GG's: You don't think we understand? Well, we'd like to....

[Kaitlyn Michele]

You cannot demand acceptance and understanding. You earn it.

[docrobbysherry]

Calm down, Shannon! I can see you're very frustrated at the moment. But, think about it. For the MOST PART, we're men here! And, u know how simple, pig headed, and set in our thinking we r! Well, changing our clothes DOESN'T change that for most of us!

Altho I feel the same way u do about many of the negative posts here, I can at least understand where MOST of the posters r coming from. Because I'm a man, too! Whether or not I agree with them.

However, posts by u, Reine, and other GGs often catch me completely by surpise! I KNOW I don't understand females or how u think! And, I believe most other CDs here r the same. Whether they admit it or not! So, in that context your posts r ALL invaluable here! Because without them we'd be forced to guess or speculate about GG's points of view! And, in MY experience, that means we'd be WRONG most of the time!

So, DON'T let a small minority here discourage u from enlightening the rest of us that need and appreciate your participation! And, in the long run here, you'll learn more about how men think! Whether u like it or not!

[Shananigans]

Quite the contrary, I feel like the OP was addressing some of the posts on this site by GGs who can do nothing more than complain about their CDers. Posts whose air is condescending, critical, and closed-minded. There are plenty of GGs like that out there, and most of them are not even on this site.

I can't speak for the Anonymous GG or any other GG that you might be alluding to, but I can say that many GGs on this site come for support for a reason. Some of things that they are struggling with are not directly the CDing, but things that may be manifestations of CDing behavior. I find some of the struggles deeply disturbing...and, for a few GGs, I am surprised that they can even be part of this site. Their stories aren't on the main forum, but a lot of pain is sometimes transferred over. I do wish that some CDs would understand that though you might be a good person, not every CD is a good person. It's like this for everyone (CD, GG, TS, blah blah). But, when you are a bad person and you are a CD, the CDing gets blamed as the direct cause as to why you are "bad." I understand this. But, what many CDs see is an attack on all CDs with little understanding to say, "Hmm...I think I can read more deeply into why this person is upset...I think I see something here." Instead, it's just that all GGs hate CDs and GTFO of the main forum.

It doesn't leave much reinforcement to try to understand.

And, I know Lexi did not direct this at me personally...but, I did take it to be addressed to GGs and the parts that I quoted basically told me that no GG can get CDs, but a CD is some how more efficiently equipped to understand a GG. I don't understand.

And, I do thank you for recognizing my support...but, there are a ton of GGs on here that are supportive. The ones that are hurting and angry usually have a very good right to be. But, at this rate, these stories will remain to other parts of the forum and between PMs, because there isn't much compassion or understanding in that this anger might come from a very founded place.

I see a lot of anger posted from CDs that their SO just won't accept their CDing...but, I also like to see what is left out of these stories. Most GGs aren't just evil little devils wanting to smash the CD for wearing women's clothes...a lot of the anger is from something much deeper and well-founded. But, the easiest thing to blame is CDing. And, it's not just the SOs that says it's the CDing...it's also the CDs...it's much easier to rest the blame on the CDing instead of getting into the icky details that might make themselves look like a bad person and pretty much not anything like how a woman would behave.

I do agree with Lexi that I wish there was more understanding...but, again, it's a two-way street. As much as she feels CDs aren't understood, I feel that most CDs on this site haven't the foggiest what an SO or a GG may be going through. And, you asked me in the OP to fill you in...well, there you go. Maybe you will understand where some of the GGs anger is coming from...maybe not.

Anyway, I have always enjoyed Lexi's posts, so perhaps I am just reading into a wrong tone...reading these quotes in the wrong way. There's a lot going on with that right now on this forum. I do want to stress though that if you are wanting to understand the GGs on this site, you will have to understand that a lot of the pain goes way beyond a surface level of just the dressing. I can't think of one GG that has written about just the surface level of things being the problem, and I creep on Loved Ones a lot. (lol) But, I see a lot of CDs just attributing it to the surface level things by saying GGs are just jealous of their looks or feel their femininity is threatened. If you (I'm using "you" generally) honestly believe that the level of hurt that most of the GGs go through is just because you look good in a dress...you are either in denial or incredibly stupid. The clothes are just the surface just as the clothes are just the surface for you (Lexi). So, that's what I feel has to be understood about the GGs that are SOs of CDs and why it seems like "they don't get it."

[Dana7]

And, I do thank you for recognizing my support...but, there are a ton of GGs on here that are supportive.

I do recognize that many of the GGs on this site are supportive. I appreciate them too.

Most GGs aren't just evil little devils wanting to smash the CD for wearing women's clothes...a lot of the anger is from something much deeper and well-founded. But, the easiest thing to blame is CDing.

...I do want to stress though that if you are wanting to understand the GGs on this site, you will have to understand that a lot of the pain goes way beyond a surface level of just the dressing. ...So, that's what I feel has to be understood about the GGs that are SOs of CDs and why it seems like "they don't get it."

I agree with you here. The conflicts that surround CDing may be symptomatic of much deeper conflicts in the relationship that have nothing to do with CDing. Please see my post:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...t=#post2677733

[LeaP]

The OP reads well enough if the over-generalized concepts are taken instead as reflecting Lexi's personal views (I'm taking a huge liberty here, Lexi - feel free to correct) AND you take the selective focus on cliched aspects of women's upbringing as merely a prefix to the comment on not wanting to exchange roles. In turn, that can be read as a commentary on the theme of replacing or threatening women's femininity (i.e., by speaking to the unspoken, assumed threat), but I doubt that was the point. This theme or approach was, unfortunately, reinforced by taking a similar tack on the gay friends comment. Still, the rest of the post is taken up by a plea in two parts: 1) I can't help it, 2) please understand and tell me. The plea was the point. Everything else was intended as a lead-in, if unintentionally inflammatory.

Whew.

I can only speak for myself. I can't help dressing. I'm not entirely sure why I have the need, though I'm slowly figuring it out. I have no desire whatsoever to imitate women per se, as in I'm one thing, they are another, and this is a costume affair where I have some measurable "looks like" goal. Something in me, that is a native part of me, belongs in female clothes. And while I want to physically present such that I don't look like a complete buffoon because the world is bicameral when it comes to gender, that isn't the same as imitating. I'm not interested in changing my behavior so much as letting what's in come out. I don't have any thoughts whatsoever of role switching or anything of that ilk.

What I DO need from women as it relates to my TG life, and typically get from my wife, is education on presentation and the related mechanics.

Lea

[Ashley_Marie]

Well, I hate to be kind of an a$$...but, here I go anyway...

While I'm not a GG I think Shananigans post hits the nail on the head. Everyone has questions and is searching for answers. CamilleLeon is one lucky person to have a SO like Shananigans.

[Acastina]

Alexa, that's a helluva post. I can certainly relate to much of what you're putting out there, too. For me, it's not a choice, really. It's more of a compulsion where I am driven to dress and emulate a woman, if only for short periods of time. I go out once in a while, mostly so I can experience what it is like to feel normal in a female mode while out and around people in a normal world situation. And like you mentioned, I may never transition, but I do feel a constant envy of women for the lives they get to lead, even while I understand that there are certainly drawbacks to womanhood as well. Sometimes I see an attractive woman and say to myself, there but for the grace of God go I; there is an example of the life I should have been living. I think you hit upon a lot of points that are spot on for myself, if not for many or most of us.

I have mostly settled these demons. There is no benefit to the constant turmoil. When one is faced with a choice of either transition or not, one must live with the decision. My decision is to remain in the life I have. And because of this, I am now content, for the most part, with the acceptance that I am and will remain a crossdresser, someone who will never be a woman, but will allow himself to emulate one as best as he can for short periods of time. And for the rest of the time, I will try not to dwell upon it all, and be the best man I can for my wife, and for the betterment of my life as a whole.

And through it all, I'll still have an eye for pretty dresses, nice hair, and killer shoes.

I agree that Alexa has hit a lot of big buttons, but so did you. It took me years to realize that the emotions I felt around attractive women were much more envy than lust (gotta keep those deadly sins distinct...), and there is that inner sadness and longing that's just there all the time. I experience no holidays, no vacations, no days off from that complex web of feelings.

Thank you for a fine statement of coming to terms and getting on with one's precious years. More of my song lyrics:

As the hand of fate
Takes the gift of time
There's little we can do
But marvel at the mystery
We often misconstrue...

I wonder if there is a polling option available on this board? A couple of boards I have do have it. A member can create questions for polls to be voted on anonymously by other members. A little off topic, but easier to answer questions, than each of us trying to explain ourselves.

A good idea. A lot of the news and politics threads I read have "thumbs up" or "recommend" response options.

I have to say, though, that I don't quite understand some of the hostile responses to what Alexa laid out in considerable detail. I don't read her as imposing a stereotypical attitude onto ALL women, and certainly not misogynistic, but there is a clear and common female skepticism about CD/TG, that it's a fantasized view of femaleness being a cure to all ills or a magical state of bliss. I first heard this from my dear late mother: "It's not easy being a woman". Well, duh, just look around. Being easier is not really the issue. Being more real, more authentic feeling, regardless of the burdens we might bear living as either gender, is what it is to me.

As for choice vs compulsion, I am of the school of thought (after 35 years of studying the phenomenon) that it's a compulsion caused by fetal brain "wiring". There are simply too many of us, with reasonably similar experiences of it, for it to be a random behavioral choice like political views or favorite sports. Because "choice" implies other, non-compulsive options. Compulsion will trump choice every time, IMHO. How many of you have chosen to purge and be done with it, only to find compulsion in bed with you in the morning?

[suchacutie]

Ok...here I am throwing a wrench in the works as usual: My wife is completely supportive, and I have the highest respect for those here who are supportive and who tell us their take on issues in an attempt to broaden our perspectives. thank you so very much...

BUT

When it comes down to it, the GGs here who question our motives, who question our positions, who question our actions, who can't comprehend some of our statements here, and those who seem completely unsupportive...they are the people from whom we can all learn so very much!!! I want to know what they are thinking. I want them to make me think about the way I act in either gender. I want them to make me rethink my committment to Tina. I want them to ask me to explain how I feel and what I think because in that way I help to clarify my lives!

Why doesn't it bother me if I am accused or seemingly attacked (more about the seemingly later)? The fact is that no one can understand us without detailed communication with us. I want that communication, especially from those SOs who are scared, confused, and/or angry. Being transgendered is not a crime, and helping people understand who we are helps me to understand who I am. Everyone here needs support, and that includes GGs who come here desparately trying to understand how their lives have changed.

And the "seemingly attacked" issue. Words without body language and tonal inflection are easily misinterpreted. There have been a number of posts recently where the initial post was interpreted as a bit of an affront when the OP had not intended that at all. Again, one post is just a few words and are given in a certain context. Change that context and the words can have a completely different meaning. Thus, I try to look upon what might be sharp language as a set of words through a different lense. Again, this is a support group!

After all, the GGs are the ultimate exemplar of who part of us is trying to be, and trying to work this out within the framework of a lifetime commitment between two people requires a tremendously deep understanding of that commitment and all the facets of interpersonal communication. When it all breaks down is where we can have the biggest impact!

As alway, just my 2 cents

tina

[Jessica86]

Also, basically, please everyone, stop taking personal offense every time you read something you don't like if it's not addressed at you. It's not always all about you.

This is what most people in these "hot" discussions need to understand.

I agree whole heartedly with the post. I know there are those like you, who feel they have been deprived of a life they should have had. There are other categories of dressers as well. What I believe is some are looking for help, thinking "This can't be how it is." Then, they come here, see it is how it is....and they just can not accept it. If that's so, they should just close the browser window, and be done. Nobody on either side can learn anything from someone who refuses to teach or be taught, but always has something to say.

[Alice Torn]

I think that there will never be mucm real understanding. Most gg's are very social, have many friends, and many male admirers. Not enough solitude and introspection. Most men, including CD's, live lives of quiet desperation", and die with their music still in them! Men are more loners, and have few close friends, don' have women constsntly asking them out, or getting hit on by GG's.
i am noticing men are getting hit on by men, more than by GG's. So, we have opposite realities going on! The CD man, living a lonely, often stark life socially , fantasizes being in demand, and admired, like most GG's. The GG does not have enough alone time, and of not drawing male attentio. For her, it is a rainforest of male attention, while for the lonesome male, it is usually a dry desert socially. of course, ther are always the exceptions. Good thread Alexa!

[Shananigans]

Example: Shenanigans mention of this, supposedly in response to my initial thread:

Where in the world did that come from? I never said anything about female children being confused about anything. I simply wrote about what I have observed. And of course, it's a 'generalization'. It's not feasible to write down every single experience, so we group together what composes the great majority of samples examined.
And, Shenanigans, please don't get angry at me, because really, I'm trying to do something positive here.

Also, basically, please everyone, stop taking personal offense every time you read something you don't like if it's not addressed at you. It's not always all about you.

Shenanigans, this part, I'm particularly addressing this last to you. You're one of the most supportive people here. So you should be well aware that there are people who either: 1. Aren't, or 2. Simply don't know a lot of what you do, so they need as much information as well as learning how we see them, as possible; and it's not all going to be easy to take, no matter how hard we try. Like you, they may easily 'read between the lines' and see things that aren't there, like the anger Stitch saw, or perhaps things you thought I meant, but did not. Men are literal; we don't usually 'alude' to anything. That applies to CD'ers as well as other men.

Lexi, that comment was in response to this quote by you, "We can see, yes we can. Even though we don't grow up as females, we can see what it's all centered on. From the moment you're self aware, you get 'pushed' into 'prepare for being a mommy' life. You get dolls for presents, and even from the moment you're born, you're put into pretty outfits and start having your hair styled in a pretty way. We understand; we see; you're made oh, so, constantly conscious of how you look. We see every woman's magazine, and what's in it. Career articles? Nope. Hobbies? Nope. Leisure time activities? Nope."

I take this quote as you trying to understand the development of my gender identity and implicating from this "development" why crossdressers focus on what they do.

My point was that this is not the case. Plenty of GGs develop their identity as female without a parade of dolls and Cosmo magazines.

You say, "You don't think we know what it takes to be a woman? Tell us. We'll listen. And we're willing to learn. And, isn't that one of the biggest things you want us to do?" And, when I tell you, you say that I am taking personal offense and get sour with me. Well, it's my gender and when you are titling things to all GGs and telling me what I can and cannot understand, you should expect that some GGs are going to little bit angry.

It doesn't take an advanced search function to see the past 1 or 2 pages of threads that have been posted on this forum...many with GG in the title.

But, really you are probably right in saying, "I may not know what it takes to be a woman; but then, you do not know what it takes to be a man, either, which is why you're usually so /confused/amazed/surprised/outraged that we want the life that you often feel you've been 'stuck with'." And, when you say, "What you simply can't 'get', is that it's not something we have chosen."

I guess I simply "can't get it." Maybe, I'm taking it personally...but, I'm a GG. I AM THE AUDIENCE THAT YOU ARE ADDRESSING TOWARDS! You can't address all GGs and then take it all back to just a few. From your original post, I gather that I "just can't get it." Am I wrong?"

It's so much easier just to say you're all right and that it's a null and void in trying to understand/come to terms with it all.

You are all such complex creatures that I cannot possibly come to comprehend. (That's called sarcasm).

I have my SO and she's all I really need to accept/understand anyway. So, done.

EDIT:

When you put all GGs in a title, I look down and say, "Hmm...was I born with a vagina? Okay this applies to me." You can't apply it to all the GGs on the forum and then get angry when you are basically telling the supportive GGs on here that they cannot understand. Did I take personal offense? Yes. And, you addressed it personally to me. And, you asked me to "help you understand," and I tried...then, it made everyone angry. Well, when you say GG, you are talking to me. If you say something that is about GGs that I don't agree with and it pisses me off, you get angry Shannon. And, I'm not happy with this forum as of late. And, no one liked what a lot of the other GGs had to say either in the other threads that are RECENT on the main forum. So, I'll go piss off. Edit this as you will. But, those are my somewhat lessons that you asked for on being a GG.

Class dismissed.

EDIT EDIT:

Do you know how everyone gets mad and says to GGs "you are painting with a broad brush." Well, I'm a minority on this forum and I can't get a whole parade of people to talk about broad brush stroking. But, I'm going to stand alone and say that it's not cool. And, if it can be brought up on other threads, it can be brought up by me in regards to my gender.

[Tamara Croft]

I wonder if there is a polling option available on this board?

No because I disabled it for the simple fact, MTF CD's (and I checked the stats and it was only them, not GG's, not FTM's, not TS's) wouldn't stop voting in polls not created for them and ruined them. Polls will not be put back on.

[Marleena]

No because I disabled it for the simple fact, MTF CD's (and I checked the stats and it was only them, not GG's, not FTM's, not TS's) wouldn't stop voting in polls not created for them and ruined them. Polls will not be put back on.

Thank you, I understand then.

[TxKimberly]

Thank you, I understand then.

Tamara - we have had our ups and downs - you might think well of me at this point or might think that I am a complete idiot (I certainly do!) - I am honestly not sure. I have to ask though - in the end who is really responsible for the poll problem? The idiots that dont read every post or even every OP before they vote, or the idiots that post polls demanding that only certain people are allowed to respond despite the overwhelming proof that it is not feasible to demand that only one small section of this forum respond to a given poll?
Are you SURE that it doesn't make better sense to bring the polls back and just make it clear that it is not an option to restrict a poll to only a small group among our majority?
PS - I think that even I once made the mistake of starting of poll and asking for only GG's to respond - NOT realistic!

Love ya - mean it!

[Tamara Croft]

No they aint coming back, they cause more issues and more work than you could imagine. You'd have to enforce a rule to stop members asking certain members only to post, cus let's face it, no one reads the rules.... not until they are slapped by them... so that's more work, then there's the people who just vote for voting sake and have never posted on the board... it's just not gonna happen... too much work thinking about it And I love ya too (you're probably the only one who does)

[sometimes_miss]

Lexi, that comment was in response to this quote by you, "We can see, yes we can. Even though we don't grow up as females, we can see what it's all centered on. From the moment you're self aware, you get 'pushed' into 'prepare for being a mommy' life. You get dolls for presents, and even from the moment you're born, you're put into pretty outfits and start having your hair styled in a pretty way. We understand; we see; you're made oh, so, constantly conscious of how you look. We see every woman's magazine, and what's in it. Career articles? Nope. Hobbies? Nope. Leisure time activities? Nope."

I take this quote as you trying to understand the development of my gender identity and implicating from this "development" why crossdressers focus on what they do.

My point was that this is not the case. Plenty of GGs develop their identity as female without a parade of dolls and Cosmo magazines.[/quote]
Nowhere did I write that this is where females get their female identity from. You took the quoted statement incorrectly; it wasn't meant to declare how girls get their gender identity. It was meant to describe the socialization of girls and how it pressures you into a role without taking into consideration your other desires.

You say, "You don't think we know what it takes to be a woman? Tell us. We'll listen. And we're willing to learn. And, isn't that one of the biggest things you want us to do?" And, when I tell you, you say that I am taking personal offense and get sour with me. Well, it's my gender and when you are titling things to all GGs and telling me what I can and cannot understand, you should expect that some GGs are going to little bit angry.

It doesn't take an advanced search function to see the past 1 or 2 pages of threads that have been posted on this forum...many with GG in the title.

What's in the title of a thread doesn't indicate who is posting in it. There are so many men here using female names and using female pronouns, and trying so hard to write in ways women do, that without a program, you often can't tell who the players are. Example; Where on your avatar or name area does it state that you are GG? Nowhere. And don't tell me to look at the picture, because users can use any picture they like as an avatar, unless someone complains about it.

But, really you are probably right in saying, "I may not know what it takes to be a woman; but then, you do not know what it takes to be a man, either, which is why you're usually so /confused/amazed/surprised/outraged that we want the life that you often feel you've been 'stuck with'." And, when you say, "What you simply can't 'get', is that it's not something we have chosen."

I guess I simply "can't get it." Maybe, I'm taking it personally...but, I'm a GG. I AM THE AUDIENCE THAT YOU ARE ADDRESSING TOWARDS! You can't address all GGs and then take it all back to just a few. From your original post, I gather that I "just can't get it." Am I wrong?"

The thing is, you're one of the few that does seem to 'get it'. But then again, common discussion rarely includes the word 'some' as a quantifier. It's not for 'a few'. Most women don't understand crossdressers; I'd say >99%. Seeing as lots of us don't even understand ourselves, I'd consider that an accurate statement. Or do you disagree on that?

It's so much easier just to say you're all right and that it's a null and void in trying to understand/come to terms with it all.

You are all such complex creatures that I cannot possibly come to comprehend. (That's called sarcasm).

Sarcasm really isn't very productive, so I'll avoid it.

I have my SO and she's all I really need to accept/understand anyway. So, done.
EDIT:
When you put all GGs in a title, I look down and say, "Hmm...was I born with a vagina? Okay this applies to me." You can't apply it to all the GGs on the forum and then get angry when you are basically telling the supportive GGs on here that they cannot understand. Did I take personal offense? Yes. And, you addressed it personally to me. And, you asked me to "help you understand," and I tried...then, it made everyone angry. Well, when you say GG, you are talking to me. If you say something that is about GGs that I don't agree with and it pisses me off, you get angry Shannon. And, I'm not happy with this forum as of late. And, no one liked what a lot of the other GGs had to say either in the other threads that are RECENT on the main forum. So, I'll go piss off. Edit this as you will. But, those are my somewhat lessons that you asked for on being a GG.

Stitch thought I was angry too; I really have no idea why you think that. But you sure seem rather ticked off about the whole thing. Why?
Shannon, it's a discussion forum. People aren't always going to agree on things, and they aren't always going to be happy with other's opinions. No one told you to 'piss off'. So far, all I've learned is that SOME women get mad when they misinterpret what I wrote, but there's not a lot I can do about that.



So I'd rather not get into a tag match discussing how my posts are going to be misinterpreted. If people wish to read things into my posts that aren't there, and ignore things that are there, I can't stop them from doing that, and then, of course, they wind up responding to something I never wrote. Oh yes; and, according to Barbara and Alan Pease, genuine women tend speak that way; I think it was called indirect speech communication, where things are implied, as opposed to how males use direct speech. And there's nothing inherently wrong with either, as long as both parties are using the same style. Problem is, during intersexual communication, we rarely do. It seems not much is to be gained from this. Please close the thread, Tamara.

[Tamara Croft]

Not nice when the shoe is on the other foot is it?

Thread closed.