Why do we get hell for dressing up and gg"s don"t

[Babeba]

Am I the only person who kind of pictured a man and a woman dressed up in the same outfit with a thread title like that? With the guy getting a lot of flak and the girl not?

Aprilrain had you read my post and understood what It's meaning was you'd know pants are not what i'm talking about. How many times have you seen or heard about a GG wearing mens shirts and short skirts. Even shania twain did it in her video of man i feel like a woman which has the lyric mens shirts and short skirts in the song. So don't try to tell me woman don't wear clothes marketed for men.

Bredalee, when 'Man, I Feel Like a Woman' came out there was a real fad for oversized button down shirts tied in ways to make them hug feminine curves; ways and sizes which men would never wear those shirts. Shania Twain's song played on gendered ideas about how one could take some of the priviledges of masculinity and revel in them as a female, like complete freedom of attraction, for instance. It was meant to be super cheeky with saying 'Man, I feel like a woman!' Since then Boy Shorts have been popular (brief underwear that had a much longer side than your usual bikini, but never quite anything that you would get the average guy to wear) as well as the Boyfriend Jacket/Boyfriend Cardi - big, slouchy, comfy oversize warm things that look like you took them from your boyfriend's couch before you left his place and say more about the fact that you HAVE a boyfriend who is so nuts about you he doesn't mind you taking his things, it helps show everyone you're his (which has a lot of interesting male/female passive/dominant undertones to it as well).

[DeeDeeB]

When I went to public school, boys wore slacks and girls wore skirts or dresses. That was the dress code and anyone breaking it was sent home. Since then, women have fought for the right to wear slacks and suits (men's clothes) and have won that right. Meanwhile, gays fought for their rights, as well as minorities, and have gained considerable acceptance. I watched it happen and supported them the best I could. At the same time, most of us cds stayed in the closet (myself included) and have tried to grab on to the coat tails of the GBL movement. The T was added by a tg who met with HRC and convinced them our concerns were in sync with theirs.

Gender identification has gained protection in many states from hate crimes, but until we get federal protection from employment discrimination, we still are at risk. Trans gender identity is still considered a psychosis by the psychiatric community which is a major snag too. We have an opportunity to change that in the next edition, so look into how you can affect that.

I want to thank all you girls who are "out and proud" and I hope to join your ranks soon. That is the only way we will gain acceptance from the general public. That, and support equal rights legislation for all people.

Dee

[Babeba]

When I went to public school, boys wore slacks and girls wore skirts or dresses. That was the dress code and anyone breaking it was sent home. Since then, women have fought for the right to wear slacks and suits (men's clothes) and have won that right. Meanwhile, gays fought for their rights, as well as minorities, and have gained considerable acceptance. I watched it happen and supported them the best I could. At the same time, most of us cds stayed in the closet (myself included) and have tried to grab on to the coat tails of the GBL movement. The T was added by a tg who met with HRC and convinced them our concerns were in sync with theirs.

Granted, I wasn't around back then - but wasn't one of the big points of the Stonewall Riots (pivotal moment in the Civil Rights movement leading to support for gay rights) the fact that many crossdressers at the Stonewall were arrested and couldn't just slip back into the crowd? Wasn't that a big part of the riots, with protesters trying to get them released?

I want to thank all you girls who are "out and proud" and I hope to join your ranks soon. That is the only way we will gain acceptance from the general public. That, and support equal rights legislation for all people.

Dee

Dee, I TOTALLY agree with you! Equal rights for all is the only way to do it up right!

[Rachel Morley]

It was meant to be super cheeky with saying 'Man, I feel like a woman!' Since then Boy Shorts have been popular (brief underwear that had a much longer side than your usual bikini, but never quite anything that you would get the average guy to wear) as well as the Boyfriend Jacket/Boyfriend Cardi - big, slouchy, comfy oversize warm things that look like you took them from your boyfriend's couch before you left his place and say more about the fact that you HAVE a boyfriend who is so nuts about you he doesn't mind you taking his things, it helps show everyone you're his (which has a lot of interesting male/female passive/dominant undertones to it as well).

Now that is a very interesting comment. Yes, I totally agree ... there is so much more going on when you go a level deeper. I think I would love to have a late night philosophical conversation with you over a glass of wine ... although you might find me listening intently more than me talking

[KellyJameson]

The reasons are hidden within those that are giving you hell. My hair is long and from the back I have been mistaken for a women and have had men make comments when walking behind me only to become angry from embarassment when they realize I'm not. Some girlfriends have found it to be sexually confusing to be attracted to a man that looks feminine because it leaves them wondering if they are lesbian and whether I would be able to protect them from a masculine looking male. Some men feel that I do a poor job representing men as " strong" so take away from the image they want to project to the world and more importantly have of themselves. In every case the reasons are rooted in fear.

[Pythos]

To those that keep harping on the point that women that wear men's styled clothing (EVEN IF MADE FOR WOMEN) are not presenting as men, do us a favor.

Get into your skirts, hose, heels, and blouse and DO NOT wear a feminine styled hair, but a unisex style (oh wait, that's right there is no unisex style hair, there is butch or fem it would seem), minimal to no makeup, and act like a man.

See how far you get before you are imediately put down, ridiculed, and sent on a trip to the house of pain.

My style is basically the reverse of when a woman chooses to not wear makeup, wear clothing designed off of men's styles, and not shave. In my Clubbing circles I have a following, several guys have actually copied the concept, and I have attracted a great person. But that is in the clubbing circuit. My style is also very very fem.

Could I go out among Joe public like that? Not likely. Could I wear a skirt in an otherwise masculine style? Not at present, and that is because of the aforementioned numbers. We need numbers to be able to wear what we want. I do what I can. I have worn skirts in an otherwise male fashion, and I wear leggings daily.

What give the bad names for CDers are the "freaky kind" the ones that give a bad impression. The overly flamboyantly catty, and down right silly kind. The ones that to the GGs are more an insult to women than a honorable appearance.

But about the point about the women not trying to emulate men. No they are not, because they don't need to to "blend in". If a CD can pass and blend in, then he is doing pretty damned good, but really nothing in the name of men getting more Latitude in their presentation and style.

[SabrinaEmily]

Pythos, I'm glad I reread your post carefully, because I was about to think that no one read what I wrote once again. But apparently you have been walking the walk on this one, since you have gone out in a skirt as a male, unlike most of the people who complain on these threads.

As I said, I don't think the situation is as bad as you think it is, though maybe it's different in your area (and I shouldn't let my opinion be skewed by the "San Francisco" part of your location, because there are plenty of places in the Bay Area where I wouldn't want to go out in a skirt either.)

Personally, I hate heels, and the weather was too warm for hose at the time, but I did go out in a skirt and blouse recently without trying to pass as female, and didn't have any problems, which is consistent with every other time I've done so.

[Samantha W]

I think my signature line says it well,

[Pythos]

Madonna, hit the nail on the head with that statement. What is sad are the women that go along with this notion.

[Ellyn]

Simply put; Over recent eras the expectations of women have fallen, brought about by the anti-woman "feminists movement", while the expectations of men have remained higher, and thus the standards bar is higher for men.

GG:s dress in mans clothing all the time and know one say a thing.We dress in woman clothing and we get hell and are call all kind of names . WHY

SALLY

[Shananigans]

Let me explain something...

Women wear clothes made for women. I wear women's jeans, shorts, pants from the women's department...

Why is it not crossdressing??

1. Probably because I don't visit forums to meet other people that wear jeans and pants.
2. I don't get caught up in a "fog" where I go out and buy a ton of jeans, post pictures of me in various jean poses, look at pictures of other people in jeans, and generally obsess on the jeans.
3. I don't go through the dilemma of what wearing jeans means for my mental health. Am I a man? Am I born in the right gender? What do these jeans mean for me?
4. I don't see the jeans as "part of who I am." I could stop wearing jeans at any time...I definitely would if they suddenly went out of fashion.
5. If women didn't wear jeans, pants, suits, etc....I WOULDN'T wear them either. The thought wouldn't even cross my mind that it is something that I would want to do because I like to wear things that other women wear. It makes me comfortable. The fact is that men don't normally wear "female clothes", and you do. It's an ugly fact, but it's the truth. If tomorrow, Cosmo told me that jeans were out and that any woman caught wearing them was "out of style." I would unceremoniously donate all of my jeans to Goodwill. If it was only common place for women to wear skirts and dresses, I'd be wearing skirts and dresses.
6. I could go on and on, but I don't need to...this is silly.

[sara.s]

If we don't care much about jeans/pants and don't like wearing them why are we annoyed when women wear it? This topic reeks of jealousy.

[MissTelegothika]

Hi there all,

Babeba - Nope. I imagined it as a picture too. Although mine was with a humurous stance.

As for the topic. I'd just like to chip in with that its probably true that GG's don't get flak on the whole nowdays as they still appear as women even when wearing trousers (pants) etc. Plus, clothing that is considered feminine (IE: a dress) isn't as practical as clothing that is considered masculine (IE: trousers.) Trousers are practical, dresses aren't. So its logical that society (especially in our present day world of relaxed fashions) would tolerate dress to trousers but not the other way round.

Also - a lady displaying a seemingly more masculine side may be seen as a show of strength of character etc. However a man displaying femininity may be seen as weak in the eyes of men and women. This is intriguing, as - if women are supposed to be as equal as men and vica versa nowdays - why isn't a feminine-man seen as being as valid as a masculine woman? I've heard a few arguments that have suggested that thats because women are still seen by men as being weaker. Women know this and are thus insecure, hence they feel uncomfortable when they see a crossdressing man as it reminds them of how society sees them and they want to distance themselves from that image.

Highly controversial arguement that, perhaps. I'm not sure If I agree fully with it.

I'd personally say that, in relationships though, men are expected to put up with their GG partner wearing masculine clothes & adopting traditionally masculine pursuits. However if a man crossdresses or admits to doing something traditionally feminine - its usually game-over for the relationship. I find that highly unfair & it angers me somewhat.

[Babeba]

Let me explain something...
5. If women didn't wear jeans, pants, suits, etc....I WOULDN'T wear them either. The thought wouldn't even cross my mind that it is something that I would want to do because I like to wear things that other women wear. It makes me comfortable. The fact is that men don't normally wear "female clothes", and you do. It's an ugly fact, but it's the truth. If tomorrow, Cosmo told me that jeans were out and that any woman caught wearing them was "out of style." I would unceremoniously donate all of my jeans to Goodwill. If it was only common place for women to wear skirts and dresses, I'd be wearing skirts and dresses.
6. I could go on and on, but I don't need to...this is silly.

This is pretty much the reason why I almost never wore trousers when I lived in the UK!

Simply put; Over recent eras the expectations of women have fallen, brought about by the anti-woman "feminists movement", while the expectations of men have remained higher, and thus the standards bar is higher for men.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by saying that feminist movements are anti-woman. Which feminist movement are you talking about, and how is it 'anti woman'? In what way have expectations of women fallen? Over the past hundred-odd years I can think of (from Florence Nightingale, Mary Seacole and other women who launched women out of homes and into modern nursing to wonderful people like Gloria Steinem and Judy Chicago through to third wave feminism with too many amazing people to name) I can only really think of rising expectations: rising life expectancies, infancy survival expectancies, career expectancies, lifetime earnings expectancies, access to clean water and shelter expectancies (though in many rural areas even in North America much less war-torn and drought-stricken nations this is not the case)... Or do you and I simply have different priorities?

Now that is a very interesting comment. Yes, I totally agree ... there is so much more going on when you go a level deeper. I think I would love to have a late night philosophical conversation with you over a glass of wine ... although you might find me listening intently more than me talking

Rachel, I'm sure that Crystal will tell you that I can fill enough conversation for three people!

[Shananigans]

Also, this topic completely excludes FTM CDs.

I think that the fact that there ARE FTM CDs and that they go about their way of dressing completely different than a GG that does not CD makes this thread a moot point.

In fact, just jump on over to their section and take a gander. The men there could probably set us all straight on this topic, and they could tell us exactly what's the difference between CDing and being a GG in jeans.

People need dem some edumacation.

But, I think they ran away from this part of the forum.

[girlygirly]

GG:s dress in mans clothing all the time and know one say a thing.We dress in woman clothing and we get hell and are call all kind of names . WHY

SALLY

GG's have more of a tendency to do it for fashion reasons, and don't try to pass as men, while men have more of a tendency to do it for sexual reasons or issues of gender confusion.

Rock bands have worn women's clothing for years, but get no grief because they mostly do it for issues of fashion. It's a costume, not a statement of gender.

When lesbians regularly dress in drab, they get noticed and called on it. I know several lesbians who have been taunted for not looking girly enough.

[ReineD]

Also - a lady displaying a seemingly more masculine side may be seen as a show of strength of character etc. However a man displaying femininity may be seen as weak in the eyes of men and women. This is intriguing, as - if women are supposed to be as equal as men and vica versa nowdays - why isn't a feminine-man seen as being as valid as a masculine woman?

Actually, there have been changes in the male population towards the more feminine. Men nowadays do many things that would have been thought feminine at the turn of the century: they change diapers, give bottles to their babies, help with the housework, do the laundry, cook, sew on missing buttons. A dad who cares for his daughter and does her hair, shops for her dresses, etc is not considered less valid as a man. In generations past, wouldn't a widow have relegated his children to a female relative to raise if he couldn't afford a nanny? Mothers raise their sons to help with the housework nowadays. This would have been unheard of before.

Doing the chores I've mentioned is no longer considered strictly a feminine thing to do, just as wearing pants and having a career is no longer considered strictly masculine.

Have some of these changes been reflected in men's appearance? I think so. Men wear pink shirts and people don't raise an eyebrow. There are skin care products for men. Men also color their hair to cover the gray. It's not out of the ordinary for guys to have long hair or wear earrings.

Just saying.

And Shannon .... I loved your answer!!

[Pythos]

Shananigans,

Do you mean to tell me a male, as a male, can openly wear a skirt, and or other items of feminine clothing, and NOT face a bunch of bull? This is what women are doing when they head out the door in clothing BASED off of MALE clothing. When she heads out the door wearing a flannel shirt, and so on. She is not trying to pass as a male, BUT she also does not face a barrage of insults, possible beatings and so on.

A guy going out in clothing patterned off of, or even directly from the women's aisle will face such. There is indeed a double standard.

I have a FtoM friend and HE even says this is true. HE can go out in what he wears on an absolute daily basis, and face absolutely NO BS, until he lets know he is FtoM. (which for some reason he does....I don't know why) But he will vouch with me that this double standard exists, and he thinks it is absolutely bogus that I cannot wear my skirts and such, without ridicule, and he can wear what he likes.

[Shananigans]

Shananigans,

Do you mean to tell me a male, as a male, can openly wear a skirt, and or other items of feminine clothing, and NOT face a bunch of bull? This is what women are doing when they head out the door in clothing BASED off of MALE clothing. When she heads out the door wearing a flannel shirt, and so on. She is not trying to pass as a male, BUT she also does not face a barrage of insults, possible beatings and so on.

A guy going out in clothing patterned off of, or even directly from the women's aisle will face such. There is indeed a double standard.

I have a FtoM friend and HE even says this is true. HE can go out in what he wears on an absolute daily basis, and face absolutely NO BS, until he lets know he is FtoM. (which for some reason he does....I don't know why) But he will vouch with me that this double standard exists, and he thinks it is absolutely bogus that I cannot wear my skirts and such, without ridicule, and he can wear what he likes.

I'm not saying CDs get a bunch of bull, because they do.

However, I have no idea of the history of my clothing really. My mom put me in a pair of jeans when I was probably in the first or second grade and I have been wearing them since then.

As a first or second grader, I did not sit and consider the history of my clothes and the fact that they may or may not have been modeled off the male design. I wore them because my mom said that these were the clothes that are appropriate for me to wear and though my tastes have changed, I still wear pretty much the same things.

As a CD, you pretty much make a very active choice to go against the grain of things. You choose to wear clothes that society has said, "Hmmm...that's not so appropriate for this day and age." So, this is the difference between a CD and a GG who wears jeans and a t-shirt.

I'm not saying CDs don't get flack for what they do, but what I AM saying is that our two experiences in clothing matters are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

When you say, "A guy going out in clothing patterned off of, or even directly from the woman's aisle face such [abuses]. There is indeed a double standard." I agree it's not fair that people can't just wear what they want. But, just because it isn't fair does mean that I am CDing. Now, if I bound my chest, wore pants designed for a man's shape (shopped in the man's department), wore men's shoes, and donned a male haircut...sure, I would be CDing.

But, I've never really seen women do this. I suspect they are out there, but they are probably FTM TS that I can't "read" very well.

I'm sure some FTMs TS will say that women CD, but I'm also pretty sure that a lot of them will say that there is a big difference in me putting on my "painted on" skinny jeans, boots, and a flannel shirt that is unbuttoned so low that I am about to fall out of it...and the FTM that is wearing loose men's jeans, men's boots, and a bulky flannel shirt with a bound chest.

It just seems very distinct to me.

Again, CDs have it hard and I'm not saying that they don't. But, y'all aren't going to get your way by pissing off GGs by saying they do exactly the same thing. Because, as we have seen, most people just don't agree with this statement and it gets you nowhere.

The big distinction (and I don't know why people can't see it) is that GGs are conforming to a societal expectation and CDs are bucking against it.

Good for you guys and all of that...I complete support it and that's why I am here. HOWEVER, I'm just wearing what my momma put me in when I was getting ready for school in the second grade. I have "big girl" jeans now, but I still pretty much follow the "what a girl should wear" type of thing.

I literally have no attachment to jeans, slacks, etc. I wear them because people say they are cool and I want to look cool. If I woke up tomorrow and jeans were no longer cool, I'd throw them out.

CDs on the other hand go in a completely different direction all together. They go with what is completely not accepted and maintain those clothing items even though they are unaccepted and get poor reception from most women and men of society.

These are the distinctions. I can't make it any more plain than that.

[Boo]

I actually don't know .....

[ReineD]

Pythos, read this post #47: http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...=1#post2621060

Even if the majority of men wore man-skirts, the issues would still be there .. not because there is a double standard, but because fundamentally men and women do wish to differentiate themselves visually. Apart from the different ways we look in the raw, our external presentation choice is the only way to emphasize the gender differentiation.

You may well be one of the few members here who would be happy wearing man-skirts and looking just like all the other men who wear them (pretend for a moment that they do). But the majority of CDs here would still want to wear the girl skirts, and so there would still be bias against them.

I suppose the only way to have true equality, would be for all of us to adopt the exact same styles (doesn't matter if it is pants or skirts .. pick one and everyone wears it): same colors, same fabrics, same styling. But even then, the women's clothes would have to be tailored differently than the mens' in order to accomodate their body shapes, and so the CDs would still want to buy these clothes and wear forms and hip pads in order to fit into them and look like women. And we'd still have the same issues: bias against the CDers.

So then I guess the only way around that would be to make it fashionable for all men to have long hair, wear breast forms and hip pads, and so in addition to having all the clothes be the same colors, fabrics, and styles, they would now all be tailored the same as well.

But then there would be no possibility to crossdress, and we'd have a forum full of unhappy campers.

It's not about double standards. It's about the two genders wanting to differentiate themselves, except the CDs who want to go to the women's side.

[sara.s]

I actually don't know .....

are you really a cd? who are you?

[Pythos]

Okay.

So a girl at age two is put in pants, and throughout her life there is really no issue.

So tell me what happens to the family that alternatively puts their son in skirts, dresses, or pants. Think about this.

Could this be another reason why there is this double standard, because it is from day one instilled in everyone?

Reine, If this drive to differentiate were so innate as you say, then why did women start wearing pants? Why would they start wearing something that was masculine from the get go? (curiously enough if you look at clothing history, as I have done here in the past, Men wore lace, skirts, tights, stockings, high heels, makeup, and so on.)

That drive to differentiate more often than not manifests in the form of outright sexism, and or bigotry, at least as far as I can tell.

Something else that happens to men if they choose to dare cross the gender clothing line as men....their mental sanity is called into question. This to my knowledge does not happen to a GG that chooses to wear pants predominately.

[Aprilrain]

Something else that happens to men if they choose to dare cross the gender clothing line as men....their mental sanity is called into question. This to my knowledge does not happen to a GG that chooses to wear pants predominately.

Why DO you guys want to wear woman's clothing how weird!!!! ; )

the reason is simple Pythos Masculinity is seen as strong Femininity is seen as week, woman wanting to be stronger is understandable woman who want to emulate men (though that is NOT want is going on when a woman puts on female pants) makes sense, she is trying to gain more power for herself in the social structure. NOW all of that is a bunch of male ego baloney but thats the unstated wisdom (male wisdom....HHmmm??) Men wanting to be weaker or move DOWN the social hierarchy is seen as insanity. Why would you want to give up your elevated status as a male??????

BUT who made all this shit up to begin with? Woman? NOT! So if you want to complain go do it to the rest of your bros out there who are likely to be the ones to beat you up for a public display of male femininity!

As far as woman wearing pants is concerned its more practical in a thousand different situations than a dress or skirt and THAT is the reason woman were pants!

[Melissa Jill]

The vast majority of time we don't get hell for it. GGs seem to endure a lot more scrutiny for what they wear, such as dressing too ****ty/tarty/etc