Bi, when dressed

[AndreaCD1963]

IMHO - you are who you are, regardless of your outer appearance / presentation. As so many others have said already, orientation doesn't change based on clothing. Perhaps willingness to allow yourself to accept it does when dressed.

I know that for me, I too thought for a long time that orientation and clothing choices were interconnected. But, as has also already been pointed out, IF the desires are acted upon then at some point the outer persona of the clothing is shed. Once I realized this for myself, I was able to disassociate orientation and dressing. I am simply me. I dress because it is something I have to do. My attraction to women or men is also something I can't control, it simply is what it is. I can only control my actions - and as I have a GG SO, I live hetro. But I'm still bi (and yes, she knows I'm bi).

[Misti]

I'll go out on a limb here and I know there is at least one philosopher on this board so it might take an interesting turn.

An actor playing a role takes on the character's persona and characteristics. Method actors are known for immersing themselves in their characters to the point they have been known to remain in character even when the cameras are not running or they are not on stage. The point is that actors, in taking on a role, often absorb characteristics of the character they are portraying, sometimes, very convincingly.

In the case of the OP, is it possible that, in dressing as a woman, he takes on the characteristics of that particular woman who, I think we can all agree, is inside him. Is it possible that he, in his drab self, loves chicken wings and beer. But, when he is dressed, he prefers cosmopolitans and tapas. So, would it be a stretch to say that the woman inside him is bisexual but he is not?

Again, I think that by virtue of us being who we are (crossdressers), we do take on a role when we dress. Clothes, we know (by societal and own reactions) are more than just the fabric cut, sewn, and configured in certain ways. Clothes are an identity. We go to job interviews dressed one way and to a BBQ dressed in another way because they put forth an identity. Some may say they are identities.

By the way, in drab mode, I am very conservative; when I dress, it is as provocative and borderline ****ty woman. Are there flaws in this logic?

To the Op and Yang: "Not so's you'd notice it!" Sounds reasonable to me, besides, I really like that last paragraph, Yang! Rave on, sweetheart!

[Sandra]

You are what you are and no amount of clothing will make you bi. Clothing doesn't make you bi...and those who think is does are in denial.

[Elizabeth Ann]

It really surprises me how many have such strong and negative reactions to this thread. It is not, "doesn't happen to me" or "seems unlikely" or even "does experiment confirm this." No, it is categorical statements that this is absolutely, positively impossible.

Where do you get such knowledge? Is there some secret text of the divine rules of crossdressing that I have yet to find? It must be where all those other dogma are found, such as the one that states that if you start crossdressing, you were always a crossdresser and you can never leave. It is an observation of both philosophy and science that the only permanence is change. Only religion has the Absolute Unchanging Truth.

I have no idea whether sexuality is flexible enough to change when crossdressing, but I think it must be acknowledged as possible. Life is full of examples where we change our wants and desires because of outside stimuli. Forum members constantly talk of the changes that come over them when they dress. Why is sexuality singled out as the one characteristic that cannot possibly change when dressed? I have an uneasy feeling that it is because, for some, if such a change was acknowledged as even possible, crossdressing becomes a much more dangerous activity.

Liz

[ReineD]

By the way, in drab mode, I am very conservative; when I dress, it is as s provocative and borderline ****ty woman.

Are there flaws in this logic?

Again, I think that it's different for everyone but I do not find a change in sexual preference due to clothing to be improbable, unlikely or impossible. I find it very much in the realm of possibility and can say I have experienced shifting preferences due to what I am wearing.

I wonder if you just have a very rich sexual fantasy life, combined with a strong libido and gender elasticity. How do you think you'd react if you found yourself in bed with another man? Maybe this depends on the strength of a CDer's libido, his fantasy, and his ability to throw himself into it? In other words, a fantasy might be enticing, yet in real life it wouldn't work?

Take little kids. Some have a strong ability to become the character they dress up as .. a super hero, or Peter Pan, or a favorite cartoon character. They throw themselves into it with the full force of their imaginations, while others just think the exercise is silly. They just can't let themselves go.

As to having different personalities dressed vs. not dressed, I wonder if you've created a sharp internal gender division in order to prevent others from seeing your feminine self over the years.

You should give your guy self permission to do some of the things that so far you've only allowed your femme self to do, like, I don't know ... dancing, or enjoying certain hobbies for example, and see where this leads you.

I wonder if the fantasies of being with a man while dressed (for someone who normally identifies as a hetero male) speaks to the fetish (for lack of a better term) aspect of the CDing more than sexual preference, even if at other times the motives for dressing aren't sexual.

[GBJoker]

I am bisexual 24/7. My clothes do not affect my sexuality.

They do make it interesting or extremely uncomfortable (in a sexual way), depending on who I'm talking to though...

As to having different personalities dressed vs. not dressed, I wonder if you've created a sharp internal gender division in order to prevent others from seeing your feminine self over the years.

I do have different personalities though when in guy or girl clothes. I don't believe that is the reason behind this event though.

[sanderlay]

Elizabeth Ann wrote:
It really surprises me how many have such strong and negative reactions to this thread. It is not, "doesn't happen to me" or "seems unlikely" or even "does experiment confirm this." No, it is categorical statements that this is absolutely, positively impossible.

Liz... I would have to agree. I don't want to tell anyone how they should feel... or think... or what they are not. How would they know? They are not me. I can only tell you about myself... how I feel. If it relates to you... then great.

BrendaT wrote:
Wow, didn't expect all the replies telling me what I am. I agree with the above, it is a metaphor to discribe exactly that I only find men remotely attractive when I'm dressed, and then I'm picky. I know I'm BI, I'm not confused about that at all, i was really asking a more light hearted question and I should have wrote it like this, "who here is bi and is really only attracted to men when dressed". If I'm in guy mode I might take a look at some really hot guy like Mark Whalburg, but I just don't think about it alot in guy mode. But OMG when I'm dressed I just feel much more attracted to good looking men.

Brenda... Thanks for the questions. It has been an education to see how others react to "dressing" and sexual attraction.

I'm not Bi... but sexual attraction is so complex and is obviously different for every person. But I refuse to think inside the box. I want to expand MY horizons... think different from the established norms. Because what is normal? Not me! Being a "bi-gender or two spirited person" is certainly outside the box... not average. Wearing clothing of both genders is not average or normal in our current society. I wish it was. So why should my sexuality be normal? It is my own.

[Maddie22]

There are many people, especially folks outside the LGBT community (and even in the community for that matter) who believe that it is impossible for a man to be bisexual. These people believe that they are really just homosexual, and are not ready to come completely out of the proverbial closet.

From the responses on this thread, I believe it is reasonable to believe that many of us would disagree with the assumption that it is impossible for a man to be bisexual.

I would say that all of us in the forum know that just because you're a crossdresser doesn't mean you're homosexual.

So knowing all of this, why couldn't one be attracted to men only when dressed? There are people who are bi-gendered or gender-fluid. Why can't their orientation be fluid as well depending on the gender they are presenting or feel at the present moment?

Both gender and orientation are both on a continuum after all; why can we not grasp that differences can and will differ from each person to the next no matter how close they can be perceived to being like ourselves? Nothing is absolute.

[ReineD]

I am bisexual 24/7. My clothes do not affect my sexuality.

They do make it interesting or extremely uncomfortable (in a sexual way), depending on who I'm talking to though...

I do have different personalities though when in guy or girl clothes. I don't believe that is the reason behind this event though.

What do you think causes the difference in your two personalities?

I think many people in this tread do not understand, me included, the idea of a split personality where tastes and sexual attraction change this drastically based on just the clothes that someone wears. You see it in children as they go off into fantasy land, but in adults? It almost seems dissociative. I'm not passing judgment but rather commenting on the idea that such a condition is in the DSM as "Dissociative Identity Disorder" and it requires psychiatric evaluation. Now maybe there is only a red flag when the different personalities aren't aware of each other, such as in the movies, "Sybil" or "The Three Faces of Eve"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissoci...ntity_disorder

Obviously all CDs are fully aware of their femme selves when they're in guy mode. But to be different personalities with different tastes and sexual attractions is something that I do not understand. I do understand a hetero CD having a fantasy about being with a guy, in order to emphasize the feeling of femininity during the fantasy though, and not because there is a real attraction to the guy. And of course if the CD is gay to begin with then nothing changes.

[Momarie]

For a few around here, I have to wonder if cross dressing is just a convoluted way to allow themselves to have sex with other men without having to face facts.
That they are attracted to men.

Just be happy with who you are and own it.
It's really ok...you have the right to be just who you are and life would be so much easier for you if you would just accept yourself.

[Elizabeth Ann]

I think many people in this tread do not understand, me included, the idea of a split personality where tastes and sexual attraction change this drastically based on just the clothes that someone wears. You see it in children as they go off into fantasy land, but in adults?

For a few around here, I have to wonder if cross dressing is just a convoluted way to allow themselves to have sex with other men without having to face facts.
That they are attracted to men.

Okay, one more time, but I am getting really tired of the patronizing "these children don't understand, but I know the REAL TRUTH" attitude.

Could we not turn Momarie's comment on its head: I wonder if denial of this possibility is just a convoluted way to allow themselves to dress without having to face facts. That their sexuality might be flexible. It seems just as plausible, but infinitely more threatening to one's self image.

Tastes and desires change constantly. I didn't want an iphone until I knew they existed, and I didn't want one after I got my android. No split personality involved. Yes, it is a trivial example, but the point is that human beings are subjective creatures. Water feels hot or cold depending on the temperature of our hand. And even our psychological makeup is subjective. We fall in and out of love in ways we claim are beyond our control. We often believe what we want to believe, and remember things in the way we want to remember. Even in the extreme, it is a common observation that soldiers go to their death at least in part because that is what is expected of them.

Several have stated here that they have bisexual feelings only when dressed. Instead of trying to understand it, many have simply rejected it outright. Which, of course, means they have to attack those individuals as wrong and deluded, unable to face the truth as all the rest of us know it to be. Why is this issue not even worthy of analysis and debate? Why must it be rejected immediately?

I would have thought this group in particular would be tolerant of nuance in your personality. Virtually everyone here talks of a "gender spectrum." If one of us tells the group we are at a certain point on that spectrum, their word is usually accepted. But if that person should attempt to wander across a "sexuality spectrum" they are immediately told that they are fooling themselves, that there are only three points: straight, bi, or gay. There is nothing else.

I don't know if there are people who are bi when dressed, but I know there are people who believe they are, and I have heard nothing on this thread to dispute this belief.

Liz

[Badtranny]

For a few around here, I have to wonder if cross dressing is just a convoluted way to allow themselves to have sex with other men without having to face facts.
That they are attracted to men.

Just be happy with who you are and own it.
It's really ok...you have the right to be just who you are and life would be so much easier for you if you would just accept yourself.

Perfectly stated.

If clothes made me straight or manly, I would have found them and worn them 24/7 years ago.

Clothes don't make me anything except fashionably cute.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Frankly elizabeth it is not up to anyone to prove that clothes do not have magical sexuality changing powers... everybody just knows they don't.

there is no lack of tolerance here, just a lack of honesty...
hey guess what..it's ok to be a little gay now and then..

when i dated guys prior to my transition, every single guy would tell me he was not gay...but they all sure liked my body parts..

[chloe23]

Frankly elizabeth it is not up to anyone to prove that clothes do not have magical sexuality changing powers... everybody just knows they don't.

there is no lack of tolerance here, just a lack of honesty...
hey guess what..it's ok to be a little gay now and then..

when i dated guys prior to my transition, every single guy would tell me he was not gay...but they all sure liked my body parts..

I agree with you Kaitlyn on this one, it all boils down to the male stigma thing...........with a pre-op woman, they feel they are not crossing the line that makes them gay or bi

[LIKETODRESS2]

Well all i wear is panties so i am dressed ina way all the time so i am bi all the time but i was bi before i started to dresss so i am bi all the timne

[bridgetta]

definition is a manmade thing.. nature does not make straight lines.. .. but.. me.. i dont get involved with it.

[ReineD]

Okay, one more time, but I am getting really tired of the patronizing "these children don't understand, but I know the REAL TRUTH" attitude.

It was not my intention to compare CDers to children. But, I have observed that a fantasy life for a CDer can be very rich (have a look at many of the threads here ... one recently asked if others also experience PMS), perhaps richer than it is for non-CDing adults. Maybe this happens because many of the CDers need to repress their urges in order to function in their families, their jobs, and their society, and fantasy is a healthy coping mechanism. In fact, fantasy may be the only outlet for some people. But you cannot deny that daily, major personality and sexual attraction fluctuation is a concept that is foreign to people who do not experience this.

Tastes and desires change constantly. I didn't want an iphone until I knew they existed, and I didn't want one after I got my android. No split personality involved.

This is true, and I experienced the same when I migrated to a Mac from a PC. But this was a case of my tastes evolving over time, not switching back and forth on a daily basis. The people who describe personality changes are not describing trivial tastes, such as one day I may feel like eating fish while the next I may want chicken. They are also not describing slow changes over time. These are major, daily fluctuations. Back and forth. One person is extremely outgoing and uninhibited when dressed, yet reserved and shy as a guy. Why is this? One person likes men when dressed but not as a guy. I am not putting these people down, but not having experienced fluctuating sexual attractions, it is something I have difficulty understanding.

I do understand that a person might start out feeling they are hetero, and some years later realize they are bi, only to some years later settle on a same-sex attraction. I gather this is rather a normal progression for some people who come to terms with being homosexual. But switching back and forth and then insisting one is hetero? It just doesn't make sense.

Is is wrong to ask the questions, or to challenge the beliefs in order to try to understand?

I would have thought this group in particular would be tolerant of nuance in your personality. Virtually everyone here talks of a "gender spectrum." If one of us tells the group we are at a certain point on that spectrum, their word is usually accepted. But if that person should attempt to wander across a "sexuality spectrum" they are immediately told that they are fooling themselves, that there are only three points: straight, bi, or gay. There is nothing else.

I don't know if there are people who are bi when dressed, but I know there are people who believe they are, and I have heard nothing on this thread to dispute this belief.

I think most of us can pick up on rationalization or denial, especially those of us who have gone through similar denial. It is not being bi that is questioned or judged, it is the fact that a CDer abhors men when in guy mode, and fantasizes about them in femme mode. And it switches, day to day, not slowly over time as one would expect.

So the question is, is it a real change in sexual attraction .. would a dressed, self-reported hetero CD enjoy the real-life experience with a man and climax, or would he turn away in disgust when faced with the real-life situation? If he turns away in disgust then he is not bi, and his fantasies are not about a sexual attraction to any man. They are instead about seeking a level of heightened femininity in fantasy. If he loves the experience with a man dressed and he wants more, then he must be bi and he should look into facing the fact that he would feel this way even when he is not dressed.

If he can only love being with men when he fantasizes himself as a woman, then the sexual experience isn't so much about who he's with, but his fantasy about himself, such as experienced with autogynephilia (the love of oneself as a woman), and the guy then is just a prop. If this is the case, I would not want to be that guy. I would feel used. But, that's just me.

[Elizabeth Ann]

If he can only love being with men when he fantasizes himself as a woman, then the sexual experience isn't so much about who he's with, but his fantasy about himself, such as experienced with autogynephilia (the love of oneself as a woman), and the guy then is just a prop. If this is the case, I would not want to be that guy. I would feel used. But, that's just me.

Reine,

Isn't this the very proposition that "bi when dressed" proponents are suggesting? This seems to me to be a reasonable statement of what they are experiencing. I would even go so far as to suggest that if sexuality is defined by actions, or even by immediate desires, these individuals are indeed straight in male mode and bi when dressed.

And I wouldn't worry too much about the man feeling used. I would suspect that he would have few complaints either way.

Liz

[SallyS]

I have to say that as a man I don't think about men in a sexual way!
However when I 'switch', I would say that I have thought about fulfilling my female desires

But a) I'm in a monogamous relationship and b) I just wouldn't know how to go about it

The thought of another man getting near my man bits just doesn't do it for me!

I have the utmost admiration for all those who can a do live the life they desire....I'm happy, if not truly complete, but I choose not to physically explore the sexual side of Sally.

To those that do, I hope it's a exciting as I imagine it to be!?!

[Rondalake]

I think I might beiing bi when I'm dressed but I've never been in a situation where I would know. I would be too frighten to actually find out. However, I often wonder about having sex while I'm dressed. After all I think this would be the ultimate expression of being a women.

Roni

[wfmlover]

yes i think i'm the one

[ReineD]

Reine,

Isn't this the very proposition that "bi when dressed" proponents are suggesting? This seems to me to be a reasonable statement of what they are experiencing. I would even go so far as to suggest that if sexuality is defined by actions, or even by immediate desires, these individuals are indeed straight in male mode and bi when dressed.

And I wouldn't worry too much about the man feeling used. I would suspect that he would have few complaints either way.

Liz

I'll give you that. I were a man having sex, then I guess I wouldn't spend too much time feeling used.

If sexuality is defined by real-life actions, then it is incorrect to assume that someone is bi just based on a fantasy. It is more accurate to say, "I am a hetero male who fantasizes about men when dressed because it emphasizes my femininity. The man is a prop, and in real life I'd run away screaming".

I do believe this is what the people in the thread are saying. You're bi if you do it and enjoy it (but then you'd be bi all the time, not just when dressed), but if you only fantasize about it then it's just a fantasy.

Or do I misunderstand what you are saying?

[NathalieX66]

Rondalake, if it's any consolation, I can say that I've been out amongst those who were straigh/bi/gay.

In my case, guys are not my thing because I am not attracted to them, never was.
But there's one aspect about being out & about is that there are those who are interested in me. At best I've had guys compliment me, and buy me drinks , and what's neat about that is I feel like I'm being objectified in a very ladylike feminine fashion. it's a very unique feeling. What's bad about it is I feel like I'm being objectified in a very ladylike feminine fashion.
There has been an occasion or two where I've had to deal with the lone wolf that won't leave me alone. Try that one on for size....that's a problem real women have to deal with. I've had roaming hands on me too, which I don't dig,and my defenses go up.....I'm lez.
All I want to do is go out, be me and wear something pretty, and sometimes sexy. It's a difficult road, and all is not perfect, but i can see where the guys come in. If the idea of being swept off your feet by a gentleman is your thing, fine wonderful then enjoy the moment. I'll be hanging with the Melissa Etheridge/Ellen Degeneres crowd.

[GBJoker]

What do you think causes the difference in your two personalities?

I have no idea. I've researched quite a bit on split personality disorders, and found that I am not even close to being diagnosed with anything like that. Despite that, there are two very different people depending on whether I'm dressed up or not.

And of course, my signature butthead answer: "If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it be multiple choice."

tastes

Can you explain this word further, so that I can give you the most definitive answer possible?

For a few around here, I have to wonder if cross dressing is just a convoluted way to allow themselves to have sex with other men without having to face facts.
That they are attracted to men.

Just be happy with who you are and own it.
It's really ok...you have the right to be just who you are and life would be so much easier for you if you would just accept yourself.

I dunno about many people on here, so I'm not entirely sure how accurate your statement might be. BUT!, for me personally, I knew there was something weird about me a long time ago; before I was old enough to comprehend sexuality and CD'ing, and so forth. I also learned, as I grew older, that the CD'ing does affect my sexuality, but that I am still attracted to both sexes no matter what clothes I have on. To clarify, I'm bi, I CD once every blue (red? harvest?) moon, and those can easily be seperated for me. I believe (based on being in chatrooms, if that counts for anything) that dressing up would bring... new, I guess, things to the bedroom... I dunno...

I started this thinking I had perfect answers, only to realize as I was typing that since I've little experience in both arenas (compared to normal people for the sex stuff, and the forum members for the CD stuffs) that I've yet to learn how to put into words exactly what's in my head.

We fall in and out of love in ways...

What is this... "love" you speak of?

Final thought, and I'll stop bugging you guys with super-de-duper long posts: This whole thread is insanely confusing... Especially if you don't know who is what and where is when and how is why.

And yes, I did do an exclamation point followed by a comma. What's your point?

[Elizabeth Ann]

If he can only love being with men when he fantasizes himself as a woman, then the sexual experience isn't so much about who he's with, but his fantasy about himself, such as experienced with autogynephilia (the love of oneself as a woman), and the guy then is just a prop. If this is the case, I would not want to be that guy. I would feel used. But, that's just me.

Reine,

Isn't this the very proposition that "bi when dressed" proponents are suggesting? This seems to me to be a reasonable statement of what they are experiencing. I would even go so far as to suggest that if sexuality is defined by actions, or even by immediate desires, these individuals are indeed straight in male mode and bi when dressed.

And I wouldn't worry too much about the man feeling used. I would suspect that he would have few complaints either way.

Liz

I'll give you that. I were a man having sex, then I guess I wouldn't spend too much time feeling used.

If sexuality is defined by real-life actions, then it is incorrect to assume that someone is bi just based on a fantasy. It is more accurate to say, "I am a hetero male who fantasizes about men when dressed because it emphasizes my femininity. The man is a prop, and in real life I'd run away screaming".

I do believe this is what the people in the thread are saying. You're bi if you do it and enjoy it (but then you'd be bi all the time, not just when dressed), but if you only fantasize about it then it's just a fantasy.

Or do I misunderstand what you are saying?

Now I am a bit confused. I thought your hypothetical was of a crossdresser so caught up in the fantasy that she/he does consummate a relationship with a man. Operationally, this would appear to the casual observer as an individual who is straight in male garb, and bisexual in female attire, regardless of their internal motivation.

I assume from the posts in this thread, and elsewhere, that there actually are crossdressers who have sexual relationships only with women when in male mode, and include men as well when in female mode. This is what I meant by sexuality defined by actions. I didn't think discussants were denying the existence of such persons, only that they were deluding themselves about being straight. I suppose that in your scenario, many might argue that such a person was deluding themselves about being bi.

Liz