Are All Crossdressers Transgendered

[Lorileah]

I see the point. But what I would say is that at one time it was outside of the norm for women to wear such things.

With that logic then at one time it was outside the norm to wear anything.

Since the clothing issue is purely societal and what a person is thus decided by a group of people whom are not really a defined group of people the whole argument is moot.

[SweetIonis]

With that logic then at one time it was outside the norm to wear anything.

Ah! The good old days!!! LOL!!!

Since the clothing issue is purely societal and what a person is thus decided by a group of people whom are not really a defined group of people the whole argument is moot.

I don't think society is deciding what the person is. The person is what they are, and the choices they make in terms of their behavior determines that. However, the labels that people choose for certain types of behavior can cause misconceptions if the terms are not chosen carefully. It's particularly irritating when someone who had no role in choosing the label, finds themselves being misidentified with something that they do not want to be associated with.

[ReineD]

Since it was outside of the norms at one time, were women who did so at that time crossdressing? What if tomorrow, Ralph Lauren started to make "booty" shorts for men. Would a man, who had no intent to crossdress, NOT be crossdressing if he wore them, just because they were designed for men?

Women were no more CDing when they started to wear pants as men are today when they start to wear man skirts. I don't know if this will take off or not, but here are some pics:

http://images.nymag.com/daily/fashio...rt_250x375.jpg
http://cdn.trendhunterstatic.com/thu...landinger.jpeg
http://cdn.trendhunterstatic.com/php...859_5_600.jpeg

Men who wear sarongs or kilts aren't CDing. My 75 year old dad was not CDing when he purchased women's tights to wear under his pants during the cold winter months because he needed the added warmth.

Louis XVI was not CDing when he wore tights, heeled boots, wigs, and lace. He would have CDed had he worn Marie-Antoinette's gown. Clothing norms do change. It is not what is worn so much as it is crossing the barrier between what is generally accepted as men and women's clothing for the times. When women began to wear pants, they were within the norms of the multitude of women who wished for convenience and equality, and the pants they wore were accepted as being women's pants.

In a literal sense, the term "crossdressing" means crossing the gender barrier with clothing. It is assumed that the purpose of doing this (which is evident in just about every thread in the Picture Gallery) is to present as the gender opposite than birth.

So what do we make of men such as Jive-Turkey-On-Rye or Intertwined, who prefer to present an androgynous, mixture-of-both, or man-in-a-skirt look? I don't know that I would consider it CDing in the same sense that has come to represent the vast majority of members here. I suppose those of you who like to debate the finer points could could start a discussion about the exceptions (sorry Jive & Intertwined ), the few men here who present as men and who like to wear skirts. It's up to you. I prefer to settle on definitions that pertain to the vast majority and also acknowledge there are a few people who fit outside the CDing norms.

[Schatten Lupus]

Some months ago there were a slew of threads posted by CDs who postulated that women who wear pants (women's pants purchased in women's clothing stores) are CDing, since pants were originally worn by men, and women have "appropriated" them, but, you know ... women should "really" be wearing dresses. lol The goal in saying these things was to complain about the injustice of women being "allowed" to CD, while men aren't.

I've not heard that one before, except from a small percentage of Christians who believe pants (even womens jeans that are specifically designed to accommodate a female body) are only for men and women must wear skirts or dresses. But isn't it nice that things change over time, and women can wear pants without being considered an abomination. And they can do "manly" jobs with some people cheering them on, rather than wanting to see them in a mental institute. And of course they can now be politicians, whereas it used to be considered that politics was just too rough of an environment for the frail women to get involved with.

Would a man, who had no intent to crossdress, NOT be crossdressing if he wore them, just because they were designed for men?

No. No one considers a guy who wears the "mantyhose" or whatever they're called a crossdresser, and even before those men have worn panty hose for certain reasons such as preventing leg chaffing from horse riding, or preventing jellyfish stings.

[ReineD]

I've not heard that one before ...

Oh, believe me, the debates about this were long and tedious. Still, once in awhile there'll be a newbie who posts his outrage over his wife being allowed to wear pants while he can't wear skirts, and he'll refer to his wife's clothing choices as CDing. I do understand the frustration some CDs experience over not having as many clothing choices as women, But, CDs are not doing themselves any favors when they point fingers at women instead of coming to terms with their own motives for the CDing. IMO. And generally speaking.

[SweetIonis]

In a literal sense, the term "crossdressing" means crossing the gender barrier with clothing. It is assumed that the purpose of doing this (which is evident in just about every thread in the Picture Gallery) is to present as the gender opposite than birth.

OK, so since we are talking about what goes on here, would you say that the men here on this forum that crossdress, who say that they have no desire to be a woman, are cross dressing to present themselves as women?

[ReineD]

OK, so since we are talking about what goes on here, would you say that the men here on this forum that crossdress, who say that they have no desire to be a woman, are cross dressing to present themselves as women?

It sure looks like it to me, based on the desires expressed in their posts, the questions about clothing and makeup, the discussion of breast forms, vaginas, tucking, hip pads, corsets, lingerie, wigs, and the pics in the Gallery. Generally speaking, of course.

[SweetIonis]

Hmmmm............

Exhibit A

[SweetIonis]

It sure looks like it to me, based on the desires expressed in their posts, the questions about clothing and makeup, the discussion of breast forms, vaginas, tucking, hip pads, corsets, lingerie, wigs, and the pics in the Gallery.

So in essence, you are saying that the desires in a person's mind can be inferred from speech and behavior.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

So in essence, you are saying that the desires in a person's mind can be inferred from speech and behavior.

just a thought for you ...
you are skipping over a concept in the discussion... you are just staring down a rabbit hole when you get too analytical without considering what is going on from 30000 feet first....the distinctions you are making have merit, but aren't really helpful imho in making your point..

this is a simple fact.. almost every crossdresser feels sexual pleasure around crossdressing..
if a woman gets all decked like lady gaga in fake beard stubble and male drag, then goes into the shower and pleasures herself...that is similar to what all the guys here are doing...otherwise its not..this is why universally when a woman dresses up like a man, no one bothers to really infer anything about it...its just not an issue

only each of us knows what images, clothes, thoughts create the pleasurable feeling...and for many crossdressers, its the feeling of "being" a woman, that creates the pleasure..whether you can infer something from speech and behavior is not the point.
i could infer that person is probably a transsexual in denial, or i could infer that person has a "fetish" for appearing as a woman, or that person is gender queer...it doesnt matter what i infer..

plus there is a social construct in our current time that guys don't wear pantyhose, guys don't wear womens clothes....
REGARDLESS of whether its fair, or whether it changes over time, or whether there is a pocket of people in new Guinea where men wear dresses..... this is just a fact of today's world ...

so crossdressing crosses social boundries AND its usually sexual for men, and women wearing mens clothes is socially acceptable and not sexually motivated at all..

it may be simply that this sexual component to crossdressing is that makes some people feel differently about what is "transgendered" and what is not...sex and gender are different things and people tend to have strong views... for example, the transsexual that has never felt sexual pleasure around dressing as a woman (and btw...many ts people feel sexual pleasure around it for much of their lives) wonders why they are included in a group that feels sexual pleasure around women's clothes..

so these men (us!) get labeled by society...and the inference made by people is not thoughtfully and deeply discussed by most people... the just infer we are different/weird/courageous/lowlife...etcetc...and the inference that you or i might make (after careful consideration of motives, appearance..etc...isn't really important)...unfortunately no matter what we say on this forum, the label matters especially to a transsexual that is trying to live every day, and make money as an out transsexual...

The out or non passing ts gets to see the implications of this label every day...and its not pretty.

[ReineD]

this is a simple fact.. almost every crossdresser feels sexual pleasure around crossdressing ...

... only each of us knows what images, clothes, thoughts create the pleasurable feeling...and for many crossdressers, its the feeling of "being" a woman, that creates the pleasure

I think if we took a poll, most CDs would say that it did start out sexually during their teenage years. And when there is such a high level of pleasure, it makes sense that the brain would rewire itself and associate a feeling of well-being with the dressing, long after the sexual urges are gone. This would also explain why it escalates for many, beginning with lingerie, then progressing to clothes, makeup, wig, etc; it's an attempt to recreate the same "feelings" as the CD ages. I know that Blanchard is not a favorite around here, but he compares the process to a man who has a deep emotional attachment to his wife long after the marriage has lost its passion. This is the goal of passion after all: to form bonds.

So, what came first, the chicken or the egg?

[Kaitlyn Michele]

the chegg???

you could also reverse it Reine..

perhaps the testosterone driven mind actually is only relieving the incredible tension caused by having a deep gender conflict.. almost every transsexual will say (me included) that they recall having transsexual thoughts from their earliest memory... my thoughts were more around wishing i had been a girl, rather than knowing that i was a girl...this distinction, that i made as a little kid, impacted my life in a huge way...realizing as a teenager that i could derive sexual pleasure from my feelings quickly became obsessive, guilt ridden behavior that momentarily quieted my anxiety.. it never felt "good"...

what i found out in transitioning was the reasons, the questions, the labels just melted away in knowing i had done what i needed...
this is a benefit of transition for the transsexual...clarity and closure... the idea of changing my gender seems incomprehensible to me now, and it dominated the first 45+ years of my life...its quite amazing actually..

[LeaP]

A designer can plunk an obviously effeminate garment (e.g., booty shorts in 2011) into their men's product line and, though it may be designed for a man's body and aimed at the men's market, it is still, nonetheless, effeminate, and I'd make the crossdressing argument for the man wearing it. Reine's point went to culturally-accepted gender-appropriate design. The point about intent is related to cultural acceptance. That is, if one wears a gender-acceptable garment (matching one's own sex, that is), it's hard to see any rational crossdressing argument from an external viewer's standpoint, regardless of intent. If one knowingly breaches the gender acceptability boundary (i.e., intentionally) it's crossdressing. One may do so ignorantly, of course. Whether or not you choose to call it crossdressing at that point or idiocy or something else is really not material to the crossdressing discussion.

The case of ladies pants is interesting. If you go back far enough - the 19th century, say - almost any use of pants would have been viewed as crossdressing. By the early years of the 20th century, however, pants were well-established, but only for certain activities (e.g., riding, gardening) in the first 2 or 3 decades. To wear pants out socially would have been viewed more as inappropriate or provocatively distasteful than crossdressing.

Lea

[ReineD]

perhaps the testosterone driven mind actually is only relieving the incredible tension caused by having a deep gender conflict..

Exactly. It's a "chegg".

almost every transsexual will say (me included) that they recall having transsexual thoughts from their earliest memory... my thoughts were more around wishing i had been a girl, rather than knowing that i was a girl...this distinction, that i made as a little kid, impacted my life in a huge way...realizing as a teenager that i could derive sexual pleasure from my feelings quickly became obsessive, guilt ridden behavior that momentarily quieted my anxiety.. it never felt "good"...

what i found out in transitioning was the reasons, the questions, the labels just melted away in knowing i had done what i needed...
this is a benefit of transition for the transsexual...clarity and closure... the idea of changing my gender seems incomprehensible to me now, and it dominated the first 45+ years of my life...its quite amazing actually..

Thanks for explaining this, Kaitlyn.

Only one more thing remains to be explained, and this is why, for some, the GID reaches a level where to continue living as a man is unbearable to the point of suicide. While others can keep it in check, even though it impacts their marriages, perhaps jobs, their social lives ... certainly it affects the quality of their lives. And still others can easily turn the switch on and off, in other words, being a man never becomes unbearable even if there is a deep connection to a feminine psyche that is beyond the sexual. What are the factors involved .. is it personality, physiology, life circumstances?

I wonder if anyone will ever find the answers.

[SweetIonis]

just a thought for you ...
you are skipping over a concept in the discussion... you are just staring down a rabbit hole when you get too analytical without considering what is going on from 30000 feet first....the distinctions you are making have merit, but aren't really helpful imho in making your point..

Kaitlyn, thank you so very much for pointing this out! The way you did it was very kind and I appreciate it very much. I really need the help of others, that without malice, can point out things like this to me. Please by all means continue to do this.

You are right, it's not the larger issue. The larger issue is inaccurate labels. But I suppose this was something that has been in my mind for sometime, that I find very interesting, that I was trying to get resolved in a more decisive manner. A friend of mine once told the that part of my problem was that I like to put everything into boxes. LOL!

You have been so helpful to me lately Kaitlyn. You just don't know what it means to me!

[TammieIII]

I am who I am; If there is a need for a label then I''m transgendered I only wish I realized my identity earlier in my life.

[*Vanessa*]

I am who I am; If there is a need for a label then I''m transgendered I only wish I realized my identity earlier in my life.

Dido ! - the rest of the message is filler to appease the code monkey. :P

[wildsylph]

wow, This was insightful and confusing. The confusing part is the word transgender shadowing the different forms of gender understanding/reasoning. But if the information was there in the beginning of understanding the topic, it would've lessen my confusion on what terms can label an individual. And sometimes I do have the moments of wanting more feminine appearance, if that is the criteria of being labeled transgender. Then hay, the shoe fits. (size 12)

[Annaliese2010]

Is there a single source standard, or maybe a few that are universally or at least generally accepted as accurate with respect to definition of terms? I mean official references one can go to?

[ReineD]

Is there a single source standard, or maybe a few that are universally or at least generally accepted as accurate with respect to definition of terms? I mean official references one can go to?

Take a look at Wikipedia's definition of transgender. I know that an article in wikipedia isn't considered an definitive source since anyone can edit it, but it is still an excellent reference. Each article lists the original sources. This particular article lists 160 independent references from books, peer reviewed journals, etc. I'm sure if you sift through each of these sources, you'll find the term "transgender" consistently used to refer to anyone who crosses the gender boundaries in some way, and a "transsexual" is an individual who does not feel his or her primary sexual characteristics matches his or her gender identity.

I cannot post a link to the online version of Oxford's English Dictionary since it requires a $300 per year subscription, but the Wikipedia OEM source #2 does say, "Transgender, adj. Of, relating to, or designating a person whose identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender, but combines or moves between these..."

An argument can be made that a male may well wish to put on women's clothing for the purpose of presenting as a woman (or perhaps just for comfort whether it is sensual, sexual, or not), and still believe that he is conforming to the conventional notions of gender. But, I submit there are psychological and educational factors that may skew this person's self-identification or motives ... unless it is strictly an object fetish in which case I don't see the difference between items of women's clothing and other items such as latex or fur.

Generally speaking.

[juno]

I think if we took a poll, most CDs would say that it did start out sexually during their teenage years. And when there is such a high level of pleasure, it makes sense that the brain would rewire itself and associate a feeling of well-being with the dressing, long after the sexual urges are gone. This would also explain why it escalates for many, beginning with lingerie, then progressing to clothes, makeup, wig, etc; it's an attempt to recreate the same "feelings" as the CD ages. I know that Blanchard is not a favorite around here, but he compares the process to a man who has a deep emotional attachment to his wife long after the marriage has lost its passion. This is the goal of passion after all: to form bonds.

So, what came first, the chicken or the egg?

That is not me at all. I was into sewing, crochet, cake decorating, and other girl things long before I took up crossdressing.

My theory has always been that it has a fetish aspect in young people because any thing that has any chance of being sexually associated at that ages does become sexual. So, even if it begins as a fetish, it is hard to know if the fetish was the trigger.

It would be interesting to compare people who started crossdressing during puberty versus those who felt significant feminine interests before puberty. Are crossdressers much more represented in the started-at-puberty group?

[ReineD]

^ I know that gender specialists do ask when the CDing began. I've read in various places that it is generally thought, if it began during preschool years it might point to GID. But this still won't fit everyone.

[Wendy_Marie]

That is not me at all. I was into sewing, crochet, cake decorating, and other girl things long before I took up crossdressing.

My theory has always been that it has a fetish aspect in young people because any thing that has any chance of being sexually associated at that ages does become sexual. So, even if it begins as a fetish, it is hard to know if the fetish was the trigger.

It would be interesting to compare people who started crossdressing during puberty versus those who felt significant feminine interests before puberty. Are crossdressers much more represented in the started-at-puberty group?

The only problem with this theory is like you state it began in me long before Puberty (Unless puberty began around the age of five.)and the thought of it being sexual didn't occur to me until during the middle of puberty.., and even then i didn't dress to obtain a sexual thrill in as much as I dressed to feel normal and comfortable which then would often lead to sexual excitement.

Fetish is loosely defined as an abnormal fascination with an inanimate object....so in my case anyway...I was not crossdressing as a fetish but as a way to be me.

And as ReineD states...The time line seems to be a real factor in determining ones diagnosis from the standpoint of a clincian...that is why i state emphatically that No, not all Transgender person are crossdressers.

[Vickie_CDTV]

One can have a fetish from a very young age, whether it is for some article of ladies clothing or rubber or whatever. I found I was turned on when I was 6 years old when I was wearing my object of fascination; at 6 I didn't understand what it meant or why it happened of course, but I clearly remember being stimulated to the point of having erections. (Without even being told, I instinctively knew it was something to be ashamed of and knew others should not find out.)

[vetobob9]

Let me see, do the latest studies on transgender differ at all from those which had it down as a mental disease or defect? You tell me.

The jury is still out. But, being transgendered is now seen less and less lie a mental disorder, academically and medically. But it continues to be viewed that way on main street despite what the "experts" on mental disorder say.
Chalk that part up to simple bias.