You know where you can stick it.... buddy.

[Sophie86]

Herein lies the problem.

And if any of these guys come to this forum and read the "do you want to have sex with men when you're dressed" threads, their opinions will be reinforced.

You don't mean that, because some CDs imagine they might enjoy sex with a male, that means they deserve to be crudely propositioned when they go out to a club en femme, do you?

[ReineD]

^ No, not at all.

I'm saying that if admirers spend any time reading the fantasy threads here and in other places online, they will continue assuming "this is what all your types are looking for, isn't it?", as quoted.

Or, maybe the admirers get that impression because there are a lot of CDs in tranny bars who are happy to oblige? I don't know about this since I don't hang out in such places, but I do read many threads here.

[DonniDarkness]

fantasy threads here and in other places online, they will continue assuming "this is what all your types are looking for, isn't it?",

Reine is right here. How many sites do you think there are out there who cater to people with TG fantasies? She is just stating the obvious.

Second, i know im going to catch hell for this but im going to outright say it. As jerkish as this guy was about his approach, at least he was honest and straightforward. Then after the op declined, he left her alone. Thast makes him a predator? or just a jerk whos not afraid to just say what he wants? Was it appropriate?.....absolutely not.

Some of the fantasy stories ive read are just about exactly the same....except they end a little differently.

-Donni-

[Sophie86]

^ No, not at all.

I'm saying that if admirers spend any time reading the fantasy threads here and in other places online, they will continue assuming "this is what all your types are looking for, isn't it?", as quoted.

Only if they're ignoring all the other threads in which the hetero CDs are saying, "No way, NE-VER!"

We're a diverse bunch.

Or, maybe the admirers get that impression because there are a lot of CDs in tranny bars who are happy to oblige? I don't know about this since I don't hang out in such places, but I do read many threads here.

I wouldn't know either. I've never picked anyone up, or been picked up, whether en femme or in drab. I don't have any first hand knowledge about goes on, and my second hand knowledge is about male/female hookups.

Reine is right here. How many sites do you think there are out there who cater to people with TG fantasies? She is just stating the obvious.

There are sites out there that cater to male/female fantasies too, but you wouldn't say that a guy is correct to make such assumptions about women.

Second, i know im going to catch hell for this but im going to outright say it. As jerkish as this guy was about his approach, at least he was honest and straightforward. Then after the op declined, he left her alone. Thast makes him a predator? or just a jerk whos not afraid to just say what he wants?

No, I agree. He was a man on a mission, and he was very straightforward in stating what he wanted. I actually have a problem with the OP's "non-committal" responses. The guy was on a schedule, and she was wasting valuable time. Just tell him 'no', and let him move on.

Although I've never had to fend off such a pass myself, I've dealt with a lot of phone solicitors, and it's kind of the same thing. You have to make your 'no' emphatic, or they will just keep trying to make the sale. All that does is waste your time, and theirs.

Was it appropriate?.....absolutely not.

And I guess that depends on your view of what ought to go on in clubs. Those who use them as a meat market will see the OP's response as something like: "OMG! I went to a car dealership, and the salesman just up and asked me if I wanted to buy a CAR!" Those who want to be able to hang out in the club, listen to music, dance, and socialize without being asked to perform sex acts on someone will definitely view such behavior as inappropriate.

[Stephanie47]

Frankly there are many guys and dolls on the prowl who do not want to waste time "courting" their hookup. They want to get to the chase right away rather than spend $$$ and come up with nothing for their efforts. And, if you think you do not get crude remarks elsewhere, you haven't ridden the New York City subway. I was totally in guy mode and not even a practicing cross dresser yet, and, some guy offered to suck my @#$% (fill in the blank). And, as an older guy you definitely encounter "mature" women trolling the vegetable aisle in the supermarkets.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

this forum is not a good cross section of crossdressers.
there is alot of sex and hookups in the crossdressing community, and the people having the sex are not your average crossdressers.com forum poster..
there are many message boards and forums that are sex related and very highly populated..

as i traveled from the closet to the mall to the bars to the events, i was hit on primarily by crossdressers...

if you are straight and uninterested in any kind of sexuality when dressed..i bet you never go to those bars anyway....

there is a bottom line...it is not fair...but if you go to a bar dressed and alone, the assumption is you want something....and if you have a male hook up fantasy, and its only a fantasy,
a bar is the absolute LAST place you want to be alone and chatting with any guy...

i can't say this with certainty, but isn't it the same for gg's as well???

[ReineD]

Sophie, do you know what's out there? This site and a few other CD boards are islands in a sea of hook-up sites for CDs & men.

I can't post a link due to content, but when you google "crossdresser porn", you are served 7 million results with pics galore of TGs doing you know what with men and with each other ... not with GGs.

That's not mentioning the thousands of over 18 Yahoo chat rooms for CDs/TSs & admirers where they organize live meetups and parties, plus thousands of other chat rooms including the one associated with cd.com. You should join one or two. You will not find GGs hanging out there, and believe me, your eyes will be opened.

And it didn't take me long at all to find these dating sites. I guarantee you the purpose isn't to meet GGs (except maybe URNA where some CDs do try to meet GGs, although there are plenty more who are there for men).

http://www.dateacrossdresser.com/

http://tgdate.org/trialOpen_0.htm

http://transgenderdate.com/index.php

http://www.transpassions.com/

http://transgendered-personals.com/

http://www.tsgirlfriend.com/

http://urnotalone.com/

Not to mention the Craig's List "t" categories: t4m, m4t, t4mw, mw4t. Funny they don't have any t4w.

The statistics say the majority of Crossdressers are hetero. But, I'm afraid the hetero (?), FAITHFUL, married CDs aren't the visible ones, when you go out there and see what's available.

So, I really do understand why admirers think "this is what all your types are looking for, isn't it?", as quoted above. They're online and in tranny bars too.

[DonniDarkness]

There are sites out there that cater to male/female fantasies too, but you wouldn't say that a guy is correct to make such assumptions about women.

No. Inappropriate is Inappropriate. Fantasies are not reality, some have a hard time discerning one from the other. However this guy obviously had a fantasy about sex with a crossdresser. Some crossdressers do like men, he didnt know the OP wasnt interested.

Besides we wouldnt want to assume that ALL women have male/female fantasies exclusively.....and truth be told there is only one way to find out...ASK

that depends on your view of what ought to go on in clubs.

Doesnt matter, appropriate is appropriate. He could have still propositioned the op and not been a crude and tasteless conversation. "Hi, i think your attractive. Are you interested in any company this evening?.....No? Well, can i buy you a drink instead?....."

Still very straight forward and to the point.

But your right if your going to the clubs alone your going to get hit on. Ive been hit on in guy mode while out clubbing with my wife.... butt grabbers, inappropriate propositions, comments, ive even been goosed..... it happens(<--Tall thin femmy guy with tattoos)....but you have to remeber your in a place that single people do go to to hook up. I agree that the op shouldnt be shocked to get hit on, only the manner in which it was presented should have been shocking.

-Donni-

[ReineD]

When my SO and I were first dating, we went to a tranny/gay bar in the next town over. My SO had never been there before. We were sitting at the bar, when someone brought a napkin with a message on it, placed it between the two of us, and pointed to some creepy looking guy sitting behind us. I opened up the napkin, full of curiosity *naive me*, and it was a proposition. Not for us, but for my SO!

Imagine my surprise ... I had never even been to a gay bar before, and so the concept that someone would proposition my SO *while I'm right there sitting next to her* was an eye opener for me.

Another time we were at our local gay bar, and some dude had eyes only for my SO and they spent a long time talking together. I kinda felt like an outsider until I forced myself into the conversation, and then I discovered that I had actually heard of this guy from a female friend of mine. He had not treated her well at all.

My SO never wanted to go back to the first place again, although we have gone back to the local bar for the drag shows. There was one of those Yahoo group T-girl parties she wanted to go to in a different town though, to see what it was about, but she changed her mind. I'm glad she did. I think that something in our relationship would had changed if she had gone. A part of me would have closed off from her.

[Sophie86]

The statistics say the majority of Crossdressers are hetero. But, I'm afraid the hetero (?), FAITHFUL, married CDs aren't the visible ones, when you go out there and see what's available.

So, I really do understand why admirers think "this is what all your types are looking for, isn't it?", as quoted above. They're online and in tranny bars too.

I don't understand what your point is, unless you're suggesting that more hetero, faithfully married crossdressers should come out of the closet in order to counteract the negative stereotype created by internet porn.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I don't understand what your point is, unless you're suggesting that more hetero, faithfully married crossdressers should come out of the closet in order to counteract the negative stereotype created by internet porn.

Well what is your point?
You brought up the idea that reine said the op "deserved" it....and people are demonstRating that it's a reality of the bar scene...and if a heterosexual cross dresser wants to enjoy dressing at a bar, it's a tough situation....and the reason is that lots of cd's go to the bars for just that...

[ReineD]

I don't understand what your point is, unless you're suggesting that more hetero, faithfully married crossdressers should come out of the closet in order to counteract the negative stereotype created by internet porn.

Thanks, Kaitlin.

My point? It is what it is. It's not just the porn, it's the behaviors of all the CDs who are in it for the sex. I didn't make these people up, they're out there in droves (see my prior post), and this is why obnoxious guys in bars believe, "This is what all your types are looking for, isn't it." In other words, this guy's expectations are understandable, given what he knows based on the internet and the parties or bars he likely goes to.

What will change this? You tell me.

But if someone doesn't want to get hit on, they should go to places where admirers aren't looking for Tgirls. Or, they should develop firm ways of establishing boundaries.

EDIT

We had a thread, I think in Loved Ones, from a GG who was upset that her bf's femme profile kept getting hit on on facebook by the same type that was in the OP's bar. Ask any CD who has a public profile and they'll tell you how many guys proposition them, assuming they're in it for the sex. The only way to stop this is to keep the profiles private and only accept friend requests from people you know. But, there are many CDs who are in it for the sex, who do like getting hit on, and so these admirers will continue to think "this is what all your types are looking for, isn't it."

[Anita Luken]

Hi Jamsey, You look great in your picture. Sounds like the Cardinal bar where you had trouble with the Perv.. I have been there several times and felt welcome. So sorry he ruined your day. Maybe we will run into each other there sometime. Would love to talk. Anita

[Sophie86]

Thanks, Kaitlin.

My point? It is what it is. It's not just the porn, it's the behaviors of all the CDs who are in it for the sex. I didn't make these people up, they're out there in droves (see my prior post), and this is why obnoxious guys in bars believe, "This is what all your types are looking for, isn't it." In other words, this guy's expectations are understandable, given what he knows based on the internet and the parties or bars he likely goes to.

Everything you've said here could be said about women. Women work in the porn industry. Women post seductive pictures on their FB profiles, and collect admirers. Women go out to bars dressed in trashy ways, and let guys pick them up for one night stands.

So the next time you're in a bar, and some jerk asks you if you want to suck his #@$%, don't be shocked. It's just a situation "you women" have created.

But if someone doesn't want to get hit on, they should go to places where admirers aren't looking for Tgirls. Or, they should develop firm ways of establishing boundaries.

You give your female friends the same advice, right?

Ask any CD who has a public profile and they'll tell you how many guys proposition them, assuming they're in it for the sex.

I don't have to ask, I have a Facebook profile. I have exactly two non-CD male friends on it, neither of which have ever hit on me. I don't get swarms of friend requests from non-CD males, but the ones I do get, I've learned to ignore.

[ReineD]

If you're thinking that I'm accusing all CDs of being in it for sex, I'm not. Just a large chunk. This isn't a fetish or a dating site, but it doesn't mean that fetish CDs don't exist.

There may have been a time when men assumed that all GGs were "loose", and a woman in a bar warranted crude behavior. I guess there was a time when there were two separate doors to the bars, one for "gents", and one for "ladies & gents". Nice women didn't go in unaccompanied. Actually, it hasn't been that long since rape attitudes have changed, to dismiss the idea that if a woman was raped it was because she "asked" for it. Women have come a long way since the days when we were seen as objects.

Unfortunately, this is not the case for CDers. By and large, many people in our society, especially the admirers, believe the majority of the CDers are in it for the sex. And the truth is, it appears as if there is a higher percentage of the total CDs who are in it for the sex than are women who do the same. See all the resources in my prior post ... the chat rooms, the meet-up sites, the porn, even some of the threads here, etc.

Do some women do these things? Yes, there are women in the porn industry, which is predominately geared to men. Are women into porn? I'm no expert, but I'm guessing that women like to watch porn with their bfs. Do women look for sex with other women as much as CDs look for sex with men? If they do, they're certainly a lot more quiet about it.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

we aren't talking about women...we are talking about cd's
we arent' talking about a person's right to sit alone at a bar with out being propositioned, we are talking about what happened and why you should expect that its gonna happen..

i never said that i condone a guy walking up to you and talking dirty talk...i said it happens.....the OP's story was a good description of something that happened...i'm sorry that happened ...if she goes again, there is a good chance it will happen again...

i said that cd's sitting alone at a bar have a target on them...that lots of cd's want to be targets, that there is nothing wrong with that..and that hetero cd's that want to hang out at bars need to deal with it...it is what it is.

btw women do not generally go to bars alone...let alone hang out all night on a bar stool by themselves...

[Sophie86]

There may have been a time when men assumed that all GGs were "loose", and a woman in a bar warranted crude behavior.

Well, I'm glad those days are behind us.

I still have a mental image of a girl I saw once on the dance floor of a bar. She was "dancing" with two guys, by which I mean she was simulating sex with them. I don't mean that she was rubbing up against them suggestively, I mean they were acting out a very popular threesome position complete with hip thrusts and head bobs.

But not all women go to bars for the sex. Just a large chunk.

[ReineD]

Well, on the lighter side, my SO and I went to a drag show and during the intermission, 6 younger women got up on stage and mimicked lesbian sexual positions in their dancing. They were also clothed rather suggestively, and they had every eye on the place riveted on them, which was their sole reason for doing this. LOL. My mother would have been *shocked* to see this.

And I know a few of these women. They are straighter than door nails. But, they also know that guys think it is incredibly sexy to see two women being sexual together.

The times' they are a changin', with all the grinding, bumping, and suggestive wear among the younger crowd, compared to even a decade ago. But, this is all show.

Sophie if you want to believe that CDs aren't after sex any more than women, then I think you just aren't opening your eyes.

[Sophie86]

Sophie if you want to believe that CDs aren't after sex any more than women, then I think you just aren't opening your eyes.

What I believe, Reine, is that if a female friend related a similar story to you, you would have reacted with shock at the man's behavior. You would have said that it was really wrong of him to say such a thing to her. You would not have suggested that the way young women currently behave makes the man's behavior "understandable".

I honestly didn't know you had such a negative view of crossdressers.

[ReineD]

What I believe, Reine, is that if a female friend related a similar story to you, you would have reacted with shock at the man's behavior. You would have said that it was really wrong of him to say such a thing to her. You would not have suggested that the way young women currently behave makes the man's behavior "understandable".

I honestly didn't know you had such a negative view of crossdressers.

Well, actually, I would have said, "just ignore him, he's a jerk".

I also would have asked her to tell me what preceded this. What was she wearing, did she engage him in conversation that would make most men feel as if she might be interested. Believe it or not, a lot of men have huge egos and things are pretty black and white for them. Wise women learn to judge character and nip it in the bud when they see it coming. In other words, we know there is not "just a little bit of fun flirting" with the jerks. It's all or nothing for them, and so we don't encourage any of it.

Also, I know that women aren't responsible for the world's jerks, and it is true that when we get treated poorly by men it's not because we "asked for it", but still, there are things we can do to minimize our risks.

By this I mean there was a story of a young college student who was gang raped. Yes, each and every one of those boys needed to be kicked out of school and suffer the full strength of legal ramifications for what they did. But, it turns out the young girl in question got severely drunk at a frat party and she was wearing suggestive clothing. She would have avoided herself a lot of pain had she been wiser about her surroundings, her behavior, and her choice of clothing. It's true that she shouldn't be penalized for her naivete, but honestly, what was she thinking, being alone, drunk, and scantily clad at a frat party? It's not a position I would ever put myself in.

[eluuzion]

What I believe, Reine, is that if a female friend related a similar story to you, you would have reacted with shock at the man's behavior. You would have said that it was really wrong of him to say such a thing to her. You would not have suggested that the way young women currently behave makes the man's behavior "understandable".

I honestly didn't know you had such a negative view of crossdressers.

I did not interpret Reine’s comments as voicing any personal views about Cders. I interpreted her posts as just stating the obvious, based upon supported evidence. I believe it was meant as an objective presentation of reality, (which I happen to agree with) not a subjective personal perspective on her part (as you have implied). I have certainly not read anything RD has posted on the forum that ever suggested to me that she has a negative opinion of Crossdressers in general. I have found the opposite to be the case.

Your last statement is a personal perspective and subjective opinion leveled at RD that I do not happen to share.

Nothing personal intended here. You are certainly entitled to voice your opinion and I respect that. But sometimes I feel compelled to do the same. This is one of those times…where we can just agree to disagree without being disagreeable, eh?

[sara.s]

Reine is correct in the sense that public perception of CDers is mostly associated with Craigslist, gay bars, crossdresser dating sites etc so it is quite natural for a third person to wrongly assume a TS/CD (who is out dressed) to be gay and in it for sex.

[skirtsuit]

In my experience, there are really, really creepy idiotic men everywhere but they are fortunately uncommon. There is a small subset of men who are simply complete jerks during the day & night. I only go out during the day and every once in while some a$$hole will stop in his tracks and pivot and maybe pull his sunglasses down or some such thing, which makes me want to kick him in the 'nads but I'm a proper lady so I just smile and walk past. I think the best response to such people is to ignore them or do as a pretty woman might do and try to make them feel as small and stoopid as possible.

Best,
SS

[Nicole Erin]

that guy probably had a tiny wingily wang anyways.
Male reproductive organ is called a "penis" but some guys like the creeps have an "inadequacy".

[docrobbysherry]

Ok, maybe it's time to get back to Jamsey's thread!?

I think u handle yourself beautifully, Jamsey! I wish I had your confidence to be out at clubs dressed, alone!