreed.Well hell, if they are going to treat us like idiots, they can at least do our heavy lifting for us
I think that you have VERY ably demonstrated that the issue isn't your inability to make this happen, but rather it is your unwillingness to play the game. That is cool, everyone should conduct her business in the way she sees fit. Everyone. Even me. But to deny that the game exists is a bit disingenuous - particularly from someone fond of recalling "how it was 30 years ago."Not in the world I live in. Guys are getting smarter and fewer women are willing to play the helpless role, especially the younger ones, the ones who grew up with moms who are much more independent than the average woman was 30 years ago.
"I don't mind living in a man's world, as long as I can be a woman in it." — Marilyn Monroe
I'm not being disingenuous, Hope.
It's true that I only live in my own skin and no one else's, but I am fortunate to have always had many close, female friends, no matter where I lived. The women I am close to, the ones I know intimately, do not behave in the vacuous way you describe. It is also not a behavior that I have commonly observed in my day to day life, although admittedly there are a few women who do act that way.
There's a difference between being a real woman, and the stereotypical, ditsy female who behaves like this:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Edit - This is an hour later, and there is a thought I'd like to share with everyone:
First, second, and third wave feminism has helped women to come into their own in the last century and it has helped them to no longer see themselves as being at the mercy of men. It is the belief in feminist principles, namely gender equality, that also helps the supportive wives of crossdressers to accept their husbands' feminine expressions, and also the supportive wives of transsexuals to accept their (former) husbands' rejection of maleness.
I find it ironic that crossdressers and transsexuals should want to reject the advances made by the women they wish to emulate and become, by adopting a stereotypical behavioral system that is fast going the way of the dinosaur.
A woman can be feminine, intelligent, and free of artifice all at the same time. And it is my observation that today's men increasingly appreciate the new, confidant woman.
So yes, I do become annoyed when I meet a man who does not respect that I am his equal, except perhaps in physical strength and the differences in the things that all individuals become knowledgable about throughout the course of their lives. Being equal and being treated with respect doesn't mean there aren't gendered differences between us. He is still a man, and I am still a woman.
Gender equality does not mean gender sameness and there is no need to adopt a disingenuous manner of behaving, simply to fit into the world of womanhood.
Last edited by ReineD; 08-26-2011 at 05:06 PM. Reason: See edit note.
Reine
I know that feeling!
I was told that I was "Way out there In left field", but I don't even know where that is.
Jess
Sorry, no.
I kinda get the feeling that you all think I and my coworker are lazy.
I am an equalist, and I do view women as equals. We do not carry machines out for the male clientele, so why is it we are required to do so for female clientele? (for the elderly, or weak, we will help, no matter the gender).
Sexism is sexism, is sexism. There is no justification for it, either way.
I could not have said this any better.I find it ironic that crossdressers and transsexuals should want to reject the advances made by the women they wish to emulate and become, by adopting a stereotypical behavioral system that is fast going the way of the dinosaur.
"I am not altogether on anyone's side as no one is all together on my side"
Tree beard. Lord of the Rings, The Two Towers.
I couldn't agree more. IMHO there is nothing sexier than an intelligent, capable, self-confident woman!
There are segments of the radical feminist movement that are very anti-trans but I think that in general feminists and the trans community are a natural alliance that could accomplish a lot for each other.
I don't agree with the radical feminists who are anti-trans. I didn't much agree with second wave feminism either, although they did serve their purpose, we did need something radical at the time to pull us out of the 50s. I'm thankful for the third wave. Now we have choices. Now it's OK to be a woman and have gender equality too.
Reine
While you don't personally agree with this, the statement that Deb just made here has some truth to it.
However those barriers are slowly coming down in more modern times with better education of society.
I had an issue once with a woman online once who proved that there are women like this still left in the
world - but this should be left for another discussion on this topic if you feel the need for further clarity.
Last edited by Melody Moore; 08-26-2011 at 10:59 PM.
Oh no, Melody, I know they exist. I meant that I disagree with their views.
Reine
Ok Reine, I gotcha
It is nice to know that the local gals here accept me in the lesbian community as well which shows that things have
changed in these circles as well. I am heading out this evening to a ladies only function & am really looking forward
to it. But I also see a another really huge benefit in being so close to another large group of women. And I think what
this topic is also showing us is that it is important to have a connection with other females like this. My experiences
& interactions with other women on a regular basis is also teaching me to deal with situations, such as dealing with
other males & other situations I might encounter without reverting back to the male ways of dealing with things.
So I encourage some of the girls here to get involved with some women's groups, even if it isn't your local lesbian group.
...just wanted to remind us, it happens to other groups too!
My daughter is a bit shy, so I'm giving her every chance she can get to interact with people... It drives me nuts, I put her first when approaching a staff...and: 1. at the kids library the librarian looks right over her at me...I just stood there and pointed to the kid! ...daughter didn't talk though so after 5 trys I had to speak for her! 2. At the resturant, I let her tell the door person, hello and how many?... they almost always look right at me, not my wife or daughter!
And...for the auto shops! My wife always gets screwed...sometimes they try to do me in too. but I quietly listen until they are done and shoot down all their stupid arguments...or I let them list 100 things I need to do then I say, well today I'm not spending that much so I'll do this and that...only had an issue once where they refused to do anywork because they actually told me they would not make a profit! ...the main thing is....never walk in to a garage and say 'my car has something wrong can you fix it'....you need to go there and say 'I want my break pads changed'. ...Even if you don't do the work you should know what needs to be done.
..I find it facinating though how the subtle language and interactions change with people you know when you are dressed enfem.
Chickie
No judgement there at all!I'm not being disingenuous, Hope.
It's true that I only live in my own skin and no one else's, but I am fortunate to have always had many close, female friends, no matter where I lived. The women I am close to, the ones I know intimately, do not behave in the vacuous way you describe. It is also not a behavior that I have commonly observed in my day to day life, although admittedly there are a few women who do act that way.
There's a difference between being a real woman, and the stereotypical, ditsy female who behaves like this:
I'm not being vacuous or ditzy or somehow not a real woman - but thanks for the implication - it always helps to be reminded of the perception even among our "supporters."
What I am talking about is a way of interacting in the world that is much more gentile, that is, frankly much more positive, and significantly more vulnerable. The vulnerability is not my first choice - but I don't get to choose - and perhaps the vulnerability is the root of the rest of this? I like the positivity... I lacked it a lot as a guy. The gentleness - well that is a work in progress.
I don't know if you are intentionally denying the differences in the way that men and women interact with the world, or if you honestly don't see them. You may simply not see it, having always interacted with the world in the same way. But for those of us who have lived on both sides it is very plain, and I assure you VERY real.
I can walk through the world, presenting as a woman, and behaving as a guy - demanding, strident, gruff - and I will be perceived as a bitch. I know - I have done it. I don't like it. Or I can behave in a much more femme manner - which after a little familiarization (I still don't know most of the rules I am afraid) feels very authentic to me - and be perceived as one of the girls. That is my preference. That doesn't make me stupid, or vacuous or any less a real woman than any other girl, even though you think it does.
Again, you can choose to play the game or not, but the game exists even if you don't want it to.
That is an interesting statement.Now it's OK to be a woman and have gender equality too.
"I don't mind living in a man's world, as long as I can be a woman in it." — Marilyn Monroe
Although I see the problem and am opposed to the idea in general, I can't wait for this kind of thing to happen to me. I'm tired of everyone's expectations and it would be an awesome way to know I am passing.
Bree, i have noticed this myself at my place of work. Whilst i haven't been presenting as female until now, my body language and general demeanor must have changed quite a bit as my boss doesn't really seem to take anything i say too seriously anymore. I don't think he realises but he definitely passes on asking my opinion when problem solving with some of the other senior staff members. It felt very demeaning when he did it the first time, but now i just think that things must be moving forward as he no longer seems to regard me as one of the guys........
Last edited by Louise C; 08-27-2011 at 04:30 PM.
Bree youre right men aaugh they think a woman doesnt know a thing about cars.
bree.. next time feel free to call me... id gladly give you real advice being i am in your same shoes AND own a repair shop......
ill PM u my ####
Louise C.
Your boss's thingie should fall off.
But since that is not going to happen, perhaps you and he should have a little chat.
"I am not altogether on anyone's side as no one is all together on my side"
Tree beard. Lord of the Rings, The Two Towers.
Generally, he's actually been really supportive to me since everything came out. Especially with some of our more established customers.
I don't think he means to be insensitive with me, i think it's me being a bit overly sensitive at times.
Especially on those bad days we all seem to get.
Hi.
I spos im one of those who it has made no difference & of cause my age backs that up & who i know & over many years. & it depends on you perspictive of who you are as a person . not wether for me any way wether im a male or female ,
& because people accept me i get respect for who i am not what i wear. im a tradesman in my own right as i am a woman in my own right. & thats how im accepted. by most people over 90 %. i can talk about issues. that relate to my friends as woman only or ...some that relate to men
Yet as a woman im treated as one 100 % why. maybe i know a thing or two. was trained , & learned as well.
I do jobs because our people know i can do them . yet i know other women are very able . tho some men think a bit differently because they wont to be top dog . its a attitude of they know more than some one else. & im not saying they dont its the attitude thats shown. even so not all men are like that.. its nice when they ask you about some thing & you can give a sensable answer in thier langage,
Tho when it comes to comuters i tell them i i know nothing because i dont .. yet they dont treat me as a dumb woman , i am thats another matter,he he ,,,,,you know what im saying . most of the men i interact with are very nice. & treat me accordingly.
& it goes both ways you treat others as you wont to be treated it does work.it does for me. & yes as a woman who is equal.
I do have to addmit some men are very nice. & are good friends ,
...noeleena...
Yes, there is a difference between both genders. I wrote earlier that a woman who approaches the problem without using any stereotypical feminine wiles will still know she is a woman and the mechanic will still know he is a man. Most of the differences are physical but as you say above, another difference may well be in a woman's more open, positive approach, which is an approach she uses universally, with both men and women.
Maybe the mechanic or other men would see her openness as a vulnerability, but I don't look at it that way at all. I just see it as an equalizing approach, which does not attempt to establish any sort of pecking order, but rather establishes respect as an equal with the expectation that she will receive answers that are not dismissive. You said earlier in post #36 that a man "demands and insists, and imposes his will on others." A woman will just assume the respect is there, and she will ask her questions nicely in a non-confrontational way, expecting nothing less than decent answers. But if she is dismissed, she will get impatient like I do.
A woman does not need to stroke a man's ego by batting her eyes lashes and acting dumb. Her positive, open approach is what works best since it is not disingenuous and this is what I meant with my statement about a woman retaining her femininity while still expecting to be seen as an equal.
You know ... there are men who have a great deal of personal magnetism and who use this same open, positive approach. These men are thought of as charming and they get positive results from both men and women in return.
Amber and Louise, although it is understanding that being treated this way is an affirmation of your femininity in the beginning of your transition, after a while believe me this sort of dismissive bias gets old, no matter what side of the fence you're on, whether or not you are transitioned or cis. Guys don't like to be dismissed by a woman who rolls her eyes and impatiently says "Men!" either.
Last edited by ReineD; 08-28-2011 at 01:59 PM.
Reine
I agree with what you say, this makes a lot of sense to me, ReineD.
However, i guess i am afraid to raise too much of an issue at the present time due to me not wanting to rock the boat. They have already cut me an awful lot of slack at work, and i guess for the sake of a few moments frustration, i'll just keep quiet. i'm not in a position financially or mentally to lose my job and start over again. I should be stronger at times, i know this, but right now, the most important thing to me is to keep working in order to keep the funds coming in to pay for my rent, meds, and srs. Sounds archaic, but what else can i do?
Last edited by Louise C; 08-28-2011 at 04:24 PM.
I don't blame you for not wanting to rock the boat right now either, plus it is an entirely different matter when you're dealing with a boss vs. a mechanic you hire to fix your car.
I'm just saying in a larger sense that TSs shouldn't settle for being treated like bimbos. I know this is a strong term, but any guy who won't look a woman in the eyes and give her honest answers is treating her just like that ... a bimbo.
I'm sure that in time you will discover how to assert yourself positively with your boss. It's a question of learning how to establish boundaries, and I'm still learning how, even in my 50s.
Reine
Posting Permissions
