Bi, when dressed

[ReineD]

Now I am a bit confused. I thought your hypothetical was of a crossdresser so caught up in the fantasy that she/he does consummate a relationship with a man. Operationally, this would appear to the casual observer as an individual who is straight in male garb, and bisexual in female attire, regardless of their internal motivation.

I assume from the posts in this thread, and elsewhere, that there actually are crossdressers who have sexual relationships only with women when in male mode, and include men as well when in female mode. This is what I meant by sexuality defined by actions. I didn't think discussants were denying the existence of such persons, only that they were deluding themselves about being straight. I suppose that in your scenario, many might argue that such a person was deluding themselves about being bi.

Liz

It is confusing, and I'm sorry if it is taking me a few tries to articulate this.

First, I've seen posts here from CDers who were convinced that trans-admirers (the men who say they are straight, but who are specifically drawn to other men with penises who present as women)** are into them as women. The fantasy to perform as a woman sexually is so strong that the CDer will convince himself that he is a woman who is seeing a man who treats him like a woman, so therefore it is a heterosexual encounter.

Is this CDer gay since he is attracted to men? Or in his delusion of being a woman, is he straight? He thinks he is straight, yet by society's standards, these are two men who are having gay sex. They are homosexual, even though for a time, one of them identifies as a woman. Caveat: if the person who is presenting as a female is a non-op or pre-op transsexual, then she does identify permanently as a woman and so she, at least, is not having gay sex, even though the trans-admirer is. If however the man she is having sex with is not a trans-admirer and he ignores the penis and sees it as much as a hindrance as the TS, then neither of them are having gay sex.

There are too many "ifs".

I spoke earlier of a CDer who knows he is a man, identifies as a man most of the time and considers himself to be hetero while in male mode. If he has sex while dressed with a trans-admirer, they are both most definitely having gay sex since the basis for attraction is the other's penis. Even if this CDer's motive is autogynephilic, he is still having gay sex. If he enjoys his experiences with men, he is not hetero. If he also enjoys having sex with women whether he is dressed or not, he is bi whether or not he likes to admit it when he is in male mode.

If this same CDer has only ever had sex with women and the thought of having sex with a man is repulsive to him, I don't think this would change during an actual encounter with a man, no matter how much he uses a faceless man when he masturbates to an autogynephilic fantasy. In this case, the CDer would not be bi.



** These trans-admirers are not attracted to birth females and they drop transwomen as soon as they have SRS.

[Elizabeth Ann]

I think you are having fun with me now. Let me see if I have got this. If he is a she, but really a he, and has sex with him, then she is bi, even when she is he. Unless he really is a she, in which case she is straight but the other is gay. Now if the other would rather he be a she, then they are both straight. But if she, who is really a he, would rather the other to be a her than a him, then she who is a he is just kidding him or herself. But I thought you, who really is a her, allowed the possibility that she who is really a he wanted so much to be a her, that she would have sex with him, but not when she is a he. That would seem to me, merely a he, that he when a she was bi, but not when she was a he.

I think I am going to cry uncle, or maybe it is aunt, and go to bed. She who really is a she is asleep up there waiting for me to be a he.

Sweet dreams,
Liz

[BrendaT]

either you are "BI" or you aren't, you sexual orientation does not change by the clothes you wear. I mean really think about it!! That is just none sense to think a peice of clothing would change your sexual prefernce, Face the facts.

Hummm, the fact is I have stated that I am BI, ( by society's boxed standards of behavior) I am totally comfortable with it, love it, embrace it, that's the way I was made. But let me make this statement and see if it makes sense to anyone. Let me preface this statement with this, "this is not the way I feel, just making a point".

I think anyone who is a crossdresser is either BI or Gay, face the facts, quit hiding from your fears, it only makes sense that if you want to look like a woman then you must have the desires a woman has which is to be with a man. Anyone who says different is just living a lie. Your BI or Gay, deal with it.

Now, is that not a closed minded statement? Isn't that what we would expect from closed minded people that just can't come to grips with the fact we are not all the same? God or nature, depending on what your believe, has made us all different, unique, and special. I really started this thread to talk to folks that feel the way I do and instead I have tons of people telling me to quit kidding myself, admit it, bla bla. Truly I believed this would be the right place to talk about this kind of thing without being made to feel unusual or odd, but I can go to any forum on the net and get this kind of thinking. Not trying to pick a fight or anything, just stating a fact.

To the statement above about how a simple cloth can't have power to change someone. I was in the military for 21 years, and I agree that when putting on the uniform it changes the way you see yourself, all the years of tradition, and the history, the soldiers before you that wore the uniform embolden you and give you a total feeling of invincibility. That's why as I soldier I will move head long into a fight not thinking about my welfare but of others around me. That's why I will take great risk to do my job. Is that courage in me some where when I don't have on the uniform? Could be, but there are massive motivational forces acting on you when you pull on those combat boots and you see that American flag on your arm and your buddies standing beside you. So don't discount the power of the facade. Haven't you ever put on a really nice suit and felt different? Felt like you could take on the world? You look good, people think you look good, so your attitude changes about yourself.

By the way, what is nonsense is the way you spelled nonsense. Lol. Just kidding.

[Bell]

First post!

Anyways, I am bi when dressed!
Don't find guys attractive but when I'm dressed I have the sexual desires of a woman.

[Dixie]

Shhhhh statements of the "Absolute" are most definitely based on what each of us as individuals feel. I think this way so now that's how everyone must think or this is how I feel so you must feel the same way too. We are all individuals there are no absolutes. Anyone who says they are just want to make everyone else think or feel as they do to give themselves a sense of normality. Example I have a family trait wherein my appendix is in my back not out front, yet I have people tell me that it can't be so because everyone's appendix is in the front. I have relatives who have passed away because the doctors never considered looking anywhere for a ruptured appendix except for where it is "supposed" to be. I do not think anyone has the right to tell someone else who they are or what they must be because that is how they are or aren't!

[kundthu1]

I think anyone who is a crossdresser is either BI or Gay, face the facts, quit hiding from your fears, it only makes sense that if you want to look like a woman then you must have the desires a woman has which is to be with a man. Anyone who says different is just living a lie. Your BI or Gay, deal with it.
i definately disagree with this statement. Just because she is 'BI' she assumes the whole community is like that. I do dress up regularly which does transform my personality making me more sensitive, emotional etc and take over the duties of home maker, but i never even thought of having a relationship with a man an still love the wonderful woman to whom I have been married

[BrendaT]

I think anyone who is a crossdresser is either BI or Gay, face the facts, quit hiding from your fears, it only makes sense that if you want to look like a woman then you must have the desires a woman has which is to be with a man. Anyone who says different is just living a lie. Your BI or Gay, deal with it.
i definately disagree with this statement. Just because she is 'BI' she assumes the whole community is like that. I do dress up regularly which does transform my personality making me more sensitive, emotional etc and take over the duties of home maker, but i never even thought of having a relationship with a man an still love the wonderful woman to whom I have been married

Wow, did you read the whole post or not? You must not have read the sentence above that or the paragraph below that.

[Julie1123]

I'm at least bi-curious but I don't think it has anything to do with what I'm wearing.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

i know i posted about the guys who claim they are not gay..
if you think i am bashing them, far from it...and the same goes for cd's that are "bi" but only in girl mode..

i'm saying don't worry about it.. perhaps you don't worry about it...that seems like the right answer.. these guys don't have to tell me they are or are not gay... we were having a moment...we were enjoying our time together...and yet they were compelled
to proactively tell me they were NOT GAY...this is even though they play with male sex parts...and even tho they are uninterested in me now! (the feeling is paramutual, i'm insured..if anybody gets that reference i'll hug them)..
my attitude was at first "whatever"...but it feels sad to me..

fantasizing about men and acting with men seems like a very natural extension of crossdressing for some people......to fantasize about femaleness and play that out with guys seems like a pretty obvious way to go out and about...
but at the core, if your a guy, and you are having sex with a guy...everybody knows what that is and its fine. ..

having been deeply involved in the out and about cd community for many years, i saw alot of sex going on between the crossdressed guys as well.
people ragged on the "creepy" admirers, let them buy drinks and then went had sex amongst themselves, cd with cd... this is very common...i would befriend a cd, and he would come on to me...in my years going out "en femme" i was hit on more by cd's than by admirers...

[Badtranny]

Kaitlyn and Reine,

I can't help but be a bit of a cheerleader cuz you girls have firm grasp of this issue. I would expect Kaitlyn to understand, but once again I'm amazed at how clever and intuitive Reine is. I swear, if I didn't know any better ...

Anyhoo, some CD's are bi, or gay. End of story. The clothes aren't magic and sexuality is immutable. It is what it is. All of the pretending and justifying in the world is not going to change who you are. The guys that I date also claim to be straight. I don't argue with them, but I know that I still have working equipment and they sure know how to work it. Until being gay is no longer an affront to this country's prudish morality, then none of us are really free. I've said this before but there is apparently nothing worse than be considered to be something less than a man.

[ReineD]

Let me see if I have got this. If he is a she, but really a he, and has sex with him, then she is bi, even when she is he. Unless he really is a she, in which case she is straight but the other is gay. Now if the other would rather he be a she, then they are both straight.

Precisely! The penis, in the last case, is an anomaly that simply gets in the way.

But if she, who is really a he, would rather the other to be a her than a him, then she who is a he is just kidding him or herself.

But if she, who is really a he, would rather the other to be a her than a him, then why is she having sex with him rather than the she whom she would rather be having sex with?

But I thought you, who really is a her, allowed the possibility that she who is really a he wanted so much to be a her, that she would have sex with him, but not when she is a he. That would seem to me, merely a he, that he when a she was bi, but not when she was a he.

If she, who is really a he, wants so much to be a her (during sex) that she would have sex with him, and enjoy it, then she needs to understand that she is bi, even when she is back to being a he having sex with a she.

I think I am going to cry uncle, or maybe it is aunt, and go to bed. She who really is a she is asleep up there waiting for me to be a he.

... last night, I who am a she, also cried uncle. Actually my internet went out until this morning and now I have my second wind.

[Elizabeth Ann]

. . . some CD's are bi, or gay. End of story. . . sexuality is immutable. . . All of the pretending . . .

I long for such certainty in life. It would be a great comfort. But I cannot seem to find the source of this great knowledge of the transgender religion. Perhaps someone could point me to the sacred texts.

Badtranny attributes the "bi when dressed" position to homophobia, but consider the possibility that it is just the opposite. Some CD's are willing to admit that under certain conditions the could or have engaged in bisexual behavior. That does not sound homophobic to me. Others have a strongly negative reaction to this possibility. An argument could convincingly be made that some CD's are so frightened by the possibility of being "bi when dressed" that they must immediately reject the very concept, and attack those who do not as "pretending."

Liz

edit, adding another thought (since multiple posts would be merged by admin anyway):

I think this discussion has pretty much run it course. We have several persons who claim to have bisexual desires, and some activities, when dressed, but not when in male mode. To the external observer they appear to be "acting" as a heterosexual male at times, and as a bisexual CD at times. None of us can see what is inside their brains to completely understand their motivations, but that does not prevent all of us (including me) from speculating about it.

Regardless, some here assert that the bisexual times trump the heterosexual times, so that the person is unambiguously bi. It is a bit like saying that Obama is unambiguously black, even though you do know that he is half white.

I don't see any of us changing the other's mind on this, so I suppose we will have to agree to disagree.

Liz

[BrendaT]

Thanks so much for being closed minded and making me regret trying to talk with LIKE minded people. I didn't ask, do you think this is possible, I asked is anyone else bi when dressed. If your not, I truly wish you would have moved on and not replied. I really didn't expect to be told what I am, no one here has even met me but I'm glad it's so easy to judge me and tell me what I should be feeling and how life really is. Geezzzz... I would never suggest someone is not who they are or presume to think I am all knowing and here is the in stone truth about what you are. Moderator, please remove me completely from this site, I can get berated at any forum on the net so I'll just stick to myself. Im obviously to weird to be among you. Thanks.

[ReineD]

Brenda, I'm sorry you feel this way, but your membership here cannot be removed unless you specifically request it from an Admin and give reasons why.

See this thread for a recent discussion about this:http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...ing-an-account

And this page for the form to fill out if you wish to request your account to be removed: http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...ccount_removal

Also please understand this is a discussion forum. You asked if others are bi when dressed, and some people who are, also said their being bi is independent of the dressing. Then a discussion ensued. Everyone in this forum has strong views when it comes to gender and sexual identity since the topic hits so close to home for most people, and the discussion is more about the general principles than any individual. No one is taking away your feelings that you consider yourself bi when dressed and hetero when not.

Still, I will close this thread now. If you change your mind and want me to reopen it, send me a PM and I will.