Can you CD w/o being TG?

[Rianna Humble]

I think one reason we don't reach agreement on this is that we don't agree on what "gender" is in the first place.

Or to put it another way, you disagree with the internationally accepted definitions used by health professionals all over the world and posted recently by Reine
where we read

Gender identity: A person’s intrinsic sense of being male (a boy or a man), female (a girl or woman), or an alternative gender (e.g., boygirl, girlboy, transgender, genderqueer, eunuch).

Transgender: Adjective to describe a diverse group of individuals who cross or transcend culturally defined categories of gender. The gender identity of transgender people differs to varying degrees from the sex they were assigned at birth.

[LeaP]

"Women's equality is a female attempt to become male... "

Wow.

"... but men don't freak out when a woman shows up at work wearing jeans, work boots, a flannel shirt and baseball cap?? So why should women, or men for that matter, freak when a guy show up to work wearing a suit and tie, perfectly pressed skirt and proper heels?? "

Because gender ROLES are culturally-determined. In a way, you've made the case for CDing to be indicative of TG IDENTITY. That is, to overcome social mores so strong and so heavily enforced requires an inner driver, unless perhaps one is a sociopath. Arguments about just liking fabrics and such really don't cut it when weighed against this kind of social pressure. (I'm speaking of those who are publically out or would be.)

There is a constant muddle in these discussions between gender identity and expression/role. The women's movement of the last century has nothing to do with a change in identity but everything to do with role and expression.

I can accept the possibility that someone closeted might not be TG, though I'd be sceptical. But out? Hardly.

Lea

[LeaP]

Or to put it another way, you disagree with the internationally accepted definitions used by health professionals all over the world and posted recently by Reine
where we read

As it happens, I like the cited definitions a lot. Still, this is a logic error. There isn't a sole authority or set of definitions. All of these have changed over time and will again. Also keep in mind that the TG community itself has had a major role in the evolution of these definitions. Ie, discussions like these are part of the process that evolves medical practice itself. It's always fair to challenge. I know people get tired of it, but it's a major reason that things have progressed in a positive direction.

Lea

[kimdl93]

Its been interesting to watch this discussion revolve around in circles. One thing I've observed on this site over the past two years is that whenever a question about gender identity comes up in relation to cross dressing, inevitably the discourse heads off into a debate about labels, defnitions etc.

My guess is that some of us would prefer to define "oureselves" in a certain way, and that leads us to dispute the definitions themselves. Basically, if as a CDr, I don't like the idea of considering myself among the "transgendered", then I'll dispute the idea by disputing or redefining the term. Disputing the definition becomes a denial mechanism.

Its ok, this is a discussion group.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I'd like to have an argument please??

No you wouldn't

Yes i would

No you wouldn't

.................................................. ..........................................

[Nicolesacutie]

I think that anytime you put on girl clothes we all have that ''what if'' thought.

[LeaP]

Its been interesting to watch this discussion revolve around in circles. One thing I've observed on this site over the past two years is that whenever a question about gender identity comes up in relation to cross dressing, inevitably the discourse heads off into a debate about labels, defnitions etc.

My guess is that some of us would prefer to define "oureselves" in a certain way, and that leads us to dispute the definitions themselves. Basically, if as a CDr, I don't like the idea of considering myself among the "transgendered", then I'll dispute the idea by disputing or redefining the term. Disputing the definition becomes a denial mechanism.

If it were endless discussion about mere semantics, I'd understand the frustration more than I do. I get frustrated myself when I see someone citing a published term (e.g., from WPATH) when they clearly don't understand it. But it's not semantics. Access to care, insurance payment, and legal protections all critically revolve around these terms. Social acceptance and progression revolve around the positioning (and understanding) of TG behaviors and all of this has to be baked into terminology that has a common meaning for the general public who will never be educated in the nuances.

There was an earlier post I thought had value that contained a nugget about terminology within the community versus outside. The general public is not going to accept CD'ing as normal, a hobby, or anything like that. I also don't see a shift to broadening the types of male clothing into the Cis range in my lifetime. So, from the outside, seeing CD'ing as a manifestation of TG identity - at whatever level - is perfectly reasonable, especially given that TG is coming to be recognized as a normal human variation. I think it's vastly preferable to the historic alternatives, too. Anyone for CD'ing as infantilist latent homosexuality, for example?

Lea

[NathalieX66]

I am at midlife, or 3/5ths midlife since my grandmother is on her way to reaching her 101th birthday in a couple of months.
I finally accepted my cd/trans side almost three years ago. Even though I no plans on "transitioning" as far as I know at this stage, I lost 25 lbs in a year & a half , I got rid of the goat tee, and grew my hair for a year, and now I have a ponytail, I dye it, and I'm going for another year of long hair without cutting it, I did about 8 electrolysis sessions and 2 laser sessions on the beard, and my ears have been pierced since college, and I look like I'm straddling on the fence of transition these days...and i'm fine with that.

Make me as gender ambiguous a possible, and I'm happy.

[Asche]

Or to put it another way, you disagree with the internationally accepted definitions used by health professionals all over the world ...

They can define whatever they want -- I am hardly in a position to stop them. But I will feel free to argue that they are framing things in a way that allows them to make enforcing social norms seem like the only sane policy to take. This definition is not a neutral, objective description, it is a way of supporting the status quo.

The mental health profession has had a long tradition of assuming that if the essence of an individual comes into conflict with how society likes to run things, it is the individual who is broken, not society, and it is the individual who must change to fit society, not society to accommodate the individuals within it. The most obvious recent example is the classification of homosexuality as a mental disorder, but there are plenty of others. Drapetomania is one of the more embarrassing ones.

[Pink Person]

Gender is a general formal and functional characteristic. Sex is a specific formal characteristic. Sexuality is a specific functional characteristic. Our gender classification includes sex and sexual elements but is more comprehensive than either of these attributes. Our gender classification is complex, so it's hard to talk about it without confusing some people. Gender attributes describe us, are prescribed for us, and we subscribe to some of them. Gender is subjective, objective, real, and artificial in different aspects.

Transgender people self-identify as one gender (masculine or feminine) but have significant characteristics (formal and functional) that are commonly associated with the opposite gender. Our genders are not completely self-determined or socially-determined. They are determined by a combination of personal and social factors.

I think it's hilarious how some of the members of this site try to defend their manhood and their crossdressing simultaneously. It always makes me chuckle (and sometimes snort with laughter). To be fair, however, it's possible to be a transmasculine crossdresser. It just isn't possible to be a cismasculine one. Cisgender people self-identify as one gender and don't have any significant characteristics that are commonly associated with the opposite gender. Crossdressing is a deal breaker for cisgender classification. You can't be a cisgender person and a crossdresser. You might be a transmasculine crossdresser, but you will never be a cismasculine one. You can still be manly in a transy mansy sort of way, but not manly like a cisman.

For the record, there is nothing wrong with being transgender. Transgender people are normal members of any human population. We are normal minority members, but our minority status is just as valid as the status of any majority member.

[Veronica27]

To Pink Person

Your first two paragraphs are an extremely well written essay on the meaning of the term gender, and I am in complete agreement with you. You then spoil it with what appears to be somewhat of a sexist rant about manhood and crossdressing. How do you define "significant" when referring to characteristics commonly associated with the other gender. We can all be compassionate, aggressive, competetive, nurturing and on and on. There have been times in history when men have dressed flamboyantly and women dressed conservatively.

Experiencing the sensations of wearing a dress and discovering what some of the superficial trappings of society's image of womanhood might feel like, may be nothing more than an exercise in intellectual curiosity. Does this make him any less of a man than the stay-at-home house husband who raises the kids? Is the woman who becomes a professional boxer any less of a woman because of that? If the man who crossdresses finds it relaxing and a pleasant escape from the usual demands of his normal everyday existence, is this any different from the man who spends every weekend on the golf course, or gambles at a casino, or vegetates in front of the boob tube? If a man chooses to play football, we don't label him as a sadistic pervert who enjoys punishing people. He may well be, but let other factors determine that, and not just a love of football. If a man crossdresses, why do we have to label his anything, particularly transgendered, with all its implications of gender confusion and uncertainty, as well as permanence as if that describes his entirety. He may well be transgendered, but let the additional factors determine that and not just crossdressing.

You refer frequently to cisgender, a term coined fairly recently, which means self identification with one gender or the other. Does the cisgendered male not have the ability to be compassionate or to cry on occasion. Is he supposed to be devoid of any emotion other than anger and such. If so, why do you refuse to allow a crossdresser to also self identify as a man, despite the fact that he might occasionally wear a few items of clothing that society says are a no-no, but have no impact on his own personal identity, or feelings about himself?

We do not all fit neatly into little boxes that all bear the same descriptive labels. We are individuals, and deserve to be treated as such. Transgendered and Cisgendered, both sound like terms that say "This is what you are, get into your little box and be quiet"

Veronica

[Pink Person]

The class of people who are transgender actually has more diversity than the class of people who are cisgender, but both classes have a large amount of particular diversity despite the general similarity of their members.

Even though there is quite a lot of diversity within cisgender and transgender classes, there is no intersection between them. You are either in one class or the other. Boys (and men) named Sue who dress up like women to relax, or pursue a cure for cancer, are excluded from claiming cisgender status for themselves because the act of crossdressing is never just about wearing the clothes. It isn't about relaxing or curing cancer either. How we dress ourselves is an expression of our core personal gender values. People with core masculine values dress in a masculine manner. People with core feminine values dress in a feminine manner. People with core gender values that conflict with some of their other significant gender characteristics are transgender. You can be a silly duck and deny it, but you aren't fooling anyone but yourself.

[sara.s]

Gender identity: A person’s intrinsic sense of being male (a boy or a man), female (a girl or woman), or an alternative gender (e.g., boygirl, girlboy, transgender, genderqueer, eunuch).

Transgender: Adjective to describe a diverse group of individuals who cross or transcend culturally defined categories of gender. The gender identity of transgender people differs to varying degrees from the sex they were assigned at birth.

It still does not deviate from any of the other definitions posted on wiki and other places and has nothing new. It has two parameters to define transgender:---
Interpreting the 1st line, it says all CDs are TG's. And the next line says that the INTRINSIC sense must differ from the gender assigned at birth. So, why do you just assume that all CD's intrinsic sense is different.. Most people making that assumption here are not even CD's, but TS/GG's who do not share same mindset as us.

If this is the most accurate definition, then CD's are definitely not TG's.

[Pink Person]

I don't know any men who express their intrinsic masculinity by wearing a wig, makeup, and a dress; but it's okay with me if they want to make absurd claims about themselves and their behavior.

[sara.s]

I don't know any men who express their intrinsic masculinity by wearing a wig, makeup, and a dress, but it's okay with me if they want to make absurd claims about themselves and their behavior.

We are talking about intrinsic sense of the mind(or how you feel) not extrinsic sense of your appearance. Lets go back to the definition of Gender Identity,

Gender identity: A person’s intrinsic sense of being male (a boy or a man), female (a girl or woman), or an alternative gender (e.g., boygirl, girlboy, transgender, genderqueer, eunuch).

Do you see any mention of wig/makeup/bra/panties?

[ReineD]

So, why do you just assume that all CD's intrinsic sense is different.. Most people making that assumption here are not even CD's, but TS/GG's who do not share same mindset as us.

If this is the most accurate definition, then CD's are definitely not TG's.

First, this is not my definition, but the WPATH's, which I'm sure they've come up with after a great deal of study and deliberation, using teams of experts in the field.

And second, don't you think that when a birth male wants to see himself looking like a woman in the mirror, it is because there is a part of his identity that differs from the sex assigned at birth? Why else would he gain so much pleasure or satisfaction from seeing himself looking feminine? Males who have solid male core identities do not want to look or feel feminine.

[msginaadoll]

I think the problem is that people define the world differently. I got called out on the crossdresserchatcity forum (as well as called names ) because I dared to say that crossdressing can fall under the transgender spectrum. Individuals who many of us would consider transsexual felt insulted that I dared use that term. So this is a hotbutton topic for some.

[ReineD]

I think the problem is that people define the world differently. I got called out on the crossdresserchatcity forum (as well as called names ) because I dared to say that crossdressing can fall under the transgender spectrum. Individuals who many of us would consider transsexual felt insulted that I dared use that term. So this is a hotbutton topic for some.

I know. It would be so much easier if everyone could just remove their own agendas for a moment, and read the definitions with an objective mindset, and see there is a great deal of room in each definition to allow for a wide range of expression.

[Rianna Humble]

Gender identity: A person’s intrinsic sense of being male (a boy or a man), female (a girl or woman), or an alternative gender (e.g., boygirl, girlboy, transgender, genderqueer, eunuch).

Transgender: Adjective to describe a diverse group of individuals who cross or transcend culturally defined categories of gender. The gender identity of transgender people differs to varying degrees from the sex they were assigned at birth.

Interpreting the 1st line, it says all CDs are TG's.

Actually, the first line you quote talks about your gender identity - which can be man, woman or something in between. It is this identity which is intrinsic, not whether you are cisgender (a man/woman who conforms to the culturally defined categories of gender) or transgender (crossing or transcending those norms).

And the next line says that the INTRINSIC sense must differ from the gender assigned at birth.

It does not say that anywhere

So, why do you just assume that all CD's intrinsic sense is different.. Most people making that assumption here are not even CD's, but TS/GG's who do not share same mindset as us.

Those of us who accept the internationally agreed definitions do not argue that MtF cross-dressers do not see themselves as intrinsically male.

If this is the most accurate definition, then CD's are definitely not TG's.

To what definition do you refer? Certainly not the one that you quote. You insist (and no-one wants to contradict you) that you are intrinsically male, yet at the same time you refuse to accept that your behaviour in cross-dressing goes beyond the cultural definition of male gender behaviour.

The final sentence quoted above merely states that not everyone's gender identity will differ from your sex at birth to the same extent, but I am not alone here in finding it hard to credit that you see your behaviour as reflecting an intrinsic sense of being 100% male.

[sara.s]

First, this is not my definition, but the WPATH's, which I'm sure they've come up with after a great deal of study and deliberation, using teams of experts in the field.

Yeah, i read that.. I acknowledge..

And second, don't you think that when a birth male wants to see himself looking like a woman in the mirror, it is because there is a part of his identity that differs from the sex assigned at birth? Why else would he gain so much pleasure or satisfaction from seeing himself looking feminine?

Lets talk about me first..
Even before cd'ing on part time, i used to change my hairstyle, beard style alternatively to make it interesting. I love just about anything that make me look different. Its fun, may be i might have costume fetish but not enough money and storage. I don't shave when getting dressed, just the area visible; and that too only if there is thick hair growth. If you remember, long time ago i had created a thread about going out as superman vs going out as woman to mall and which would be thrilling.

I don't feel feminine dressed or not; i don't dress at home, nor i underdress outside. I am just bored of wearing the same outfit the second time over, and also it's been such a long time since i purchased women's outfits. As for your question on satisfaction i get looking at the mirror... answer is simple. I am hetero-sexual lol. I like to look at beautiful girls. I just keep staring at the mirror and thinking why can't she be real and wished if i could drag her out from there. If you hadn't noticed, for a long time, my status was "In love...(with myself)".

Males who have solid male core identities do not want to look or feel feminine.

This is a shallow definition of "solid male". It is as if saying, females with solid female core identities will not want to look or feel masculine. Its actually embedded in US society, that if you are "male with solid core identities" then it must not look feminine, you must be going to gym and build muscles. Its only here that manliness is measured in terms of muscle build up. What about countries where men are short, aren't they "solid men" because they are short. There might have been many men in US army who may have looked cute/short and gave up their lives defending the country. Aren't they "solid males"? And how about TXKimberly who served in military and a bravest cd here? In a country with football as a primary game, this kinda concept of "Solid Male" is not a surprise. If you dare many of these so called "solid males" to dress up and makeup and walk in a far away town, you ll probably see how sissy they are. I am not suggesting CD's are solid males either, but that a "solid male" is intrinsically brave rather than extrinsically strong. And btw i used to be a crazy risktaking biker before i came to US. And i wonder how many "solid males" can beat me at that.

There are so many cd's who say they don't find their feminine self, but most here keep ignoring them unless they say they mention the "pink fog" word. They have their own reasons for dressing, some sexual, some comfort. Everyone is different and just because there are majority of one type of people doesn't mean you have to kick out the others.

[sara.s]

It does not say that anywhere

??? Looks like you have lost it.
At least Reine got what I said, I will just debate with her.

[anouk]

The only thing that unites all the crossdressers is an urge to wear clothes of the other sex. It seems to be more typical that there are some feelings of other gender, too. For example for me it is very important point in crossdressing. However I konw some cd:s who just want to be a man in woman's clothes, even without any significant fetishist flavour.

[Rianna Humble]

??? Looks like you have lost it.
At least Reine got what I said, I will just debate with her.

So I have lost it because you make an untrue statement - fine! We'll all use Humpty Dumpty logic to make you feel better.

[DebbieL]

TG tends to have multiple definations.

The term Transgender was coined in 1984 in a usenet newsgroup to provide a broad definition for those who enjoyed different aspects of femininity, such as dressing, behavior, make-up, and so on, but were not necessarily transsexual. It started during a conversation around transsexuals and Kinsey's "Scale" of sexual preference. The concept of transgender was intended to allow for a scale from something like 1 - totally happy with my natural gender to 6 - full-blown transsexual.

However, it's entirely possible to be a 1 - a man who enjoys being "All Man" and enjoys dressing up in girls clothes for a short time strictly for sexual pleasure or to please a partner, then go back to being "All man" again. On the other end of the spectrum, there are those who, given the time and money would want a sex change more than anything else in the world, and yet feels that, since they have to exist as men, for now, will dress as men for work and other social events.

Perhaps there should be a distinction between IDENTITY and ACTIVITY, or perhaps that is the difference between Transgender (Identity) and Transsexual (Actions/Behavior).

It's ironic that a popular them in transgender liturature is the "Forced Feminization" where a heterosexual "all man" male is forced to undergo a transformation into feminine appearance, behavior, and activities, including sex with men, and resists each new step toward transition until they eventually surrender and become women.

Perhaps the reason this genre is so popular, is because so many transgendered and transsexual men feel like they have been forced to live in their male gender role, and are not able to live in their preferred gender role.

I have been to many meetings of Cross-dresser meetings where there were, in addition to thet feminine men who wanted to look and act as much like a girl as possible, men who were obviously men, who enjoyed being men, and had zero desire to be a woman, look completely like a woman, or even be viewed as a woman, and just liked dressing up "for kicks". One enjoyed playing football in high school and college, still hung out with the boys, and didn't start dressing until very late. He and his wife enjoyed having sex while he was dressed up, but neither wanted him to go out in general public while dressed.

[Pink Person]

Our imaginations are powerful deceivers. Girly-men who pout (with pretty red lips) and stamp their (high fashion) heels when anyone else suggests they aren't "all manly" are suffering from a very clouded perception of reality indeed. Is it a pink cloud or a blue cloud? It doesn't matter. They can't see straight, I mean queer, when it is staring at them in the mirror. They have a very special alternative vision of themselves in their mind's eye. Unfortunately, sometimes our mind's eye sees things that don't exist, like a desert mirage or "all manly" crossdressers.