Definitions outside our forum

[*Vanessa*]

Once again I state the obvious fact. This is where the problem lies. We (trans community) have people, who do not have the proper education nor expertise to employ logical structures and real-world references to convey, process, and assign meaning, as well as to manage and resolve ambiguity.

To this point we have allowed amateurs, popular celebrities, or medical personnel to coin a word or phrase. Would it be too difficult to involve a linguist in any attempt to untangle the terms and definitions we commonly use?

When and whom decided that the terms we use today are correct and proper for us? I have been involved in this community for some where near 40 years. No one has ever asked my opinion as to what I think I should be called or what I think a crossdresser should be called.

If the current words and terms are out of date we should correct them. But, we should do it as a community and not continue to allow just anyone to label us because they are some amateur of the street, popular, a medical quack and do not even belong to our community.

If we are going to do it, do it right once and for all.

wow - aren't we a little angry this morning Jorja..

Sh*t happens!

As a professional photographer I have seen my entire profession hit the drink do to the DLSR and people with more time on their hands to shoot crappy images (amateurs). I am challenged to be better, to take the tools I have learned over the years using ALL of them to be the best I can be. Given that, if I fail then so be it.

Quirky little words and phrases come out of society as part of fabric we live in not universities.

Most important things that need input from ‘more educated’ people in fact take that route. I’m sure there are at least a couple of philosophers that get a little twisted from time to time here as well (in fact I know of one). To stand up on any soapbox and way that flag, you got to expect people to turn their back no matter what education you or they have.

Be nice!

[Sarah Doepner]

It's possible I was either misleading or premature in my orginal post. I didn't want to revisit the effort to come up with a set of terms we can all agree on, other threads have covered that to the point of exhaustion. My intent was to vent over what I saw as the media changing the definition of Transgender and adding to the misrepresentation and misunderstanding of Crossdressers for the general public. I understand we still don't have a base for agreement on the general terminology within this site, let alone the wider community. I'd just like to believe that someday I'd be able to say "I'm a crossdresser" and not have a majority of listeners think I steal panties off clothes lines at night or perform in drag shows. It would be nice to say "I'm transgender" and not have others ask how long I've been on hormones or back away thinking I'm a serial killer when I put on a skirt. Maybe it would be nice if the media could understand and accept the "Gender" vs. "Sex" definitions. I'm not sure they do yet, but when it happens there may be progress beyond our little corners of the world.

[*Vanessa*]

.
and for the most part Sarah your thread has been discussed as intended. It is just one of those tricky posts people seems to don't hear exactly what is being talked about. IMHO

[Jorja]

I am saying the trans community has been around much longer than you and I. Yet, we have terms and definitions that do not begin to cover to those involved. Why? Because people who are seen as popular, medical personnel who have no idea, amateurs who think they have all the answers, and media personnel have been allowed to coin a phrase or a word and those that decided they like that word make it popular and now we are stuck with like it or not. I am sure you can see where that has gotten us.

Instead of sitting at your computer complaining, why don't you create a webpage and put a survey on it. With the following questions:

If you fall under the Transgender umbrella, do you like the current terms and definitions that describe you?

What would you like to be referred to as?

Then go to the current "transgender" websites and get your survey linked to the sites. Allow it to run for say..... 6 months. Take your survey to all the gatherings around the country such as Southern Comfort or have another person take it for you. Now you need to find someone in the other countries of the world to help you obtain their information. Then do the work to assemble the information you have gathered. Take it to a linguist and come up with terms and descriptions that do employ logical structures and real-world references to convey, process, and assign meaning, as well as to manage and resolve ambiguity. Put those words and definitions out to the community and see if they can be lived with.

Or maybe you could start a program that would teach media personnel the difference between "Gender" vs. "Sex" definitions. Before you can do that you will need a unified understanding within the trans community of what those definitions are.

[*Vanessa*]

If you are talking to me jorja, then I would ask "Why me?" It is you that seems to profess that you have all the answer. Why sit there on 'your computer' and try direct other to do your bidding. Ah, of course, that way you would be right no matter what the out come.

[sanderlay]

... I'd just like to believe that someday I'd be able to say "I'm a crossdresser" and not have a majority of listeners think I steal panties off clothes lines at night or perform in drag shows. It would be nice to say "I'm transgender" and not have others ask how long I've been on hormones or back away thinking I'm a serial killer when I put on a skirt. Maybe it would be nice if the media could understand and accept the "Gender" vs. "Sex" definitions. I'm not sure they do yet, but when it happens there may be progress beyond our little corners of the world.

Sarah... I share your dream... and I do so wish to see more tolerance and respect for each person. It has improved a lot from when I was a child... which is part of the reason I'm out of the closet so to speak. But hate crimes are still out there and we have leaps and bounds to go. I agree that education is the key and a few out there have their own website.

I applaud their efforts. I'm not sure I'm ready to be that exposed to society. I haven't yet come out on facebook. Being here is a start for me. Sorry Jorja... I'm not that brave yet.

I also hate having to consider image and what some in society might think about us. Words like... transvestite... says I might do this for... "sexual gratification" ... Some groups see this as a sin in our overly prudish society. That just adds to the idea of... panty thief... pervert... molester... and the sicking list goes on. "Don't come near my school..." ... "Stay away from my kids..." I'm not even sure you can say the m word here without someone being offended.

So I'll stop my venting and get off this soap box. I think I feel a little better now.

Thanks for letting us vent in this thread.

[ReineD]

To those of you who are taking this to a personal level and bickering, Stop It.

Read carefully the original posts, and save your contentious remarks for PMs.

If this continues here I will close this thread.

[Veronica27]

There is nothing sloppy about using transatlantic to describe both the conversation (2 way) and the flight (1 way) both cross the Atlantic.

The sloppiness comes when someone tries to strait-jacket the prefix trans into meaning only one or other of its senses - e.g. someone who insists that the prefix as used in transgender has to have the same precise sense (either uni or multi directional) as it does in transsexual.

The sloppiness to which I was referring was not the limiting of the prefix to mean only one thing (or the other). Rather it was the broadening of it from its original sense which leads to confusion. As used in transexual, it was correct. As used in transgender by those who share The Virginia Prince school of thought it was also correct. But the application of it to include everyone from TS to CD as well as IS and a few others is where things get sloppy.

Veronica

[Pink Person]

Gabba gabba who? Yabba dabba what? Other people don't understand you? It's because some of you don't know how to communicate, with yourself or anyone else.

Transgender people are ones who have a combination of gender characteristics that extends across both genders. Cisgender people are ones who have a combination of gender characteristics that does not extend beyond one gender.

Don't respond by telling me everybody cries and everybody wears dresses, so everybody who cries or wears a dress is transgender. Crying isn't a gender characteristic because both genders do it. Wearing dresses is a gender characteristic because both genders don't do it. Identifying gender characteristics requires an ability to identify general similarities and general differences.

Every transsexual is a transgender person. It is completely accurate to describe them in either way. Not every transgender person is a transsexual. If you are transgender and other people falsely infer you are transsexual then I guess you will just have to "splain" yourself to them, Lucy. You could do it in one sentence, so quit bitching about the irreparable harm this confusion causes you. There is no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Transgender and transsexual are both very useful terms. The problems caused by their misuse are trivial in comparison.

[ReineD]

The issue I'm seeing seems to be the adoption of the term Transgender to mean nearly the same as Transsexual while at the same time making Transvestite and Crossdresser refer to more of a fetish behavior.

Sarah, back to your point in the OP about the media using the term "transgender" synonymously with "transsexual". I think a few pages back I suggested that if the article had been about a crossdressing child, the media might still have used the term "transgender".

This morning I came across an article in Toronto Life about a fairly visible philosophy Professor who teaches at York University (student pop 54,000), in Toronto. He sometimes crossdresses to teach class. Other than the word "naughty" in the article's headline (which I object to, but this might well have been done as a hook), if you read the first paragraph Dr. Gilbert is also characterized as being transgender:

http://www.torontolife.com/features/naughty-professor/

I'm suggesting that we look at a variety of articles, not just the ones who refer to transsexuals as transgenders.

Professor Gilbert has also written an excellent article about what it means to be a "committed crossdresser". This link was posted in another thread by another member, Tailor186:

The Transgendered Philosopher

Prof Gilbert writes about the meaning of transgender, the controversy, and he also acknowledges there are individuals who dress but who do not fall under the transgender umbrella: "... female impersonators who look upon dressing as solely connected to their livelihood, actors undertaking roles, individual males and females enjoying a masquerade, and so on."

The above article is well worth reading. It is one of the best articles I've read that defines the various ways of being a crossdresser, even though the bulk of it is Prof Gilbert's own story.

[sometimes_miss]

I think the biggest problem, is that most of society wants to be able to define what we are in the simplest possible manner. Same way that the medical establishment wants to find the 'one' true reason we crossdress. Unfortunately, it isn't that easy, because why we crossdress/cross gender behavior lines comes from many different reasons. But we're not going to be able to change what people want to do. The want a simple solution, and won't accept anything else. It's the 21st century, and we still have a huge percentage of the world's population that won't accept the concept that race shouldn't be a defining characteristic of any other part of a person's personalilty makeup.

[Sophie86]

I'm suggesting that we look at a variety of articles, not just the ones who refer to transsexuals as transgenders.

Thanks for posting those, Reine. I enjoyed them very much. If you find any more, I hope you'll post them here.

[sanderlay]

Sarah, back to your point in the OP about the media using the term "transgender" synonymously with "transsexual". I think a few pages back I suggested that if the article had been about a crossdressing child, the media might still have used the term "transgender".

This morning I came across an article in Toronto Life about a fairly visible philosophy Professor who teaches at York University (student pop 54,000), in Toronto. He sometimes crossdresses to teach class. Other than the word "naughty" in the article's headline (which I object to, but this might well have been done as a hook), if you read the first paragraph Dr. Gilbert is also characterized as being transgender:

http://www.torontolife.com/features/naughty-professor/

I'm suggesting that we look at a variety of articles, not just the ones who refer to transsexuals as transgenders.

Professor Gilbert has also written an excellent article about what it means to be a "committed crossdresser". This link was posted in another thread by a new member, ElizabethAmy:

The Transgendered Philosopher

Prof Gilbert writes about the meaning of transgender, the controversy, and he also acknowledges there are individuals who dress but who do not fall under the transgender umbrella: "... female impersonators who look upon dressing as solely connected to their livelihood, actors undertaking roles, individual males and females enjoying a masquerade, and so on."

The above article is well worth reading. It is one of the best articles I've read that defines the various ways of being a crossdresser, even though the bulk of it is Prof Gilbert's own story.

Thanks for posting this. These two articles are a very interesting and a very thought provoking read.

I agree that the first article... The Naughty Professor... was poorly named. And I doubt the writer, David Macfarlane, actually came up with the title. The story does not support it in any way. Nothing naughty at all in the story. (Although perhaps... in hind sight... they were trying to play both sides of the political spectrum with the title?) I suspect it was his editor and your theory of a hook makes a lot of sense to some degree. As we all know... Sex sells, or a controversial subject to some... and the magazine is trying to make money by getting traffic and selling advertizing. So I let this name, The Naughty Professor, slide for now.

David's report seems well written and fairly sensitive to transgendered persons, unlike the title, and is well worth the read, especially as an introduction to reading the second article... The Transgendered Philosopher... who is Michael ‘Miqqi Alicia’ Gilbert.

This long but well written article struck a cord with me in many ways as it looks into the average crossdresser in different phases of their life. i could certainly relate to each one.

Of most interest to me was near the end... On Growing Up.
About the seventh and eighth paragraph...

This is where he/she talks about... "... gender as non-bipolar."

A segment of... The Transgendered Philosopher...
by Michael ‘Miqqi Alicia’ Gilbert.

"One recent development, circa 1995, that has, in a burst of synchronicity, appeared in several places within a very short period of time, and is very relevant to these considerations, is the idea of gender as non-bipolar. This idea, which has resulted in discussion of transgendered people of all stripes as not being men or women, but as belonging to the Third, has much to recommend it. For one thing, it makes the "I am really a woman in a man's body" approach out dated. Now it becomes correct to say, "I am a male transgendered person who chooses to present female." (A presenting which may or may not go as far as genital surgery.) This solves many problems, especially political ones, and goes a long way toward undermining the tyranny of the bi-polar gender system on which depends such heavy duty items as the family, hetero and homosexuality, sexism, and the division of society into gender determined roles. This way of thinking opens u many options which go beyond the standard male equals man, female equals woman dichotomy that rules our lives. Once we follow this route there are many possible options - being bi-gendered, non-gendered, multi-gendered, cross-gendered, and on and on. The idea of the "third" is a potent one, especially if it is not considered as one homogeneous category itself. It would not do at all to replace a bipolar system by a tripolar one. The very idea that one need be a gender at all is disposable. It could be replaced by, say, having a set of attributes in various ranges of femininity and masculinity where those are considered as characteristics like being creative or straightforward rather than the most fundamentally defining aspects of a person."

I love this idea, gender as non-bipolar, especially as a bi-gender or two-spirited person as this speaks to the path I am already trying to pursue. We spend to much time trying to fit into our current bipolar gender system and trying to normalize persons. It would put the decision of one's gender back to the person. Let them express who they are and wear what feels comfortable for them.

Religious dogma might stop this from ever coming true... but I can only dream life could someday be fair. For now the best I can hope for is education and tolerance so more persons can feel free to be themselves.

[SIZE="1"]"Never say never"... and... "Dream of what life could be... not what is."[/SIZE]

[ReineD]

I love this idea, gender as non-bipolar ...

Another way to refer to this is a 'gender binary'. You might have read this term several times at cd.com. It describes a belief that people are either male or female, and does not allow any gender variance in between the binaries. The truth is, there are many CDers who fit somewhere in between the two binaries. They are not TS (they do not feel they were born in the wrong body), but they also don't always quite click with their male peers and they certainly wish to present as women even if it is only on occasion.

[Rianna Humble]

Hi Sanderlay, I found your quote from The Transgender Philosopher quite interesting, but just want to question one part - where it says

This idea, which has resulted in discussion of transgendered people of all stripes as not being men or women, but as belonging to the Third, has much to recommend it. For one thing, it makes the "I am really a woman in a man's body" approach out dated

Up to that last phrase, I was having no difficulty with what was written, but is it entirely fair to deny the reality of a transsexual's life experience just to allow for the existence of other gender expressions?

You qualify yourself as "Bi-gender or two-spirited" and you can see from my other writings on these forums that I accept that reality; but unlike my interpretation of the above quote, I do not need to deny who I am in order to accept who you are.

[sara.s]

Labels are labels and everyone's definitions seem different and honestly we are all different. I consider myself trangender because I fell like a girl inside ...

Thank you for coming out. This is what separates a casual crossdresser from a Transgender.

[sanderlay]

Hi Sanderlay, I found your quote from The Transgender Philosopher quite interesting, but just want to question one part - where it says

This idea, which has resulted in discussion of transgendered people of all stripes as not being men or women, but as belonging to the Third, has much to recommend it. For one thing, it makes the "I am really a woman in a man's body" approach out dated

Up to that last phrase, I was having no difficulty with what was written, but is it entirely fair to deny the reality of a transsexual's life experience just to allow for the existence of other gender expressions?

You qualify yourself as "Bi-gender or two-spirited" and you can see from my other writings on these forums that I accept that reality; but unlike my interpretation of the above quote, I do not need to deny who I am in order to accept who you are.

I can't speak for Michael ‘Miqqi Alicia’ Gilbert and exactly what he/she meant by what you have quoted. But I believe every one should be able to present who they feel they are without the restriction of two genders. Those who wish to present as male or female or what ever... should be able do so no mater what their birth gender is or was. Expand the choices without restriction.

But here is my take on this idea of "gender as non-bipolar". And perhaps I'm miss understanding Michael ‘Miqqi Alicia’ Gilbert's idea... or interpretation of it.

What if society, when you were a small child, did not put you in a labeled gender... male or female. Children started with unisex clothing at first. Toys were all unisex and you got to choose what to play with. You were not forced into a male or female role. Your anatomy did not play a part in your gender identity. You got to choose your own path... dress as you wanted.

Some persons in that society might be male... some female... some might be a mix of both... some might appear androgynous... and so on.

The person... not their gender... is what is important. The society would not be dominated by one gender or group as the dominate... like today as a..."mans world."

Gender specific roles would be gone. Your talents as a person would be more important. All clothing would be considered unisex. Etc...

[ReineD]

Some persons in that society might be male... some female... some might be a mix of both... some might appear androgynous... and so on.

That's true!

But there will never be a way to measure the percentage of people who would wish to remain either male or female, and those who would naturally fall in the middle. I think there are enough resources online now and certainly enough awareness in our society even if it is not outright approval, that if anyone experiences a desire to express a gender different than their assigned gender, they will find a way to do something about it, or certainly join forums to talk about it.

And the rest of the gender binaries will continue to go on their merry way, oblivious to it all.

It's fun to dream about your scenario though, but at the same time I think it would be productive to just work on doing what we can to help the mainstream understand about gender variance. The community needs to work together to change the laws, advocate for gender education in schools, and hopefully more and more people in forums such as this one will feel encouraged to go out dressed which will help to further the awareness that transgenders exist, if even on a small scale.

[sara.s]

I'm suggesting that we look at a variety of articles, not just the ones who refer to transsexuals as transgenders.

Professor Gilbert has also written an excellent article about what it means to be a "committed crossdresser". This link was posted in another thread by a new member, ElizabethAmy:

The Transgendered Philosopher

Prof Gilbert writes about the meaning of transgender, the controversy, and he also acknowledges there are individuals who dress but who do not fall under the transgender umbrella: "... female impersonators who look upon dressing as solely connected to their livelihood, actors undertaking roles, individual males and females enjoying a masquerade, and so on."

The above article is well worth reading. It is one of the best articles I've read that defines the various ways of being a crossdresser, even though the bulk of it is Prof Gilbert's own story.

Hi there we meet again

Thanks for the link. What the professor says is actually very right and just elaborates what I have been saying all along.

Quoting from York University Professor.

'Transgendered' applied to an individual signifies some degree of discomfort, all or some of the time with one's birth-assigned gender designation.

Notice first that this is a self-evaluative notion rather than an externally assigned category; i.e., one decides at some point that being in the birth-designated pigeon-hole one was placed in is either inadequate, inappropriate, too limiting, or just plain wrong as a description of one's own gender identity. Secondly, note that not everyone who plays with gender is transgendered, insofar as the playing may not be initiated by discomfort, but, perhaps, by professional requirements, sex play, masquerade or what have you. Finally, note that one does not have to do anything with this discomfort in order to qualify as transgendered. It is the having of the discomfort rather then the acting on it that precipitates the classification, which also means that one can easily be transgendered and never so identified.

The 1st comment in red, basically talks about discomfort by one confusing their gender identity as different to the gender assigned at birth.
The 4th comment in red, we infer that this discomfort ALONE classifies one as Transgender rather than acting on it (Crossdressing in this context).
The 2nd comment in red just clarifies that one's Gender Identity is an internal to oneself and not subjective to another person's interpretation based on makeup and presentation.
The 3rd comment in red flatly says that we can wear whatever we want with full makeup or no makeup and yet not be classified as Transgendered.

[Rianna Humble]

What if society, when you were a small child, did not put you in a labeled gender... male or female. Children started with unisex clothing at first. Toys were all unisex and you got to choose what to play with. You were not forced into a male or female role. Your anatomy did not play a part in your gender identity. You got to choose your own path... dress as you wanted.

Some persons in that society might be male... some female... some might be a mix of both... some might appear androgynous... and so on.

The person... not their gender... is what is important. The society would not be dominated by one gender or group as the dominate... like today as a..."mans world."

Gender specific roles would be gone. Your talents as a person would be more important. All clothing would be considered unisex. Etc...

No, I'm sorry I don't buy into that one. I would still be a woman betrayed by a body which has the wrong configuration and the wrong sex organs and which was constantly being poisoned by testosterone (since you don't like the phrase "trapped in a man's body I had to find another way of explaining the same concept). My mind knew that before I ever learnt about "gender roles".

As I said before - all mention of bipolar disorder apart - I understand about gender not being binary, but I don't buy into it being non-existent. For those of us who are TS - whether MtF like me or FtM - it has nothing to do with the clothing and everything to do with our gender identity being at odds with our body.

[Alyla]

Another way to refer to this is a 'gender binary'. You might have read this term several times at cd.com. It describes a belief that people are either male or female, and does not allow any gender variance in between the binaries. The truth is, there are many CDers who fit somewhere in between the two binaries. They are not TS (they do not feel they were born in the wrong body), but they also don't always quite click with their male peers and they certainly wish to present as women even if it is only on occasion.

Reine and others,

I feel very compelled by this quote, I identify with it completely. It is too bad that we need as a society to define what just is. If one was allowed to experience and show themselves as a repectful and considerate person such narrow definitions would be part of our antiquity. I will not live so long as to witness this, (although I wish I would), but I absolutely believe that this will happen one day. Radical change is disorderly, but the evolution of thought is long term. I have faith and feel that those who come after, will live in a new day. Anyhow, ::smiles:: I thought the sixties was about no dress codes: I suppose we haven't arrived yet.

Peace and love to all,
Believe, the world will change,
No stopping it.
Be patient.

Love,
Alyla

[*Vanessa*]

...

I love this idea, gender as non-bipolar, especially as a bi-gender or two-spirited person as this speaks to the path I am already trying to pursue. We spend to much time trying to fit into our current bipolar gender system and trying to normalize persons. It would put the decision of one's gender back to the person. Let them express who they are and wear what feels comfortable for them.

Religious dogma might stop this from ever coming true... but I can only dream life could someday be fair. For now the best I can hope for is education and tolerance so more persons can feel free to be themselves.

Another way to refer to this is a 'gender binary'. You might have read this term several times at cd.com. It describes a belief that people are either male or female, and does not allow any gender variance in between the binaries. The truth is, there are many CDers who fit somewhere in between the two binaries. They are not TS (they do not feel they were born in the wrong body), but they also don't always quite click with their male peers and they certainly wish to present as women even if it is only on occasion.

I as many believe that when the term eliminates any reference to a single meaning a better term will prevail. Binary anything is 'this or that', Transgender is in itself more fluid. GLBT/medical/human rights/law makers at best are addressing this definition. How an individual interprets each word is meaningless. At the beginning of each 'contract / legal rit' there is a definition of terms to solve any confusion that may transpire during execution of the said document for any reason. The old Prof in T.O. is working towards this idea and personally I wish we all could do likewise.

Edit: I tip my 'bonnet' to the few that are working so very hard here to achieve this end and are enhancing their own initiatives

[sanderlay]

That's true!

But there will never be a way to measure the percentage of people who would wish to remain either male or female, and those who would naturally fall in the middle. I think there are enough resources online now and certainly enough awareness in our society even if it is not outright approval, that if anyone experiences a desire to express a gender different than their assigned gender, they will find a way to do something about it, or certainly join forums to talk about it.

And the rest of the gender binaries will continue to go on their merry way, oblivious to it all.

It's fun to dream about your scenario though, but at the same time I think it would be productive to just work on doing what we can to help the mainstream understand about gender variance. The community needs to work together to change the laws, advocate for gender education in schools, and hopefully more and more people in forums such as this one will feel encouraged to go out dressed which will help to further the awareness that transgenders exist, if even on a small scale.

Your right... It is an incomplete idea at present and it would be like turning the world upside down. More people would object than would be happy and it might just lead to wars over the concept. In fact... given history... and religious dogma... I could almost guarantee it. So...

... your also right again that we should use our time to educate people... help bring tolerance and understanding. It would be more productive.

No, I'm sorry I don't buy into that one. I would still be a woman betrayed by a body which has the wrong configuration and the wrong sex organs and which was constantly being poisoned by testosterone (since you don't like the phrase "trapped in a man's body I had to find another way of explaining the same concept). My mind knew that before I ever learnt about "gender roles".

As I said before - all mention of bipolar disorder apart - I understand about gender not being binary, but I don't buy into it being non-existent. For those of us who are TS - whether MtF like me or FtM - it has nothing to do with the clothing and everything to do with our gender identity being at odds with our body.

That's OK... It was just an out of the box idea. I did not mean to deny you or you struggle. I deny NO ONE their own path in order to show mine. It is yours and your alone. I can not hope to understand fully the turmoil this has caused you in your life. Can any one?

But please don't miss quote me here. I don't dis-like the phrase "trapped in a man's body" This is part of a quote from The Transgendered Philosopher... by Michael ‘Miqqi Alicia’ Gilbert which I quoted.

I as many believe that when the term eliminates any reference to a single meaning a better term will prevail. Binary anything is 'this or that', Transgender is in itself more fluid. GLBT/medical/human rights/law makers at best are addressing this definition. How an individual interprets each word is meaningless. At the beginning of each 'contract / legal rit' there is a definition of terms to solve any confusion that may transpire during execution of the said document for any reason. The old Prof in T.O. is working towards this idea and personally I wish we all could do likewise.

Edit: I tip my 'bonnet' to the few that are working so very hard here to achieve this end and are enhancing their own initiatives

Thank you Vanessa. Working to solve confusion with words and definitions is certainly a noble task. Education about these words and meanings from the past will help us to understand much of the controversy and a way forward. But it will take compromise, tolerance and respect by all concerned to achieve this goal.

Perhaps we can start here... at crossdressers.com.