Male Privilege

[Bree-asaurus]

I don't blame you for not wanting to rock the boat right now either, plus it is an entirely different matter when you're dealing with a boss vs. a mechanic you hire to fix your car.

I'm just saying in a larger sense that TSs shouldn't settle for being treated like bimbos. I know this is a strong term, but any guy who won't look a woman in the eyes and give her honest answers is treating her just like that ... a bimbo.

I'm sure that in time you will discover how to assert yourself positively with your boss. It's a question of learning how to establish boundaries, and I'm still learning how, even in my 50s.

Oh I won't settle for being a bimbo. I may be a bit ditzy, but I'm not gonna let anyone talk down to me, male or female.

[ReineD]

That's the spirit!!

But looking at the bigger picture, any woman who uses all these 'feminine wiles' in an attempt to manipulate men does perpetuate the "bimbo" culture, and this is why other GGs just roll our eyes when we see this.

[Bree-asaurus]

That's the spirit!!

But looking at the bigger picture, any woman who uses all these 'feminine wiles' in an attempt to manipulate men does perpetuate the "bimbo" culture, and this is why other GGs just roll our eyes when we see this.

I won't pull the whole bimbo act... but I do ask nicely for my bf to carry things for me :P "Pleeeease..."

[Michelle.M]

I don't think he means to be insensitive with me, i think it's me being a bit overly sensitive at times.

You might be right. And also, many men simply forget how to think with the big head when they are around women. Hence the new [lack of] awareness that he used to value your opinion.

[Eryn]

Just to explore another facet, sometimes it might be to one's advantage to have abilities that are not apparent to the people with whom you are dealing. For example, I understand a foreign language that is commonly spoken hereabouts. One can learn a lot from the "private" conversations that people have thinking that one cannot understand what they are saying.

The same thing applies to a woman who has to deal with a mechanic. If the mechanic is prone to lying to customers he might be less careful about what he says to a woman whom he assumes is clueless. If he starts talking about replacing the muffler bearings and piston return springs a knowledgeable woman has a lot of ammo to use when talking to his manager!

[Michelle.M]

Just to explore another facet, sometimes it might be to one's advantage to have abilities that are not apparent to the people with whom you are dealing. For example, I understand a foreign language that is commonly spoken hereabouts. One can learn a lot from the "private" conversations that people have thinking that one cannot understand what they are saying.

Good point! A friend of mine always likes to say that one of the best parts about being trans is that we get to keep our copies of the guys' playbook and we already know how the game unfolds.

[ReineD]

Good point! A friend of mine always like to say that one of the best parts about being trans is that we get to keep our copies of the guys' playbook and we already know how the game unfolds.

This is an advantage I would truly love to have, when it comes to car mechanics!

Just the thought of getting a book to learn about it bores me to tears.

[Melody Moore]

This is an advantage I would truly love to have, when it comes to car mechanics!

Just the thought of getting a book to learn about it bores me to tears.

That was one point I tried to make earlier, when I mentioned about how the mechanic I went to wanted to proceed.
I could clearly see the way that he was wanting to do things was going to cost me more money than I was needing
to spend. I just got off the phone with my girlfriend who's boyfriend is a mechanic and he said he will fix my car for
me. So it is a blessing really when this happens & it will save me money & help me to spot the real sharks in the industry

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Having been offline for a couple day's i just wanted to say Reine thanks for you response earlier... i dont think there is anything wrong with saying that "girls" as they grow up learn to deal with the reality of dealing with men and the way that men often treat women.. i never learned that... its just a pragmatic view of my reality...if there was additional connatation i think it was read into it..the thought of playing the helpless one never entered my mind..

you rightly called me out on my statement that women can often get what they want from men..thats way overstated in reality...although i wasnt even remotely thinking about flirting or bimbo like behaviour...i was just talking about understanding men from a female point of view in the work place...women and men have been dealing with each other forever, and i havent... so that was all i was commenting on..i wonder if its hard to seperate the stereotype out, and it sneaks in there, so guilty as charged, but i was only really thinking in my mind about work...

in any case, i'm very much in learning mode on this because i'm just getting back into the work world..

[Hope]

That's the spirit!!

But looking at the bigger picture, any woman who uses all these 'feminine wiles' in an attempt to manipulate men does perpetuate the "bimbo" culture, and this is why other GGs just roll our eyes when we see this.

And maybe this is where my disappointment with you comes from. Your willingness to look down on women who choose to live their lives in a way that is different from the way you choose to live your life.

You can't call yourself a feminist, and say that you support a women's right to self determination, but then when she chooses to live differently than you do, dismiss her as a "bimbo," roll your eyes at her, and treat her as if she were less than a "real woman."

[Louise C]

Reading these last few posts brings something to mind - is there only one way of being a woman? Is there a mould we should all adhere to?

........No, i don't think so either!

If all trans-people tried to act in a certain way, surely it would be instantly recognisable to others. A bit like a quote from another post about all of Zukowski's girls looking the same and thus being easy to spot.....

[ReineD]

You can't call yourself a feminist, and say that you support a women's right to self determination, but then when she chooses to live differently than you do, dismiss her as a "bimbo," roll your eyes at her, and treat her as if she were less than a "real woman."

At the heart of it all, Hope, it is about being true to oneself and respecting others, whether we are male or female. A woman (or a man) who purposely behaves in a way that is designed to manipulate someone else in order to get what she or he wants does not have my respect. Feminism comes into it since it was a necessary vehicle to give women their voice in the last century, but my argument is not about feminism. It is about integrity.

[TammieIII]

I would find it amusing; In the passed I worked at a personal electronic store, Im pretty tech savy. However, we just hired a young college student and she learned fast, but if we were both at the counter. And she would ask if she could assist someone they would alway start talking to me about thire problem, I found that the women would do more often than the guys, most of the time I would just pass it back on to the you college student to answer the question. I found it amusing and rude all at the same time.

[Jay Cee]

I'll happily put my two cents worth in on this topic - which is fascinating, btw.

If we want to fit in, we need to learn to interact with men, not as men, but as women - and a significant part of that is stroking men's egos and tolerating their condescending bullshit.

First off, reading this made me feel slightly nauseous. If true, I'm going to have a difficult time dealing with being a woman. A very difficult time.

My experiences with interactions between men and women generally have been somewhere between positive and neutral. I do notice that sales people will tend to address me much more often when my SO and I are out shopping for a more expensive item. The most notable time was when Louise was shopping for a new car at a local dealership. It was abundantly clear that it was for her, and that she was the one paying for it, and yet the salesperson addressed 90% of her sales talk to me. Needless to say, she did not get the sale.

As far as men thinking that women are incapable of dealing with "complicated" subjects, I've found that most women that I have talked to really don't care about the technical details of a car, or a computer, or whatever gadget is being discussed. Does that mean that they are less capable? Heck, no! They simply have other priorities. I've learned to edit information for my SO - she doesn't want all the details of an internal combustion engine, or whatever I may have some interest in.

I haven't seen much in the way of the "helpless female syndrome" around here. I am glad of it, too - it is basically a form of manipulation, and a very annoying one.

[Hope]

I haven't seen much in the way of the "helpless female syndrome" around here. I am glad of it, too - it is basically a form of manipulation, and a very annoying one.

You don't have to be helpless. But you do need to learn to interact with the world differently than you do as a man. There are lots of ways you can do that - but it will be different than you deal with the world now. Besides, that girl who looks helpless to you, is anything but. She is way more shrewd and calculating and powerful than the brash feminist who thinks she is going to play with the boys on their terms.

As men we all learned how to play the dominance game. We all learned how to stare down another guy. If you really think you don't have to behave differently around men as a woman, try staring down a guy while wearing a skirt. Seriously, give it a try - I would love to watch.

I guarantee you that if you are passable, and interact with the world as a woman in the same way you do as a man, at best, people will think you are a bitch. Maybe you are comfortable being a bitch? Cool. We all have our place in the world. But women interact with the world differently than men do - and women interact with men much differently than men interact with each other. For a zillion reasons.

[Melody Moore]

I am sorry Jay Cee, but I have to agree with Hope here. As a woman there is a hell of a lot to learn
because women do things & deal with many things very differently to how use were use to as males.

Another interesting observation is how groups of men & women communicate when they are in a
group situation with their same sex peers. And getting use to communicating with a group of woman
is very hard & very mentally demanding compared to communicating with a group of men. With men
in a group, generally one male will be talking while the others are being quite & listening to the speaker.

However when you are with a group of 6 or more women, you will have 2 women over here talking to
each other while at the same time there is another 2 women talking to each other & you are having
another conversation with the other woman. But each & every one of those women know what the
other women are all talking about, they can be monitoring several other conversations while having
one themselves. I think most men could cope with this because it is not how they interact with peers,
with men, there is always respect for their peers not to over-talk each other. This also comes back
to a woman's ability to multi-task, where guys seem to just focus on a single task or agenda usually.

So when you find yourself in a group of women as a woman, you will find it very hard to get a word in
because you would be so use to waiting for your turn to come around to speak that won't ever happen.
With a group of women you feel very awkward at first just trying to get a word in. You will also feel very
exhausted just from trying to take everything in & keep up with everything going on in such a dynamic
group. You will also probably feel very frustrated because the women are not giving you that male privilege
you are use to. So who changes here, is it us or is it them? I think to fit in as a woman takes more work
than many people ever realise.

[ReineD]

As men we all learned how to play the dominance game. We all learned how to stare down another guy. If you really think you don't have to behave differently around men as a woman, try staring down a guy while wearing a skirt.

But women interact with the world differently than men do - and women interact with men much differently than men interact with each other. For a zillion reasons.

I'd like to make peace with you, Hope.

I totally agree with what you are saying here. There is a difference between how men and women deal with situations. I cannot see myself being confrontational or territorial with someone (man or woman) when I want results. It seems to me this approach would just put their backs up against the wall and cause them to lock horns in return. You mentioned earlier, a more open, positive approach and I agree, this does work best. You do sense that women approach a situation differently and I'm suggesting the difference is in adopting a cooperative more than a flirty approach.

Men change their stances and relax when they are dealing with a woman. They aren't on their guard as much since a woman poses less of a threat, and so men don't direct the male-oriented, domineering and confrontational vibes toward them. They do instead adopt a more open, cooperative approach ... unless they are sexist and dismissive.

So, maybe we are not at odds after all. I can see a woman feeling as if she needs to pander to a man's ego if she is surrounded by sexist and dismissive men, if this is the only way she can get them to cooperate with her. And perhaps this was the case a generation ago. What I was saying earlier is that men and women have changed and the majority of men I encounter in my daily life are not sexist and dismissive. But, when I do encounter such men, I am able to define my boundaries and I can do this by being firm, without having to resort to bitchiness or coquetry, since I've had enough experiences with cooperative men to have given me the confidence to do so.

[Pythos]

any woman who uses all these 'feminine wiles' in an attempt to manipulate men does perpetuate the "bimbo" culture

It is amazing how difficult it is to get this point across.

[JenniferZ2009]

So when you find yourself in a group of women as a woman, you will find it very hard to get a word in
because you would be so use to waiting for your turn to come around to speak that won't ever happen.
With a group of women you feel very awkward at first just trying to get a word in. You will also feel very
exhausted just from trying to take everything in & keep up with everything going on in such a dynamic
group. You will also probably feel very frustrated because the women are not giving you that male privilege
you are use to. So who changes here, is it us or is it them? I think to fit in as a woman takes more work
than many people ever realise.

I agree with you Melody. That is a very good example of the little things that we need to learn to be able to function living along cis-females. It takes alot of work that many of use are not aware of. Iv'e been reading but not really posting much but here is my thought.

We cant go into these situations bringing along our old playbooks, we have to leave those behind and pick up the new female playbook and start trying to learn the language. I agree the "bimbo" thing can be very annoying but maybe it is a survival skill that she had learned early in life. Maybe she is not that smart but very cute and has learned to use that to her advantage. Whatever her reason is that is her choice. Are we going to get made at a guy for drinking beer while working on a car? That is a stereotypical behavior and makes all men look like savage brutes. The majority of us will just say oh that's just a guy being a guy. Those who look down on a female and up to a guy (or vis versa for a transman) for "perpetuating stereotypes" I think is still living in the old gender. In the case of a female being looked down upon that is something that is a classic male empowerment behavior. Quit acting like such a female and start acting normal like us men or us feminists. That being said, I believe that we should work to remove the strangle hold that men hold on females such as the thought that women belong at home and not in the work place or in power. This however is a different thing than using our female charms to get what we need.

I am not the best fast-talker like my brother and other strong men I have meet , but I am very smart and just got a job with Microsoft doing development work on the Xbox. One quarter in school I was so sick the entire quarter and was late in tuning in an assignment. This assignment had a deadline and would have destroyed my grade and I would have failed the class. It did not get done on time so the day it was due I got dressed real nice (as sexy as can considering it was school) and spoke to my teacher. I got the extension and my grade was saved. I think I used a play from the female rulebook in that one.

[ReineD]

Jennifer, I just want to say that my SO is a college professor, who teaches in guy mode. Please believe me when I say that profs will do what they can to help a student if there is a valid reason, whether they need an extension, or they need to take an exam at a later date ... as long as the student is in good standing.

Profs do want to see their students pass, both the males and females. It reflects well on them. Also, profs are well aware nowadays to not be sexist in terms of student treatment. Things have changed even in just the last 20 years and a prof would jeopardize his career if he were caught giving preferential treatment to a female. You got your extension because you deserve it.

[JenniferZ2009]

perhaps..but the deadline was a non-negotiable no extensions whatever deadline.. May have not been the best example then, but my point is still the same.,

[Kaitlyn26]

So I've started to notice male privilege, or lack-there-of in my case.

I've been diagnosing an electrical problem on my truck. Three times my boyfriend and I went to Autozone. Every time, I was doing the talking, saying how "MY truck has this issue and I'M trying to fix it and what do you think?"

Instead of explaining it to me, when he's done nodding and listening, and then turns to my boyfriend to tell him what he thinks the issue might be. HE'S NOT THE ONE TALKING TO YOU!

They were all wrong with their diagnosis anyway... MEN! Ugghh.....

How did I miss this thread? I was trying to fix a car for a friend of my step dad's. I was trying to explain to the "sales rep" that all z28 optioned camaros come with a 5.7L v-8 (and that the one I was fixing was a v-8 car), as she insisted that they could be purchased with a v-6. Ugh stupid people! Finally I got her to sell me the part that was required. She did snicker and say "See you in an hour", as if I was going to need to make a return or something. So at least they didn't laugh at you!

I seriously can not stand the people at the local auto parts store. The guy that's the manager there, and the woman that's the assistant manager are the worst. I've gotten to the point that I won't take their help anymore and tell them to move out of my way, or get someone else.

[Wendy_Marie]

Back to the OP..did you get your truck fixed?

[Bree-asaurus]

Back to the OP..did you get your truck fixed?

I did It ended up being a bad ground between the engine and cab. I couldn't find it... so it fell off or was badly corroded or something, but I ran a new ground and everything works! I checked the other grounds, and the main ground from the battery to the engine but totally missed that one. I had torn apart the dash looking for bad linked fuses and realized that it was a grounding issue when I was getting a lower voltage reading using the cab as a ground versus the battery.

[Melody Moore]

She did snicker and say "See you in an hour", as if I was going to need to make a return or something.

Thank you for Kaitlyn for highlighting that it is not only males that assume that females are dumb & don't understand
mechanical issues. Here is a female that just because she doesn't know about such things, it doesn't mean that other
women don't. I spent some time years ago working in spare parts & there was women I worked with that knew more
than I did - so it is wrong for anyone male or female to assume that females don't understand motor mechanics.

I too went to an Autobarn store here to buy a combination 12v tail light/stop light lamp for my car. I had the blown
lamp in my hand. I showed the woman what I was after and told her I wanted to know where to find it in the store.
But instead she got on the phone and called a guy to come down to the front counter to "Help a lady". While it was
very reassuring to me that people are seeing me & accepting me as a female, I was also made to feel that because
I was now a woman I was now "helpless". Not all women are helpless and most don't like to be made feel helpless!!!
But we shouldn't assume it is sexism either when it could be just common courtesy as part of their customer service.

Some mentioned here that as females, we should milk it for all that we can, but that attitude reminds me of the
brainless bimbos you come across in a bar that expect any man they talk to, to buy them drinks for the pleasure
of their company. But the reality is who are these bimbos kidding??? I wised up a long time ago to this and as a
woman this is something I would never do. I feel like I would be lowering myself to something that is just above
gutter level & should be standing on a street corner. No thanks! I think any woman who expects a male to do
everything is extremely selfish & lazy and they also have a lot of tickets on themselves. The reality is they are
living in a bubble and it takes just the tiniest of pricks to all be gone in an instant.

I know women who are like this and for this reason I never really befriended them or if I did, then it never lasted.
I think how we interact and related to other people should be with a healthy equilibrium of equality in all of our
relationships or interactions with other people. Getting angry & upset to the point we start becoming obnoxious,
& start behaving rudely when confronting sexism isn't going to solve the problem. It won't make us look good, it
usually will just make us look a lot worse. But there are more peaceful ways to protest & voice our disgust in more
subtle ways. I did it by just walking out of that mechanics workshop without saying a word & never going back to
him. It might take this guy sometime to figure it all out, but that is his problem to deal with, and the best part is
that I know I walked away with all my dignity still fully intact.