You think i made a untrue statement bcos you failed to read my post correctly. Anyways, I want to clarify that: In my post by "It has two parameters to define transgender:---Interpreting the 1st line, ..." I was referring to the 1st line in the definition of Transgender.Originally Posted by Rianna Humble
Well, then you may be the exception to the majority of members here? If you transform yourself into a feminine being because of your love of costumes, and you alter this with other transformations such as superman or any form of cosplay (that is not crossplay or a doller), in other words if it is more a case of dress up that is independent from the feminine gender, then I agree you are not transgender. You might tomorrow decide to become a jedi and be happy with that for a few years?
But, if the costuming is specifically female gender oriented, it may indicate a wish to be feminine somehow, even if it is only sometimes?
I have to disagree with you there. Boys and men (who are not TG) have no wish to present in any way, shape or form as feminine. It is not who they are. And it also doesn't mean they are into muscle building. I can think of scores of males who are not into the stereotypical guy stuff: the musicians, the artists, the history buffs, the political activists, the scholar bowl guys who have their own brand of sexiness in high school for some girls, by just being brainy, or intensely into whatever it is they're into even if it is not muscle, guns, and cars.
As to the comment about women who appear to CDs as if they want to feel masculine, well, it's been done to death in this forum, but allow me to simply say that women do not feel masculine when they wear jeans or are into sports. They feel like women who wear jeans and who are into sports. In other words, they have no desire to present as a gender opposite than who they are, except of course the transmen. There may be some butch women may have gender ambiguity, just as some gay guys might too, but I don't think we're talking about them.
You make a reference to autogynephilia (the love of oneself as a woman). My response is that our sexual expression is a fundamental part of who we are, even if in our conservative society many people compartmentalize it. Why would one male who loves women get off on seeing himself dressed as one, while another male who also loves women would not be satisfied doing this? It does have to do with core identity even if the person involved thinks it is just sex and therefore it doesn't count. If you read the threads here from the older CDs, you'll see that for an overwhelming number, it did start out as just sex. But then it solidified into a more concrete form of feminine identity over the years, to the point where for many CDs in their 50s & 60s, it is no longer about sex at all.
OK, lets talk about a male for whom the wearing of feminine items is strictly pure, unadulterated fetish. It's related to sex and sex only. If he's married, they're both into it in the bedroom. It could be anything really, spiky heels, or corsets, or boas, or non feminine items such as feathers, or diapers, or bondage, or gagging. An object fetish is strictly an object fetish.
But, when the sexual gratification occurs when a male takes on a feminine persona (he becomes a woman in his imagination), then it is indicative of something much, much deeper than just having a foot fetish and getting off on stilettos or boots, for example.
Also, if the CDs in this forum for whom the dressing is highly sexual are to be honest with themselves, can they say that they do not get off on feeling specifically feminine, ever? Judging by the threads in this forum, the majority of members here enjoy looking feminine, acting feminine, feeling feminine, they enjoy seeing each other look, act, and feel feminine. It's way more than, "I just do this for sex".
Edit
I'm not trying to be difficult, but what is so wrong with admitting to feelings of wanting to be feminine even if it is sometimes, and why such a strong fight to preserve strictly a male identity when it is obvious that sometimes the male identity becomes eclipsed? Is it the homophobia or the transphobia that seems to be inbred in males as they socialize themselves into adult men?
Last edited by ReineD; 10-30-2011 at 10:04 PM.
Reine
Jedi for many years is so boring. I would rather change it up everytime.
But you still do not deny that a much larger fraction of young girls like the stereotypical guys (muscle, guns cars). Right? There is something in it for the girl too, i am just guessing bragging rights, more shopping, more parties, more luxury, riding on expensive car, better future.I have to disagree with you there. Boys and men (who are not TG) have no wish to present in any way, shape or form as feminine. It is not who they are. And it also doesn't mean they are into muscle building.
I can think of scores of males who are not into the stereotypical guy stuff: the musicians, the artists, the history buffs, the political activists, the scholar bowl guys who have their own brand of sexiness in high school for some girls, by just being brainy, or intensely into whatever it is they're into even if it is not muscle, guns, and cars.
I totally and completely agree to this. I never said anything about jeans sports butch etc. I just reversed the sex/gender in your own statement "Males who have solid male core identities do not want to look or feel feminine." and equated it to the original statement. You support your original statement but you take offense for a converse statement. Either agree to both, or reject both.. Is there any reason why you would reject JUST the converse of the statement? You as a woman know women do not feel masculine when they wear jeans or are into sports; but when a CD says the same thing, "Hey i am wearing skirt, i don't feel feminine, it is fun (or it gives me a kick)", you dont beleive it. This is not fair
On a side note, women do feel powerful when they wear pants. I know many friends who have said that.. So, also this article http://www.styleswept.ca/2011/07/doe...powerful-.html. Masculine is defined as "having qualities traditionally attributed to men". Women go for power dressing to feel more powerful; doesn't that mean they are feeling masculine (i.e. powerful: power is a quality traditionally attributed to men). Other attributes traditionally attributed to men are domination, etc Nothing wrong with that. But women feel offended if we use "masculine" word, but are okay with calling it "fighting for womens rights". Yet, you don't us to be offended if we feel feminine.
If i get off seeing myself dressed (which i do once a month) and be satisfied by that, I would probably be seeing a doc by now. I do have so many real girls to think about.
Each person is different.
What I find amusing about this topic and thread is that those who possess feelings of either being (wholly or partially) or becoming (when crossdressed), the other gender, are determined that everyone who dons a dress must share the same sense of gender identity as themselves. The only exceptions are fetishists, performers and the like. Meanwhile, those who express from their own personal experience, that they personally do not feel any sense of cross gender identity, whether dressed or not, are shot down by the know-it-alls in the first group who insist that they know what is going on in the minds of the latter group. This latter group does not dispute that the former group may be experiencing what they describe but are simply pointing out that it is not a one size fits all situation. Where's the tolerance for diversity of opinion and thought?
Any attempts by the second group at describing their feelings or explaining how they perceive of the various terminology and its applicability to their situation are summarily dismissed as so much "twaddle" or "gobbledygook" by the first group. Members of both groups can become quite heated in their responses; the first group because they think the other groups arguments are nonsense, and the second group because the first group are not willing to listen. Given the choice, I go for independent thought.
Sitting back and reading it all is really quite hillarious.
And that's just ducky.
Veronica
This is pure stereotype. The reality is, there is a variety of men out there, and they do end up finding partners who love them and marry them, and go on to raise families. The idea that women in general prefer the stereotypical male is totally false. Different things float different people's boats! There are nerdy girls just as there are nerdy guys. There are intellectual girls just as there are intellectual guys. There are artsy girls just as there are artsy guys. There are goth girls just as there are goth guys. And they all find each other!
Honestly, I think that men who experience gender issues need to necessarily find a way to survive in a homophobic and transphobic world and so they wrap a big protective blanket around their inner cores in order to survive. I don't blame them given the world we live in, but this leads to a development of all manner or rationalization and scornful beliefs in gendered stereotypes, when in fact, they just need to relax and accept who they are and also realize that we do live in a varied world.
Again, I'm going by the thousands of threads I've read here, the pictures in the Gallery, the accounts of how wonderful it is to feel and look and act pretty and feminine. Just read the forum! If you are in fact an exception, that's fine. If you like to go out looking like a guy wearing a skirt or it's just a fun costume for you, that's great! But you can't say that the majority of the CDers who participate here do not have the goal of crossing the gender lines.You as a woman know women do not feel masculine when they wear jeans or are into sports; but when a CD says the same thing, "Hey i am wearing skirt, i don't feel feminine, it is fun (or it gives me a kick)", you dont beleive it. This is not fair
Last edited by ReineD; 10-31-2011 at 03:21 PM.
Reine
These are not baseless stereotypes. You may pick a girl and ask her, Who she thinks is a "solid male" a nerd, a artsy, or Football player?
We realize who we are, and also realize that the world is varied... but we don't want to described as who we are not. we don't want to be stereotyped again, we already have enough of stereo types.
If women can act rough, powerful, arrogant, dominant and not feel masculine and therefore not crossing gender lines and therefore not transgender.... then similarly, men can feel calm, submissive, patient and not feel feminine and therefore not crossing gender lines and therefore not transgender....
Women probably feel like that because of the position, money power.. and we because of wearing women's outfits.
If position/money power does not change a women's personality so also wearing women's clothes may not change a man's personality.
"Gender-lines" is an interesting word.. Women fought hard to cross it, because that's where the jobs, respect, stability and so much more lies.. But its so hard to understand why men would want to cross gender lines.. isn't it?
If you think that women act rough, powerful, arrogant, and dominant, and that men who dress don't cross gender lines, then I give up, Sara. You win!
Last edited by ReineD; 10-31-2011 at 07:37 PM.
Reine
oh sara....
when i read your posts, this comes to mind..
The lady doth protest too much, methinks
We definitely cross gender lines, but just we were only discussing the WPATH definition here.If you think that women act rough, powerful, arrogant, and dominant, and that men who dress don't cross gender lines, then I give up, Sara. You win!
And yeah, there are few women, who are something like that... no offense meant! But you seem to be a very tolerant and wonderful woman, supporting your cd hubby and all the CD/TS and also TG's! We all win
Crossdressers who compare themselves to women to prove their manliness are making a false
comparison. The true and relevant comparison they should be making is between themselves and other men who don't crossdress. Any crossdresser who measures himself in this manner and doesn't notice a significant gender difference is suffering from a very severe form of denial.
I get it. Some of you desperately want to keep your maleness, and your masculinity, and your combined manliness. No problem, Betty, but you only get to keep some of each of these things. Crossdressers have forfeited any reasonable claim to cismaleness, cismasculinity, and combined cismanliness. The best that they can hope to rightfully claim for themselves is transmaleness, transmasculinity, and transmanliness. This is the shoe that fits you, princess, so put it on. It's not like you don't want to do it.
Last edited by Pink Person; 10-31-2011 at 10:12 PM.
I think the big issue among the CDers who don't wish to claim transmaleness as you call it (good description!), is a belief that it is wrong to be TG, as if it takes away from who they are or it makes them lesser men somehow. This comes from being socialized in a trans/homophobic world and having internalized the transphobia.** It's a shame, really. I'm in love with a CD who considers him/herself dualgender. I don't think he or she is less of anything at all! It's like being bilingual. Knowing two languages doesn't make a person any less proficient in either one! In fact, it enriches a person in many more ways than knowing just the two languages.
** For those who are interested, see the next to the last definition in the link under my signature ... also google it for more in depth articles.
Reine
I really like this analogy Reine. I did the one, became rather proficient at it, now am moving on to the other.It's like being bilingual. Knowing two languages doesn't make a person any less proficient in either one! In fact, it enriches a person in many more ways than knowing just the two languages.
Oh, IMHO there is no shame in being trans. Dumping the shame and guilt has been one of the most liberating things in my life.
Debby
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Merci Reine
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Kaitlyn, that exact thought occurred to me when I read Sara's post.
Rather than saying it takes away from who we are, I would suggest that it tries to "imply" who we are and therefore imposes certain stereotypes upon us. In order to understand transgender, it is necessary to understand gender. I don't believe that there is any dispute over the meaning of trans. The word gender and the word genre have the same Greek root, and it pertains to classification. If you look up the definition of gender, most sources begin by referring to it as a grammatical term. It is a sub-category of a broader category such as a pronoun or a noun. A listing of the basis for describing the sub-category (gender or genre) is usually included and includes such things as shape, size, etc. and only lastly, sex.
The secondary usage of the word gender is usually a description of how the word has evolved into its relationship to the word "sexual identity" through common usage.
The World Health Organization definition of gender is: "Gender" refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women." This was expanded in a technical paper with the following: "Gender is related to how we are perceived and expected to think and act as women and men because of the way society is organized, not because of our biological differences." In other words gender is a social concept and involves social expectations and perceptions, not something that we possess internally.
Health Canada offers this description: "Gender refers to the array of socially constructed roles and relationships, personality traits, attitudes, behaviours, values, relative power and influence that society ascribes to the two sexes on a differential basis. Gender is relational - gender roles and characteristics do not exist in isolation, but are defined in relation to one another and through the relationships between women and men, girls and boys." i.e. society ascribes it. The determinant of masculinity and femininity can differ from society to society and era to era. It has nothing to do with "who we are" but is all about how society arbitrarily categorizes human qualities, and determines gender roles.
Next we must analyze gender identity. The definition you provide is good: "A person’s intrinsic sense of being male (a boy or a man), female (a girl or woman), or an alternative gender (e.g., boygirl, girlboy, transgender, genderqueer, eunuch)." The important words here are "intrinsic sense" which means the essential nature of a thing person etc.
If, for example, my intrinsic sense is that I am a man, then that does not change because I sometimes might wear clothing that society deems to be feminine, because femininity is simply a social construct. What I am doing is crossdressing which your definitions state is: "Crossdressing (transvestism): Wearing clothing and adopting a gender role presentation that, in a given culture, is more typical of the other sex." i.e. we are talking about presentation, and typical as determined by society, not the individual. The perception, by society, is not necessarily the reality.
Lastly, the definition you provided of transgender contradicts much of the foregoing thoughts:"Transgender: Adjective to describe a diverse group of individuals who cross or transcend culturally defined categories of gender. The gender identity of transgender people differs to varying degrees from the sex they were assigned at birth." In other words the adjective is being applied to the individuals, albeit a diverse group, when the reference is to the culturally ascribed norms that are being broken, and not the basic nature of the individual. Thus a man can show emotion and cry at a funeral, for example, which is generally considered a feminine trait, without it impacting his identity as a man. Similarly he can be a stay at home dad and raise the kids, a socially ascribed feminine role, without impacting his identity as a man. Why, then can he not dress and adopt most of the characteristics of appearance that society ascribes to women without it having an impact on his identity as a man?
If it impacts upon his identity of himself, then perhaps he is transgendered, but if not (and nothing says it must) he is not transgendered.
I fail to see why this issue is the subject of such harsh criticism as we find on this and other forums. Rather than disputing the logic, we are psychoanalized and diagnosed as possessing phobias of various sorts, or being unwilling to "accept" what to us is simply not true. We are not disputing that what the majority on these forums say is applicable to many cases, but simply making the point that in our own experience these claims are not universal. We are not all transgendered. Perhaps it is the transgendered who are battling some sort of phobia.
Veronica
Last edited by Veronica27; 11-01-2011 at 05:23 PM.
Here we go.. one more label: transmaleness
I got it when I tried with left eye closed, followed by right eye wink and then a gentle nose tug....
Edit:just kidding, we really need a translator
Last edited by sara.s; 11-01-2011 at 08:47 PM.
Sara, what you call a label, I define as a vehicle that is used to communicate thoughts and ideas. They are necessary. Without them, we'd still be in the ice age.
Veronica, you make excellent points. I don't have the time right now, but I'll get back to you!
Reine
I cried at a funeral once, but I wasn't wearing a dress, so no one thought I was being a sissy-man. If sissy-man is an unintelligible term for some of you, then ask anyone standing nearby what it means the next time you are wearing your meaningless, artificial, insignificant, socially constructed, and objectively indescribable naughty nurse outfit. There is no need to go to Canada for an opinion. Common people everywhere will not have trouble explaining things to you.
Last edited by Pink Person; 11-01-2011 at 09:25 PM.
All of us CDers are actually "TG's in denial" because "we are scared of Trans/Homophobic world and internalization of transphobia in our minds or it makes us lesser men" is a very poor argument. You just keep repeating the same thing over again and again with no respite over 1000's of posts.
And you don't? - Apart from when you accuse people of "losing it" when they point out inconsistencies in your arguments.
Check out this link if you are wondering about joining Safe Haven.
This above all: To thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any
Galileo said "You cannot teach a man anything" and they accuse ME of being sexist
Never ascribe to malice that which can be easily explained by sheer stupidity
Sara, I'm getting the impression you're taking this personally. You said earlier that you are not transgender, that for you it is a costume. I believe you. This discussion is not about you, specifically, it's about the thousands of members here who do feel, act, and look feminine when they dress, and this is reflected in their posts if you take the time to read them. If I believe what you tell me about yourself, then there is no argument.
Virginia, I still owe you a response.
Reine
Yes! TG is an identity for me! The question could be, "When do you stop being a CD?"
Now for me when I am out in public I do identify and if asked I will say I am a female, that's just me.
However, there are plenty of people here who are quite willing to insist that any male who wears a dress or otherwise dresses or acts in a way they consider "feminine" is "transgender." Just look through this thread. A lot of people here are just not able to conceive of the idea that a male who does something "feminine" might be doing it for any reason other than to express some sort of feminine identity.
And while we can walk away from cd.com if we feel the folks here are just too bloody-minded, there are people in RL who apply the same Procrustean bed to us who we can't so easily walk away from (e.g., mental health professionals.) For a variety of reasons, I am fairly privileged, in that I can mostly blow such people off. Lots of people -- children in particular -- are not so privileged.
I have no problem with people calling themselves "transgender" if they feel it describes themselves. And to judge just from the titles of the posts here, there are an enormous number of people here for whom it is very much about their gender identity (or identities.)
What I object to is when people want lump together everyone whose behavior society sees as "crossing gender lines" under labels which imply that that behavior is about gender identity, and I argue that "transgender" is one such label.
Last edited by Asche; 11-02-2011 at 04:44 AM.
The definition saysHowever you identify, what you do fits the adjective.Transgender: Adjective to describe a diverse group of individuals who cross or transcend culturally defined categories of gender.
Check out this link if you are wondering about joining Safe Haven.
This above all: To thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any
Galileo said "You cannot teach a man anything" and they accuse ME of being sexist
Never ascribe to malice that which can be easily explained by sheer stupidity
This thread, having throughly deconstructed "transgender" to the point of meaninglessness, has now devolved into a discussion of the meaning of "is."
Reductio ab Clintonum. And you know what the result of THAT is ... unimpeachable logic.
Lea
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