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Thread: Ever wonder why a disproportinate number of trans girls are lesbian?

  1. #26
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    April, I heard also read somewhere that it is about 33% Heterosexual, 33% Lesbian, 33% Bisexual
    or Asexual for trans-women as well. I will see if I can locate where I read that and confirm it.

  2. #27
    Silver Member AKAMichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melody Moore View Post
    Chloe - transition for me has nothing to do with my sexuality - if anything I used my sexuality as an excuse
    to avoid transition. I use to believe that I wasn't a transsexual because I liked women - some transsexuals
    struggle with the notion they are trans just because they are not attracted to men. There are a number of
    people I have met on this forum and in my own group that went through this as well.
    I know this has been one of my stumbling blocks for years. I think the key to the question is that your sexual orientation just doesn't change. I don't think you switch to liking guys just because you are transitioning. But I do believe that it is an obstacle at least in my mind to moving forward any further.
    Michelle

  3. #28
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    Well, well, well, looky here at what I just found over on TSRoadmap.com - this certainly refutes all of Kate's theories.

    http://www.tsroadmap.com/sexuality/annie-sexuality.html

    Last edited by Melody Moore; 09-26-2011 at 05:57 PM.

  4. #29
    Quietly making noise Torrey's Avatar
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    Most of the pre op women I know lose their BF after SRS go figure that one out .
    My thought on this is that the BF is likely gay, and he cannot rationalize changing teams, as it were. The TS is effectively asking him to go into a straight relationship, SRS notwithstanding.
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  5. #30
    Julie's pet. ;) Andrea85's Avatar
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    This is just my personal experience, so take it with a grain of salt.

    For me, I struggled with the idea of being with guys, but not in the sense of not wanting to change teams. The social conditioning I got when I was young taught me I should be with women, not men. I always liked guys and didn't even date my first woman till I was 19. That's only because I would have rather dated a man, but Seymour was a rather anti-gay area then.

    Also, I do frequent some of the LBGT places that are local, and other than drag queens and just plain gay guys, most tras women date men, and mainly straight men. I personally would stay single before I got with a woman or gay guy. But no worries there for me cause I have me a nice muscly and tattooed straight guy as a boyfriend already.

  6. #31
    Silver Member kellycan27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKAMichelle View Post
    I know this has been one of my stumbling blocks for years. I think the key to the question is that your sexual orientation just doesn't change. I don't think you switch to liking guys just because you are transitioning. But I do believe that it is an obstacle at least in my mind to moving forward any further.
    Some do, but i think it's more the exception than the rule. I know a couple of TS girls who changed teams after transitioning. Maybe it was always there.. who knows?
    "one day I'll fly away..... leave all this to yesterday"

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    I think the reason is HOMOPHOBIA.

    Even with a vagina a transitioned MtF still has to deal with a lifetime of anti-gay propaganda. The thought of being with a MAN may just be too much to bear.

    Becoming a lesbian means this man on man issue can be ignored and not worked through.

    S

  8. #33
    Julie's pet. ;) Andrea85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kellycan27 View Post
    This I can understand and it may well go back to some of Kate's points. ( a little off topic here) While I don't really see a moral obligation to disclose my status, I have found that if I meet someone who I am attracted to I will tell them up front. They may run or they may give it a go. I'd rather have them haul ass in the beginning, than some time after I have invested myself. Personally I would feel a lot safer, and a lot more comfortable if he knew up front. Casual dating... They( in my personal opinion).. need not know, but if I am interested (even from the start) for me the best rule of thumb is to lay my cards on the table. Not saying mine is the best or only way... just my way.
    Now.. back to your regular scheduled programming.

    (Read as in past tense.. I am married now and no longer dealing with this) lol

    Not just your way there. I do that too. Whether the other person in the situation considers it this or not, to me it's just a lie if it isn't told up front. Why even risk basing a relationship off a lie? Even on the dating sites I was on till my bf got together, my screen name was always t_girl_Andrea, and the first thing in my about me was I was pre-op trans woman. Pretty straight forward, and I was registered as female. Met a lot of good, straight guys that wanted a real relationship that way, but none met up to my ridiculous standards, except the love of my life. it was a good plan that got me a muscly retired air force sniper/ex cop/mma fighter covered in tattoos.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKAMichelle View Post
    I know this has been one of my stumbling blocks for years. I think the key to the question is that your sexual orientation just doesn't change. I don't think you switch to liking guys just because you are transitioning. But I do believe that it is an obstacle at least in my mind to moving forward any further.
    Quote Originally Posted by kellycan27 View Post
    Some do, but i think it's more the exception than the rule. I know a couple of TS girls who changed teams after transitioning. Maybe it was always there.. who knows?
    It's not a change in sexuality. Just like an MTF was never really a man... she just lied to herself and pretended that she was a man, some people were never straight (or gay, or whatever), they just tried to be.

    When we start questioning ourselves, such as questioning our gender, we start questioning other things too, like our sexuality. If we were hiding from who we really are, are we also hiding from what we really like?

    I questioned my sexuality first, and when I found out that I liked guys, I questioned other things. Turns out when I started asking myself the right questions, I realized I wasn't the man I was trying to be. Just like I wasn't attracted to girls like I tried to be.

  10. #35
    Silver Member kellycan27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bree_K View Post
    It's not a change in sexuality. Just like an MTF was never really a man... she just lied to herself and pretended that she was a man, some people were never straight (or gay, or whatever), they just tried to be.

    When we start questioning ourselves, such as questioning our gender, we start questioning other things too, like our sexuality. If we were hiding from who we really are, are we also hiding from what we really like?

    I questioned my sexuality first, and when I found out that I liked guys, I questioned other things. Turns out when I started asking myself the right questions, I realized I wasn't the man I was trying to be. Just like I wasn't attracted to girls like I tried to be.
    Whether or not she "realized".. It was to at least her a change in her sexual preference. Prior to her transition she had never had a desire to be with men, nor had been. She was attracted to girls, and how can you "hide" what it is from .. yourself? Seems to me one would have to experience something before they could decide if they like it or not. just sayin.
    Last edited by kellycan27; 09-26-2011 at 07:15 PM.
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  11. #36
    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bree_K View Post
    It's not a change in sexuality. Just like an MTF was never really a man... she just lied to herself and pretended that she was a man, some people were never straight (or gay, or whatever), they just tried to be.

    When we start questioning ourselves, such as questioning our gender, we start questioning other things too, like our sexuality. If we were hiding from who we really are, are we also hiding from what we really like?

    I questioned my sexuality first, and when I found out that I liked guys, I questioned other things. Turns out when I started asking myself the right questions, I realized I wasn't the man I was trying to be. Just like I wasn't attracted to girls like I tried to be.

    Hey I lied to myself about my gender, i might as well have lied about my sexuality...

    top that with a dose of learned homophobia, and you have one scrambled egg....

    i can't tell you how many dates i left at the doorstep, thinking to myself how she wasn't interested
    i know many of you know what i was thinking as i "performed" the act...

    but the next morning, in my mind, i was just like any other straight guy

  12. #37
    Silver Member Starling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katesback View Post
    ...the disproportinate number of TS girls that identify as lesbian....

    ...that dream is often shattered with the sad fact that there are VERY few decent men...

    ...virtually no straight man wants a woman with a penis...

    ...decent straight men want a woman. That excludes anything but a woman...

    ...lesbians are less likely to reject a TS girl than a straight man is. Who wants to deal with rejection?...
    Kate, I have some points to raise with your premise:

    A very large majority of people with male bodies are attracted to people with female bodies. The population of TS women is virtually 100% people with male bodies. Don't know much about biology, but that's a powerful predictor right there.

    I used to believe that women became lesbians because they were disgusted or rejected by men. Since then, I've met some lesbians and realized that they were so because they were actually attracted to women.

    The statement about no man wanting a woman with a penis is refuted by the biographies of some of the members here. Unless by "virtually no man," you really mean "most men."

    "Decent straight men want a woman." In this context, what do you mean by "decent"?

    Finally, I have learned that many lesbians suspect GMs who identify themselves as TS women of being sexual predators, so while the lesbian population may be less likely to reject us, they are not necessarily pushovers for a pretty FFS.

    I respect your field experience with trantitioning TS folk, Kate, but it doesn't guarantee you are free from your own biases when extrapolating.

    Lallie
    Time for a change.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephenie S View Post
    I think the reason is HOMOPHOBIA.
    How can HOMOPHOBIA even be considered as a reason to support Kate's claim Stephanie
    when the figures I have just post here clearly prove that lesbians are the minority in the
    trans-community. The greatest majority is clearly made heterosexuals and bisexuals that
    don't have any homophobia. I am not homophobic, but I am reluctant to get involved with
    a man because I want to be sure it is for all the right reasons and that the person loves me
    and supports me for the person I am. Homophobia plays little part in this at all for most of us.

  14. #39
    Psyco Roller Derby Doll. Katesback's Avatar
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    Speaking of changing teams. I never ever had any interest in men prior to the hormones taking hold of me. At that point for reasons I cannot explain I do like men. With that said I find that I had little patience with the bullshit men put forth and so I have become happy being single. Lesbians have hit on me often and I have even dated women but my experience is that most lesbians are nuts and there is a missing part.... So I casually look for a great guy but I dont look hard.
    Last edited by Katesback; 09-27-2011 at 09:46 PM. Reason: Removed reference to sex toy, this is not allowed on the forum

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by kellycan27 View Post
    Seems to me one would have to experience something before they could decide if they like it or not. just sayin.
    You can know you like something because you are attracted to it. When you're in your teens and thinking about asking someone out on a date, you don't pick a girl and a guy so you can see which you like. You know what you like and you either hide from it or go for it. I'm not disagreeing with you entirely, but I think attraction plays a major role. I was never attracted to girls but I still went out with them and convinced myself that that was "liking" girls.

    For me, I unearthed a lot about myself by challenging myself and asking myself questions. I started going out with guys because I knew I wanted to be with one, and I finally admitted that I just wasn't happy with girls. I always had crushes on guys, was always disappointed when they weren't as close of "friends" as I wanted to be. Hell, I even fooled around pretty heavy with a guy before I ever dated any girls, but still convinced myself I didn't like guys. I was very good at repressing my true feelings. The mind is a very complicated thing.
    Last edited by Bree-asaurus; 09-26-2011 at 08:08 PM.

  16. #41
    Silver Member Kathryn Martin's Avatar
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    I think that there are a number of reasons why in the transgender world there are a disproportionately higher number of "lesbians". I have all of my life been attracted to both men and women. I have acted on both attractions. I have ended up finding my life companion in a woman. I am not giving up the love of my life just because I am attracted to men also.

    7% is the approximate number of actual lesbians in the general population.

    The higher number of lesbians in transgender world is rooted in the fact that not every transgender person is a transsexual. Gender variance as a condition is completely different from transsexualism. The fundamental premise of transsexualism is that you must change you physical sex to obtain the closest approximation to congruence with the female form and biology that is available. The person is born in a sex opposite to the one they perceive themselves in. Those people will with the exception of the 7% mentioned above and a percentage of bi-sexual persons be heterosexual to their perceived sex.

    People with gender variance are a completely different matter. They travel the boundaries of the gender divide but are not transsexual. Many will present as female but do not want to change their sex. That is their prerogative but it means that they are not transsexuals. The number of gender variant people who believe they are transsexuals is astonishing because it appears to confer some classification on them that really is not theirs. Among those gender variant people there are a disproportionate higher number of persons presenting as women who are solely attracted to women. The sad part is that instead of owning what they are namely gender variant many perform incredible acts of mental twisting to arrive at a point where they are lesbians, when in fact they are gender variant heterosexuals, very often not wanting to change their anatomy to be congruent.

    No manner of name calling and attempts to discredit this will change it.

    This is really an interesting conversation because it illuminates an issue that has been on my mind for a long time.
    "Never forget the many ways there are to be human" (The Transsexual Taboo)

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathryn Martin View Post
    The higher number of lesbians in transgender world is rooted in the fact that not every transgender person is a transsexual. Gender variance as a condition is completely different from transsexualism. The fundamental premise of transsexualism is that you must change you physical sex to obtain the closest approximation to congruence with the female form and biology that is available. The person is born in a sex opposite to the one they perceive themselves in. Those people will with the exception of the 7% mentioned above and a percentage of bi-sexual persons be heterosexual to their perceived sex.
    Thank you Kathryn for that because that is something else that needs to be clarified, are
    we talking about the whole transgender spectrum or just the transsexual variants here?

    I can see that there are male to female crossdressers here for example who primarily
    identify as male but engage in a transvestic fetish as a "lesbian female role", so these
    should not be included if we are talking specifically about transsexual women who wish
    to undergo gender transition. But the figures I posted showed heterosexual trans women
    held the greatest majority and I believe these figures also relate to transsexual women.

  18. #43
    Senior Member Debglam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kellycan27 View Post
    Might one's sexual orientation from the get go have something to do with this? We all know that gender and sexuality are two different things.......... Not everyone who transitions automatically changes teams.
    It seems like some of us don't!

  19. #44
    Just Kate Kaitlyn26's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katesback View Post
    Speaking of changing teams. I never ever had any interest in men prior to the hormones taking hold of me. At that point for reasons I cannot explain I do like men. With that said I find that I had little patience with the bullshit men put forth and so I have become happy being single. Lesbians have hit on me often and I have even dated women but my experience is that most lesbians are nuts and there is a missing part that even a toy wont take care of. So I casually look for a great guy but I dont look hard.
    Sounds like you need to meet some good people. And stop bashing someone or something just because it hasn't worked out for you, yet.
    Last edited by Sandra; 09-27-2011 at 12:32 PM. Reason: Removed reference about sex toy from quote as this is not allowed.
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  20. #45
    Senior Member pamela_a's Avatar
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    I don't know of any studies although those posted earlier are very enlightening. I can speak to my own personal experiences however.

    Before I transitioned I was married twice and felt no attraction to males. After I was widowed and my transition progressed I discovered I was much more attracted to males than females. What I cannot say is if this was as a result of the HRT and transitioning or whether transitioning allowed me to accept and understand that I was always attracted to men.

    I now look at my current situation. I'm post op and am just another woman. I quit being trans shortly after my name and marker was changed over a year ago. I recently met a man that I was very attracted to. I knew he was TG and after our second date we discussed his need to transition. Our third date I met her and struggled with what to do. I identified as a heterosexual female and was attracted to men, not women. How could I pursue this relationship and stay true to what I knew about myself? Thankfully I have some very insightful friends.
    While talking to one of them she reminded me of what I'd told her I was looking for when I first started dating; someone who loves me at least as much as I love them. I was looking for that special person. What was outside didn't matter, only the person they were. Since then our feelings for each other have only grown stronger and I've never been happier in my life.

    But to bring this back to the question, what am I? I'm in love with someone who is pre-op so, since she's still "male bodied" does that mean I'm straight? Am I lesbian because she's full time and identifies as being only female? Maybe that makes me Bi because I love both? Does it really matter at all? Personally I don't care if I'm straight, lesbian, or bi. The only thing that matters to me is how much I love this wonderful person who has brought so much love and happiness into my life, and how much she loves me.
    Last edited by pamela_a; 09-27-2011 at 12:16 AM.
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  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by niya blake View Post
    Here is some thing to think about too. Most of the pre op women I know lose their BF after SRS go figure that one out .
    most of the guys i've talked to lose their TS GF once she has the surgery, a few of which were paid for by the BF. LOL. They all said the same thing she left them for a younger model! Guess the new equipment required more stamina ; )

  22. #47
    Never knows best Amber99's Avatar
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    Well for me personally I have always liked women and I just don't find anything attractive about men at all. I don't see that changing at all as I transition. I'm 6 months on hormones and it hasn't changed that fact so far lol.

    I think much more MtF's are lesbian than non-trans women because of the influence of their male biology during puberty.
    Last edited by Amber99; 09-28-2011 at 04:08 PM.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katesback View Post
    Add to the mix that fact that a lot of TS women do not escape trannyland so they remain a tranny regardless of having had SRS or not. Once again decent straight men want a woman. That excludes anything but a woman.

    Finally lets face it, lesbians are less likely to reject a TS girl than a straight man is. Who wants to deal with rejection?
    First of all, every TS woman is a 'tranny' regardless of whether they have this fiction of 'escaping trannyland' or not.

    Secondly, what makes you think that lesbians want a girl with girl parts any less than men? In fact, I don't think you can call a relationship with a transwoman and a natal woman a lesbian relationship at all. Queer, certainly, but not lesbian.

    And finally, what makes you think lesbians are less likely to reject a TS girl than a straight man? What's this based on?



    In any case, obviously the fact that male to female transsexuals are more likely to be socialized as men than natal women in a hetero-sexist society would probably have a lot to do with sexual preferences and habits...

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avana View Post
    In any case, obviously the fact that male to female transsexuals are more likely to be socialized as men than natal women in a hetero-sexist society would probably have a lot to do with sexual preferences and habits...
    While it is undoubtedly true that this sort of social engineering goes on (rather blatantly in fact) not even this kind of pressure can "change" some ones innate sexual orientation. I do think a lot more people are a lot more fluid than they think or want to believe but a transsexual upturns and disrupts her life so drastically that she has the unique opportunity to reexamine all the assumptions and personal "rules and regulations" her male life may have held so dear making it possible for her to seemingly "switch teams". I do think hormones are powerful enough to exert some kind of force but only if that person is innately wired to want to be with a man to begin with either as a heterosexual woman or a Bisexual woman.

  25. #50
    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    Looking at the list of studies that Melody found in post #28, I looked up the Anne Lawrence study since it is by far the largest (232 MtF) and the most recent (2005).

    http://www.springerlink.com/content/u25657804104w6v7/

    The results are as follows: Prior to SRS 54% of participants had been predominately attracted to women, while 9% were attracted to men. After SRS, half the the female-attracted participants became attracted to men, resulting in 25% still attracted to women and 34% attracted to men. The 41% balance I assume are bi, with perhaps a small number of asexuals.

    So, Kate I believe your information is inaccurate. If the Lawrence study is representational, there are more TSs who are attracted to men post SRS than are attracted to women.

    TSroadmap comes up with several reasons why there is a switch, but I don't know if there are studies to support this. See the link that Melody posted in #28 for the article. This is a summary:

    1. Post SRS hetero women are former homosexual men.
    2. Hormonal changes causes a change in sexual orientation.
    3. The average post SRS transwoman is more female than the average GG, therefore she will want relationships with men as well.
    4. The Stepford Wives ideal is actively pursued by transwomen.
    5. A heterosexual orientation is closely related to the TS's ability to pass and assimilate herself as a woman.
    6. The younger transwomen at SRS are more likely to be heterosexual.

    Again, I don't know whether the above reasons are based on research or if they are someone's opinion.


    But, to answer your question as to why so many TSs remain lesbian (or bi and still attracted to women), I have what may be an overly simplistic explanation, or rather I submit it as a question since I do not know the answer.

    Generally speaking, why is it that the majority of cismen are attracted to ciswomen and vice versa? Common sense dictates that we are designed this way to propagate the species: natural selection. Is sexual attraction biological or conditioned? Probably both although I'm sure there are strong arguments in favor of one or the other.

    Although transwomen are female, they do have male biological roots and also male conditioning to varying degrees. So it makes sense to me that some transwomen would still be attracted to women after transition. Many things change for a transwoman biologically after HRT, but not everything. Blood type is the same. Eye color is the same. Is there a biological component to sexual attraction that remains strong in some people? It's worth consideration. Another explanation from TSroadmap is that post SRS transwomen will continue relationships with former wives or female partners.
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