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Thread: New Version of Standards of Care

  1. #51
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    That is just priceless Gretchen, you can't provide a solid argument about the SoC because you have never even
    read them, now you were caught out in a total contradiction so you resort to personal attacks - just priceless

    We are not discussing if being a tranny, or a non-op or pre-op here is the right or wrong thing. I have said
    many times I want my SRS to make me feel complete. So how about you just get over yourself and either
    contribute something positive or constructive about the SoC to the discussion or just move on eh?
    Last edited by Melody Moore; 10-09-2011 at 05:59 PM.
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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rianna Humble View Post
    Why is it an attack to ask someone how they know that something they have never read is irrelevant to the way that health professionals treat them?
    Simply stated, Gretchen can do whatever she wants..
    However, her comments on this topic have exactly zero value to anyone. why would anyone care about what she has to say about this?

    its like when somebody says hey did you see that movie (which you didnt see) and for some reason you are compelled to make a comment as if you did....oh yeah, that movie, i liked the 2nd part..

  3. #53
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    I am going to see my gender clinic today, I am going to ask them why they must follow the WPATH SoC
    but I strongly suspect it is Queensland Health (the public health service) who defines this policy for them.

    While I don't know how things work in the USA, I suspect Doctors would turn to the WPATH SoC because
    there is no other SoC they can follow. If they are not following these guidelines it also sets themselves up
    for case of serious malpractice and litigation if something goes wrong. If I was a doctor I certainly would be
    using them for that fact alone.
    Last edited by Melody Moore; 10-09-2011 at 06:36 PM.
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  4. #54
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    Well I am back from my meeting with my therapist and this was a very interesting discussion because I did raise the
    issue about the new SoC and why they had to follow them. It seems that I was right on the money in my last post.

    If they don't follow these guidelines with has been put together by a well informed professional group of people in
    transgender health care, then you are setting yourself up for a case of malpractice and litigation if something was to
    go wrong. So all of you people out there that don't think you don't have to follow the Standards of Care, then be
    aware that you really probably have no choice in the matter just like me - your treating doctors and medical staff
    are most likely making sure you follow the SoC already regardless of what you might believe.

    Personally I would not want to be treated by any doctor who didn't follow the Standards of Care with my treatment
    because obviously such a doctor would just be like Gretchen and have no clue whatsoever about the right and wrong
    way to manage gender identity disorders, gender dysphoria or any other gender related issue. Being aware of what is
    in the SoC helps to ensure that you are getting the best type of treatment from those who are providing services to
    you. The SoC is also invaluable to how my support group is restructured and my therapist was totally 200% behind that
    because we as a support group have to also ensure that the services we provide also comply with the guidelines or we
    might find ourselves getting sued for a gross case of negligence because ignored or overlooked some aspect of the SoC.

    The SoC is your best friend really and I really don't know why so many people take such an issue with it - open your eyes folks!
    "Judging a person does not define who they are - it defines who you are"
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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melody Moore View Post
    ... The SoC is your best friend really and I really don't know why so many people take such an issue with it - open your eyes folks!
    To answer that directly, the reason (right or wrong) why many (Europeans at least) take issue is that the HBIGDA/WPATH SOCs have more or less made it mandatory to use a mental health professional of some sort and to discuss gender presentation issues with that professional.

    Being required, incentivised or pressured by a government-funded agency to engage in such discussions contravenes Article 8 of the The Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms (commonly known as the European Convention on Human Rights 1953, as amended up to and including 2010).
    See http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2011/09/29...-mentally-ill/
    and http://www.lgbt-ep.eu/wp-content/upl...rovisional.pdf
    See especially paragraph 13 of the above

    But I do realize that your question is rhetorical and you don't actually care to know why. To some people such issues are unimportant. I hope you see they are not unimportant to everyone and can agree to differ.
    Last edited by HenryHall; 10-10-2011 at 09:52 AM. Reason: Second hot link and comment added

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    Forced Treatment

    I am no friend of those who advocate forced psychiatric treatment outside of extreme circumstances, but:

    1) With the Standards of Care, it is more like compulsory diagnosis, which is prudent anyway. Even many Christian Scientists who do not believe in any medical care, will get a diagnosis, and use it to change their lifestyle or diet, etc., in short to be guided by any insights that turn up. Getting a diagnosis is essentailly harmless.

    2) It is, considering the rate of suicide and other mental crises, in transitioning TS, only prudent to get a contact in the world of psychiatry and psychology, before you have a crisis. Not every case, for example, of self-mutilaition ends happily as one did here, with a sympathetic doctor doing a vaginoplasty during the crisis, when the patient was rushed to emergency.
    My own case converted me, since I started out, on my own, and soon realized I needed help, as I got beyond my depth in conflicting emotions.
    What we are talking about is a special case, like having an ambulance stand by at a race track, even when nobody needs medical help. Most trans will sonner or later need help though, including possibly the prescription of some medication to deal with depression or counselling therapy.

    3) Since most TS start the process naive and not having a clue about the seriousness of the problems they are likely to encounter, it is wise for professionals to offer A SYSTEM TO FOLLOW IN TRANSITION, which has proven to help avoid or at least deal with the dire problems likely to be encountered, all too often. It is a mercy, not an authoritarian gesture.

    4) Since public medicare systems are paying the cost, they are entitled, like he who pays the piper, to call the tune. Some of these countries even allow those who pay their own way, to deal with a surgeon on any terms the surgeon is comfortable with, including ignoring the Standards of Care, in part, or completely, in exchange for money. If one cannot get such a surgeon in their own country, there are lots of quacks in the wide world who wil oblige, and no modern country will prohibit their citizens from travelling and seeking them out. Where is the compulsion then?

    5) Why is it a worry in European countries? Most European countries, at least the Northern ones, are socialist to a degree that the rest of the world has not followed. If they want to set standards for regulation of their much more intrusively interventionist govenments, fine. But you cannot apply those standards validly to non-socialist countries, unless or until they too become socialist to that degree. A European problem is not a universal issue.
    Last edited by Beth-Lock; 10-10-2011 at 01:20 PM.

  7. #57
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    TBPO I have never read the SOC. After my second unsuccessful suicide attempt I was ordered by the court to see a psychiatrist or face 6 months in an institution. I showed up for my first appointment as "Kelly" . after the preliminary introduction and explanation of why i was ordered to see him, he asked me if I thought i was a girl. I rolled my eyes and said, no.. i think I am a boy who should have been born a girl. On my second appointment i was handed off to a female psychiatrist who was versed in gender issues. After discerning that my GD was not my motivation for trying to end my life she handed me back off to the first doctor, but she also referred me to a gender therapist who after my third session set me on the road to transitioning physically.
    She basically told me that there was a procedure that must be followed in order to proceed, and she laid it out. I followed it... that's pretty much how it went. I guess that i never really thought of it as the government's way of controlling me or them trying to control what i did with my body, but more a way of helping me to accomplish my goal. I went from not having a real plan to having a path to follow. In the end... it worked out better than I could have hoped for because my transition went pretty smoothly with her guidance. YMMY.

    Kelly

    Footnote: I continued to see the court ordered shrink who found me to be "quite hostile" at his attempt to cure me. He was convinced that my suicide attempts were rooted in my GD.
    Last edited by kellycan27; 10-10-2011 at 01:03 PM.
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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beth-Lock View Post
    I am no friend of those who advocate forced psychiatric treatment outside of extreme circumstances, but: ...
    Dear Ms. Beth-Lock.

    I totally agree with all you wrote in that post.
    None of what you wrote bears on the human rights issues however.

    Q. Are the very good reasons you set forth sufficient reason to waive enforcement of human rights in general?
    Opinions vary, but the 27 nations of the European Parliament and the 47 nations of the Council of Europe (including Russia which is not entirely European) have asserted, through the democratic process, that Article 8 of the ECHR should be enforced, including especially in a context of the "the transsexual journey".

  9. #59
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    By REQUIRING transgendered to seek therapy, society is in effect stating that transgendered are mentally unstable. Until we prove otherwise, we are mentally unstable. How do we prove otherwise? Well, we MUST seek the advice and blessing of a therapist. So what do we do if the therapist tells us no, he won't approve? (Yes, it happens, particularly with the many religious-oriented therapists.) Well, most TG's shop around until we find a therapist who agrees with us. Wow! That makes a whole lot of sense. We agree we need therapy, but ONLY if the therapist agrees with our interpretation of our situation. Then too, maybe where Beth lives the public pays for all this, but where I live it comes out of my pocket.

    If even we are so willing to concede that transgendered, by their nature, are mentally unstable, is it any wonder that society as a whole would think the same? What other groups in America are subjected to forced therapy? The gays would never allow this without a real fight. Other than mothers who murder their own offspring, I can't think of any group that is presumed to be mentally unstable. Yet not only do we not protest our classification, we embrace it.

    I do not understand this. Never will. And no, I have nothing against VOLUNTARY therapy.

  10. #60
    What is normal anyway? Rianna Humble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cindi Johnson View Post
    By REQUIRING transgendered to seek therapy,
    I'm curious, is it a government agent who is standing over you with a gun (or threat of imprisonment) to force you to seek help? Which agency would that be?
    Check out this link if you are wondering about joining Safe Haven.

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  11. #61
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    I understand the viewpoint of all the people here against the SoC, but then again, all the people that I know that detransitioned went around the SoC and did not want the therapy. I go to support groups and am somewhat involved in the trans community in Montreal, and I have seen a lot of people who wanted access to hormones and surgery NOW or they were going to give up on the whole thing! Most of them did. Transition is a waiting game, and if a person will stop the transition process because the wait is too much to bear, then they may not be trans after all. Finding that out after surgery can have dire consequences.
    Last edited by Frances; 10-11-2011 at 07:33 AM.
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    A Note on Name Etiquette

    Before any other newcomer gets confused, I would like to point out that my name is not Beth-Lock. I chose this pseudonym because I liked the name Beth and it was already taken on this board, so I added "Lock," since it popped into my mind, as I was shopping for a padlock for the gate at the time, (as I have explained in a prior post on name choice). Beth eventually became my real name long after I chose my pseudonym for this board, so the whole name thing then took another twist! I eventually regretted choosing the "Lock" part, because there are some well-known people named Beth with that last name, people with whom I would not want to be confused.

    It seems the commonly followed style on this board, is to address people using their log-in name, without adding Mr., Miss or Ms., etc. Anything else seems jarring.
    Last edited by Beth-Lock; 10-10-2011 at 09:43 PM.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenith View Post
    I regret with all my heart being put on this earth a transsexual. But I don't regret finally facing the truth. And dealing with it. I feel free for the first time in my life.
    This deserved being quoted again. I agree TS really is a curse, at least in this world, and I truly wonder at anyone who can nonchalantly assert that it's so cool to be trans. I think what's really cool is never having to agonize about the second most basic existential issue after life itself: Are you a boy or a girl? It should be an easy question, and for more than 99% of the world's human beings, it is.

    The price we have all paid is the loss of well-being, a persistent queasiness in the center of our soul. And when we finally come to grips with what must be done to get some blessed relief, the world works overtime to compound the shame and guilt we already feel like a knife in our heart, just for trying to get what everyone else takes for granted: a little peace within.

    That being said, I don't want to spend the rest of my life pissing and moaning, and I hope in a few years I'll be able to say what Zenith said. I had my first meeting with a gender therapist on Sunday.

    I'm so impressed by the people I have encountered here. I salute you all for having the guts to risk everything for a chance at true happiness. You are champions.

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  14. #64
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    Without going into the morass that is any discussion of the SOC I wan to point out one thing. Because those std's exist, and people follow them, we are allowed medical care that used to be refused to TS folks. Sure, it looks like just a bunch of hoops, but actually they work pretty well. Sure, it is a bitch that you have to get classified as having a problem .... but you know, I've never met a TS person who didn't have some problems developed from years of hiding and surpressing. Getting a diagnosis gets you some medical insurance coverage. Does it cover SRS, not very often -- YET. But that is coming and I think sooner than most believe. I think we all forget that we are living in the middle of a big change in the way that trans folks are dealt with in the world. Some patience right now is likely to go a long way to rewards for future people who need to transition.

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  15. #65
    Silver Member kellycan27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cindi Johnson View Post
    By REQUIRING transgendered to seek therapy, society is in effect stating that transgendered are mentally unstable. Until we prove otherwise, we are mentally unstable. How do we prove otherwise? Well, we MUST seek the advice and blessing of a therapist. So what do we do if the therapist tells us no, he won't approve? (Yes, it happens, particularly with the many religious-oriented therapists.) Well, most TG's shop around until we find a therapist who agrees with us. Wow! That makes a whole lot of sense. We agree we need therapy, but ONLY if the therapist agrees with our interpretation of our situation. Then too, maybe where Beth lives the public pays for all this, but where I live it comes out of my pocket.

    If even we are so willing to concede that transgendered, by their nature, are mentally unstable, is it any wonder that society as a whole would think the same? What other groups in America are subjected to forced therapy? The gays would never allow this without a real fight. Other than mothers who murder their own offspring, I can't think of any group that is presumed to be mentally unstable. Yet not only do we not protest our classification, we embrace it.

    I do not understand this. Never will. And no, I have nothing against VOLUNTARY therapy.
    You must be living under a rock or something. There a lot of transsexuals who ARE mentally "unstable". Maybe not mentally "ill" but unstable for sure. For some being transsexual is all consuming to the point that it negatively affects almost every aspect of their daily lives. It affects their jobs, their social interaction with friends and family, their ability to have relationships. These issues can also lead to physical illness and in some cases suicide. Some people seem to think that The SOC is a way to interfere or maybe dissuade transsexuals or in the very least make it difficult. In my 9 years of living full time I have seen way more mentally "unstable" transsexuals than I seen who were "stable". The one's that i have met personally that did have a better handle on their trans sexuality where the one's who had already fully transitioned, and who had gone through the "process", and even some of them still had some issues that they were still having to deal with. I was really surprised at the number of younger transsexuals who due to their mental "instability" cannot get work, or who are on some kind of government aid ( disability). Some of you may know your rights, but it is apparent to me that and ( judging by a lot of the responses here)you have absolutely no clue as to what is is truly like to be a transsexual. I think maybe that some of you people should take the time to read some of the threads and posts right here in the TS section and see how many "happy and content" stories there are compared to the one's from people who are struggling and trying to work through issues.
    Last edited by kellycan27; 10-11-2011 at 04:42 PM.
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  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by kellycan27 View Post
    In my 9 years of living full time I have seen way more mentally "unstable" transsexuals than I seen who were "stable". The one's that i have met personally that did have a better handle on their trans sexuality where the one's who had already fully transitioned, and who had gone through the process, and even some of them still had some issues that they were still having to deal with. I was really surprised at the number of younger transsexuals who due to their mental "instability" cannot get work, or who are on some kind of government aid (disability).
    Same here. In my city, most of the unstable ones do not want to go the Montreal General's human psychiatry clinic, the only place that follows the SoC. They follow their own path with varying degrees of success, but are not well-integrated into society, are often unemployed and on some kind of disability program.
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  17. #67
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    And alas, they may be the ones with the greatest pain and need. My heart goes out to them.

    Lallie
    Time for a change.

  18. #68
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    You must be living under a rock or something. There a lot of transsexuals who ARE mentally "unstable".

    I know of a few Muslims who were mentally unstable about ten years back. Maybe ALL Muslims need therapy? I know of more than a few Southern Baptists who are mentally unstable; I'm all for therapy there, REQUIRED by society. I can go to the bar near my house most any night and find mentally unstable drunks, so, let's bring in the therapists. Maybe even your own family has had a quirky member or two; so, ALL your family must now go to therapy, it seems. If not, you are being a bit inconsistent, aren't you, Kelly? After all, you support requiring me into forced therapy because someone YOU know is mentally ill.

    As I said before, I'll never understand. I'll stand by my previous posts.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cindi Johnson View Post
    Maybe ALL Muslims need therapy?
    wouldn't bother me..................

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cindi Johnson View Post
    You must be living under a rock or something. There a lot of transsexuals who ARE mentally "unstable".

    I know of a few Muslims who were mentally unstable about ten years back. Maybe ALL Muslims need therapy? I know of more than a few Southern Baptists who are mentally unstable; I'm all for therapy there, REQUIRED by society. I can go to the bar near my house most any night and find mentally unstable drunks, so, let's bring in the therapists. Maybe even your own family has had a quirky member or two; so, ALL your family must now go to therapy, it seems. If not, you are being a bit inconsistent, aren't you, Kelly? After all, you support requiring me into forced therapy because someone YOU know is mentally ill.

    Did i say that? I was addressing that which you said in regards to mental health. i was only stating that there are a lot of mentally unstable transsexuals. I never said that everyone should be subject to forced therapy.

    As I said before, I'll never understand. I'll stand by my previous posts.
    Did i say that? I was addressing that which you said in regards to mental health. i was only stating that there are a lot of mentally unstable transsexuals. I never said that everyone should be subject to forced therapy. maybe a therapist could help you get over these feeling you have about being "set upon" when it's just in your head.
    Last edited by kellycan27; 10-11-2011 at 06:00 PM.
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  21. #71
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    I just started gender therapy to help decide what to do about what I already know about myself. That's the really scary part for me, and I want some expert help in making this big change as endurable as possible for the people I love. I don't feel there's a stigma attached to to it, nor would I expect anyone who knew me to think any less of me. Quite the opposite, I'm pretty sure. And if this work gives me SOC brownie points, that's a bonus. I need all the help I can get.

    Lallie
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  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by LALady View Post
    I don't feel there's a stigma attached to to it, nor would I expect anyone who knew me to think any less of me. Quite the opposite, I'm pretty sure.
    Me neither. As a matter of fact, the idea of the SoC made everyone (including my workplace, family and friends) understand that this was not a lifestyle choice. I have used the SoC as a selling point to reassure them. But then again, it was not a lifestyle choice. Maybe it is for others.
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  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rianna Humble View Post
    Unfortunately, Hope, you appear to be arguing that this access should not be based on the best professional assessment of health needs but on ability to pay. The SoC exist to try to ensure that healthcare providers adopt best practice in catering to the very real differences in health needs of the gender variant population. By saying, as you did previously that if someone has the funds to pay that should be the only standard rather than how the procedure might affect their general well-being you appear to be arguing for something very different to healthcare as a human right.
    I have this funny thing about human liberty - I like it.

    What I am suggesting, dear Rianna, is that individuals should be in charge of our own health care and our own treatment needs. That access should be based on an individuals need - not on an individual's ability to pay, nor on an assessment by a third party.

    Frankly, I am the sort of crazy socialist that thinks that health care is a human right and should be free - my comment about cost was merely a recognition of the morally bankrupt system as it actually exists in my nation.

    I GUARANTEE you - that you are 1 "professional assessment of health needs" that disagrees with your desires away from agreeing with me.

    Yes, there are "very real differences in health needs of the gender variant population." No one knows that better than a member of said population. I just think that those individuals who will be undergoing treatment, and paying for it (sadly) have a better idea, or at least more right, to make decisions about their individual health needs than any one else.

    As I stated, what I have is a fundamental problem with the idea that we have other people deciding what we can and cannot do with our bodies. In no other population would that be tolerated.
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  24. #74
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    You know, I think people just breezed over what I posted.

    The SoC exist NOT to make things harder for those who are truly trans. They are to weed out the crazy, non-trans people who have other issues going on they think are at least some way in related to gender identity, when they are not.

    If you don't have the SoC, or the majority of people do not follow them, then you're going to get all sorts of people transitioning (when they shouldn't), remaining crazy, regretting it, transitioning back and then doing everything in their power to de-legitimatize everyone who is truly transgendered.

    The SoC protect YOU. Even if they're a pain in the ass, they're set to keep a real and serious understanding of the situation you are in, by having it done in a controlled, scientific and decent manner.

    So, don't complain or feel persecuted by the SoC's presence. If they didn't exist, all you'd need is a few crazy idiots, and every inch of progress made could be completely undone. All rights, all understanding, all dignity would be torn away and people would see it as insanity, or equally as bad, a choice.

    Does no one understand this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sophie_C View Post
    ... The SoC exist NOT to make things harder for those who are truly trans.
    The SoC protect YOU. Even if they're a pain in the ass, they're set to keep a real and serious understanding of the situation you are in, by having it done in a controlled, scientific and decent manner. ...
    So, don't complain or feel persecuted by the SoC's presence. If they didn't exist, ...
    Does no one understand this?
    I believe you will find that the above is understood by just about everyone and generally agreed. Well, with a possible exception as to "decent".

    It is not the presence of the SOC that people feel oppressed and persecuted by or complain about, because most everyone agrees that there should be a SOC document.

    Rather it is the contents of the SOC that is objectionable, and for multiple reasons.

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