Why do we get hell for dressing up and gg"s don"t

[Sophie86]

This thread should be a sticky, so we don't have to keep having this conversation every two weeks.

[ReineD]

GG:s dress in mans clothing all the time and know one say a thing.We dress in woman clothing and we get hell and are call all kind of names . WHY

You're new, but you need to know this is a tired, and wholly inaccurate argument.

We are now in 2011, not 1911. Times have changed and sorry, but you need to catch up. Women who wear pants purchased in women's stores do not dress in men's clothing. They are wearing clothes designed for them and that fit their curves. Transmen who buy their clothes in men's stores do wear men's clothing, and if you ask them, they'll tell you that society doesn't look all too kindly at them either.

[shesadvl]

This thread should be a sticky, so we don't have to keep having this conversation every two weeks.

lmao sophie.... exactly ya cracked me up...... just wish some would get on the same page and stop floggin a dead horse

and yes Reine its 2011 not 1911.....

[Sophie86]

They are wearing clothes designed for them and that fit their curves. Transmen who buy their clothes in men's stores do wear men's clothing, and if you ask them, they'll tell you that society doesn't look all too kindly at them either.

I was at the stable where we keep my daughter's horse this past Thursday. There was a woman vet there who was working with one of the other horses. She was wearing saggy blue jeans, a sloppy button up shirt, and had her hair cut rather short. Her shape was not curvy. She was definitely not a transman, even though her mannerisms are somewhat masculine. I didn't ask her whether she was a lesbian. Both her assistant and the owner of the stable (a woman who also tends to wear masculine clothing, even though she's married) behaved very naturally around her. They had no problem with how she presents herself.

Sitting here thinking about it, I believe the reason why women can dress that way without comment--especially an older woman like her-- is because they are seen as being asexual, whereas a man who dresses as a woman is seen as hyper-sexual.

^^ I want that theory in the sticky.

[SabrinaEmily]

You're new, but you need to know this is a tired, and wholly inaccurate argument.

We are now in 2011, not 1911. Times have changed and sorry, but you need to catch up. Women who wear pants purchased in women's stores do not dress in men's clothing. They are wearing clothes designed for them and that fit their curves. Transmen who buy their clothes in men's stores do wear men's clothing, and if you ask them, they'll tell you that society doesn't look all too kindly at them either.

So while I hate to rehash a topic that's been discussed a thousand times here with seemingly no one listening, I still see a lot more women who wear pants that were probably intended for men than men who wear skirts.

Which brings me to my real answer to the question. Women who wear pants, even men's pants, aren't seen as pretending to be someone they're not. Why would they be? Crossdressers are seen that way, and not without reason.

Like some other members here, I've gone out in a skirt presenting as male (and not only to stereotypically queer-friendly places, either) without ever having a real problem. (Actually, if by crossdressing you mean attempting to pass as female, I've never crossdressed in my life.) So I think (and not just from my own experiences) that it's better than many people believe, if they do what is actually equivalent to what many women do.

[sara.s]

Women don't crossdress, but some go drab.

[ReineD]

So while I hate to rehash a topic that's been discussed a thousand times here with seemingly no one listening, I still see a lot more women who wear pants that were probably intended for men than men who wear skirts.

There's no way to argue intelligently about this, since it is a matter of perception ... unless we each pledge to spend an afternoon at our respective malls and ask every woman who walks by where she bought her jeans. LOL

Honestly, I live in a college town and I can tell you that the women I see on campus most definitely aren't wearing men's Levis.

[mendy]

Men we just need to get over the way the rest of the world looks at us when we dress in a dress. When your out at first it is annoying but as you feel more compertable the less i care until the next time

[Phylis Nicole Schuyler]

VERY RARLY do I see woman wearing "clothes marketed for men"! when are you guys going to wake up and realize the days of woman wearing skirts and dresses exclusively are LONG GONE. Woman wear pants marketed to woman they are cut to a woman's figure the zipper is shorter and usually the pockets are useless.

until you go out and TRY wearing your femme clothing in public then you have no reason to whine! there is a member here who says he goes out in skirts and dresses all the time without makeup or wig or any attempt to pass as a woman without problems!

For men, women's department is good for tops and dresses, but the juniors section has less curvature built in to the clothes so that skirts and pants in junior sizes fit better. If you dress smartly, you should be seen as just a tall women. My SO is 5'11" and when she is with me wearing pants and ballcap, people call us gentlemen. She doesn't react and nothing more is said or noticed.

[linda allen]

Who decided what clothes are "women's clothes" and what clothes are "men's clothes"? Was there a committee appointed? Who appointed them and who was on the committee? When did this happen? Why wasn't I told about it?

Since women often wear pants, we can consider pants to be "women's clothes" if it makes us feel better. I've been wearing jeans from the women's department in women's sizes for dress jeans for several months. They look better on me but I mis the larger pockets.

Women wear T shirts so we can consider T shirts to be women's clothes. Same thing with sandals.

In the end though, people think what they want and some say what they want even when they shouldn't. I got a lot of grief when I startd wearing my hair long (like the Beatles) in the mid 60s.

[Billie Jean]

Everytime I have been out dressed I have had a beard. I still got compliments from GGs. Billie Jean

[ReineD]

OK ... here's another thought.

If women who wear pants (or jeans) are wearing men's clothes, then surely the CDs who wear such items, no matter if purchased in a women's clothing store, are also wearing men's clothes and are therefore not expressing their inner femininity? They are not crossdressed?

[Lucy_Bella]

I think most here have answered your question very well. I think we all must understand that the first purpose of clothing is for protection that's the main reason .. In time clothing has grown to not just only protection but sexual appeal between the sexes as many here find use in, when emulating. So its not the clothing that disturbs society it is the signal you send out ,men expressing fem ,females expressing masc. Bible thumpers and biggots or people who just hate for no apparent reason other than their life must really suck ,feel threatened to those of us who feel the need to express.

Don't think that women who do express receive welcome arms when doing so , dating one who does express, I now see first hand how cruel people can be .

[Jessica Who]

Sometimes they can if it is TOO manly -- they are accused of being butch or something

[Rachel Morley]

{edit: women} aren't trying to appear masculine or emulate a male; when women dress in male clothing, it's most often to do some kind of work, not for appearances sake.

I'm assuming that when you say "get hell" you're actually taking about (in a general sense) why men wearing women's clothes is looked upon differently than women wearing men's clothes. Like Sometimes_Miss says, when women wear guys clothes it's not done in the same way (trying to pass) it's more of a fashion choice or a work related thing.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think what you are also alluding to is the double standard, but then that's there because we still live in a male privileged world. As long as our society continues to view women as inferior to men, (especially at the higher levels of control in the world) for a lot of men, any effort to teach boys to be feminine will be condemned as degrading to boys. The social and gender hierarchy dictates that when a woman dresses in a way that is perceived to be masculine it's not considered a problem because she's going "up the scale". However, when a man dresses in a way that is perceived to be feminine it is a problem because (especially amongst other men) he's lowering himself because in their eyes dressing feminine is being less of a man, and being less of a man is considered a bad thing. In other words if you are male then there is an expection that you show a certain level of masculininty. That, IMHO, is the real reason why (as you put it) we "get hell" if we want to dress and present as the opposite sex.

[bredalee25]

VERY RARLY do I see woman wearing "clothes marketed for men"! when are you guys going to wake up and realize the days of woman wearing skirts and dresses exclusively are LONG GONE. Woman wear pants marketed to woman they are cut to a woman's figure the zipper is shorter and usually the pockets are useless.

until you go out and TRY wearing your femme clothing in public then you have no reason to whine! there is a member here who says he goes out in skirts and dresses all the time without makeup or wig or any attempt to pass as a woman without problems!

Aprilrain had you read my post and understood what It's meaning was you'd know pants are not what i'm talking about. How many times have you seen or heard about a GG wearing mens shirts and short skirts. Even shania twain did it in her video of man i feel like a woman which has the lyric mens shirts and short skirts in the song. So don't try to tell me woman don't wear clothes marketed for men.

[Alice Torn]

It is 2011, not 1911, but, if I had a time machine, I might choose 1911! Very good comments Rachel Morley, too.That seems to be the case.

[JulieK1980]

Perhaps this topic is an attempt at self justification by people that have some of their own issues with crossdressing. "It's okay that I do this, because those people over there are doing it too"

I don't see too many women wearing men's pants. I do however see lots of women wearing Women's pants. I see how this is complicated, but we live in a world where women have their own pants. Or perhaps I'm just being cynical and commenting in a thread I see repeated over and over and over........

[skirtsuit]

A guy wearing womens trousers is MtFtM crossdressing, which is not the same as wearing mans trousers.

It is interesting, as an aside, how much nice womens clothing is derived directly from menswear. I have been lusting over high heeled loafers lately to go nicely with a tweed skirt suit. Is that also MtFtM CDing?

Best,
SS

[MaryAnn40c]

I wear womens pants/jeans all the time now and no one says anything....people either dont know or dont care....

[SabrinaEmily]

There's no way to argue intelligently about this, since it is a matter of perception ... unless we each pledge to spend an afternoon at our respective malls and ask every woman who walks by where she bought her jeans. LOL

Honestly, I live in a college town and I can tell you that the women I see on campus most definitely aren't wearing men's Levis.

I have no doubt most of them aren't. Nor did I claim, as some thoughtlessly do, that women wearing pants are by that fact crossdressing. But how many men do you see wearing skirts as men? Almost certainly even fewer than women wearing men's pants.

(I don't think either is crossdressing, since I don't consider it crossdressing unless one is actually trying to pass as the other sex.)

Also, it bears repeating that I have gone out in a skirt while presenting as male, many times, and not just to specifically queer-friendly places, and I've never gotten anything resembling hell for it. So I'm not convinced of the truth of this thread's premise.

[ReineD]

^ Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you said you saw more women wearing men's pants than women's pants.

Yes, I do agree there are more women who wear women's pants than men who wear man-skirts. I think if there were as many men wanting to wear skirts as there were women who wanted to wear pants in the 40s and 50s, then there would likely be a style revolution among men's clothing. So the issue, I think, is there just aren't enough of you to make a strong impact.

Men and women generally do want to differentiate themselves. So, even if the majority of men got tired of wearing constraining pants, and the idea of wearing man-skirts did take off, the man-skirt styles would still be vastly different than women's skirts. And so how many CDs in this forum and everywhere else would be satisfied with wearing man-skirts? I'm venturing a guess that most would refuse to wear them, and would still rather cross the gender clothing barrier by wearing skirts styled for women. So, the issues would still not be any different than they are now.

I think instead we need to work on laws that recognize transgender rights, better education in schools about gender variance and more positive exposure in the media. But, this does require some degree of activism that I think few people here are willing to engage in, since they are so deeply in the closet.

It is a quandary. And it is unfortunate.

[Donna1]

i just wish I had a girls wordrobe!!!! LOL!!!

[jillleanne]

Because woman are not trying to present themselves as men. Simple.

[Vickie_CDTV]

Sitting here thinking about it, I believe the reason why women can dress that way without comment--especially an older woman like her-- is because they are seen as being asexual, whereas a man who dresses as a woman is seen as hyper-sexual.

^^ I want that theory in the sticky.

It is that, and the fact regardless that masculinity is more valued and femininity is seen as inferior; regardless of how accepting a society may be of others who are different, I still can't think of any society where this isn't true.