Bisexuality & Crossdressing

[Acastina]

To Sammy777: No. 1. I don't think transgenders who look like porn star ******** are any more rare "in the wild" than genetic girl pornstars with breast implants, liposuction waists, brazilian buttlift glutes, and ten thousand dollars of dental caps and whitening, if you compare the ratio of ******** to ordinary crossdressers, and Pornstar genetic girls to ordinary girls, I suspect the ratios aren't all that different. No. 2. I personally know two transgenders who have had implants and some other cosmetic surgery, and who are not involved in the porn industry. No. 3. Not all transgender porn stars are surgically enhanced ********. There are very many who happen to be lean, flat chested individuals with wigs or long natural hair, makeup, and hairless bodies, and the porn in which they are involved looks just as much like male/female sex as the stuff involving enhanced ********. No. 4. What happens to the ******** when they get old and heavy in your universe? I don't know if it's still true, but it used to be said that many of the stars of ******* porn only worked in the industry long enough to pay for their surgeries, and then they left it to pursue private life, or in your parlance, "in the wild."

Excellent points all.

[kelsey52]

Oh boy this thread has really got deep, if you want to try a guy then just do it, if you dont like it then stop, if your bi great, if not great. If you are really curious then try it if you can or it will haunt you forever am I or am I not humm. I have told my wife I had been with guys before we were married and well Iam still here got it out of the way and prepared to move on if she did not like it. I will tell you this, sometimes so goes nuts during our time in the bed room and when its her time to play the man.She gets into that horny angry guy mode and pounds me like a street walker. " NOW YOU KNOW HOW IT FEEL, TAKE LIKE A MAN, STOP COMPLANING". I love her so much.

[Robyn7778]

It's a shame no one here ever takes time to consider this issue. ;-) But seriously, I have devoted a good amount of time in my life considering my sexuality and its evolution. I started my life straight. I had no feelings for a man whatsoever. And if I had, I'm certain I would have been scared straight by the ridicule heaped on kids that show even a hint of being "gay." It was the ultimate insult growing up! Then I went to a college with a very high gay population. And I learned that there is nothing wrong with a person who identifies as gay and they certainly pose no threat to me whatsoever. Still, I was straight. I moved back to NYC and began a career in a creative industry. I have worked with and become friends with some incredibly talented and wonderful people in the LGBT community. In my late 20's I discovered an infatuation with crossdressing at first an admirer and eventually crossdressing myself, which led me to consider whether this made me "bi-curious." I've dressed part time, on of for a number of years now. I love it. It's exhilarating and liberating. And when I do, I do feel the desire to be treated like a woman by a man. And I have acted on it. So, I have come to terms with the fact that I am out and out bi-sexual. I enjoy relations with men and women equally, depending on the person and the situation. So in the end, I guess what I am is sexual. In the end, it matters little what others think or how others label you. It matters only how you feel about yourself.

[Acastina]

It's a shame no one here ever takes time to consider this issue. ;-) But seriously, I have devoted a good amount of time in my life considering my sexuality and its evolution. ...
I've dressed part time, on of for a number of years now. I love it. It's exhilarating and liberating. And when I do, I do feel the desire to be treated like a woman by a man. And I have acted on it. So, I have come to terms with the fact that I am out and out bi-sexual. I enjoy relations with men and women equally, depending on the person and the situation. So in the end, I guess what I am is sexual. In the end, it matters little what others think or how others label you. It matters only how you feel about yourself.

You hit the key word in your second-to-last sentence: label. That's what most of this long, interesting thread has been about. Some begin with anatomy and draw simplistic conclusions from that alone. Others begin with brain gender and its myriad manifestations, and arrive at different conclusions. Your experience is hardly atypical, other than adult-onset CD. Blanchard's TS work implies that bi-CDs have no real interest in their male partners as people and friends, solely and selfishly relating to the penis as if it wasn't connected to a sentient human being. Many of us know that's nonsense, because we've had contrary experience and know that we weren't the only ones. Viewing it as a type of multiple-personality disorder ignores the severe clinical definition of that condition, as well as the fact that we're perfectly conscious of our male manifestations while working the other side of the aisle. Saying that all male-male contact is homosexual, and that's it, disregards the striking similarities between straight porn (the only chance most of us have to observe sexuality fully expressed by others) and TS/TG/CD porn, and the dissimilarities between those genres and gay porn. Overlap, yes, but dissimilar.

Like you, I know, like, admire, and enjoy a number of gay people, but, much as I may love some of them, I also know that that's not who I am. I certainly could have explored being gay, but I was never the least motivated in boy mode to go down that road. In girl mode, it's been, "Why not", and acting on it came naturally. That's the difference. It's not that we're gay-but-in-denial-and-dressing-up-makes-it-OK. It's that what we are is something different from gay man. Labels again...

[ReineD]

Ok can someone answer this for me. If a CD enjoys the feeling of being made to feel like a woman and has a man do that for her, but she is not really attracted or turned on to the man in a sexual way that is Autogynophilia. Is there any issue with that if the man is ok with it? Is that bisexual? She is attracted to the feeling of being made a woman.

If she's into if for the fantasy, and he's OK with that because he's into it for the sex and his own fantasy, then it's not hetero sex. They both know they are two males who are having sex. Is she bisexual? Bisexuality is defined as follows: physical or romantic attraction to both men and women. If she's not attracted to him when she's in guy mode, and her arousal in femme mode stems from the thought of herself as a woman vs. an attraction to him, then in my opinion and according to our current understanding of bisexuality, she is not. Is he bisexual? That all depends on whether or not he is also attracted to women. If he is not, then it is my opinion that he is gay.

Blanchard's TS work implies that bi-CDs have no real interest in their male partners as people and friends, solely and selfishly relating to the penis as if it wasn't connected to a sentient human being. Many of us know that's nonsense, because we've had contrary experience and know that we weren't the only ones.

I agree, there are bi CDs for whom sex with a man is not related to AGP. But there are others for whom it is.

Wouldn't the bi CDs also be attracted to men while also in male mode, after a period of coming to terms with it all? And is there a possibility that if the CD is AGP, then the fantasy serves its purpose until the act is consummated, at which point the experience becomes a turn-off?

We've had thread after thread of members who say they are attracted to men while dressed. But most don't say whether they've physically acted on it. A few have said they had and realized that sex with another man wasn't for them. A few others have said they enjoyed it but they also acknowledge they are either gay or bi.

Like you, I know, like, admire, and enjoy a number of gay people, but, much as I may love some of them, I also know that that's not who I am. I certainly could have explored being gay, but I was never the least motivated in boy mode to go down that road. In girl mode, it's been, "Why not", and acting on it came naturally. That's the difference. It's not that we're gay but in denial and dressing up makes it OK. It's that what we are is something different from gay man. Labels again...

Yes, ... labels. We just don't have enough words to describe the myriad variations of gender combined with sexuality that is now coming to the forefront of human knowledge.

[latanya]

ditto me to my feeling is that im hetero both ways when im male im only intereseted in women but i feel that if i want to expereince being female being with other cd/tg or gay guys just wont fulfill that need. i would want the attention of hetero males and be excepted not as a cross dresser but as female. now how far i would go or capable to put my male perceptions aside i dont know!

[Shananigans]

1. I certainly don't consider my dualness to be a multiple-personality manifestation. Far from being "discrete" personas, there is tremendous overlap between one's guy and girl modes. Multiple personality situations are essentially psychotic; the person doesn't realize that the other personas exist while in one. I never forget or disregard my entire life history, preferences, interests, and so forth while exploring and exercising my advanced and manifested feminine side, and I don't think others do, either.

It is true that there is a personality disorder that manifests in different personality types that are unaware of each other...I would call this Dissociative Identity Disorder, but it was called multiple personality disorders. However, there are plenty of personality disorders that involve levels of disassociation that are not DID. In most personality disorders, there is a manifestation in dysfunctional coping behaviors. These disordered coping behaviors may manifest with identity disorders (which, may include gender identity disorder). We like to look at ourselves as whole individuals. So, when someone compartmentalizes themselves into distinct personalities, we would say that this is an abnormal behavior pattern. The causes of these behavior patterns may be due to many factors. But, what we generally would like to see is a patient that begins to view themselves as a whole and takes responsibility for their behaviors and actions...instead of compartmentalizing them. Does that make sense? A key thing to remember is that someone with a personality disorder won't see their behavior as maladaptive. Why? Because, he/she has integrated this as part of his/her personality. So, you will see a lot of blame. "People just don't understand me...no one listens...no one cares." This often affects personal relationships. It is affective therapy you can get a patient to see themselves as a whole person, instead of compartmentalizing aspects of their personality that they have evolved defense mechanisms for coping.

It may very well mean that these people have some kind of gender identity disorder, but the way in which they are coping by compartmentalizing is considered maladaptive behaviors by society. And, that may not be considered "fair," but this is how most people view themselves...as one whole individual that is constantly responsible for their behaviors and actions. Therefore, I would say that saying you are bisexual while en femme (or, acquiring other characteristics while only en femme) is an ineffective coping behavior as evidenced by the lack of ownership to the behaviors while "en homme."

2. Dr. Blanchard's autogynephilia theory is just that, a theory, not a proven fact. It is but one way of attempting to describe transgendered behaviors, and the sexual arousal patterns of some TG/CDs in particular. Like all such informed theories, it has substantial conceptual appeal, but exceptions abound, which certainly calls into question both its validity and its general applicability. IMHO, quoting at length from 20-year-old clinical writings adds little to this conversation. Blanchard's theory has plenty of critics, and AGP doesn't really address bisexuality (the topic here) in any meaningful way. My personal take on AGP, dating back to its first entry into TG science, is questioning whether it states a causal relationship to TG/CD sexual-arousal patterns or simply compiles and describes behaviors. In other words, is AGP a pathology that distorts TG/CD sexuality from some kind of posited "normal", or is it merely a conceptual description of common TG/CD sexual behaviors? If the latter, it's useful as a tool for understanding and comparing; if the former, welcome to a debate that has raged out in the open for decades without reaching a consensus. As a way of explaining the causes of TG behaviors, it's inadequate psychobabble compared to real possibilities like brain-wiring anomalies in utero, many of which have been verified in lab-rat experiments that tinker with prenatal hormone doses to produce male rats with female sexual behaviors and vice-versa. I place it somewhere above Freud's classic, discredited strong-mother/weak-father nurture theories but below real, verifiable agents of causation, whatever they may someday be found to be.

Blanchard is often brought up on this site, and I had this feeling that no one actually had READ the paper. So, I saw it as a relevant read if we were going to continue to discuss it. I also would not call it a "theory." Gravity is a theory. I'd call it more of a hypothesis that psychologists today are still debating as possibly very relevant to TG issues. This is why it's still mentioned in scientific literature and being tested 20 years later. Focus has now turned to the female version of the phenomenon and there are overwhelming scientific papers available to you on this subject.

3. Viewing male-male sex as homosexual by definition flies in the face of the experiences of many TG folk. Male/female is anatomy; man/woman is a social construct of expectations and behaviors. I don't know how anyone with an open mind could watch gay porn and ******* porn without noticing the difference and realizing that the TG "women" in the latter may be anatomically male but appear to approach sex from a female perspective, albeit with all kinds of variations that are more of commercial value to the industry than they are indicative of typical TG sexuality (e.g., BDSM, ******* topping male, and so forth). ******* porn looks a lot more like straight porn than it does like gay porn, and it's not just the clothes. As Shannon's intolerant gay friend said, he doesn't like "men" acting like "women"; he wants a man, and that's homosexual. Male with TG/CD male is something different.

I can't even comment on "*******" behavior because I don't watch this porn.

[jaglover]

This extraordinary thread is somewhat over my head - especially since I don't understand quite all the abbreviations. It does make me feel like a very dull old Hector indeed. If and when I get my chance to go out in the world en femme I'd love for people to mistake me for a woman - but any kind of 'attention' from an actual man would put me off big-time and I'd probably run (well, totter) straight back to the closet. To the extent that I fantasise about sexual situations in the CD department, I dream of being with a girl who for some strange reason gets turned on by being with a man who likes to dress as a woman.

[whowhatwhen]

well I love being as fem as possible and I love being a woman with a man

Care to explain that a bit further?

Maybe not, but you can pick at my brain if you'd like but it might be a bit different.

It kind of makes sense, at least for me, CD would be to get as far away from my male self as I can.
As confusing as that sounds, they are not seperate entities but more a set of rules based in denial, fear, ect.. of what I'm allowed to do.

It's likely that I'd have no problem boning with guys as a guy, but even if I come to accept that; I'd still like to be with a guy
while being as close to female as superficially possible. Why? I don't know.
Clothing isn't the license here, it's however I feel inside at the time.

For example, I still have a long way to go in terms of work on my body and gaining enough to CD properly but I can still feel jealous of girls
being intimate with guys. Around that state men become more physically attractive which, possible due to denial, is so much more rare every other time.

I can't watch gay xxx either unless there is a woman involved, even in the room doing nothing, because most of the time male features are
harder to hit a note with me. Harder, but not impossible as there have been some guys where I think daaaaaaaamn.....

I don't mind explaining anything further, who knows, maybe it'll help me understand myself more.

[StarrOfDelite]

It's a shame no one here ever takes time to consider this issue. ;-) But seriously, I have devoted a good amount of time in my life considering my sexuality and its evolution. I started my life straight. I had no feelings for a man whatsoever. And if I had, I'm certain I would have been scared straight by the ridicule heaped on kids that show even a hint of being "gay." It was the ultimate insult growing up! Then I went to a college with a very high gay population. And I learned that there is nothing wrong with a person who identifies as gay and they certainly pose no threat to me whatsoever. Still, I was straight. I moved back to NYC and began a career in a creative industry. I have worked with and become friends with some incredibly talented and wonderful people in the LGBT community. In my late 20's I discovered an infatuation with crossdressing at first an admirer and eventually crossdressing myself, which led me to consider whether this made me "bi-curious." I've dressed part time, on of for a number of years now. I love it. It's exhilarating and liberating. And when I do, I do feel the desire to be treated like a woman by a man. And I have acted on it. So, I have come to terms with the fact that I am out and out bi-sexual. I enjoy relations with men and women equally, depending on the person and the situation. So in the end, I guess what I am is sexual. In the end, it matters little what others think or how others label you. It matters only how you feel about yourself.

Had to say that I was really interested in your story about how you transitioned from straight male to bi-sexual crossdressers, because it is very similar to my personal history. I was in my mid 40's when the light came on for me and I began the journey, and I must admit I'm envious you had more of your life ahead when it happened for you.

[laura.lapinski]

I think I am the same. I think, if I was single and had the opportunity, I would date a guy if I was dressed as a girl, or I would date another CD/Trans if I am dressed as a guy (or girl), and I would date women if I am dressed as a guy. Don't ask me why, but I don't think I could do anything with a guy if I am dressed as a guy. So far, I've only been with women, but these are my thoughts and fantasies. Call me Bi, I won't get mad. .

Laura

[Davena Doll]

For me, I wanted to have sex with a guy, so I got all dolled up a wig hells the works................it was fun.

[Sophie_C]

I don't believe I have posted this before, but I seriously suggest reading this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Billion-Wicked.../dp/0525952098

It's relatively new and basically taking Kinsey to the next level, and is beginning to be referenced to, as fact.

And, it is based on an academic study of sexuality in relationship to neuropsychology, which has not yet been done before. It explains EVERYTHING we're talking about here, in terms of key points, internal body maps, and various other things which can be described as essentially systems that exist in our minds.

It is too much to explain here, but if you're hesitant to buy an e-book, this Google Talk covers it on a high level:



I don't generally promote something as being "pretty much right" but this is really good and goes along with what I thought all along (but is much more thorough). In comparison, Blanchard's work is like inventing the wheel versus creating a Ferrari.

Watch or read it if you like.

[Robyn7778]

For the record, because I'm not sure if it was clear from my initial reply based on some of the very thoughtful and appreciated responses here as well as messages to me too, I have been, selectively, with guys when in boy mode - not just when en femme. Though, the incidence is higher when in girl mode. Make what you will of that, I've simply come to accept it. It's about facing your self-doubts and not letting labels dictate what makes you happy.

[Josie M]

Hi Paulette. I am as well. I'd say that I am bigender and bisexual at the same time. That is, I'm interested in dating men while en femme and women while en homme. I don't know if there are many bisexual crossdressers, but we are here and there. I certainly accept you and I think the ladies here are very supportive of all the diversity that the forum has to offer. Thank you for speaking out! - Julie

Getting in this very late I realize, but I've heard of the above referred to as "Hetero-Gender"

[Donniesr]

I would say that you are one of the few NORMAL ones here. Most of us are bi sexual or bi curious in one way or another. That is society's say so.. We are all born naked, so I doubt that God cares much what clothes we wear.
Just be who and what you want to be, and never mind the rest.

[lost alice]

i know I'm very laid to the conversation and i do admit that no matter how much i would love to dress up more i will say I'm am bi and i think it helps in making me want to be beautiful for some one I'm with be it friends or date

[seanmuscle]

A man and a CD can have very successful and rewarding relationships. To me if you look, act and present yourself as a girl then you are a girl.

[cindi cinnamon]

To answer the original poster: NO, you're not an "oddball" here. I also am bisexual, with a strong predisposition to be in "intimate" touch with my feminine side. My sexual experiences started very early, and they were ALL with boys. I wasn't intimate with a female until I was 21 years of age, and I enjoyed it thoroughly. I've been married now for 36 years and wouldn't change that for anything. I love my wife deeply...... But, I still fantasize about being with the "Right Guy". I've actually acted out on the "URGE" a few times while I've been married (with the full knowledge, understanding and consent of my wife)..... I'm a lucky guy !!!! I just remember to be careful.... VERY, VERY, CAREFUL, INDEED..... I don't want to bring anything home that would cause harm to the love of my life.

[Leeiah]

never been with a guy, but I am pretty sure I am bi. When i am dressed I seem to attract nothing but striaght men who are fascinated in the ideal of a CD apparently they say they aren't gay and being attracted to me is normal etc. Then they beg to do stuff with me, it leaves me feeling confused but I think they are expecting me to pounce on them so to speak which I never do. Never enjoyed the thought of turning anyone to something else and I know if I did do it with them and rock there world, they would be different from that point on..

But everytime I am dressed, I do crave a man.

[Daliah]

I considered myself straight. I am not attracted to men at all. However, I am attracted to many CDs including some who post here (sorry I am not naming names). I am in closet but given a chance I would love to hang out with other CDs and even engaging sexually. Does that make me bi-curious? Whatever I am I can accept myself for who I am.

Daliah

[StacyCanada]

This is a question I myself struggled with for years. All of my first sexual experiences were with women and I enjoyed it thoroughly. However, I did begin to fantasize about both guys and girls about the same time. I just never acted on my feelings towards men. Now, later in life, I have swung both ways. And I have to say I enjoy sex with women much more. Haha. That isn't to say I'm not bi, I quite likely am, but all in all, I find I love women, and sex with guys can be hot.

[drushin703]

The original poster (furpus63) started this post with the innocent admission that he was bi and had wondered whether others, (crossdressers I suspect since
this is a forum for and about crossdressers) were bi as well. I read thru all the posts and can fully understand why a yes or no answer could not and would
not be possible. My answer for you furpus63 is that I am not but with qualifications. I go out every weekend and have never gone out without being hit on by
a man.Some are polite, some aggressive, some kiss me on my neck, all hug me and most try to feel my ass.Even without knowing the sexual status of the men,
whether they are bisexual, straight or homosexual, I know that I, with great intention, try to appeal to their innermost American fantasy; Short skirt or dress,
long pantyhosed legs, big breast forms, long wig, tall heels, perfumed, talkative, standing with my legs apart. I get a thrill out of the female display and a
greater thrill out of the attention it brings.But I have never NEVER acted on their advances, never called their numbers, never sat in their cars with them,
and never gave them my correct phone number.I often wonder how I would feel if I ever took it seriously. I dont know how I would act or feel in the morning
if I had been with a man that night.

I am a glam queen. My greatest fear is that my mother nor my close male friends, the members of my church, my co-workers, my big-mouthed
neighbor, my friends at the ballroom dance class, or good god my daughter, find out that I am a queen at all.

Bi, pan, straight, heterosexual, homosexual, hetroflexible(?), hetero-gender, otherworldly, triassic, jurassic, cretaceous.....their all just bones
in the ground...dana

[ReineD]

Even without knowing the sexual status of the men, whether they are bisexual, straight or homosexual, I know that I, with great intention, try to appeal to their innermost American fantasy; Short skirt or dress, long pantyhosed legs, big breast forms, long wig, tall heels, perfumed, talkative, standing with my legs apart. I get a thrill out of the female display and a greater thrill out of the attention it brings. But I have never NEVER acted on their advances ...

Side note, but this is what is so perplexing to me, even after all these years in this forum. Why would a CDer who is not into men, dress to attract them as if he was?

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

Side note, but this is what is so perplexing to me, even after all these years in this forum. Why would a CDer who is not into men, dress to attract them as if he was?

It is an interesting mental puzzle, but I think it probably has a lot to do with just the fact that the attention gives a tangible reaction to how one is dressed, so it makes someone feel that they look good and even sexy while en femme. Even I, who usually don't even dress as a woman most of the time, will admit there's some degree of satisfaction from knowing someone, male or female, finds me attractive when I do. I made a brief foray into trying to make a little side money last year by posing for some amateur pin-up photos on a website that had a "crossdressers" section. Posing for sexy pictures in turn made me feel more sexy, and there was definitely some appeal to the idea that others would find them erotic. The idea of being a burlesque dancer or lingerie model still linger in me even though I know it would never work with my body. Reality also breaks through when I remember that the men who find me attractive do so specifically because I'm transgendered and that's what their attraction is based on and not really in responding to my feminine sensuality. It just sparks their fetish.

I don't think it's all that unusual for one to seek out attention like this though, when you think about it. I know plenty of girls, GG girls I mean, who go out for "ladies night out" even when they're in committed relationships and who will get annoyed when their friends will brush guys off with "Sorry, she's taken" type comments because they still like the attention even when they know the won't act on it.