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Thread: Are All Crossdressers Transgendered

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    Member SweetIonis's Avatar
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    Are All Crossdressers Transgendered

    I was just having are rather long conversation with someone I know who is very active in the LGBT rights movement. According to this person, crossdressers, regardless of their gender identity, fall under the Transgender portion of the LGBT community because they are engaged in defying gender stereotypes with regards to dressing.

    Is this true? Do you agree with this assessment?
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    Member Starr's Avatar
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    i have to agree from my own point of view... but i have also read on here where several other CDer's refer to transgender being an umbrella term covering all CD, TV, and TS

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    Crossdressing is a form of transgenderism. It is probably the lightest version of transgenderism there is.
    That is how it seems to be looked at from anthropological perspective. There are degrees of transgenderism you could say.
    First Degree: Crossdressing
    Second Degree: goes beyond crossdressing to questioning one's identity and possibly orientation. They undergo counseling and in some cases may seek hormonal treatments.
    Third Degree: goes beyond the first and second and actively seeks SRS.

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    Senior Age Member sissystephanie's Avatar
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    Starr is correct. Transgender is really an umbrella term coined by the media, and covers virtually everybody who does anything that crosses gender boundaries. So under that definition crossdressers do fall under the Transgender envelope! I am definitely a male, but I do wear feminine clothes much of the time as a Crossdresser!! So I am a Transgender!! I will add that I hate labels, and just prefer to be ME!!
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    new girl in town cassandra54's Avatar
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    i have read similar things and would have to agree in a general sense. there is growing consent among professionals and lay people that people who cross dress are transgender. although as you'll find on this site that people who cross dress do it in many different ways. some like myself go all out and want to spend part of their life living as a woman. some just wear lingerie around the house and never go out of the house. Some are gay, some are bisexual, some live alone and some live with a SO. Some people are lucky to have an SO that knows about our feminine ways and some do it behind their backs. I don't know what the percentages are, but do some research and take this thing called the COAGTI test. I consider myself a no-op transgender, since I live part-time as a woman and will be going out in public as Cassandra. However I think the term needs to be qualified as to the degree at which one is involved, for example, one might be TG curious. Just remember just as with ones sexuality, sensuality, eroticism, and sexual persuasion, everyone has different boundaries and perceptions of what they are or are not. Labels are a good starting point for describing yourself. For example if you were talking about your car, you would state the year, make and model. There may be modifications to car which might make it one of a kind but still it is essentially that particular year, make and model. Don't know if this helps or not.

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    Full-Time Duality NathalieX66's Avatar
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    I see myself falling under the umbrella of the term transgendered.

    I was out fully en femme at a shopping mall today, not to mention a couple of stand alone shoes stores. Yeah, besides being s a crossdresser, what am I?

    I also know that there are folks who are transsexual, and those who see themselves as transsexual, and they don't like the fact that crossdressers identify as transgender. My response is this: you have your own label.......it's transsexual. Maybe you don't like how the word sounds but it is what it is. That's what you are. There is no exclusive ownership of the word transgender from any one group, we are all gender variants to some degree or another.

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    Member Sophie_C's Avatar
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    The 'T' originally stood for simply Trans', NOT 'Transgender'. That's how it encompassed both Trans-vestites and Trans-gendered people. The wiki says it means transgendered, but I don't think that's accurate. Anyway, I think labels make people get confused and box themselves in corners they aren't really comfortable in, so there's no need to focus on it, at all.

    I just want to be sure the LGBT community does not conveniently forget the trans side of things, as has OFTEN happened (especially in civil rights), since the entire start of the movement was done, in a large part by trans girls at Stonewall. If I'm not mistaken, half of the people there were transvestites or transgendered. Somehow, a whole bunch of laws seem to drop it to be only LGB. But, that's enough of going on a tangent...
    Last edited by Sophie_C; 09-03-2011 at 10:21 PM.

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    Member SweetIonis's Avatar
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    If ALL crossdressers are transgendered, that would imply that a person's dress determines their gender identity.
    Last edited by SweetIonis; 09-03-2011 at 10:31 PM.
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    Member Sophie_C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SweetIonis View Post
    If ALL crossdressers are transgendered, that would imply that a persons dress determines their gender identity.
    That's a good part of the reason I am not a fan of using the word 'transsexual'. It confuses people to thing that it's sexuality, not gender identity (between your legs vs between your ears). It should be transgender or crossdresser, that way people can more immediately get "oh, it's gender identity" or "oh, it's a sexual inclination, like a fetish."

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    Silver Member Marissa's Avatar
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    Are all crossdressers transgendered? Yes, as defined by the umbrella effect But I agree with the other girls above on statements of labels..our individuality

    If dressig as a woman (women's attire as defined by society..lol..) for a few hours either to stay home or go out..to fullfill a fetish or a pleasurable desire..or whatever reason a person chooses.. without even at times wondering what label they fit under.. its just fun

    Thank you girls for the great explainations..

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    Member SweetIonis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sophie_C View Post
    That's a good part of the reason I am not a fan of using the word 'transsexual'. It confuses people to thing that it's sexuality, not gender identity (between your legs vs between your ears). It should be transgender or crossdresser, that way people can more immediately get "oh, it's gender identity" or "oh, it's a sexual inclination, like a fetish."
    EXACTLY!! I argued with that person quite a while on this point.
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    Usually, "transgendered" is meant to encompass both TV and TS, but mostly it seems to depend on the context and the target audience. Sometimes it is used as a "polite" or "PC" term for TS.

    As an example, today I was in a local coffee shop and saw a flyer for something called "GLBT - Out for Health". While "transgender" and only "transgender" was used in the flyer, it was probably not strictly referring to all "transgender", and that it was not intended to include an occasional heterosexual TV in its scope (I was bored and looked at their site, and it only had information on gay and bi dressers, covered by the "GB" already, and TS issues.) That is all fine of course, it is just an example of how "transgender" is sometimes used.
    Last edited by Vickie_CDTV; 09-04-2011 at 05:10 AM.

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    *Kisses and Best Wishes* Wendy_Marie's Avatar
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    in the broadest sense and using the loosest definition of the terms transgender I suppose I can see the reasoning behind such a statement.

    My definitions differ in that a CD doesn't identify themselves as a Female perse' but as a male who enjoys wearing female clothing...where a Transgender is the tired old classic "Woman trapped in a males body."
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    What is normal anyway? Rianna Humble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wendy_Marie View Post
    in the broadest sense and using the loosest definition of the terms transgender I suppose I can see the reasoning behind such a statement.

    My definitions differ in that a CD doesn't identify themselves as a Female perse' but as a male who enjoys wearing female clothing...where a Transgender is the tired old classic "Woman trapped in a males body."
    It can help to look at what the words mean

    There are two parts to TG - Trans (crossing) and Gender (self explanatory)
    There are also two parts to TS - Trans (crossing) Sexual (referring in this case to the physical sexual characteristics)
    There are also two parts to cross-dressing - Cross (as in Trans) and dressing (as in what you do).

    Cross-Dressing also crosses the norms of Gender behaviour and is therefore rightly classed as a transgender actitivty. I am fully aware that people have different reasons for cross-dressing, but whatever their reason they are still crossing the accepted norms of gender behaviour.

    Transsexuals (like myself) have a gender that does not conform to our physical sexual characteristics, so we are also transgender

    However, it is wrong to confine the term Transgender to only those of us who are transsexuals because the word describes both behaviour and identity

    This kind of restriction comes close to the example that we learn when first taught about syllogism: "All dogs are animals, cats are animals therefore cats must be dogs". Yes it is true that transsexuals are transgender, that does not mean that all transgender folk are transsexual.
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    Silver Member Tina B.'s Avatar
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    Trapped in a womens body, is a transsexual, not a transgendered person. Trans means to cross, as in trans Atlantic flights, and things like that. Gender, I think we all know what that means. Put them together and you have crossing genders. all the rest of the meaning, people have added on, it's just politics. If you cross that line, even now and then, you are transgendered, and I don't see what the problem with the word is, it's not a gun, and it won't hurt you, but if you walk in heels, you belong on this side of that line. Inside of that line, you have the whole bunch of us, cross dressers, Transvestites, transsexuals, fetish dressers, girly boys, Sissy's, and anyone I might have missed, that play across the gender lines. It's time to stop fearing a word that is just a general description of people with a gender kink of some kind. It's only a bad thing, if you think it is.
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    Last edited by Tina B.; 09-04-2011 at 06:52 AM.
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    *Kisses and Best Wishes* Wendy_Marie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rianna Humble View Post
    It can help to look at what the words mean

    There are two parts to TG - Trans (crossing) and Gender (self explanatory)
    There are also two parts to TS - Trans (crossing) Sexual (referring in this case to the physical sexual characteristics)
    There are also two parts to cross-dressing - Cross (as in Trans) and dressing (as in what you do).

    Cross-Dressing also crosses the norms of Gender behaviour and is therefore rightly classed as a transgender actitivty. I am fully aware that people have different reasons for cross-dressing, but whatever their reason they are still crossing the accepted norms of gender behaviour.

    Transsexuals (like myself) have a gender that does not conform to our physical sexual characteristics, so we are also transgender

    However, it is wrong to confine the term Transgender to only those of us who are transsexuals because the word describes both behaviour and identity

    This kind of restriction comes close to the example that we learn when first taught about syllogism: "All dogs are animals, cats are animals therefore cats must be dogs". Yes it is true that transsexuals are transgender, that does not mean that all transgender folk are transsexual.
    There have been so many threads dealing with the terminology and none of them ever seem to accomplish much of anything....Let's just say that this is an argument of semantics and while we seem to actually agree on the issue, our interpretations differ somewhat.

    I think the originator of the abbreviation LGBT just felt it wasn't conducive to brevity to include a letter for every sexual variant...othwerwise the abbreviation in and of itself would read like a phone book.

    People dislike vaugeness and attempt to pigeonhole everyone into a nice neat category...so basically anyone who doesn't conform to what has been determined as normal dress for your physical appearance and birth gender by society....are simply labeled as trans...
    Last edited by Wendy_Marie; 09-04-2011 at 07:05 AM. Reason: spell
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  17. #17
    Member SweetIonis's Avatar
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    Here's a something from Wikipedia regarding gender:

    "Gender is a range of characteristics distinguishing between male and female, particularly in the cases of men and women and the masculine and feminine attributes assigned to them. Depending on the context, the discriminating characteristics vary from sex to social role to gender identity."

    How we label things is a large factor in how those things are conceptualized in the mind, particularly in persons who do not take the time to examine the subject matter closely. I have noticed that biological males that crossdress who consider their gender identity to be male, despise being thought of as a guy who thinks he is a female.

    Because the word "gender" is used in the context of making a differentiation between male and female, to apply the term "transgender" to a biological male that crossdresses, but considers his gender identity to be male, mistakenly implies that the person is a male who is female.
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    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    over the years my own thinking on this has evolved.. transgender can be viewed as a behaviour or an identity as rianna points out..

    so when a crossdresser says i am transgender, its a behaviour, and as a transsexual it is most certainly an identity... so ts people sometimes get upset when crossdressers say they are transgendered...and cd's get feelings hurt when ts people say they are not tg...

    add to this mix that most of us feel a sexual component in dressing, that a number of crossdressers are trannsexuals that are either in a denial/confused/shamed/scared frame of mind, that many crossdressers construct complete female identities as a behaviour,
    its a nice recipe for threads...

    marv albert is caught in fishnets and female dom gear.... clearly that's sex, clearly thats crossdressing, is he transgendered? probably not, ..he's engaging in transgender behavior...and as a transsexual i have a vested interest in people understanding that what he was doing is nothing like what I AM... that doesn't mean i've never had fishnets on...it means that whether i wear fishnets and stilettos in my sex life is nobodies business....

    i imagine most people don't care as much as many of us do what these words mean as we all do, so we are all faced with situations where we see the words used in a way we may not like or agree with...

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    One Perky Goth Gurl Pythos's Avatar
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    Here is a more important question...

    Is there anything wrong with this term being used.

    I personally cannot see a problem. It is a litteral term for crossing gender norms....woman did it years and years ago, in both style and life...it is about time men did as well.
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    Silver Member Babeba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sophie_C View Post
    That's a good part of the reason I am not a fan of using the word 'transsexual'. It confuses people to thing that it's sexuality, not gender identity (between your legs vs between your ears). It should be transgender or crossdresser, that way people can more immediately get "oh, it's gender identity" or "oh, it's a sexual inclination, like a fetish."

    I think that you may have the definition of transsexual not quite right. It does not refer to sexuality or sexual inclination, it refers to how the biological sex of a person does not match the gender of the person. I think of it as being a physical birth defect.

    Someone who dresses for sexual inclination or just because it 'feels good' - that to me is a fetishistic crossdresser or a fetishistic transvestite. Sometimes that person is a guy in a dress.

    Other people who fit into the transgender umbrella (and cross traditional gender expression lines) are people who are dual gender, bigender, genderfluid and genderqueer. Some people have very high levels of both male and female gender. Some people have very low levels. Some people have one gender that exerts itself more at different times. I wouldn't say that it is a spectrum - one is not just a continuation of another, although sometimes when a person has a hard time coming to terms with who they truly are it is easier to just put on the clothes and not examine things more deeply.


    This might be a bit weird of me to think and to say, but - if we were to widen out transgender - crossing gender norms - to people who have crossed out and rewritten their perceptions of gender to make them best accept what and who other people are? Then I hope someday we are ALL trans.
    Last edited by Babeba; 09-04-2011 at 10:57 AM.

  21. #21
    Silver Member Inna's Avatar
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    There is always a bit of a gray area in any defining terminology. Take for instance simply face value of CROSSDRESSER label.

    If a guy makes a joke and dresses as a prostitute on Halloween night just for a prank and wears such clothing without the slightest internal desire, then is he a crossdresser by definition or is he just wearing a costume which at this point happens to be feminine.

    I think that the term crossdresser is really a new wrapping on the old term transvestite which means gender-dysmorphic and wearing clothing as an expression of internal desire.

    So if crossdresser means self expression then yes it also means transgender!

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    Member SweetIonis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele View Post
    over the years my own thinking on this has evolved.. transgender can be viewed as a behaviour or an identity as rianna points out..

    so when a crossdresser says i am transgender, its a behaviour, and as a transsexual it is most certainly an identity... so ts people sometimes get upset when crossdressers say they are transgendered...and cd's get feelings hurt when ts people say they are not tg...

    marv albert is caught in fishnets and female dom gear.... clearly that's sex, clearly thats crossdressing, is he transgendered? probably not, ..he's engaging in transgender behavior...and as a transsexual i have a vested interest in people understanding that what he was doing is nothing like what I AM

    i imagine most people don't care as much as many of us do what these words mean as we all do, so we are all faced with situations where we see the words used in a way we may not like or agree with...
    Some nice points Kaitlyn. Here I think you have hit on the essence of the problem as I see it. I have seen MANY threads here that center on the notion that CDs who feel that there gender identity is male, despise it when they are lumped in with CDs who project a feminine sexual personna. And of course you have brought forward other situations where persons feel they are being mistakenly labeled. I suppose my point is that by choosing the nomenclature Transgender to apply to such a broad group, those involved in the LGBT rights movement are contributing to persons becoming misidentified with activity that they do not want to be associated with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Babeba View Post
    I think that you may have the definition of transsexual not quite right. It does not refer to sexuality or sexual inclination, it refers to how the biological sex of a person does not match the gender of the person..
    I think you misinterpreted what was said. Here's the exact quote:

    "It confuses people to thing that it's sexuality, not gender identity (between your legs vs between your ears)."

    Sophie_C said that it CONFUSES people to think that it's sexuality, not that it is sexuality.
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    Member SweetIonis's Avatar
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    According to the Catholics! LMAO!!!
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    SO to GG Missa Miss Maxine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SweetIonis View Post
    According to the Catholics! LMAO!!!
    Hahahaha! High five!
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