Are All Crossdressers Transgendered

[vetobob9]

Discussions about this have been a major bee in my bonnet, so if you don't mind, Lea, I'll answer.

Some months ago there were a slew of threads posted by CDs who postulated that women who wear pants (women's pants purchased in women's stores) are CDing, since pants were originally worn by men, and women have "appropriated" them, but, you know ... women should "really" be wearing dresses. lol The goal in saying these things was to complain about the injustice of women being "allowed" to CD, while men aren't.

I do agree that women's fashion choices are more varied than men's. But, it is preposterous to suggest that women are CDing when they wear pants or blue that are designed for women.

The problem with that is if a guy wears a skirt that was designed for men to wear, he is still considered a cross dresser.

t sure looks like it to me, based on the desires expressed in their posts, the questions about and makeup, the discussion of breast forms, vaginas, tucking, hip pads, corsets, lingerie, wigs, and the pics in the Gallery. Generally speaking, of course.

I thought breastforms, for the non TS, was for the purpose of making some clothes look better.

Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele
just a thought for you ...
you are skipping over a concept in the discussion... you are just staring down a rabbit hole when you get too analytical without considering what is going on from 30000 feet first....the distinctions you are making have merit, but aren't really helpful imho in making your point..

this is a simple fact.. almost every crossdresser feels sexual pleasure around crossdressing..
if a woman gets all decked like lady gaga in fake beard stubble and male drag, then goes into the shower and pleasures herself...that is similar to what all the guys here are doing...otherwise its not..this is why universally when a woman dresses up like a man, no one bothers to really infer anything about it...its just not an issue

only each of us knows what images, , thoughts create the pleasurable feeling...and for many crossdressers, its the feeling of "being" a woman, that creates the pleasure..whether you can infer something from speech and behavior is not the point.
i could infer that person is probably a transsexual in denial, or i could infer that person has a "fetish" for appearing as a woman, or that person is gender queer...it doesnt matter what i infer..

plus there is a social construct in our current time that guys don't wear pantyhose, guys don't wear womens clothes....
REGARDLESS of whether its fair, or whether it changes over time, or whether there is a pocket of people in new Guinea where men wear dresses..... this is just a fact of today's world ...

so crossdressing crosses social boundries AND its usually sexual for men, and women wearing mens clothes is socially acceptable and not sexually motivated at all..

it may be simply that this sexual component to crossdressing is that makes some people feel differently about what is "transgendered" and what is not...sex and gender are different things and people tend to have strong views... for example, the transsexual that has never felt sexual pleasure around dressing as a woman (and btw...many ts people feel sexual pleasure around it for much of their lives) wonders why they are included in a group that feels sexual pleasure around women's clothes..

so these men (us!) get labeled by society...and the inference made by people is not thoughtfully and deeply discussed by most people... the just infer we are different/weird/courageous/lowlife...etcetc...and the inference that you or i might make (after careful consideration of motives, appearance..etc...isn't really important)...unfortunately no matter what we say on this forum, the label matters especially to a transsexual that is trying to live every day, and make money as an out transsexual...

The out or non passing ts gets to see the implications of this label every day...and its not pretty.

That's very broad brush. Not all men who wear women's clothing do so just to pleasure themselves as you put it.

If I do it, it's not because of the clothes, in fact when I do, I'm usually not wearing fem clothing but male clothing and probably thinking about some attractive female I met or because I read a passage in a nice romantic book.
The clothing has nothing to do with it.

Originally Posted by ReineD
I think if we took a poll, most CDs would say that it did start out sexually during their teenage years. And when there is such a high level of pleasure, it makes sense that the brain would rewire itself and associate a feeling of well-being with the dressing, long after the sexual urges are gone. This would also explain why it escalates for many, beginning with lingerie, then progressing to clothes, makeup, wig, etc; it's an attempt to recreate the same "feelings" as the CD ages. I know that Blanchard is not a favorite around here, but he compares the process to a man who has a deep emotional attachment to his wife long after the marriage has lost its passion. This is the goal of passion after all: to form bonds.

So, what came first, the chicken or the egg?

Then how do you explain someone such as myself who first began crossdressing, when he was in first grade and too young to know anything about sex or even to get sexual pleasure out of it?

When I did, I actually got in trouble for it because I went outside in it. LOL.

Just like I got in trouble when I used the girls restroom when I was in kindergarten.

That's probably why a lot transgendered people are in the closet because when they did it as children, they took a lot of heat for it.

[Annaliese2010]

I think if we took a poll, most CDs would say that it did start out sexually during their teenage years. And when there is such a high level of pleasure, it makes sense that the brain would rewire itself and associate a feeling of well-being with the dressing, long after the sexual urges are gone. This would also explain why it escalates for many, beginning with lingerie, then progressing to clothes, makeup, wig, etc; it's an attempt to recreate the same "feelings" as the CD ages. I know that Blanchard is not a favorite around here, but he compares the process to a man who has a deep emotional attachment to his wife long after the marriage has lost its passion. This is the goal of passion after all: to form bonds.

So, what came first, the chicken or the egg?

That's a brilliant analysis! I mean...it so happens to Not apply to me (my personal life, for what EVer reason follows a truly circuitous often random, abrupt and unpredictible path). But your analysis certainly makes great intuitive sense! Perhaps as...and oops maybe not, I'm just saying....perhaps it's similar to a person who must up the dose if addicted to a drug? IDK.....Maybe...maybe not. IDK..

Take a look at Wikipedia's definition of transgender. I know that an article in wikipedia isn't considered an definitive source since anyone can edit it, but it is still an excellent reference. Each article lists the original sources. This particular article lists 160 independent references from books, peer reviewed journals, etc. I'm sure if you sift through each of these sources, you'll find the term "transgender" consistently used to refer to anyone who crosses the gender boundaries in some way, and a "transsexual" is an individual who does not feel his or her primary sexual characteristics matches his or her gender identity.

I cannot post a link to the online version of Oxford's English Dictionary since it requires a $300 per year subscription, but the Wikipedia OEM source #2 does say, "Transgender, adj. Of, relating to, or designating a person whose identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender, but combines or moves between these..."

An argument can be made that a male may well wish to put on women's clothing for the purpose of presenting as a woman (or perhaps just for comfort whether it is sensual, sexual, or not), and still believe that he is conforming to the conventional notions of gender. But, I submit there are psychological and educational factors that may skew this person's self-identification or motives ... unless it is strictly an object fetish in which case I don't see the difference between items of women's clothing and other items such as latex or fur.

Generally speaking.

Thank you Reine! I'm like...yeah...Ok...you've won me over on this very important issue Ya know...my problem was...I had sort of developed my own definitions going along in time for more than trivial reasons. But yes as you say... Words matter. If there isn't general agreement wrt word definition how can there be effective communication or mutual understaning? Well...anyways...like I say you've convinced me girl. I shall study the standard defs, memorize and adopt them. Again...Thanks Reine! Rationality wins in the end.

[SweetIonis]

I suppose there are two things going on here:

1. What is the meaning of transgendered?
2. Is it a good idea for the leadership of the LBGT community to use the term "transgender" as a designation for ALL persons who cross dress.

Part of the problem with the first item is that gender identity can be something that is quite subjective. For example if we were to ask everyone just what does it mean to be masculine, or what does it mean to be feminine, what does it mean to be a woman, and what does it mean to be a man, we would get many different answers. And because gender identity is based on the notions of what is masculine, what is feminine, what is a man, and what is a woman, we can run into some difficulty when trying to objectively determine a person's gender identity. For instance for some people any man who engages in crossdressing is feminine, no matter what he might say. And then someone could put forward the notion that there is no such thing as an unambiguous gender identity because if you examined closely enough you could find traces of masculinity, femininity, male, and female within everyone.

So the point is that, for the most part we have take what a person personally feels and the PREPONDERANCE of their EXTERNAL behavior THAT CAN BE OBSERVED THOUGH A NORMAL AMOUNT OF SOCIAL INTERCOURSE, to determine how to relate to the person in terms of their gender identity. It's not something that should be imposed, because of semantics, on others because that could result in an extremely severe type of tyranny. Imagine the psychological problems could result to a person, if they were put into an environment were practically everyone they came in contact with were to relate to them as a person with a gender identity diametrically opposed to what they themselves felt that they were.

I have said earlier and I will reiterate. I have noticed that men who crossdress, but who feel that their gender identity is that of a male, do not like to be considered a man who crossdresses because he feels his gender identity is that of a female. Similarly I have noticed that MtoF transsexuals do not like to be associated with crossdressers who engage in crossdressing just to fulfill some temporary fantasy about being a woman. And both have very good reasons for feeling the way that they do. Again the problem with using the label transgender to describe all these groups of people is that the lay person will naturally not make a differentiation between them. And as such persons in these groups will find that they will be associated with activity that they do not want to be a part of.

[Rianna Humble]

Imagine the psychological problems could result to a person, if they were put into an environment were practically everyone they came in contact with were to relate to them as a person with a gender identity diametrically opposed to what they themselves felt that they were.

They might even end up suffering from Gender Dysphoria Or possibly become transsexual if the dysphoria were so acute that they felt compelled to act upon it.

Still, we don't know anyone like that here, or do we?

[SweetIonis]

They might even end up suffering from Gender Dysphoria Or possibly become transsexual if the dysphoria were so acute that they felt compelled to act upon it.

Still, we don't know anyone like that here, or do we?

You mean to tell me there are diabolical tyrants here???

Tell me it ain't so!

[christina s]

I would say no . To me the word transgendered means that you were born as the wrong gender . My crossdressing is me expressing my feminine side and trying to emulate a women not be one if that makes sense .

[SweetIonis]

That makes total sense Christina. It get's to the heart of the matter!

[Kaitlyn Michele]

vetobob .. thnx for the response..

i read your post and think you highlight part of the difficulty in discussing these terms...going into the girls bathroom when you are a little kid is not crossdressing.. trying on clothes and going outside at 6 yrs old is not typical behavior of crossdressers..i used to try on clothes in the attic and come downstairs to play "wedding" in my moms dress..
those are behaviors of mtf transsexuals...

do you feel that you are a crossdresser? i know i did for a very long time.. its just another wrinkle to confuse everyone that many of us take quite along time to come to terms with things ...cds and ts alike...
i bet there are a number of people here looking at this thread that currently think of themselves as crossdressers that will change the way they feel over time..

[SweetIonis]

Time can not only have the effect of changing the way we view ourselves, but also the way we view others. Furthermore it can change our phenomenal and existential viewpoint.

Gender is a funny thing. If you look deeply you will find it is based in desire. Given a certain setting of time and circumstance, desire is the force that when filtered through the particular type of intelligence that an individual has developed, determines behavior. A person's external and internal behavior, when filtered through the type of intelligence they have developed will determine their conceptualization of their identity. The observation of the behavior of others when filtered through the type of intelligence we have developed will determine our conceptualization of the identity of others. What's interesting is that it is not a one way process, because our sense of identity as well as how others identify us will influence our behavior. This is all a part of the complicated process of intelligence acting as a filter of desire.

Desire is the driving force in this matter.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

If desire is the driving force..."Who" or "What" is doing the desiring?

our own concept of ourselves probably can be influenced by other factors. but regardless of how you or i figures it all out..there is at the bottom an identity that is not changeable by what you or i think about it.. and this core identity is what drives everything..it may or may not be binary, but that identity is basically male or female..

what this thread is debating is whether the term transgender applies to (all)crossdressers....

regardless of the answer, its interesting that lots of crossdressers say they don't care, but very few transsexuals say they don't care...
a person without a conflict of their core gender can much more easily say they don't care..its easy to say I'm just a human being, when there is no conflict for you....there is nothing to worry about..this is a massive fundamental difference between cd's and ts's....

people looking at a crossdresser next to a transsexual cannot see this conflict or lack of conflict.. they just see cross gender behaviour, and in their minds, having a core gender conflict can seem literally incomprehensible...but they can understand the idea that the man over there is dressed like a girl quite easily... and so all of us are lumped together, even though we are quite different...further complicating it to onlookers is how many of us start out conceptualizing ourselves as cd's to use ionis idea, and then realize over time that we are actually ts! ....maybe that person is transtransgender...hehe..

[Sue101]

I agree that there is too much confusion with the term transgendered. To me it should really only be used to describe those who float in-between the two binaries and suffer gender dysphoria as a result.

As you said everyone is in fact a mixture of both male and female and so it is not useful to use the transgendered term unless they experience gender dysphoria. And most Cds do not suffer from dysphoria at all. Rather they just want the freedom to express their own femininity - basically in essence they are the male equivalent of tomboys.

The desire to emulate is nothing more than the desire to submerge yourself in your fantasy/escapist role-playing where satisfaction is obtained by making the experience as close as possible to reality so that we believe we an have the same experiences as GGs. The role-playing can reach the point where the CD essentially creates a whole new character that he can switch into whenever he wants to escape from his male reality. You could say that crossdressing is the real-life version of the many examples of on-line fantasy role-playing games that many people become seriously addicted to. Instead of immersing yourself into a computer generated character in a fantasy setting, we use ourselves as the canvas and use the real world as the backdrop. You cannot get more immersive than that!

The problem with accepting the above explanation is that it is not very satisfying and sympathetic compared to claiming the reason behind the crossdressing is transgenderism and that we were born this way. It is a hard sell to convince anyone to accept us, especially our SOs, if we were to explain our desire as fantasy role-playing. Even SOs who have accepted their cding partners would not want to depart from the transgendered explanation.

There is a further complication. Neither gender nor sexual orientation is set in stone. Our desires and self-identity can change if we will it hard enough and for long enough. Some older CDs will find that they slowly drifted away and even abandoned their male gender role in order to accommodate and expand their feminine desires. They become increasingly negative and dismissive about masculinity while worshiping the alter of femininity. So there is a slow gradual process in which cds who begin as begin as non-transgendered can turn themselves into transgendered beings - if the will and desire is strong enough. So you can end up with a confusing mixture of crossdressers - some are transgendered, most are not but many are on life paths that will slowly make them so.

[diannecourtney]

If its a duck, call it a duck. To use an expression used by the LGBT's, I have pride in being either. Further a fully attired girl or lady does not cause any "hate" on this male, who can never wait to get into his girlie things.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

If its a duck, call it a duck. To use an expression used by the LGBT's, I have pride in being either. Further a fully attired girl or lady does not cause any "hate" on this male, who can never wait to get into his girlie things.

if it's a duck, and everybody calls it a dog, life can really suck for that duck... i can't believe i just wrote that..

you don't have an internal conflict..the words are just words..labels are just labels..
you know, and you have always known what you are... and you've enjoyed all the benefits of the privilege of being treated in alignment with your own identity...it's a blessing that most people (and ducks) get in life..

[SweetIonis]

If desire is the driving force..."Who" or "What" is doing the desiring?

our own concept of ourselves probably can be influenced by other factors. but regardless of how you or i figures it all out..there is at the bottom an identity that is not changeable by what you or i think about it.. and this core identity is what drives everything..it may or may not be binary, but that identity is basically male or female.

I don't dispute that there is a core identity. Neither do I dispute that it is fundamentally male or female. But if you are putting forward the notion that there is something called identity that can be characterized free of desire, that I dispute. To be clear, the conceptualization of identity, without any desire is meaningless. I really don't think you can differentiate identity, i.e. make a difference between male and female gender without reference to desire. Again desire is what characterizes identity. It's something like saying heat characterizes fire. Furthermore a person can choose to change the label that they put on that identity although, that identity will remain what it is.

Any rate I said all that to say the notion that desire is fundamental does not dispute the notion of a fundamental identity.

[Speck]

I have an opinion on this whole idea of labels that I’d like to share and see how many of you could live with it. These are my beliefs given all I’ve read, heard and seen so far but I hold out for the possibility that my opinion may change as I come to learn more. This is hard to explain so bear with me.

I believe being transgendered is a question of degree rather than you are or you aren’t and I believe a person is transgendered if they experience gender dysphoria but again, gender dysphoria is a question of degree. Let’s take the example someone gave of a tomboy. I believe that while society doesn’t generally slap the transgender label on her, she still experiences dysphoria. A tomboy grows up hating dolls and dresses and likes the things that boys typically like. She grows up wondering why she’s different and depending upon her environment (parents, teachers, and family and friend attitudes) this feeling of being different will cause her a certain degree of dysphoria but I’d suggest it’s mild. Mild enough that she can make some life choices so that her gender identity and her natal sex are at peace. She may find a career in the athletic field, dress girly less frequently than her female friends but in general the dysphoria is manageable.

Now take a natal male who grows up wanting to wear bright colours, doesn’t like sports and is perhaps a bit cerebral and would rather talk about things other than the toilet humour that they boys typically engage in. He wonders why he’s different but again, depending on his environment, this feeling of being different will cause a degree of dysphoria but here again, he may find a career in the arts, dress in terribly unimaginative clothing less frequently than his male friends but in general finds peace between his insides and his outside.

I realize that to describe a tomboy’s experience and the experience of the male counterpart to the tomboy, I’ve used stereo types and generalizations. I actually apologize for that because the older I get the more I wonder if gender isn’t just a grouping of personality traits mixed with hormones and if humans hadn’t created such a divide between the two sexes, we’d all just be people with some physiological differences but nowhere near the generalizations of what it means to be male versus female the way it is in our society today.

Anyway, to go on…now, if you increase the difference between the insides and the outside, this person feels more than the mild dysphoria of a tomboy. The greater the difference between the inside and the outside, the greater the disphoria. When the dysphoria is great enough that it drives someone to wear the clothes of the opposite gender, not out of comfort but specifically to emulate the opposite gender, then I believe that is a transgendered person, albeit a bit more than the tomboy but not so much so that they can’t find peace between their insides and their outsides. They find that peace by crossdressing occasionally and making life choices that enables them to do so easily. Where the insides differ from their outside to a very large extent but not quite opposing each other, you have a person that needs to express their femininity way more frequently and needs to go all the way rather than a few items of female clothes when crossdressing. So naturally, when the insides are completely opposed to their outside, the dysphoria is unmanageable and relief comes in the form of living 24/7 as the gender opposite the one they are born or SRS. Then we call them transsexual.

Now, I’ll go one step further and suggest that there would be no dysphoria at all if everyone could behave any which way they wanted without the pressure of societal norms and SRS would never be needed (might still be desired but not needed). I think I’ve outlined a few different points on the transgender spectrum:

Tomboy = mild dysphoria

Occasional crossdresser = moderate dysphoria

Frequent crossdresser = significant dysphoria

24/7 or SRS = unmanageable dysphoria

Perhaps somewhere between moderate and significant, one might find the dual gender or bi gender.

To me, the tomboy is not transgendered because she is not driven to emulate a man (bind her breasts, apply fake facial hair) but neither is a post-op transsexual because they no longer have dysphoria. So, the label transgender as a term that defines everyone who deliberately changes their appearance to emulate the opposite sex fits as an umbrella term.

Now, as to why TGism appears to be progressive….I’d say that there are many who are far more dysphoric than they’ve allowed themselves to feel either by repressing feelings or denying them and over time, either make progress at becoming honest with themselves or get tired of trying to hide who they really are and start letting down their guard little by little.

I guess what I’m saying is that gender identity is a spectrum, therefore, dysphoria is a spectrum and transgender is a spectrum and the behaviours exhibited are as different as there are points on that spectrum. To further complicate things, our environment also impacts behaviours and trying to unravel nature versus nurture is not possible, at least not yet. Further research is needed but won’t likely happen in my lifetime.

Speck

[SweetIonis]

The desire to emulate is nothing more than the desire to submerge yourself in your fantasy/escapist role-playing where satisfaction is obtained by making the experience as close as possible to reality so that we believe we an have the same experiences as GGs. The role-playing can reach the point where the CD essentially creates a whole new character that he can switch into whenever he wants to escape from his male reality. You could say that crossdressing is the real-life version of the many examples of on-line fantasy role-playing games that many people become seriously addicted to. Instead of immersing yourself into a computer generated character in a fantasy setting, we use ourselves as the canvas and use the real world as the backdrop. You cannot get more immersive than that!

The problem with accepting the above explanation is that it is not very satisfying and sympathetic compared to claiming the reason behind the crossdressing is transgenderism and that we were born this way. It is a hard sell to convince anyone to accept us, especially our SOs, if we were to explain our desire as fantasy role-playing. Even SOs who have accepted their cding partners would not want to depart from the transgendered explanation.

What if it's not something that you can step in and out of. What if it's something that you feel and you can't stop it. It's that what you would call a dysphoria?

There is a further complication. Neither gender nor sexual orientation is set in stone.

I agree with that theoretically. But with respect to gender identity in particular, in some instances it COULD be something that is so difficult to change that it would render that impractical. Actually I agree with Speck. You can conceptualize that thing as some sort of spectrum, and depending on where you start on the spectrum you might be able to move to an area where you would notice some significant difference. But if you are starting from a place located on the extremes, it might be difficult to make it to the other side in a lifetime.

[SweetIonis]

If desire is the driving force..."Who" or "What" is doing the desiring?

our own concept of ourselves probably can be influenced by other factors. but regardless of how you or i figures it all out..there is at the bottom an identity that is not changeable by what you or i think about it.. and this core identity is what drives everything..it may or may not be binary, but that identity is basically male or female..

I have thought about this all day, and this conceptualization is just very flawed. For one to assume that there is a core identity that is basically male or female or some gradation between the two, WITHOUT PROVIDING A WAY TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN such identities is just plain sloppy intellectual work. The second thing is that when you actually try to distinguish between such identities, you can't do so without reference to desire, which implies that DESIRE IS MORE FUNDAMENTAL. The third thing we are still left with the question of WHO POSSESSES THE IDENTITY. And related to that, lastly, that conceptualization makes no provision for the state of sentience, i.e. cognition, the state of being aware.

A conceptualization that would accommodate a discussion of gender identity that avoids all these difficulties is to assume that there are fundamentally two things that we cannot break down into anything more basic, desire and cognition. Furthermore if we assume that cognition is under the influence of an identity THAT IS ATTRIBUTED BY DESIRE (for example like heat is an attribute of fire), then everything else flows in a natural way. This conceptualization neatly deals with the question of "who is desiring" as a well as "who possess the identity". And it allows us to create a taxonomy to classify this identity in terms of male, female, or gradations in between. This was severely lacking in the above conceptualization.

Damn, I meant to respond to another post, but I hit the wrong button!

[Rianna Humble]

I'll go one step further and suggest that there would be no dysphoria at all if everyone could behave any which way they wanted without the pressure of societal norms and SRS would never be needed (might still be desired but not needed).

This is a very pretty theory, but totally ignores the fundamental point that dysphoria comes from having a body which betrays us by developing in the opposite direction to our gender. It is not about behaviour. Gender Identity is not a lifestyle choice, it's about WHO we are, not about what we do.

[Sue101]

She may find a career in the athletic field, dress girly less frequently than her female friends but in general the dysphoria is manageable.

I like that you have thought about tomboys because their behavior is definitely related to ours but I wonder if you have missed an important point, namely why is a tomboy's dysphoria manageable? I would suggest tomboys do not go into the closet and do not seek to emulate men because tomboy behavior is allowable in society. A tomboy is seen as a girl who is not following the rules, a rebel if you may, many think admirable. Tomboys are not considered perverts or weirdos like cders, most parents have little issue with the behavior and there are many role models to look up to. So the dysphoria is manageable because it does not have to be internalized but can in fact be externalized from childhood onwards and simply becomes a natural part of her personality. A tomboy does not have to fantasize about doing male things and hanging around with the lads, she just does it.

Typical cder behavior differs from tomboys because he has to enter the closet for survival. His desire to express femininity can only be channeled through fantasies which means his ideas often become warped into extreme versions of femininity because there are no boundaries. Once in the closet he develops feelings of shame and guilt which he copes with by compartmentalizing his feminine self instead of integrating it into his whole self. His male facade is false because it lacks the feminine component kept secretly under wraps.

I believe that tomboys and cders begin from the same point but end up with quite different behaviors because of the different attitudes toward male and females challenging their gender roles.

I actually apologize for that because the older I get the more I wonder if gender isn’t just a grouping of personality traits mixed with hormones and if humans hadn’t created such a divide between the two sexes, we’d all just be people with some physiological differences but nowhere near the generalizations of what it means to be male versus female the way it is in our society today.

Spot on. When scientists conduct gender tests which remove the social need to conform to gender roles (ie the test subjects think nobody is watching them or can trace their thoughts and actions) then the differences between the genders all but vanishes. Are we pretty much indistinguishable, the differences so minor that they are unnoticeable. It is only when people conform to their expected gender role that noticeable differences appear.

What if it's not something that you can step in and out of. What if it's something that you feel and you can't stop it. It's that what you would call a dysphoria?

Good question. It depends on why you feel you cannot make crossdressing an occasional experience. It is either you are genuinely a transgender person so it is part of your natural personality. However if that was the case then you would have struggled with gender dysphoria on a daily basis throughout your life from the earliest childhood memories onwards. If that describes you then yes you are transgendered.

The other possibility is that you have become addicted to the role-playing so that it has become ingrained into your being. You become what you wish yourself to be. You did not start out transgendered with dysphoria but the compulsion overtook you and dysphoria emerged as you evolved a into transgendered individual by emphasizing your feminine attributes while minimizing your masculine. In this model, if you can stop the compulsion then you might be able to reverse the dysphoria and reestablish a healthy relationship with your masculine side.

But with respect to gender identity in particular, in some instances it COULD be something that is so difficult to change that it would render that impractical.

I agree with most people there is no wiggle room. But I believe that is because of gender conditioning. Everyday we encounter hundreds of situations and bits of information that reinforce gender expectations. People are hemmed into a narrow path which guarantees social acceptance. So most people have no interest whatsoever in altering their gender identity as they willingly accept conformity and the benefits that flow from that. There has to be both desire and willpower to block social pressure to conform so to create your own destiny.

The crossdressing community shows beyond doubt that gender identity can be altered if the need and want are there. I don't think it matters where you start at on the gender spectrum, rather it is where you want to end up at that is important. But the earlier you start out, the more likely you will succeed because you learn to play along with gender conformity rather than accept it as fact resulting in greater free will to decide for yourself.

[LeaP]

I have thought about this all day, and this conceptualization is just very flawed. For one to assume that there is a core identity that is basically male or female or some gradation between the two, WITHOUT PROVIDING A WAY TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN such identities is just plain sloppy intellectual work. The second thing is that when you actually try to distinguish between such identities, you can't do so without reference to desire, which implies that DESIRE IS MORE FUNDAMENTAL. The third thing we are still left with the question of WHO POSSESSES THE IDENTITY. And related to that, lastly, that conceptualization makes no provision for the state of sentience, i.e. cognition, the state of being aware.

A conceptualization that would accommodate a discussion of gender identity that avoids all these difficulties is to assume that there are fundamentally two things that we cannot break down into anything more basic, desire and cognition. Furthermore if we assume that cognition is under the influence of an identity THAT IS ATTRIBUTED BY DESIRE (for example like heat is an attribute of fire), then everything else flows in a natural way. This conceptualization neatly deals with the question of "who is desiring" as a well as "who possess the identity". And it allows us to create a taxonomy to classify this identity in terms of male, female, or gradations in between. This was severely lacking in the above conceptualization.

Great thinking, but I disagree in several respects:

1) Desire doesn't strike me as something fundamental in the way you are using it. Desire changes over time and with circumstances, with maturity and even training. It is easily enhanced, compromised, and manipulated. I don't equate innate drive to desire, but perhaps something closer to this is what you intended? Unfortunately, even this doesn't account for all transgender expression or identity (see my closing sentence).

2) A binary approach seems to accurately describe only a subset of transgender identities. This has been well-discussed on the forum.

3) I don't follow your point on cognition.

At this point, I tend to believe there are multiple, valid explanations for transgender expression, including purely biological, sociological, psycho-sexual, artistic & symbolic, and many others.

Lea

[SweetIonis]

Good question. It depends on why you feel you cannot make crossdressing an occasional experience. It is either you are genuinely a transgender person so it is part of your natural personality. However if that was the case then you would have struggled with gender dysphoria on a daily basis throughout your life from the earliest childhood memories onwards. If that describes you then yes you are transgendered.

The other possibility is that you have become addicted to the role-playing so that it has become ingrained into your being. You become what you wish yourself to be. You did not start out transgendered with dysphoria but the compulsion overtook you and dysphoria emerged as you evolved a into transgendered individual by emphasizing your feminine attributes while minimizing your masculine. In this model, if you can stop the compulsion then you might be able to reverse the dysphoria and reestablish a healthy relationship with your masculine side.

It's not a compulsion, because compulsions are confined to specific behavior. As I said earlier in this thread, there is something called identity that is attributed by desire. In my case it's this identity that is affected, not just a particular behavior. And that identity carries along with it a large set of desires. I have told you before that even from my first experience with cross dressing, I didn't just desire to be a female, I felt like I was a female. And there is a big difference. I know what a fantasy is, and believe me, my experience is not like that. I think you are right on mark however about the dysphoria evolving.

It's funny that I never really seriously considered I could have such a dysphoria because that would make me a transsexual. And while I could empathize which much that the transsexuals I had come in contact with up until VERY recently had to say, I know I don't experience an overt physical attraction for men and I never had that constant experience when I was younger as you pointed out. However, I was really stunned when I read the work of a few experts who pointed out that they were treating people who, just like me, did not really have that type of experience as a child. And that there were quite a few transsexuals who experience, exactly what I feel, and don't experience any attraction for men. Especially, I thought that all transsexuals desire men. So there it is likely that I could actually be a transsexual, but it's something that I think an expert would have to evaluate. If that's so, it's so, if not that's fine too. I am what I am in that regard. But if I am, I just don't see how some sort of transition is in the cards for me, as I can't give up my career and at this point don't want to see my life turned upside down. I will just have to live with the dysphoria IF that's what it really is, and that is not clear at this point.

I agree with most people there is no wiggle room. But I believe that is because of gender conditioning. Everyday we encounter hundreds of situations and bits of information that reinforce gender expectations. People are hemmed into a narrow path which guarantees social acceptance. So most people have no interest whatsoever in altering their gender identity as they willingly accept conformity and the benefits that flow from that. There has to be both desire and willpower to block social pressure to conform so to create your own destiny.

The crossdressing community shows beyond doubt that gender identity can be altered if the need and want are there. I don't think it matters where you start at on the gender spectrum, rather it is where you want to end up at that is important. But the earlier you start out, the more likely you will succeed because you learn to play along with gender conformity rather than accept it as fact resulting in greater free will to decide for yourself.

I am running out of time and I want to deal with something else here. I will briefly state that Columbus had the right idea. It's possible to sail to India from Western Europe by heading west. What he didn't realize was how big the world was. I think that's the problem Sue. Perhaps I will come back to this later and say more.

Great thinking, but I disagree in several respects:

1) Desire doesn't strike me as something fundamental in the way you are using it. Desire changes over time and with circumstances, with maturity and even training. It is easily enhanced, compromised, and manipulated. I don't equate innate drive to desire, but perhaps something closer to this is what you intended? Unfortunately, even this doesn't account for all transgender expression or identity (see my closing sentence).

Thanks for the thoughtful response Lea. I will try to deal with your objections point by point. Let me deal with this first one by bringing some clarity into this conceptualization of identity. As I said, identity can be conceptualized as an object that is attributed by desire. Perhaps though, it can better be thought of as an object where a large set of desires have combined to form and revolve around a central concept. It's similar to a large organic compound that consists of atoms of many different types. The atoms are analogous to the various desires and the identity itself is analogous to the compound as a whole.

Perhaps that helps.

2) A binary approach seems to accurately describe only a subset of transgender identities. This has been well-discussed on the forum.

The beauty of this model is that it readily adapts to the concept of non-binary gender identity. In fact I think the possibility of a non binary gender identity flows naturally as a result of the conceptualization that various desires comprise a gender identity.

3) I don't follow your point on cognition.

I think that we cannot deal with any of these questions properly unless we try to give an account on the state of sentience. In other words there is a sentient being, something that is aware that it exists, that is experiencing all these things. Here, I have postulated that cognition, the state of being aware, exists fundamentally and can't be broken down into anything more fundamental. It is being put forward as something that is there, that is self evident, axiomatic. The same thing with desire. It's just like in Newtonian physics, it is postulated without proof that force and mass exist. And by assuming these things exist fundamentally, we can then proceed to explain various types of phenomenon. Mathematics or ANY BRANCH OF KNOWLEDGE works in a similar fashion, YOU HAVE TO ASSUME SOME BASIC THINGS ARE TRUE, and then you proceed to explain other things.

At this point, I tend to believe there are multiple, valid explanations for transgender expression, including purely biological, sociological, psycho-sexual, artistic & symbolic, and many others.

Lea

I don't dispute that Lea. And thanks for pointing that out. I am just putting forward what I feel offers a good way of viewing the subject matter.

[Joanne f]

The thing is where do you actually draw the line and say that someone is transgender, apart from the two extreme ends (very masculin or very feminine feelings) there is hell of a lot inbetween that could be normal male or female feelings that will not make you transgender, i personaly know i am transgender as my feminine feelings go more than half way but then what would most call half way , maybe it is disisre one thing more that the other.

[SweetIonis]

Now, I’ll go one step further and suggest that there would be no dysphoria at all if everyone could behave any which way they wanted without the pressure of societal norms and SRS would never be needed (might still be desired but not needed).

I don't know about that. I dysphoria would still be there, it just might not to be as difficult to manage.

[Kate Simmons]

That statement in itself is stereotypical. Simply expressing being one's self doesn't fall into any category and never will.

[SweetIonis]

What statement are you refering to Abigail?