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Thread: Don we now our GAY apparel

  1. #1
    Complex Lolita...
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    Don we now our GAY apparel

    Quote Originally Posted by sissystephanie
    “There is only one real definition for the word Transvestite!! That definition is; A person who dresses in the clothing of the opposite sex for sexual purposes!! And that definition is the same all over the world!! Anybody on this forum can certainly call themselves anything they want (as long as it is legal!), but at least be accurate in your definitions!! Those of you who call themselves Transvestites are more likely just crossdressers like me!!”
    [SIZE="2"]Let me translate - “for sexual purposes,” means for specific individuals, namely homosexual males, apparently an abhorrent notion to some MtF crossdressers around here. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’ve seen (and heard) it all before – two years ago, to be exact, and several times since then. Rather than respond to the above-quoted text directly, I thought I would construct another lengthy essay about this stubborn, obstinate, and disappointing perception people have about TV’s. I know that when the term “transvestite” homes into view, those who have made up their minds long ago will take aim and let loose a fusillade of homophobic rhetoric couched in ignorance. The fact that it even creeps into THIS oasis of support and sympathy is downright alarming, but, rather than get upset about things that will NEVER change, I thought I would tell you all a story, actually a confession of sorts...

    Not too long ago, I was involved in a love triangle. Yep, little Freddy was the lover of a married woman. I met her in art school, and we often went around together, but never dated. Frustrated with my lack of interest (there were other females around at the time distracting me), my female friend married her other “default” boyfriend, someone she had known since childhood. I was at the wedding. After that, we (obviously) drifted apart as friends, and I didn’t see her for many years, but, after getting a Christmas card from her one December, I decided to visit my former female friend at her home. Her marriage was faltering, due to several factors I will not divulge, and I happened to re-enter her life at a critical moment. The relationship we never had blossomed out of nothing, and the affair began...

    This was during the time that my crossdressing (or transvestism, to be more accurate) really began to take off, and the next few years became my “golden” period as a TV. My married girlfriend did not wear feminine clothes to any great extent; in fact years of marriage had turned her into a female version of her husband. I dressed to compensate, but I must say I didn’t think about that at the time. We were “together” as often as possible for nine years, but by the end the heat had gone out of our relationship. She eventually managed to separate from her husband, and got an apartment in another town – I visited her there, and briefly our relationship grew bright again. At the time I was caring for my aging (and ill) father, so I was very much tied to place, constrained, yet wondering about the future. What was going to happen?

    Shortly before my father passed away, my love “partner,” for lack of a better description, disclosed that she had met another man at her apartment complex, and there was a new love triangle going on under MY nose. I was shocked, but, in the wake of my father’s death, all sorts of things were on my mind, and I submissively remained her friend. This woman finally divorced her husband (he found out about the other other man), and then our nine-year relationship also capsized and sank. She then told her ex-husband about ME, and I had an interesting conversation on the phone with him one night (he called me). Yes, it’s pretty shocking for a man to find out that he’s been a cuckold for nine years, and I felt guilty for ever getting involved in such a mess, but I did it because I loved the woman. I thought it COULD work, but it didn’t. I’m sorry I tried...

    A month went by, and I got another call from my ex-lover’s ex-husband. Apparently she had just told him (out of spite) that I was a transvestite! I told her my most precious secret many years before – she was someone I could trust (I thought), so I told ALL. She kept telling me I was her “soul mate,” and I reciprocated, so why keep things to myself? Well, this innocent attitude came back to haunt me in no uncertain terms. The ex-husband was outraged that his ex had been with a transvestite; in fact he was much more upset about THAT than he was about being duped. He demanded a head-to-head meeting to discuss the issue, and I acquiesced – I really wanted to talk to someone, ANYONE, since all of the secrecy was now out in the open. I went to see him that very afternoon, and we talked for hours in the little TB porch that projected from the second floor of his house (THEIR house)...

    We talked a little about the love triangle and its repercussions, but, loosened my alcohol, he mainly wanted to “discuss” the fact that I was a transvestite. I did not dispute my ex-lover’s claim, nor did I betray my own convictions. It was an odd scene – I don’t drink (anything), but on this occasion I drank as much as the other guy, simply to keep the conversation flowing. This constitutes my one and only time that I have talked about crossdressing with another man face-to-face, a homophobic, highly-polarized, opinionated, black-or-white kind of male, at that. I think the adrenaline coursing through my system deflected the effects of the alcohol, because I was lucid and in control of myself at all times. The drunken man directly across from me called me a “fag” repeatedly, even though he knew I had been the lover of his ex-wife (a woman). It didn’t matter. Since I WAS a transvestite, I HAD to be a “fag,” a homosexual, a queer, or whatever...

    I assured the gentleman that I was most assuredly NOT a “fag,” but he wasn’t listening. He called me a “stinking” transvestite, but I assured him I was clean as a whistle. “I never liked you,” he said, “And now I know why – you’re a God-damned FAG!” BTW, my ex-lover also disclosed (to her ex-husband) that I had taken many artistic (trust me) nude photos of her during our relationship – he demanded that I show them to him, but I refused. I was thinking later that this might have provided evidence to countermand his claim that I was somehow homosexual – would a homosexual male want to take nude photos of his female lover? Hilarious, but it didn’t matter – I was a “fag,” since I was a transvestite, case closed. My drinking “buddy” even pictured in his mind how I might dress-up, based on his own perverse desires. He said, “I can see you in a bra and panties, with bright red lips, wearing high heels.” I suppressed a laugh, and then told him that I dress conservatively, going on to add that he would probably not be attracted to me...

    “What do you mean?” he asked, and I told him that, since all transvestites (to him) are “fags,” and it follows I must be dressing to attract males, my style would not please HIM one little bit. He backed off after that – I think he scared himself. I began to understand just how stubborn the male mind can be, especially when it is marinated in ignorance – since my male “friend” had no point of reference for transvestism, other than what he had seen on TV (drag), heard from his peers, or had been implanted in his mind from day one in a homophobic “normal” household, he could not fathom how I could somehow be heterosexual, at least in regards to his ex-wife’s extramarital adventuring. It was sad and disappointing, yet revelatory and somewhat amusing, all at the same time. I felt sorry for him – he seemed very confused when we parted company later that evening...

    I base a lot of my information regarding the unfair perceptions or connotations about crossdressing on memorable incidents like this, so I get rather “miffed” when someone (who should know better) passes along the misguided idea that all transvestites are engaged in same-sex attraction. Perhaps that is one definition that, at one time, was somewhat accurate, but a lot of water has passed under the bridge since then, and I feel we can safely dispense with such outmoded and disused concepts here in the 21st century. I believe I may have latent homosexual tendencies, and a bi-curious nature, but my own brand of transvestism was borne of my admiration for females and feminine characteristics. Not all women are the same (as I’ve learned the hard way), but I have tried to emulate those very human attributes that I find most often residing in the hearts, minds, and souls of females. Actually wearing female clothing, and feeling a difference that is always difficult to describe to non-believers, was the inevitable outcome of my effeminate, less-than-male persona...

    Although my ex-girlfriend cheated on her husband, and then me, I learned a lot by being with her. Long after the crap hit the fan, and all the males in her life found out about each other, she called me up and reminisced tearfully about the happy times we shared – this was when I was living alone out here in Kansas, and she and I were both crying on the phone. I visited her a few years later, driving all the way back to Massachusetts for this long-delayed reunion. We had a wonderful time together, but she still did not want to talk about my crossdressing, turning away repeatedly when I tried to bring up the subject. Like all “normal” people, I think she also assumes that transvestites must be gay, or perverse – I played the role of MALE for her during our reunion, and nothing more was said about my curious “hobby.” Since then, I don my “gay” apparel in private, and you can call me GAY all you want, since I know I cannot change ossified opinions with words alone. Honestly, it doesn’t MATTER. Needless to say, being part of a adulterous love triangle is something I’m not proud of, and I’m still recuperating from this shattering experience. I’m pleased to report that all of the participants are alive and well, at least outwardly...

    I wish to thank sissystephanie for the providing the post I quoted – I didn’t know how I was going to begin this piece, until I saw it (again, for the umpteenth time). I also wish to assure all homophobic individuals on this site that I do not wish to have “sexual relations” or “sexual purposes” with anyone who has a closed mind. You can rest easy, safe and secure in your own ignorance. You’re welcome...

    Tell me, my finely dressed MtF crossdresser friends – don’t you think there’s room for more than one definition of TRANSVESTITE, other than the archaic one everybody* seems to fall back on? Thanks for reading...

    *Let’s call them Americans...
    [/SIZE]

  2. #2
    Miss Conception Karren H's Avatar
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    Fah la la.. Fah la la.... La la la... There was a cartoon I saw once with a crossdresser getting dressed at Christmas time with that as the title..
    Current Obsession - Breasts and Lingerie!

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    Silver Member DebbieL's Avatar
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    I always find the definition in the quote offensive, and inaccurate. It assumes that the ONLY reason a man would wear women's clothing would be for sexual gratification (ejaculation). Yet nearly ALL of those posting to this forum describe activities that are far beyond immediate sexual gratification. Most have clearly stated that their dressing provide emotional satisfaction and is an expression of sexual IDENTITY rather than preference.

    Many are gay, but many are also heterosexual.

    Ironically, women who dress in clothing that has traditionally been "male" clothing, such as long pant, flat shoes, and loose fitting shirts made out of thicker fabrics like Flannel or thick cotton weave are never assumed to be doing it for "Sexual Gratification".

    When it comes to fashion, most men's wear is the rejects from women's wear. If it's so ugly that women won't buy it, you can always whack off the heel or the darts or pleats and sell it to men.

    Men's clothing is designed to hide the shape, hide weapons, drugs, wallets, and electronic devices. Coats, shirts, and jackets are loose fitting and loaded with large deep pockets. Even shorts are loose and usually hang well below the knees.

    But wanting to wear clothes that display a body that is nicely shaped as a result of diet, exercise, and shape-wear is obviously exclusively for immediate sexual gratification and no other reason.

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    Silver Member DebbieL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karren Hutton View Post
    Fah la la.. Fah la la.... La la la... There was a cartoon I saw once with a crossdresser getting dressed at Christmas time with that as the title..
    It's probably as old as the term gay. I remember seeing it in Playboy back around 1968. It's probably 10 years older than that.
    Going back to holiday season with Milton Berle.

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    Member Elizabeth Ann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karren Hutton View Post
    Fah la la.. Fah la la.... La la la... There was a cartoon I saw once with a crossdresser getting dressed at Christmas time with that as the title..
    I'm a little thick headed this morning. I don't get it.
    Liz

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    Just Kate Kaitlyn26's Avatar
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    Sounds like you got a crash course in how to avoid trouble in the future.
    "I am the beginning and the end. I bring order into chaos. "
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    SO to GG Missa Miss Maxine's Avatar
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    Everything I do is for sexual purposes. Everything. In male mode and in female. It boggles the mind.
    I don't try to look like a woman that fits in. I try to look like a woman that stands out.

    http://www.facebook.com/maxinesnotdead

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    Miss Conception Karren H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elizabeth Ann View Post
    I'm a little thick headed this morning. I don't get it.
    Liz
    Lol. Sing "Deck the Halls"
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    Silver Member Debra Russell's Avatar
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    Frederique I always pause and take a breath before reading one of your posts -- but never dissapointed yet, thanks for posting your experience...............Debra

    .........and Karren -- that cartoon tells it all!!
    Last edited by Debra Russell; 09-28-2011 at 11:14 AM.

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    ghost Anne2345's Avatar
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    Thank you, Freddy, for taking the time to compose and submit a confession of your own. Now that wasn't so hard, was it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frédérique View Post
    Tell me, my finely dressed MtF crossdresser friends – don’t you think there’s room for more than one definition of TRANSVESTITE, other than the archaic one everybody* seems to fall back on?
    There should be room for more than one definition of "tranvestite." Or at least a broader definition that encompasses more than just a sub-group of the whole. But the question is will the non-believers back away from the unfair and ignorantly bestowed negative connotation they have created and imparted upon the word? I do not see that happening anytime in the near future. But in here, in this forum, we should all know better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frédérique View Post
    Since then, I don my “gay” apparel in private, and you can call me GAY all you want, since I know I cannot change ossified opinions with words alone. Honestly, it doesn’t MATTER.
    Indeed. It does not matter. And in the event that it does matter, or should matter, can anyone please explain to me why it matters? I will entertain analytical, coherent, and circumspect arguments only, before I dismiss the same as flawed and of no legitimate substance.

    Quote Originally Posted by DebbieL View Post
    I always find the definition in the quote offensive, and inaccurate. It assumes that the ONLY reason a man would wear women's clothing would be for sexual gratification (ejaculation). Yet nearly ALL of those posting to this forum describe activities that are far beyond immediate sexual gratification. Most have clearly stated that their dressing provide emotional satisfaction and is an expression of sexual IDENTITY rather than preference.
    Very well stated, Debbie. Except that for me, as a staunchly devoted and ardent crossdresser, it is not so much an expression of my sexual identity, as it is an expression of my personal identity.

    Not that there is anything wrong with also incorporating one's sexual identity into the mix . . . .

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    Gender adventurer JamieG's Avatar
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    I don't want to put words into Sissy Stephanie's mouth, but I think when people say that "transvestites dress for sexual purposes" I think they are referring to transvestic fetishism. This would not presume that you are gay, only that you find dressing to be erotic and may require it for sexual function. This might entail self-eroticism, or be with a partner either gay or heterosexual. That said, I imagine you, and many of us, are not happy with those assumptions either.

    However, I think your story does a good job of illustrating how the unwashed (and unscented ;-) ) masses view us. If you've never met an out-of-the-closet crossdresser, why would you think the sterotypes are wrong?

    By the way, going to the man's house to talk to him seemed like a very dangerous thing to do. Given the hatred he was spewing at you, it sounds like you're lucky to have escaped without violence.

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    Miss Conception Karren H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Debra Russell View Post
    .........and Karren -- that cartoon tells it all!!
    Wish I could find that online...

    Actually the rest of the song has some pretty powerful hidden meanings!!!

    Follow me in merry measure, (lets go get dressed up)
    Fa la la la la, la la la la.
    While I tell of Yule tide treasure, (head to the mall for those after Christmas clearence on pretty dresses)
    Fa la la la la, la la la la.

    Current Obsession - Breasts and Lingerie!

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    Member CamillaCD's Avatar
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    I don't like Sissystephanie's sweeping statement at all. To me the terms has the same meaning. In fact, in Norway (and I am pretty sure this goes for the other Nordic countries too) we have only one word, transvestite. To say that all Nordic Tgirls crossdress for sexual purposes is a bit far fetched.

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    Member Elizabeth Ann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karren Hutton View Post
    Fah la la.. Fah la la.... La la la... There was a cartoon I saw once with a crossdresser getting dressed at Christmas time with that as the title..
    Quote Originally Posted by Elizabeth Ann View Post
    I'm a little thick headed this morning. I don't get it.
    Liz
    Quote Originally Posted by Karren Hutton View Post
    Lol. Sing "Deck the Halls"
    Oh! Right. Or as my daughter would say, well duh!

    Liz

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    "Grandma Susan" SusanLCD's Avatar
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    There must be some way to express the crossdressing aspect without including sexual feelings. Let's see....

    - I find experiencing the world as Susan to be exciting (oops! I guess that won't do it.)
    - When Susan is prettied up, I love how she.... (oops! Can't say love.)
    - Susan has a fantastic view of the wo..... (nope. Can't involve fantasy.)
    - Susan's fashion options are much more gay than ... (uh-uh. Probably went even farther afield for homophobics, there.)

    I guess she's right. I can't separate the crossdressing from the sexual connotation when the listener insists on seeing them. Regardless whether they are there or not.

    Oh well. Does this mean I'm banished to the closet? (That's a LOT better than "go to your room.")
    Susan

    "Not sure who I am, yet. But, I'll let you know..."

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    Gold Member NicoleScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frédérique View Post
    Tell me, my finely dressed MtF crossdresser friends – don’t you think there’s room for more than one definition of TRANSVESTITE, other than the archaic one everybody* seems to fall back on?
    Apparently, Stephanie is confused. She said "there is only one real definition for the word Transvestite", and it's dressing for sexual purposes. In another post, Stephanie said that it's dressing for the purpose of having sex with a partner of the same sex, and in still another post it is if while dressed you make out with a person of the same sex. Frederique, you may think there's room for more than one definition, but Stephanie thinks there's only one (but which one?)

    Sure, Frederique, there is room for more than one definition, but not to the extent that everybody uses the one that suits only them. When that happens, we fail to communicate. That's why we have dictionaries. They show commonly used definitions of words, usually in order of most commonly used.

    We still haven't resolved the different uses of the word "transgendered". To some, it's the umbrella term, and to others, it's the more specific type of crossdresser who has an internal feminine identity, and may (or may not) dress to express that femininity. Maybe we need a new word. Or else we'll just stay confused.

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    Lingerie Girl Andi.Devine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamieG View Post
    when people say that "transvestites dress for sexual purposes" I think they are referring to transvestic fetishism.
    Apparently it is not limited to Transvestite or Transvestism on what the proper definition might be.

    Transvestic Fetishism
    SYMPTOMS
    Over a period of at least 6 months, in a heterosexual male, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving cross-dressing.

    The fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

    Back to Transvestite:
    Magnus Hirschfeld believed that transvestites differed in their focus of pleasure, that it was on themselves, especially on themselves in their clothes


    It appears that there may be many sub-categories of Transvestism, one of which most likely being "Cross-Dresser".

    Transvestite should not be considered a negative term, but unfortunately over the years it has become such.

    Just my thoughts..

    -KD

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitlyn26 View Post
    Sounds like you got a crash course in how to avoid trouble in the future.
    Dido!

    They call it evolution for a reason.

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    Carole carhill2mn's Avatar
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    Don we now our GAY apparel
    Originally Posted by sissystephanie
    “There is only one real definition for the word Transvestite!! That definition is; A person who dresses in the clothing of the opposite sex for sexual purposes!! And that definition is the same all over the world!! Anybody on this forum can certainly call themselves anything they want (as long as it is legal!), but at least be accurate in your definitions!! Those of you who call themselves Transvestites are more likely just crossdressers like me!!”

    I have some problems with the above quote. This definition of the word "transvestite" is a very old one from some old (and
    not too informative or accurate) medical/psychological journals. It is true that the word "transvestite" is used around the world to describe wearing clothes of the opposite sex; that is its literal meaning. "Crossdresser" is used more often in the United States.

    Similarily, the use of the word "gay" in "Don we now our gay apparel" from one of our Christmas songs was perfectly acceptable until "gay" came to mean "homosexual" rather than "fun, happy, fancy", etc.
    Hugs, Carole

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    Of course there's room, but why bother trying to rejuvenate a term with such a negative history and loaded connotations ... all of which your story amply illustrates? It will go nowhere. It's already perverse enough that we have people in this forum, of all places, giving a "real definition" which isn't.

    Lea

  21. #21
    SO to GG Missa Miss Maxine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lea Paine View Post
    Of course there's room, but why bother trying to rejuvenate a term with such a negative history and loaded connotations ... all of which your story amply illustrates? It will go nowhere. It's already perverse enough that we have people in this forum, of all places, giving a "real definition" which isn't.

    Lea
    Then why crossdress? Why come out as gay? History is not made or changed by people who are willing to accept negativity.
    I don't try to look like a woman that fits in. I try to look like a woman that stands out.

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    Member drushin703's Avatar
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    Frederique:
    I was out clubbing last saturday and an older man came up to me, grabbed my hand and planted a kiss on my neck. Even though I AM the transvestite
    that dresses for sexual purposes I do not consider myself gay, NO NOT EVEN A LITTLE TINY BIT.It sure is complecated for me to understand, especially considering
    my personal presentation.Usually a short skirt or dress, always hose, always makeup and tall heels, always perfume, always a long flowing wig, hips swaying.
    It must be hard as hell for someone else to understand what my intentions are based on how I look, or in many ways act.A person doesn"t always come
    in contact with one of us so your ex giving away your secret, especially to another man (is evil) never helps the tranny definition.I applaud your courage.

    Enfemme I like to be kissed and like my hand to be held......dana

  23. #23
    Senior Member 2B Natasha's Avatar
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    Funny you should write this. I was just last night having this discussion with my SO. Why I chose to call myself a Transvestite and not a crossdresser and what those terms mean today as opposed to yesterday. BTW. I chose to be called a Transvestite because I think the word crossdresser is quite ugly to say. Just doesn't roll off the tongue as nicely, does it. I rarely have a sexual urge when dressed, but it has happened.

    Anyway. After explaining the differences from a dictionary point of view to her. Man is she a patient woman. I stated that we are all by definition transvestites and also crosssdressers. at the same time.

    I believe, and so does she. That there is a sexual element in almost everything that we do. Every stitch of clothing that we put on. How we comb are hair etc etc etc.All are suble touches to impress either your friends or attached the attention of your lover or A lover. Where you have trouble is slicing that very thin piece of pie we have. We as a group are a minority as it is to the wider world. There are no hard and fast %'s of us but they must be fairly small. But I would hazard to guess that the line that we draw to call ourselves Crossdressers or Tranvestites or Drag Queens or Drag Kings or whatever Whether there is a sexual element in what we do. Changes on a day to day or on an hour to hour basis. It may even change depending on who is standing in front of them. So to say one is a Transvestite or a crossdressers is only a very brief label we put on ourselves at the very time we are speaking or thinking. To make a hard and fast rule that you are just a crossdresser is to put yourself in jeopardy of lying. But if you say " Heck ya, I do it for the sexual turn on ". with me or with a play partner then perhaps you are safer, but never completely correct. Once again I would hazard to guess at one point or another it was a case of getting dressed up just for the heck of it. Non sexual.
    You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because your all the same

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Maxine View Post
    Then why crossdress? Why come out as gay? History is not made or changed by people who are willing to accept negativity.
    It's not a matter of willingness to accept negativity as it is simply recognizing reality. The gay community didn't embrace "homosexual," "fag," or any number of other terms, slang or not. They took on "gay" - a lesser used, less loaded term and made it theirs over decades of ferocious activism.

    It IS possible to embrace a loaded, perjorative term(in the argot sense). But consider the reality. Assuming the tiny numbers of TG/CD people who are out actually engage in enough activist activity to make a dent in the public's usage, what will have been accomplished? Essentially nothing.

    TransvestITE connotes identity in a strong fashion due to its construction. Moreover, its similarity to "transgender" and "transsexual" hampers differentiating these for the general public. Crossdresser rings relatively neutral vis-a-vis identity in part due to its softer ending, which, while it can connote identity, as much connotes activity. The English word "dress" helps here as well, while "vest ite" (to English-speaking ears, anyway) conveys nothing similar. I doubt many people jump to the notion of dressing from "vest." I go immediately to the Latin root, but then, I had 4 years of Latin.

    On history: Defending the ramparts isn't progress. That requires action on a positive agenda.

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    Lea

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    i don't think think the real point of Freddy's post is todebate definitions. My take away is that for some people I any divergence from the "norm" pf gender identification is presumed as gay. In her example
    both her lover and the ex made the same assumption. And both exhibited the same venal attitude ..like calling someone fag was the worst possible insult. . Sadly that reflects much of the intolerance we face out there.

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