Well then thanks for being honest...
You really think that is the reason people reacted, including me? Language is important. There was an unfortunate turn of phrase in the opening post that was hurtful to a lot of members. The OP should have realised that from the reaction and maybe restated her question.Originally Posted by arbon
Last edited by Frances; 10-19-2011 at 01:42 PM.
It's Frances with an E, like Frances Farmer. Francis is a man's name.
there is truth that there is a conflict between people that don't want srs and those that do..
No one "defines" the label transsexual...i get it...
But if you don't want srs because you desire to keep your penis(pls don't misinterpret this...being broke, fearing surgery, having family issues are not desiring to keep your penis...many ts people are forced by circumstance to miss out on srs),
then i think its fair to say there is a good chance that the person is just fantasizing about being transsexual..fantasizing about "going all the way" is pretty common..
If that makes you feel bad, then you need examine how you feel about yourself..each one of us deals with "i am yam what i yam" differently... but trying to claim you are transsexual and calling life affirming surgery cosmetic is something that is hard to accept without a response
This is why there is an ongoing debate about what it means to be transsexual
After reading the OP post I find the lackadaisical approach to these issues extremely bizarre. Under any standards of care no matter what organization, one of the signature criteria is the desire to obtain a female body by surgery.
Read this from Wpath Standards of Care
"The Development of a Nomenclature.
The term transexxual emerged into professional and
public usage in the 1950s as a means of designating a person who aspired to or actually lived in
the anatomically contrary gender role, whether or not hormones had been administered or
surgery had been performed. During the 1960s and 1970s, clinicians used the term true
transsexual. The true transsexual was thought to be a person with a characteristic path of atypical
gender identity development that predicted an improved life from a treatment sequence that
culminated in genital surgery. True transsexuals were thought to have: 1) cross-gender
identifications that were consistently expressed behaviorally in childhood, adolescence, and
adulthood; 2) minimal or no sexual arousal to cross-dressing; and 3) no heterosexual interest,
relative to their anatomic sex. True transsexuals could be of either sex. True transsexual males
were distinguished from males who arrived at the desire to change sex and gender via a
reasonably masculine behavioral developmental pathway. Belief in the true transsexual concept
for males dissipated when it was realized that such patients were rarely encountered, and
thatsome of the original true transsexuals had falsified their histories to make their stories match
the earliest theories about the disorder. The concept of true transsexual females never created
diagnostic uncertainties, largely because patient histories were relatively consistent and gender
variant behaviors such as female cross-dressing remained unseen by clinicians. The term "gender
dysphoria syndrome" was later adopted to designate the presence of a gender problem in either
sex until psychiatry developed an official nomenclature.
The diagnosis of Transsexualism was introduced in the DSM-III in 1980 for gender dysphoric
individuals who demonstrated at least two years of continuous interest in transforming the sex of
their bodies and their social gender status. Others with gender dysphoria could be diagnosed as
Gender Identity Disorder of Adolescence or Adulthood, Nontranssexual Type; or Gender
Identity Disorder Not Otherwise Specified (GIDNOS). These diagnostic terms were usually
ignored by the media, which used the term transsexual for any person who wanted to change
his/her sex and gender.
The DSM-IV. In 1994, the DSM-IV committee replaced the diagnosis of Transsexualism with
Gender Identity Disorder. Depending on their age, those with a strong and persistent crossgender
identification and a persistent discomfort with their sex or a sense of inappropriateness in
the gender role of that sex were to be diagnosed as Gender Identity Disorder of Childhood
(302.6), Adolescence, or Adulthood (302.85). For persons who did not meet these criteria,
Gender Identity Disorder Not Otherwise Specified (GIDNOS)(302.6) was to be used. This
category included a variety of individuals, including those who desired only castration or
penectomy without a desire to develop breasts, those who wished hormone therapy and
mastectomy without genital reconstruction, those with a congenital intersex condition, those with
transient stress-related cross-dressing, and those with considerable ambivalence about giving up
their gender status. Patients diagnosed with GID and GIDNOS were to be subclassified
according to the sexual orientation: attracted to males; attracted to females; attracted to both; or
attracted to neither. This subclassification was intended to assist in determining, over time,
whether individuals of one sexual orientation or another experienced better outcomes using
particular therapeutic approaches; it was not intended to guide treatment decisions.
Between the publication of DSM-III and DSM-IV, the term "transgender" began to be used in
various ways. Some employed it to refer to those with unusual gender identities in a value-free
manner -- that is, without a connotation of psychopathology. Some people informally used the
term to refer to any person with any type of gender identity issues. Transgender is not a formal
diagnosis, but many professionals and members of the public found it easier to use informally
than GIDNOS, which is a formal diagnosis."
Or are we all just making it up as we go?
Note that the writers clearly distinguish between gender and sex. This distinction is at the root of a correct diagnosis of a person born transsexual.
Last edited by Kathryn Martin; 10-19-2011 at 02:33 PM.
"Never forget the many ways there are to be human" (The Transsexual Taboo)
The "Congruentialists" and the "Women with Penises" maybe?
"Never forget the many ways there are to be human" (The Transsexual Taboo)
Different people have different needs. Transgender is a very wide spectrum, but even within the realm of Transsexual, there is a spectrum. Many want to be able to live and act as a girl, but they don't want to give up the "package" below. Some want to get rid of the balls but not the stick, and some want to be able to perform sexually as a woman. Even the SRS procedures have different results. A procedure which lets you have female orgasms and a full clit can be very expensive. There are butchers who will give you the appearance but little or none of the fun.
Making that final transition is a dramatic choice, and most of those who make that choice are totally clear that this is what they want, even with any of the related consequences and requirements. Many have lived for several years as a woman and have done extraordinary things to raise the money for the expensive procedures, including adult films, adult web sites, or other variations on showing their transitioning body for profit.
Sulka and Shannon both funded their transitions with their films and part of the deal was that they would do some films that included "before" and "after" in the same films. You can see the differences just between procedures done 5 years apart. Some of the earliest SRS procedures were really bad, more like castration and emasculation with a trivial attempt to provide a shallow ditch. Most of the modern procedures are much better and have been more successful in terms of providing a positive post SRS experience.
This may be one of the reasons we are seeing more and more Transsexuals proceeding through the SRS procedures. Though I haven't seen as many movies featuring "before and after" scenes.
I don't think you were mean and apologize for implying everyone was being mean. It is only a few of the usual bullies that I find so irritating and I should have been more specific.
I do think the OP got the point within the first few replys, and really, hurtful? are the post ops here really so sensitive after all they have been through to justify some of the responses?
Probably because you say things like: "But I have to say, you don't even sound like a chick. Just another guy with a fantasy. " But you weren't attacking, your just saying right? Just not being as polite as you could be? A tough love kinda deal? Asking for advice or help here can be about as inviting as asking for it on the freerepublic board.
Why should people want advice from people that make them feel crappy about themselves? Hell, now some of us are not even real people. My opinion, some of the Post ops here are pretty full of themselves, and it is not an attack, I'm just saying.I just want to know because I swear the few real people here get so much flack from the fantasy people that its a good question.
I will speak only for myself here. I lived in total shame all of my life for being trans. I saw psychiatrists and psychologists in hope of finding a cure from age 16 on. I hated myself for it. When I finally realised that it was not going to go away at age 40, I tried real hard to accept it and overcome the shame.
I eventually came out to everyone and went on my path. I heard a lot of people asking me why could I not only be woman in my mind but not change anything else about my life and body, or why would I want to mutilate my body... over and over again. The answer is that I needed to communicate what was in my head to the rest of the world, clothed or naked, and that I didn't want to mutilate my body. It is not a question of want. I had to do it. I was essential, not cosmetic.
It's Frances with an E, like Frances Farmer. Francis is a man's name.
When I respond to threads like this I get attacked.
But indeed, SRS is not cosmetic. It is a permanent change to your physiology. You pee differently, you intercourse differently, your pool of partners is different, your orgasms are different, your hormone production is permanently altered, the way the world sees you is different (you will be put in a women's' prison for example)...etc... It's not simply having a flat front in women's jeans like some seem to think...
I have to agree with what Julie wrote about life after SRS and I am not going to debate this one but only say that even though I am having SRS early 2012 with Dr. C in Thailand, I still know I am a woman NOW, and nothing anyone says can change or discredit my womanhood be it pre or post op.
I also believe there are some who are too old, too weak, or have serious medical conditions, serious financial problems, or certain family issues that put SRS out of reach for them permanently or at least postpone it for a considerable period of time. BUT in my opinion, they are still women and none of us can claim otherwise.
Unfortunately, there exists a lot of time, a negative attitude between the post-op gals & the pre-op gals. The former believing them to be "true" women and the pre-ops as a lessor woman or not a woman at all - just pretenders. I sincerely hope that after my SRS I do not belittle or reject the pre-op gals as women like I see happening so often.
Just call Me: "W - O - M - A - N"
As King said: "I'm free at last, I'm free at last.
Thank God Almighty I'm free at last!"
In the MTFSo anyone questioning is not welcome here?
Just gang up and really let them know just how unwelcome they are so they don't come back???????
Where does it define a transexaul in this sub forum as only those that desire SRS? or that only those with such a desire can post here?
A lot of the TS (post ops to!!) DO POST IN THE CD SECTION by the way.
What a nice bunch of people
I picked out a post from someone that i felt could use a push and after my posts was vilified beyond belief
i was called Neanderthal, ugly, and worse, i was the subject of an entire thread about how to use the ignore button and how wonderful it is to not see my "blather"..
what a nice bunch of people...
so leave the generalizations out of it..
I apologize for generalizing, I should have been specific about which posts and who's.
....................
I just love how someone ask a simple question here or post their own thoughts or opinion and it turns into a big drama for the same people who always post things here and their post become totally none related to the oringal question posting. Some of you need to get a life and just answer the simple question with a positive helpful responce and also stop being negitive torwards other peoples postings.
oooops, I spoke too soon.
It was only a matter of time I suppose. I just thought it might be more time.
gawd stacie i wish it was a simple question!!! LOL
I really thought this was a nice place. But then I get attacked for saying that TO ME it would be cosmetic. Not to everyone else, or ANYONE else for that matter, but to me. I've been picked on my whole life, and I thought this was a safe place. But then I get called a freak, and all of those other things.
All because I mis-phrased something. I'm really sorry for that, truly. I meant no harm to anyone. But when I get attacked that way for a simple mistake, I don't know what to do. I'm just 18, and as one of the first posters said, I'm too young to even know if I'll still think that way later. Maybe in 15 years I'll change my mind and get it, I don't know.
All I wanted was to finally find some people who understand me, and now when I finally find them, I'm considered a freak? When it's implied that it's all just some fetish to me, (and it isn't at all) that really really hurts me.
I'm just happy I found out people felt this way now instead of later.
I posted earlier that you should be who you are and that is a wonderful thing. And not to go off upset. And you just hit a nerve here. I have to say if you are going to transition, you will have to grow a very thick skin as the real world can be much more challenging than a few of us bozos on a message board...
Dear Marygold,
PLEASE don't go away.
I apologize with all my heart and for everyone else here. Stick around PLEASE. This is a support forum. You will get support here, honest. Some of us are not as polite or considerate of a newbie's feelings as perhaps we might, but we are a minority.
Thank you,
Stephenie
I've grown up through the extremes. I knew I was transgendered, my parents knew, and the medical community knew.
After reading the OP post I find the lackadaisical approach to these issues extremely bizarre. Under any standards of care no matter what organization, one of the signature criteria is the desire to obtain a female body by surgery.
Read this from Wpath Standards of Care
Or are we all just making it up as we go?
Note that the writers clearly distinguish between gender and sex. This distinction is at the root of a correct diagnosis of a person born transsexual.
In 1962, even DISCUSSING it would have been a criminal act.
In 1968, only two movies about transsexuals existed, and Myra Breckenridge was more like a fantasy of a transsexual.
In 1974, I met my first drag queen. I still had never met or seen a transsexual.
In 1977, discussing it could still get the patient arrested, or result in loss of funding for his treatment (insurance & ability-to-pay programs wouldn't even permit the discussion of the possible diagnosis). I was in therapy at the time, and tried to bring it up, and they told me that they could not even let me finish the sentence. Even though I was suicidal and had tried to kill myself 3 times that year, I couldn't discuss the REAL reasons why.
1n 1980, I was in a 12 step program, and being gay or transgendered was no longer a criminal act, but there STILL were no books or resources available to find out anything about gender disphoria.
In 1985, I was able to engage in discussions about gender identity issues in a usenet newsgroup, and FINALLY met someone who was transgendered and was in the process of transition. She had gone to work for AT&T BECAUSE they had a strong diversity policy. She had started working there as a man, then, when she was living all BUT here time at the office as a woman, her therapist, boss, and team were introduced to her femme identity. It was rough for about 2 weeks, but then they just started relating to her as a woman.
1n 1989, I was fired from Fedex because I wore a Maid's dress to the company Halloween party. I was too graceful in heels, I'd shaved my legs, and I'd made the dress myself out of black bridal satin. It took one year of "counselling sessions". These were 1 hour monday, to be given a list of tasks and priorities, then on friday when the priorities were reversed and I would be formally reprimanded for the items not completed - even though I had to work 60 hours/week to accomplish 8 of the 10 things that were highest priority on Monday. It was very deliberate and calculated sexual harassment, specifically designed to coerce me into resigning. Ironically, I earned 3 Bravo Zulu awards, each for saving the company $1 billion/year, and was told that even if I earned 3 more in the next 90 days, it wouldn't be enough to get me off "probation". In effect, I could resign, or be fired, effective November 1. The team won one more Bravo Zulu award as well as the Malcolm Baldridge award for quality as a result of my work.
In 1989, I finally got a therapist to help me with the Gender Identity issues. My wife was having an affair and wanted a divorce, and had moved in with her boyfriend (taking the kids with her). She threatened to expose my dressing in court and to social workers, - which would have meant supervised visitation, or complete loss of visitation - but no reduction in child support (50% of my after tax income at the time).
In 1992, I moved to New York state, because Colorado had passed a constitutional amendment which effectively legalized harassment of gay and perceived gay people (including those who were transgendered). Later I found that New Jersey had even better protections.
In 1995, I was accepted into a leadership program, but I was told that if I wanted to be a leader, I had to quit dressing, both publicly and privately. I eventually blew away all measures and outperformed everybody, then told them I couldn't accept their terms and left the program.
In 1995-6, I started working in New York and lived right across the river in Jersey City. I was able to dress occaisionally, but not as often as I had hoped. Mostly because I was working insane hours to put new McGraw-Hill on the Internet, along with about 8,000 publishers who subscribed to a mailing list where I provided technical and business leadership, consulting, and support.
In 1997 I started working as a consultant and started gaining a LOT of weight. I shot up to almost 250 lbs. I stopped dressing publicly, and didn't really like how I looked in the mirror when I dressed in private. My off-again/on-again Long Distance part time relationship didn't help. By 9/11 2001, I was up to 325 lbs and couldn't fasten my seat belt in the airplane. Feeling trapped in my male body, the prospect dying of a heart attack didn't scare me as much as surviving a stroke or heart attack.
Ironically, by 1999, several companies had very aggressive diversity policies, and a few even covered some or of the medical procedures, but not the cosmetic procedures. They might cover the counseling, HRT, and SRS, but not the Electrolysis or the breast implants.
By the time I finally finished paying the child support, I had the choice of funding my retirement accounts or the medical procedures. Retirement seemed more urgent. Besides, I finally met a girl who supported my dressing, and wanted to get married. To make matters worse, I was losing much of my hair in front, and thinning in the back, making natural hair impractical.
It's really a wonder that I have survived let alone not transitioned. I was born intersexed - had the stick but no balls. I played with girls as much as I could, and didn't like playing with boys. When I was 11 the testacles dropped, and I tried unsuccessfully to push them back, many times. As my voice started to change and I started needing to shave, I got self destructive, turning to drugs. When I found out I was a bass, I went suicidal, drinking, drugging, and then going for walks down the center-line of a poorly lit 4 lane road, in a black overcoat and pants.
I avoided regular sex, focusing only on pleasing my partners. My first orgasm during sex was only because I was tied down and coudn't focus on her. When I hinted at being transgendered, she dropped me with a dear john note on the windshield of my car. Feeling more trapped in my male body than ever, I ended up in a psych ward for observation, outpatient counselling, and almost killed myself with a quarter pound of ground glass (still don't know how I survived that one). I quit drugs, but had a few relapses, nearly all were directly associated with feeling trapped in my male body.
Ironically, the turning point in my recovery was when I told my first wife about my dressing. She seemed OK with it, and I settled. Eventually, it was clear she WASN'T OK with it, and I found support through an AA/NA sponsor. My wife and I sought counselling and when it was clear that it wasn't going to work out, my sponsor challenged me to "come out", complete with a name, and multiple public appearances. The marriage ended, and my wife married her lover.
I moved to Denver and found a whole group who supported me in transition. I dressed as soon as I got off work and stayed dressed one way or the other until I left for work. It was the happiest and most wonderful time in my life. Unfortunately, all of that ended in a series of cascading events that ultimately left me alone and with little group support. A truly amazing transformation had taken place, but then I had to go back into the closet. I stopped caring, gained weight had a heart attack and a stroke. About a year ago I decided I wanted to be "14 in 14" size 14 in 14 months. I lost over 80 lbs and firmed up my waist. Just put on the size 14 pants yesterday. Still a bit big in the chest for size 14 tops.
In the test that was mentioned in this forum, I scored 385 out of 400 - pretty much - see doctor now.
Firstly, please understand that our resident grinch does not speak for every person who posts regularly on this part of the forums, she has very extreme views and has managed to insult the majority people who have posted here whilst I have been reading this section.
By the definitions in the last two editions of the World Professional Association for Transgender Health's Standards of Care, what you describe of your own situation would currently be described as Gender Non-Conforming rather than Transsexual but that does not lessen the reality of your situation nor does it (in and of itself) alleviate the very real Gender Dysphoria that you are experiencing. Luckily, those same SoC are not limited to supporting only Transsexuals but also those who are Gender Non Conforming.
You may well be feeling hurt by the vehement responses to your categorisation of Gender Affirmation Surgery as "purely cosmetic", but to those of us who are either seeking or have undergone this process, the trivialisation of its nature is equally hurtful.
I believe that the essential for you at the moment is to seek support for your very real dysphoria; if possible both with a therapist and with a transgender support group.
Check out this link if you are wondering about joining Safe Haven.
This above all: To thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any
Galileo said "You cannot teach a man anything" and they accuse ME of being sexist
Never ascribe to malice that which can be easily explained by sheer stupidity
While some of the post-op girls like to pretend that you have to have had SRS (or at least want it) to be a "real woman"(tm) the rest of us know better.
I completely understand where you are coming from. I used to feel that way myself... but as you walk this path, things ... change. What you will want tomorrow is not always what you wanted yesterday. What you wanted yesterday is not always what you want today. As you come to know yourself better, you will grow, and as you start to understand who you really are - you may well start to feel differently.
It is also true that trans acceleration is VERY real. As you start down the path, your plan will change, and develop, and you will want to do more, sooner than you ever expected. For me it was a bit breath-taking. I used to feel very much like you describe... today I am saving money for SRS.
But even without SRS you are still a girl... There are lots of girls out there who have not had SRS for a lot of very valid reasons. That doesn't mean that any of them are not real women... and if you choose to join their ranks, only the most bigoted among us would deny you your identity.
"I don't mind living in a man's world, as long as I can be a woman in it." — Marilyn Monroe
Hope is right.
Alot of people are posers. Your PM raised some red flags because of unfortunate word choice and you were making comments about a surgery before you've really taken steps to live your life as a female...nobody here is the gender police, but alot of people have suffered greatly for their identity, and are protective of it, rightly or wrongly
So i think it's great you have followed the thread, and as you can see, people here are supportive...opinionated, but supportive!
I have to agree with Hope. Everybody's situation is different and Pre-op's and Post-op's should learn to respect everybody. This is a forum to educate and get support for one another, not to bash each other. We all have to learn to get along in this world. SRS is not a cosmetic procedure, for some people it is a life changing situation. Some people complete the journey, some don't for personal reasons, but you should respect all because you are still a woman. As you begin your walk down the path, you will find out things will change as it did for me. You need to have an understanding Therapist who will help you and a strong support group.
Mackenzie, welcome to the sorority! Some of us are nice some of us are bitches ands some of us..... well it just depends on the day. (there's a lot of estrogen in here so watch out!)
and YOU thought the RLE was hazing for transsexuals....HA!, thats nothing!
I have seen that over and over again: The snow ball effect.
Last edited by Frances; 10-20-2011 at 11:09 AM.
It's Frances with an E, like Frances Farmer. Francis is a man's name.
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