Male lesbians

[ReineD]

My SO likes me just fine, whether I jokingly refer to myself as a "male lesbian" or not.

But Sophie, there's the difference. I don't think anyone would fault a CD who says he is a male lesbian if he says it jokingly and others know it is a joke. And it may well be that others here says it jokingly as well, but I'm under the impression that some CDs do think they are lesbian. It just doesn't make sense to use this term, unless we are prepared to change the meaning of the word 'lesbian'. A wife whose acceptance is precarious, will believe that if her husband thinks of himself as a lesbian, then it must surely mean he believes he is a woman. It's just a confusing term, even if it is a fun thing to say.

A more accurate way to describe the sexual preference of a CD who likes women (and who doesn't like to think of himself as male when dressed), is "gynephile" (a lover of women). Also, I quite agree with Lorileah's point. Any CD who uses his male parts when having sex with women while dressed is not behaving like a lesbian.

No, I would say it's a huge freakin' leap to go from "I'm a 'male lesbian'" to "I'm a gay male." The former is obviously a way of saying, "When I'm dressed, I still like women." It has nothing to do with wanting a man.

When I hear the term "male lesbian", I think of a pre-op TS who is still a biological male although this is waning due to HRT, since she has no functioning penis. The 'lesbian' part identifies her as a woman, not a man, and it is just a question of time before the 'male' part is dropped. And of course a post-op (or non-op) TS can drop the 'male' part and simply say she is a lesbian. (There are TSs who for a variety of reasons cannot have SRS).

I don't know why some people have to wander out of their self-imposed ghetto to yell in our faces, "YOU ARE NOT ONE OF US!." OK. Fine. We get it. You've made your point. Now bugger off!

Oh, and thanks Reine for creating a new epithet for the haters to hurl around.

It is not the people in this thread who are saying that CDs are not included in the lesbian community. It is the lesbians themselves who do not want relationships with men who have penises. (Generally speaking). I'm sorry, but it is what it is. The people in this thread who are arguing against using the term "male lesbian" are simply advocating for a term that better reflects the reality of life in the lesbian community. Honestly, any CD who walks into a lesbian bar and announces himself as a male lesbian, wouldn't be taken seriously. And if he is married to a hetero GG, then his wife won't take kindly to being the second half of a lesbian couple.

... but, if both partners are OK with any term they wish to call themselves, then all is good!

[hotskirt]

I'm a Lesbian in a male body. I only like women

[sara.s]

I am a mtf crossdressing trans-man.. Does that make sense?

[Sophie86]

But Sophie, there's the difference. I don't think anyone would fault a CD who says he is a male lesbian if he says it jokingly and others know it is a joke. And it may well be that others here says it jokingly as well, but I'm under the impression that some CDs do think they are lesbian.

The thread started with a quote from a comedian, and got several humorous responses. The only people I've seen taking it seriously are the ones condemning the term.

It just doesn't make sense to use this term, unless we are prepared to change the meaning of the word 'lesbian'.

Then it doesn't make any sense to use the terms 'she', 'her', and 'girl' when talking about CDs either, yet we do. Are you going to crusade against that usage also? Wouldn't that be far more upsetting to a wife who doesn't understand us than the term "male lesbian?" At least using the latter affirms that we are male.

A wife whose acceptance is precarious, will believe that if her husband thinks of himself as a lesbian, then it must surely mean he believes he is a woman. It's just a confusing term, even if it is a fun thing to say.

That's between him and his wife. One might be inclined to offer him some gentle advice on the subject, but I don't see any reason for strident condemnation.

A more accurate way to describe the sexual preference of a CD who likes women (and who doesn't like to think of himself as male when dressed), is "gynephile" (a lover of women).

I have no problem with that term, but it's not one that would communicate anything to most people, whereas "male lesbian" is instantly recognizable.

Also, I quite agree with Lorileah's point. Any CD who uses his male parts when having sex with women while dressed is not behaving like a lesbian.

Yeah, I don't get that. First of all, it's male lesbian, so of course we're using our male parts, and second of all, lesbians have been known to make use of male parts during sex.

When I hear the term "male lesbian", I think of a pre-op TS who is still a biological male although this is waning due to HRT, since she has no functioning penis. The 'lesbian' part identifies her as a woman, not a man, and it is just a question of time before the 'male' part is dropped. And of course a post-op (or non-op) TS can drop the 'male' part and simply say she is a lesbian. (There are TSs who for a variety of reasons cannot have SRS).

I think it's considered rude to refer to a pre-op TS as "male" just because the surgery hasn't taken place yet.

It is not the people in this thread who are saying that CDs are not included in the lesbian community. It is the lesbians themselves who do not want relationships with men who have penises.

Okay, but us using this term doesn't somehow trap them into an obligation to have sex with us. I haven't seen anyone here argue that lesbians should want to have sex with CDs just because we wear dresses.

Honestly, any CD who walks into a lesbian bar and announces himself as a male lesbian, wouldn't be taken seriously. And if he is married to a hetero GG, then his wife won't take kindly to being the second half of a lesbian couple.

That's good advice for anyone who was confused on that score, but the desire to give advice doesn't explain the angry tone that some people were taking. It doesn't explain why we were being told "suck it up people you are straight men."

[Ellepet]

I hesitated to post again on this thread as I'm a new member and getting my feet wet but Sophie's last post was so clear to me. I am new to understanding the cross dressing and a few others things my SO recently shared with me but I'm not new to labels and those that feel somehow justified in using them to describe not only themselves.

I've been labeled a freak my whole life. First by the mother that "bought" me, used me, then by the group I learned to feel the first gentle touch, love and acceptance. Women. My partner was a lesbian and truly loved me. Many of her friends hated me because I was "bi" so really denying my true sexuality. Only I wasn't at all. They were full of crap.

I am very feminine yet enjoy many male interests and hobbies. My friends tell me all the time I'm a "guy" except for some men that wanted or saw a woman so lacked any respect for what I did know as I was "just" a woman.*

I've read on here men that dreamed of waking up as a woman. Well, I've done that too. Dreamed of waking up with a penis. Because I'm wanting to be a man? No, because I associated that with strength and aggression and force and I so desperately needed that at that time.

I'm none of those things and all those things at the same time. I first posted on this thread because it was the first thing I joked about with my SO. Do I view him as a lesbian. Hell, no, but it resonated a bit with me and helped me understand a bit and he confirmed that my understanding was correct. For him. For us.*

I apologize if I am overstepping or being disrespectful. No one owns pain or can determine what thought process works for another. One thing I've learned is how truly useless and far off the mark labels have been for me. As far as the original post....still love Eddie.

[Debutante]

That's wonderful to hear, Sophie! It's a compliment in many ways...

[ReineD]

I think it's considered rude to refer to a pre-op TS as "male" just because the surgery hasn't taken place yet.

You've made many points but the only one I want to address specifically is this one. I want to make it clear that I do not think of any M2F TS as being male. Period. If you go back and read my post, you'll see that I said, "When I hear the term "male lesbian" ...". It is not a term that I use, and it is the "lesbian" part of the term that makes me think of a TS when I do hear it. This is why I am confused when I hear a CD use the term.

You do have a point about referring to CDs as "she" rather than "he". I refer to my own SO as "she" in this forum sometimes depending on the context, and I certainly address her by her femme name when she is dressed. You're correct, this is a question of courtesy, since it is odd to address someone who is fully dressed by his guy name. And in my case, I respect that my SO identifies as both genders, and so when I refer to her as a "she" it is more than just being courteous. When I use the gender pronouns I do refer to an internal gender ID though, and not a biological sex.

I do think of the term "lesbian" as referring to a biological sex, and crossdressers are not genetic women. TSs who are undergoing HRT even if they don't have SRS yet (or if they never will because they can't for a variety of reasons), and who have made a commitment to live 24/7 are not genetic women either. But, they've gone as far as they possibly can, given current medical constraints, to align their physical bodies to their gender ID. Therefore, in my view they have every right to consider themselves lesbian if they are attracted to women.

But a CD who also cherishes his male persona? No. Using the term "lesbian" is confusing at best, and some might even view it as making a mockery of both the genetic women and the TSs who have made a commitment to live as women. Further, some may even view it as being offensive in the same way as "*******" and "chick with dick" are offensive. If "male lesbian" is said lightheartedly in jest, that's fine as long as everyone understands it is a joke. But to repeat a point I made in my prior post, I doubt that most CDs who call themselves lesbian do say it as a joke, regardless of the light way in which the topic was introduced in this particular thread. And as often happens in any forum, the people who are addressing the topic in this thread are addressing the larger picture and not just Eddy Izzard.

Again, if a married CD seriously considers himself a lesbian and his wife has no objection to this? That's fine. But to go around saying that hetero dressed CDs are lesbian as is often said in this forum is too much of a stretch for me. It's like saying they are straight, when they have sex with men while dressed.

[Momarie]

. But to go around saying that hetero dressed CDs are lesbian as is often said in this forum is too much of a stretch for me. It's like saying they are straight, when they have sex with men while dressed.

I agree.

I also think FAB lesbians deserve their own space based on their life experiences apart from the "male world".
I believe one should embrace who they are without treading on others.

[kellycan27]

What's wrong with addressing a cder as He? According to a lot of them .. they are men who just like to wear the clothing and have no desire to be a "her". Are we just to assume that everyone who dresses as a girl wants people to consider them a girl? Maybe instead of making an assumption we should just refer to them in a manner such as he/she ( circle which applies to you). You can't always tell the players without a program. This way we may be able to avoid alienating either one side or the other. Once we know who's who we can address them accordingly

Kelly

[Melody Moore]

Sophie, we KNOW this thread started off from a quote made by a comedian the sad part is that
there are male to female crossdressers who claim to be a 'Male Lesbian" or "Lesbian Male". And
also here you are arguing against a natal female who has solid facts to prove that there is no
such thing as a "Male Lesbian" and I have also posted proof that my own lesbian community does
not accept MtF Cross-dressers as lesbians because they are not really females, however they do
accept pre-op MtF Transsexuals as females because they are also genuine females they can trust.

There are far too many MtF Crossdressers who do take themselves far too seriously and fail to even
realise the truth about who they really are and their sexual orientations.

The fact is that a Birth Male who has not been diagnosed with GID and is just a cross-dresser IS nothing
more than a heterosexual male when they are with a female. A MtF Crossdresser with another man is also
nothing more than a gay man with another gay man - these are simple facts of life that some people here
just have to face up to. And if you missed this post if mine, then I urge you to go back and read it.

Because the reality is if you believe that you are a "Male Lesbian" then you really are dreemian

Thanks for the new label Reine - I am seriously going to use this one from now on. Thanks

[ReineD]

What's wrong with addressing a cder as He? According to a lot of them .. they are men who just like to wear the clothing and have no desire to be a "her". Are we just to assume that everyone who dresses as a girl wants people to consider them a girl?

Many CDs have an elastic internal gender ID, unlike TSs and cisgenders. To persist in "he-ing" a CD when she is dressed is not being sensitive to her desire to present as a woman. Do all CDs feel this way? Likely not. We have several CDs here who have male names, and I would never refer to such CDs as "she". Using "he/she" is not a bad idea in a general sense, but it is bulky and it assumes the CD always identifies as a mixture of both internally. This is not always the case.

I'm pretty sure that most people here prefer to be referred to as a "she" (assuming for the closeted CDs that their time on this site is their girly time), and I trust that if they didn't, they'd change their user name, or find another way to tell us, such as posting something in their signatures.

[kellycan27]

Many CDs have an elastic internal gender ID, unlike TSs and cisgenders. To persist in "he-ing" a CD when she is dressed is not being sensitive to her desire to present as a woman. Do all CDs feel this way? Likely not. We have several CDs here who have male names, and I would never refer to such CDs as "she". Using "he/she" is not a bad idea in a general sense, but it is bulky and it assumes the CD always identifies as a mixture of both internally. This is not always the case.

I'm pretty sure that most people here prefer to be referred to as a "she" (assuming for the closeted CDs that their time on this site is their girly time), and I trust that if they didn't, they'd change their user name, or find another way to tell us, such as posting something in their signatures.

And we have many with female names as well, who don't identify as women. Doesn't matter to me, I was just saying that it's hard to know who wants what? "Assuming" may be okay, but it still goes back to my point ( silly as it was)

[kimdl93]

Speaking only for myself, as a CDr leaning more towards the I want more than the clothes end of the spectrum, I've had several women ask me if I prefer he or she when en femme. I aways prefer she/her, but my feelings aren't wounded if I'm called a he. I find most SAs automatically call me mam or miss.

[sara.s]

If I am dressed and kiss a GG, it would be a heterosexual kiss to me, but would it be lesbian thing to her and any onlookers?

On another note, say i am at a bar and a guy tries to flirt with me.. what is the appropriate thing to say?
A) i am heterosexual
B) lesbian
C) i am not into guys
D) lesbian trapped in a mans body
E) I am sorry I am a Gynephile
Guy: omg, What is that.. something like pedeophile?
Me: No no...It means I love women
Guy: Hell yeah, I am a gynephile too..

F) I am a dreemian
Guy: what are you dreaming about?
Me: I am DREEMIAN, which means i love to dress as a woman and make love to a woman..
Guy: Fag


I am just trying to be humorous here please don't be hard on me.

[ReineD]

^ There'd be no point in using any language in a bar that people don't hear on TV. lol. They'd think you're weird if you said anything other than C) I'm not into guys. "Heterosexual" might even be too big a word for some people.

(you misspelled "dreemian". lol. It's with two "e"s. )

And we have many with female names as well, who don't identify as women.

Kel, you should start a thread, asking which of all the female-named members here do not wish to be either addressed by their femme name when out in public, or referred to as "she" in here. Then, we'll know!

[sara.s]

1 more Option..
G) interrupt him, and ask him whether i pass and look sexy!!, did my makeup correctly, added right amount of blush blah blah blah.... and finally buy him a beer as a thank you note

Kel, you should start a thread, asking which of all the female-named members here do not wish to be either addressed by their femme name when out in public, or referred to as "she" in here. Then, we'll know!

I wouldn mind being addressed as he in cd meet or on this site (we all know who i am)... but in public its a different story..

[vetobob9]

But Sophie, there's the difference. I don't think anyone would fault a CD who says he is a male lesbian if he says it jokingly and others know it is a joke. And it may well be that others here says it jokingly as well, but I'm under the impression that some CDs do think they are lesbian. It just doesn't make sense to use this term, unless we are prepared to change the meaning of the word 'lesbian'. A wife whose acceptance is precarious, will believe that if her husband thinks of himself as a lesbian, then it must surely mean he believes he is a woman. It's just a confusing term, even if it is a fun thing to say.

A more accurate way to describe the sexual preference of a CD who likes women (and who doesn't like to think of himself as male when dressed), is "gynephile" (a lover of women). Also, I quite agree with Lorileah's point. Any CD who uses his male parts when having sex with women while dressed is not behaving like a lesbian.



When I hear the term "male lesbian", I think of a pre-op TS who is still a biological male although this is waning due to HRT, since she has no functioning penis. The 'lesbian' part identifies her as a woman, not a man, and it is just a question of time before the 'male' part is dropped. And of course a post-op (or non-op) TS can drop the 'male' part and simply say she is a lesbian. (There are TSs who for a variety of reasons cannot have SRS).



It is not the people in this thread who are saying that CDs are not included in the lesbian community. It is the lesbians themselves who do not want relationships with men who have penises. (Generally speaking). I'm sorry, but it is what it is. The people in this thread who are arguing against using the term "male lesbian" are simply advocating for a term that better reflects the reality of life in the lesbian community. Honestly, any CD who walks into a lesbian bar and announces himself as a male lesbian, wouldn't be taken seriously. And if he is married to a hetero GG, then his wife won't take kindly to being the second half of a lesbian couple.

... but, if both partners are OK with any term they wish to call themselves, then all is good!

I think it interesting that lesbians changed the meaning of the word marriage, and now some lesbians may be complaining that some people might be trying to change the meaning of the word lesbian.

Most interesting.

[kimdl93]

I rather doubt that any lesbians participated in this discussion.

[kellycan27]

^ There'd be no point in using any language in a bar that people don't hear on TV. lol. They'd think you're weird if you said anything other than C) I'm not into guys. "Heterosexual" might even be too big a word for some people.

(you misspelled "dreemian". lol. It's with two "e"s. )





Kel, you should start a thread, asking which of all the female-named members here do not wish to be either addressed by their femme name when out in public, or referred to as "she" in here. Then, we'll know!

Now we have people who say... it depends on the setting on whether they want to be called him or her There's no answer !

[Sophie86]

And we have many with female names as well, who don't identify as women. Doesn't matter to me, I was just saying that it's hard to know who wants what? "Assuming" may be okay, but it still goes back to my point ( silly as it was)

It's very simple. If the person is using a femme name on the forum, use femme pronouns. If the person is out and about presenting as female, use femme pronouns. If they still want to be addressed as 'he' while dressed as a 'she', they'll let you know. Very few would feel that way.

Back on the subject of the term "male lesbian"....

I have not gotten a satisfactory answer to the question of why this phrase does not fall under the same rule as using femme nouns and pronouns when referring to us. 'She', 'her', 'lady' and 'girl' are okay, but not 'lesbian'. It's widely agreed that while presenting as women it is proper for us to use the women's bathroom. We can invade that women's sanctuary, but for some reason we can't appropriate the term 'lesbian' to describe our sexual attraction towards women while presenting as female. There's no logic in that.

The OP asked what does the term "male lesbian" mean to you. I see a lot of people trying to rationalize their negative reaction to the term by saying that CDs can't be lesbians because we're not really female (duh), or that the term is offensive to some third party. No, that's not it. If you want me to understand the real issue here, tell me why the term offends you.

[Lip5tick_Li5a]

I've never seriously called myself a male lesbian, but I tend to have a lot of lesbian friends and I've been called a "guydyke" more than a few times. Even one of my gay male friends remarked that I was like a lesbian in a guy's body. But I'm not claiming this as an identity or anything, I'm just a boy who happens to connect really well with lesbians. I don't analyze WHY this is. If the people who I happened to befriend are gay girls, then whatever. They're awesome to hang out with.

Though it does become a complication when I like them BETTER than straight girls and want to be exclusive, but that's life. I'd never try to cross orientation barriers on the flimsy excuse that I "feel" like a lesbian. Besides, there are always bisexual girls who are like the universal blood type and have what I like about lesbians but with the hope of a real relationship.

[eluuzion]

It always strikes me a little funny when I read all of these discussions/debates emphasizing the importance of being identified "properly", when many of the participants involved use an alias.

I was just thinking, or maybe just pretending I was...but

I have been a ("whatever I am") for over 20 years. After being a member here and absorbing all of the different variations in "titles" and explanations for each, I still have no idea what I technically "am", or for that matter what anybody here really is for sure. It does not seem many here really know either, what they "are" for sure, on any given day.

In most of the threads/posts I read, for me, the poster's "proper" title was irrelevant to grasping the topics and points presented. The central understanding is that the information shared all revolves around issues stemming from wearing female clothing on a body that is...or began as...a male body, right? In my mind, any person associated with that issue, regardless of current "status" has topical feedback to offer. If you turn out to be an alien from outer space that wears female clothing, it still has relevance here, right? Or, did I miss something?

Anyway, there is only one logical way to completely resolve these endless member debates about to which category each person "technically" belongs. It does not require a genius, just simple logic and common sense. Each person simply gets their very own unique category. Everybody by default, is "right".

There...all better.

Of course that puts all of us back where we all began...feeling "all alone" in the world by not having anybody like "me" to talk to. But hey, at least we all end up being "right"...right? left?

Yo...I am not complaining here, or intend any disrespect, as I do find it entertaining to observe, so feel free to continue...

Just a thought. Not trying to invite any argument. If you are...I'll save us both some time..."I give, you 'Win'"...there, all better.

[crystalann]

It seems like an oxymoron, but what do I know?

[Melody Moore]

It seems like an oxymoron, but what do I know?

"Male Lesbian" just doesn't seem like an oxymoron, because it really is one by proper definition - so good call

[girlygirly]

I've had pretty good success with the term "male lesbian", and don't see it as a big issue like some here do. I'm a guy, I like to dress up like a girl, and I definitely have a girly side, because I don't own any men's clothing.

I don't like wearing dresses or anything like that in public, because I wouldn't feel like taking the time to try and pass. When it comes down to it, I dress pretty "butch" a fair bit of the time.

I have no interest in having sex with men, just like most female lesbians.

I have had sex with couple different women who claimed to have given up on men, and had started having sex with women. They identified with lesbians, and had only had sex with other women in the months prior to us having sex. I used my penis, and they seemed to enjoy it.

I don't take any of it all that seriously, but If a lady seemed offended I would just drop the term when I was around her.