Opinions on SRS?

[Kaitlyn Michele]

josie you are "tilting at windmills".

basically it seems you've already made a decision and want to argue your case as to why you are right..
i don't care what you do.. i wish you the best..medical technology is what it is..i have experienced what i experienced...and i shared it..

i honestly couldn't care less about vagina/vulva/labia blah blah.... all that thinking goes away...would you like that thinking to go away?? and just feel like yourself??
i can pretty much guarantee it will go away if you are ts and you get the same surgery..
who knows how people feel that get bulge reduction surgery? if anyone has done that, pls chime in...
have your surgery the way you want it, and move on

but how can you say you are actually weighing the benefits and then say to someone that shared their experience that it's not valid?
that bugs me...
feel free to worry about the inability of a recreating a cervix(they can't put me back in high school to experience that as female, i guess i shouldn't bother with transition), feel free to believe in a steady stream of girls you heard about from someone.(which i think is bs)..nobody is shooting you...the vagina is just a penis receptacle??? LOL...of course what woman would ever want to have that?? i think you have some soul searching to do around that one
You don't have to justify it to anyone but yourself..

beth..i completely agree with you.. at each of our particular ages we have to weigh the benefits... i was pleasantly surprised by how i felt afterwards, and i bet alot of women here say the same thing..
you may feel that at your stage in life, you don't need to go through all that... i can definitely sympathize with that..
it's all up to how you feel about your body and your self image a

[Katesback]

Once again this forum does not let me down on the entertainment. Literally there is not one place I can think of where one can sit and read the stuff that comes off peoples minds like it does here. The best one recently was that a steay stream of post ops are getting thier vaginas closed up. One went on to advance the idea that having a vagina is a LOT of work.

This stuff is priceless. I mean seriously. I guess that means that since the vagina is a lot of work its better to just keep the penis because its easier. I personally dont do a lot of work to maintain my vagina but hey I suppose if I had a penis it would be easier. Perhaps I should just jump on the bandwagon and get my vagina closed up.

In retrospect I should have just saved my money and kept my penis and thrown on a wig, some ill fitting ****ty clothing and five inch heels. Forgetand hormone therapy. I mean I could have taken the easy way and done it that way. I mean I am a woman if I say I am right? The easy way does seem like the more fruitful approach. By the way since I can be whatever I want since it is in my mind I also want to be a zebra. Please afford me the benefit of the doubt even though you see no hoofs or tail or strips. I am whatever I feel I am in my mind damm it.

[JulieK1980]

The choice a person makes in regards to SRS is a personal one, and one that is serious and should never be taken lightly. Whatever the choice is for the individual it is not for others to judge. We are each individuals, and wherever we fall on that TS spectrum (or insert personal belief of transgenderism here) it is a decision made for ourselves, as no one here can truly understand all of our unique situations. What is right for one person is most certainly not necessarily right for another, and no calling us freaks, or any other vitriolic nonsense will change that or even make it true for that matter. For some SRS is a requirement for them to thrive in the world, for others it is not. It doesn't make them "fake" or "pretend" it makes them different. It's sad and a little pathetic to read that here on a forum that is supposed to be for support.

[ReineD]

I am whatever I feel I am in my mind damm it.

Yes, you are, as are the rest of us. And you know what? It is constantly evolving. That's the beauty of it.

[Stephenie S]

OMG, what tripe!!!

Please, please, please, will pre-ops STOP talking like they know everything about what post-op is all about.

You DON'T know what it's all about. You don't. No one is attacking your sense of woman hood. We all know you feel that just as strongly as you think you do.

Post-op is something wonderful and beautiful. It does not need to be called elitist, nor holier than thou.

There are a significant number of gatekeepers (all male, I might venture to guess) who make statements like "a steady stream" of transexuals wanting to get sewn up. What a pile of unholy bull twaddle.

This whole business started several months ago when Kate stated that the REAL job of becoming a woman STARTS with surgery. She happened to be right. Ask ANY transgendered woman. This does NOT demean any pre-op nor their personal feelings about their gender identity. It just states a FACT. This is a fact you cannot know unless you:

A. Believe a post-op.
B. Experience it for yourself.

If indeed you do have surgery you will understand. Otherwise you have to believe someone with more experience than you, or continue on in ignorance.

Having a penis colors your whole life. The litmus test for femaleness starts with having a vagina. Ask any maternity doc. Penis = male. Vagina = female. This concept is ingrained in our society. It's ingrained in your head.

Does a pre-op feel feminine? Oh, you betcha. Every post-op has been there and done that. But the difference between hiding a penis and having a vagina is immeasurable. And, clearly, at least on this forum, indescribable.

Remember, every single post-op has had the experience of being both a pre-op and a post-op. Every single pre-op has only the experience of being pre-op.

S

[Hope]

How does having a vaginoplasty make you better accepted? Again, not a criticism, but a thought that plays in my mind too. Nobody knows what is "in your pants" and plays no part at all in the daily acceptance by other people. They are simply unaware of it. Specifically, I am referring to the vagina, not the vulva, so there are no give away male bulges.

You are certainly right that very few people will ever KNOW for certain one way or another what is in your panties. And hopefully those who do know are mature enough to be discrete about it.

But here is where it matters: You know.

I have come to the conclusion that passing, that seriously making this work is about 50% attitude, and 40% acquired skill, and less than 10 percent has to do with the roll of the genetic dice and the physical features you were given to work with.

You can learn all the tricks, you can be a master make-up artist, you can have a splendid wardrobe, and you can have all the surgery on all of the normally visible parts of your body you want... You could be 5'4, 110#, 34C boobs, with perfect hair and look completely indistinguishable from any other cis girl in the world... But if YOU don't believe it, if you don't KNOW it, if you have doubts about your identity (and lets be honest - all of us have SOME doubt) you will not be able to make this work, some fraction of the 50% that is attitude will be missing.

For some of us, having the proper equipment makes us feel complete, and proper, and "right" and that allows us to claim that full 50%... and go on with our lives. Some of us feel differently and are completely comfortable and confident w/o all the usual equipment... To which I say - "brava!" But I think that for most of us walking around with the wrong equipment - we may be the only ones who know - but we know, and that has an effect on the way we interact with the world.

And I guess that is my point - if having the wrong kit makes you feel like a fraud... even if ONLY you know - it still matters.

[ReineD]

I keep interjecting these little, nicey-nicey statements in here oblivious of what you all are talking about. But after reading Hope's post, a thought occurred to me so I'll post it at the risk of sounding like a complete idiot.

Let's remove gender from the equation for a moment and talk about nose jobs. Two people have large noses. One feels hopelessly self-conscious about it to the point it affects the way she deals with people. She won't look them in the eye, because she thinks all they see is her nose. This person would make the absolute best decision for herself if she gets rhinoplasty. The other person doesn't care less what her nose looks like. She doesn't need the surgery.

Ultimately, surgery benefits the person receiving it and contributes to her own happiness, not anyone else's. Why can't two transwomen, both of whom feel they are women to their core, each decide what is best for them? How can one person decide for the other that she will not be happy unless she has surgery? I think the only point on which anyone can be sure, is how the surgery will affect their own well-being. Also, things change. Someone may not want the surgery for herself now, but change her mind later as she becomes entrenched in being who she is?

[Stephenie S]

Why not, Reine?

Because having a penis colors your whole life. Sure, no one else needs know. Well, your doctor and your lover will know. AND YOU WILL KNOW. A penis and a vagina are the ultimate sex differentiations. Noses are not. Guys have penises, girls have vaginas. It's as simple as that.

Can someone FEEL feminine or masculine with the wrong equipment? Sure. But they aren't. In the end, when you drop your jeans, a pre-op has a penis, a post-op has a vagina. And it's incredibly deterministic to their self awareness.

Don't you think, Reine, that you would feel and act differently if you had a penis? Don't you think it would color your whole life? How feminine would YOU feel with a penis dangling between your legs? I'm gonna come down on the yes side of that question.

I'm gonna state this again. The real job of becoming a woman STARTS with having a vagina. It's just a fact. Do pre-ops feel feminine? Yes they do. Many live and work 24/7 as women. I can't denigrate that self awareness. But there's that old bugaboo, the penis, hanging down there. There is the constant self awareness that with that penis you will be placed in a particular hospital bed, a particular prison or jail cell, a particular nursing home bed when you get that far, and hated and judged for your possession of that penis by a significantly large segment of our population. Your doctor will treat you differently. Your drinking buds will treat you differently if they find out. The paramedic will treat you differently after you have a motor vehicle accident. The ER will treat you differently when you have a heart attack. It's not quite as simple as just saying, "I know I am a woman, therefor I am". You can't always DEMAND admission to the girl's club.

OK, I have said enough. I know this will offend some. I hope not too many. It's not meant to offend. It's meant to educate.

S

[Starling]

...Ask any maternity doc. Penis = male. Vagina = female...

Well, ask any gender doc and they will disagree; they will say gender is in your brain, not your genitals. And no offense meant to the post-ops here, but what they have is not the sort of vagina that a maternity doc sees.

Let me be clear: I feel I am a woman; I'd be much happier without my male parts; and I want to have SRS if I can swing it. Because it is my desire and my goal, and because I know what inner turmoil must be overcome, I have immense respect for women who have beat the odds and made it to the next plateau.

I believe you when you say pre-ops can't possibly know what it's like to be post-op; I mean, it's obvious on the face of it. But if you shanghaied a happy male and gave him a vaginoplasty, he'd still be male, and very pissed-off. It's because you are already female that obtaining a beautiful vagina feels so profoundly fulfilling.

Lallie

PS: Stephenie, you powerfully describe living as a woman with a vagina as far less stressful, so I wonder why after SRS is when "the hard work" starts. It seems more like the reward than the task. Don't think I haven't imagined scenes of medical humiliation, of the dread of losing my physical autonomy; but that's a nightmare a lot of us must face with a certain degree of stoicism, if we can't get SRS.

[Katesback]

What is a gender doc? Do you mean doctor that works with trans people doing SRS? If so umm do you realize he will say whatever it takes to put $ in his pocket.


QUOTE=LALady;2631961]Well, ask any gender doc and they will disagree; they will say gender is in your brain, not your genitals. And no offense meant to the post-ops here, but what they have is not the sort of vagina that a maternity doc sees.

Let me be clear: I feel I am a woman; I'd be much happier without my male parts; and I want to have SRS if I can swing it. Because it is my desire and my goal, and because I know what inner turmoil must be overcome, I have immense respect for women who have beat the odds and made it to the next plateau.

I believe you when you say pre-ops can't possibly know what it's like to be post-op; I mean, it's obvious on the face of it. But if you shanghaied a happy male and gave him a vaginoplasty, he'd still be male, and very pissed-off. It's because you are already female that obtaining a beautiful vagina feels so profoundly fulfilling.

Lallie

PS: Stephenie, you powerfully describe living as a woman with a vagina as far less stressful, so I wonder why after SRS is when "the hard work" starts. It seems more like the reward than the task. Don't think I haven't imagined scenes of medical humiliation, of the dread of losing my physical autonomy; but that's a nightmare a lot of us must face with a certain degree of stoicism, if we can't get SRS.[/QUOTE]

[Kathryn Martin]

Well, ask any gender doc and they will disagree; ....
Lallie

PS: Stephenie, you powerfully describe living as a woman with a vagina as far less stressful, so I wonder why after SRS is when "the hard work" starts. It seems more like the reward than the task. Don't think I haven't imagined scenes of medical humiliation, of the dread of losing my physical autonomy; but that's a nightmare a lot of us must face with a certain degree of stoicism, if we can't get SRS.

As long as you think that sex and gender are the same thing it is hard to understand. As long as you equate feminine with being female, how can you understand why the "hard work" begins after surgery. Feeling feminine and dressing as a female is not the same than being female and seeking congruence.

By the way I am a pre-op woman.

[Melody Moore]

I watched an episode of Embarassing Bodies last night and there was a woman born without a uterus
does that mean that she isn't really a woman. And what about my own situation being intersex?
Biologically I am MORE female than most of the post ops here, but because the doctors decided to
remove my female reproductive system does that mean that I am not a female? Some of you really
need to wake up to yourselves because I am sure some of you cannot see past your own noses...

Fact: Your gender or sex is NOT defined by what is between your legs & thousands of
intersex people born around the world continue to prove that fact time & time again. If
you want to bring "biological sex" into it then none of you are females except me & Reine.

And this stupid statement "the real job of becoming a woman STARTS with having a vagina".

Show me one person who has had GRS/SRS without transitioning and being on hormone therapy first?

[Starling]

What is a gender doc? Do you mean doctor that works with trans people doing SRS? If so umm do you realize he will say whatever it takes to put $ in his pocket....

By "gender doc" I mean a gender specialist, academic or clinical--one who has studied the nature of gender and/or counsels people with gender dysphoria. I know you are cynical about them, but the apparent success of your own psychotherapy-free transition does not diminish the value of scholarly exploration of the phenomenon for the purpose of helping more people more effectively.

Lallie

[Starling]

As long as you think that sex and gender are the same thing it is hard to understand. As long as you equate feminine with being female, how can you understand why the "hard work" begins after surgery. Feeling feminine and dressing as a female is not the same than being female and seeking congruence.

By the way I am a pre-op woman.

I don't think sex and gender are the same thing, Kathryn. Where did you get that in what I said? I think I'm pretty much like you, except you're further along and have a supportive SO. I began seeking congruence long before I knew the special TS sense of the word, and I never use the term "feminine." I avoid trying to be feminine, if that means to mimic stereotypic female behavior. I have learned to trust my core.

I dress in order to help being accepted as the woman I am, and my next milestone will be dressing full time. I seek to reify myself in every way I can. I consider myself pre-op, until the universe says otherwise.

Lallie

[Amber99]

(you will be put in a women's' prison for example)...etc...

Wow I didn't know that, that's good!

[Beth-Lock]

Though public opinion may be changing, a lot of acquaintances will be more comfortable and accepting of your new gender if you have had gender correction surgery. That is just a fact.

And even the Standards of Care mention tfelt tendency for TS to be comfortable and accepted in locker rooms, etc., if they at least look biologically female, for which a vuvlva rather than a vagina might be sufficient.

In a romantic or sexual relationship, many men will not accept a post-op as being female enough to satisfy them.

Conclusion: Being TS isubjects you to a complex social situation and a precarious one, no matter what.

(Supplementary observation: What a magnificent debate!)

[Frances]

Things I have learned from this thread: Vaginoplasty is an unnecessary comestic medical procedure that is all about sex.

[Melody Moore]

Though public opinion may be changing, a lot of acquaintances will be more comfortable and accepting of your new gender if you have had gender correction surgery. That is just a fact.

How can it be a fact?

Do natal women go around saying "I have a vagina, so you MUST accept me as a woman"?

If you think they do, then you need to take a reality check. I am just one, but I
am not the only natal born female with a penis, there are quite a few of us around,

People will feel more comfortable being around you if you are simply a good person who is true
to who you are - not by what is between your legs. This argument is well and truly worn out.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

What is just so incredibly obnoxious about this discussion is the following..

The people that are howling are the people that have not had surgery..don't want surgery, or want some partial surgery and are trying to justify their decisions...they ask questions and make assertions

and when women come here and say , well i had the surgery, and here's what it did for me, i am living full time in gender conformity for the first time, and here's what its like
they get treated like monty python arguement clinic..."no you didnt"....

its bs... maybe everyone that had surgery should leave


if you are transsexual you will benefit from srs surgery, it is a proven state of the art procedure that has fundamentally changed 1000's and 1000's of lives.. it has been described in detail from a physical and emotional level almost universally as a wonderful thing by people that had the surgery (barring complications)... if you are too old, too mentally unstable, too poor or too sick you may not get be able to get this surgery...but it doesnt mean you arent a transsexual or a woman (however you like to id yourself)..

I really feel sorry for you if you are making excuses and roadblocks for yourself...i have been there..that's what drives me to post my experience..
analyzing yourself and dealing with all that inner crap IS the problem...if you'd rather make up excuses why you don't want the buzzing to go away, that's fine, but what do you gain by arguing with me about what i actually experienced?

[Frances]

Though public opinion may be changing, a lot of acquaintances will be more comfortable and accepting of your new gender if you have had gender correction surgery. That is just a fact.

How can it be a fact?

Do natal women go around saying "I have a vagina, so you MUST accept me as a woman"?

If you think they do, then you need to take a reality check. I am just one, but I
am not the only natal born female with a penis, there are quite a few of us around,

People will feel more comfortable being around you if you are simply a good person who is true
to who you are - not by what is between your legs. This argument is well and truly worn out.

In my experience, acquaintances who know that I have had SRS are way more comfortable around me. Men that shook my hand before and looked at the ground, now kiss me on the cheek and make eye-contact. Beth-Lock said acquaintances, not strangers.

[Stephenie S]

Melody wrote:

"Do natal women go around saying "I have a vagina, so you MUST accept me as a woman"

Perhaps, perhaps not. But they certainly COULD say that. Mostly, they don't have to.

But the naysayers in this thread ARE going around saying, "I have a penis, but because I demand it, you MUST accept me as a woman".

I know the old saw: "It's what's between you ears, not what's between your legs." I even used that line on occasion. But it's not quite true. What's between your legs DOES matter. Again, ask ANY post-op. And were you to ask any "Gender" doc. They would tell you the same thing. They make their living satisfying the needs of those who must have congruency.

This argument may be worn out, but not from the application of reality. It's worn out by the rantings of those unwilling to learn from those who have gone before.

S

[Katesback]

Maybe you were onto something when ya said "too mentally unstable". Perhaps thats a good reason for a lot of people to not get srs.

Post op girls why are you argueing with the pre girls? You remember what its like being pre. You remember how you knew it all, had your doors closed off to disending opinions, you remember that. These people KNOW what they are talking about because they have crystal balls. They are like teenagers back talking to thier parents thinking they know it all. Of course if your post op you know they are full of it but hey let them ramble on about how they know what they are talking about. It is truely entertaining. What is sad thought is that some of these know it all people become activits and trans mommies and guide the new recruits. That makes me cringe thinking about all the poor advice and informantion being spread. I wonder how many new recruits are learning that a "steady stream of post op girls are getting thier vaginas closed".

What is just so incredibly obnoxious about this discussion is the following..

The people that are howling are the people that have not had surgery..don't want surgery, or want some partial surgery and are trying to justify their decisions...they ask questions and make assertions

and when women come here and say , well i had the surgery, and here's what it did for me, i am living full time in gender conformity for the first time, and here's what its like
they get treated like monty python arguement clinic..."no you didnt"....

its bs... maybe everyone that had surgery should leave


if you are transsexual you will benefit from srs surgery, it is a proven state of the art procedure that has fundamentally changed 1000's and 1000's of lives.. it has been described in detail from a physical and emotional level almost universally as a wonderful thing by people that had the surgery (barring complications)... if you are too old, too mentally unstable, too poor or too sick you may not get be able to get this surgery...but it doesnt mean you arent a transsexual or a woman (however you like to id yourself)..

I really feel sorry for you if you are making excuses and roadblocks for yourself...i have been there..that's what drives me to post my experience..
analyzing yourself and dealing with all that inner crap IS the problem...if you'd rather make up excuses why you don't want the buzzing to go away, that's fine, but what do you gain by arguing with me about what i actually experienced?

[Stephenie S]

LALady wrote:

"PS: Stephenie, you powerfully describe living as a woman with a vagina as far less stressful, so I wonder why after SRS is when "the hard work" starts. It seems more like the reward than the task. Don't think I haven't imagined scenes of medical humiliation, of the dread of losing my physical autonomy; but that's a nightmare a lot of us must face with a certain degree of stoicism, if we can't get SRS."

I didn't use the term "hard work", I said "then the real work of becoming a woman starts". And I didn't actually say that, Kate did. I just agreed with her. I said, "Kate's right, you know." The real work of becoming a woman starts with SRS. And it's joyful work, not hard work. Oh, it can be hard. It's not really easy. It will take a while, this beginning of life. But begin it does.

It's like, OMG, so THIS is what having a vagina is like! And you realize that no matter HOW fully formed you felt BEFORE surgery, no matter HOW complete and defined you felt BEFORE surgery, no matter how unimportant it seemed to be to carry around your hidden badge of masculinity, now it's gone and OMG, now you can stop pretending and get on with the real work of becoming a woman.

That's just what happens. Honest. I'm not sugar coating anything. I'm not pulling any punches in order to respect your tender sensibilities. I'm not acting nice 'cause that's what my mother taught me. I'm just laying it out there. It's not opinion. It's fact.

Sure it's a reward. But it's not the end. It's the beginning. You're not done. You're just starting. Why, Oh why, are you denying this? Why are you fighting it so hard? Whatever are you afraid of? It's WONDERFUL.

S

[Stephenie S]

Now I guess I will take my friend Kate's advice and stop. Gotta get on with my day. Good luck with this, all.

Stephie

[ReineD]

There is the constant self awareness that with that penis you will be placed in a particular hospital bed, a particular prison or jail cell, a particular nursing home bed when you get that far, and hated and judged for your possession of that penis by a significantly large segment of our population.

Thanks, Stephenie. I've no doubt that SRS is a much, much more than mere cosmetic surgery. I'm convinced it is life changing as well.

It wasn't my intent to minimize the seriousness of SRS by comparing it to rhinoplasty. I was rather trying to illustrate the concept of choice, vs. a different surgery where the choice to not have it would condemn a person to a sure death, for example a liver transplant or triple bypass. My point was, if a transwoman is in her 60s, has been married for 40 years and is not interested in any other relationship even if she becomes widowed, or if she has medical issues or, has no hope for various reasons of obtaining funds for SRS, or even if she is at the beginning of her journey and is not done peeling back all the onion layers, why do some post-ops doubt her gender?

Now ... if post-ops are arguing in favor of reality and they're rather pointing out that non-ops would be sent to a male prison, that's fine. But, other than passing on legal information, why does it matter so much what someone else chooses to do with their life? The arguments about this get rather intense here and some comments are downright insulting.

I'm dead set against smoking cigarettes. But, should one of my sons take up the habit, I would tell them I disapprove but then I'd have no other choice but to let it go, no matter how much I would fear for their health or how devastating it would be to me should they get lung cancer. It is their life to live.