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Thread: A Hustle work place

  1. #1
    Carla Heracane Missy's Avatar
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    A Hustle work place

    I am at work wearing panties and a bra under work uniform like every day
    coworker asked if I was wearing a bra? told her the truth
    later the manager came and ask to speak with me
    he told me that I had to not wear a bra any more and that I just may lose my job
    was told that I poses a hustle work tension towards the other employees
    WHEN IN STRESS WEAR A DRESS
    BE HAPPY WITH YOURSELF IT ALL YOU GOT

  2. #2
    Member LeannL's Avatar
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    Missy,
    I don't know if Kansas has a statute protecting transgendered persons but the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals has recently ruled that discrimination against a gender non-conforming person is gender discrimination. Their recent ruling also noted that they are not the first Circuit to have come to this conclusion. There is a thread in the Media section with more information. I would mention to the boss that recent Appeals court decisions would suggest that firing you would be illegal. Here is the link to the actual opinion:

    http://http://www.ca11.uscourts.gov/.../201014833.pdf

    The 11th Circuit is considered a fairly conservative one and most think that if they have decided this case in this manner, then others will follow.

    Good luck,

    Leann
    Leann

    Enjoy who you are but stay safe.

  3. #3
    Seňora Member
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    I think you mean hostile workplace dang that auto correct... Anyway I guess it really depends on how much you value this job and if it is worth risking your personal privacy pushing the matter.

    If other employees view you wearing a bra is making a hostile workplace for them. Then your only alternative to complying is to openly declare yourself as a transgender and check your states employment discrimination laws and see if they offer some protection.

    In the end it's probably going to mean you filing a lawsuit, following through, and dealing with the media circus that will follow.

  4. #4
    Im not Alicia Sliverstone Clueless's Avatar
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    Is there something in the employee dress code about men wearing bras or women's clothes? How noticeable was it? If it's just a few lines that can be seen, that's kinda lame. A see thru shirt with a bra could make some people wonder. I can't see it raising to the level of sexual harassment or "tension" whatever that is. Maybe you could get the next size up shirt so it fits a bit baggy on you. What kind of job is it?
    Last edited by Clueless; 12-19-2011 at 01:48 AM. Reason: many typos

  5. #5
    Senior Age Member sissystephanie's Avatar
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    I am not at all sure I understand what a "Hustle work place" is, or what "Hustle work tension" is! But I also wonder why you told the lady coworker that you were wearing a bra. Could she see it? It was none of her business, and obviously she told the manager!!

    Hope you don't lose your job over it!
    Stephanie

    Lady on the outside, but man underneath!

  6. #6
    Swans have more fun! sandra-leigh's Avatar
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    What was your attitude when you told your co-worker ? There is "Why yes, you are right, I am", and there is "Ya? What's it to you?!". The latter could be considered a hostile attitude towards other employees even if the other employee should not have been inquiring about such things.

    On the other hand, if the employee (or someone she told) happened to have strong religious or moral objections to men wearing bras, then there might have been a "complaint" about it, and then at that point if you were to wear a bra after being told that people objected, you could potentially be considered to be deliberately provoking them. Again, not that it should be any of their business, but you know how people can get huffy about things they ought to ignore.

    It is a sad truth that when it comes to something nebulous like strong religious objections, it can be easier to replace one employee (you) than to replace several complainers who are in the wrong to try to impose their beliefs on others.

  7. #7
    Member LeannL's Avatar
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    All,

    I need to be clearer than I was above. If this job is covered by the EEO regulations, sex (gender) discrimination would not be allowed and then, based upon the 11th Circuit's ruling, your boss' actions would also sex discrimination. To wit, the Appeals court said:

    A person is defined as transgender precisely because of the perception that his or her behavior transgresses gender stereotypes. “[T]he very acts that define transgender people as transgender are those that contradict stereotypes of gender appropriate appearance and behavior.” Ilona M. Turner, Sex Stereotyping Per Se: Transgender Employees and Title VII, 95 Cal. L. Rev. 561, 563 (2007); see also Taylor Flinn, Transforming the Debate: Why We Need to Include Transgender Rights in the Struggles for Sex and Sexual Orientation Equality, 101 Colum. L. Rev. 392, 392 (2001) (defining transgender persons as those whose “appearance, behavior, or other personal characteristics differ from traditional gender norms”). There is thus a congruence between discriminating against transgender and transsexual individuals and discrimination on the basis of gender-based behavioral norms.

    Accordingly, discrimination against a transgender individual because of her gender non-conformity is sex discrimination, whether it’s described as being on the basis of sex or gender. Indeed, several circuits have so held. For example, in Schwenk v. Hartford, the Ninth Circuit concluded that a male-to-female transgender plaintiff who was singled out for harassment because he presented and defined himself as a woman had stated an actionable claim for sex discrimination under the Gender Motivated Violence Act because “the perpetrator’s actions stem from the fact that he believed that the victim was a man who ‘failed to act like one.’” 204 F.3d 1187, 1198-1203 (9th Cir. 2000).

    The court is clear, I think, that discrimination based upon your actions not meeting the gender stereotypes is sex discrimination. If your company is covered by the anti-discrimination laws (and 99.99% are due to the interstate commerce clause), then you are protected. As someone said, you might have to sue them if they take action but letting your boss read the opinion (and point out the above quote) and then pass it on to their lawyers should quickly get him off of your back. The threat of back pay, damages and lawyers fees should be enough. (Of course, the guy who lost the Georgia suit was absolutely stupid! So, you can never tell.)

    Depending upon where you work and if you have an HR department, I would quickly have a quiet conversation with HR first. After that, they should talk to your boss. At that point, it would be wise for you, HR and your boss to then meet and have a conversation. If you don't have an HR department, then I would have a non-confrontational conversation with your boss where you point out that the courts have been supporting transgendered people such as yourself. I would emphasize that you are are not trying to make a big deal out of this but you need to be yourself and ask him to support you. While having the court's opinion in your favor, be careful in your attitude and tone. Use it to point out that you are helping your boss and the company avoid a sure loss if they weren't aware of the law and therefore didn't follow it.

    Good luck,
    Leann
    Leann

    Enjoy who you are but stay safe.

  8. #8
    A California Girl Rachel Morley's Avatar
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    "Hustle work place"?? .. if you mean hostile work place then yes, I get what you're saying. In California where I live it doesn't matter what your intention was, it only matters what the impact is to your co-workers (we all have to take training in this) ... having said that I fail to see how the outline of your bra is "hostile" or making a co-worker feel uncomfortable, but then again, it's not the intention, it's only the impact that matters. i.e. the law is on the side of the person who feels violated.
    .
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  9. #9
    The One True Diva KandisTX's Avatar
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    One other thing to consider is the work place. What kind of business is it? There are many reasons why the manager would say something to you about no more wearing a bra to work. There are laws to protect you out there, but as Rachel pointed out "Intention is not the issue", "Impact on those around you" that is the issue. While you may not feel that your wearing a bra is anyone's business but your own, the others around you may well feel "put off" by it, and that could create a "hostile work place". I'm sure many of us wish we could wear what we wanted to work. I work 4 days a week myself and for two of those days I am the only one in the office. I wear panties and pantyhose daily, and on those days when I am the only one there, I wear a bra or a body briefer as well, BUT as I said, I am the only one there. Could I dress completely? Probably if I weren't in the transportation industry and did not care about how those I come in contact with (truck drivers and some vendors) thought of me. I do not dress fully because it is not wise in my position, not worth the risk of certain co-workers whom are also outside friends of mine. We must make our decisions carefully and in this economy, is wearing a bra worth risking gainful employment?
    Someone once told me "Put on Your big girl panties and deal with it". If they only knew, I WAS ALREADY WEARING THEM.

    I wear the bras and panties so my wife doesn't have to.

    WARNING:Any institutions or individuals using this site or any of its associated sites for studies , projects or any other reasons You DO NOT have permission to use any of my profile or pictures in any form or forum both current and future. If you have or do, it will be considered a violation of my privacy and will be subject to legal ramifications.

  10. #10
    Member Vanessa Storrs's Avatar
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    Time to lawyer up. Call the ACLU and get their advice. Even if you have decided to take no action it is best to have this on the record in case. The company does something to you later. It appears that you have a strong case for harrasment, discrimination and a hostile work environment.

  11. #11
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    There are only two options at this point. Lawyer up and fight for your rights or cave to discrimination.
    I'd have my lawyer contact the HR department directly the have HR come to me or my lawyer with their solution offer and go from there.
    Last edited by Miranda-E; 12-19-2011 at 02:10 AM.

  12. #12
    Silver Member DanaR's Avatar
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    Next time don't answer the question, your co-worker shouldn't have asked anyway. Many times people give too much information.
    Dana Ryan

  13. #13
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    Your co-worker sexually harassed you first by questioning what type of undergarments you were wearing. Asking if you were wearing a bra is no different that asking if you were wearing boxers or briefs that day.

    Problem is that in today's society, we all tend to think of sexual harassment as being primarily women getting bothered by men, very rarely the other way around. What if you had asked her the same question? You'd be out the door in no time.

  14. #14
    Member LeannL's Avatar
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    With respect to this being a "hostile" workplace, Missy, by wearing a bra or any other piece of clothing (assuming there is no offensive writing on it), cannot make the environment hostile. She is not picking on anyone nor actively harassing anyone. On the other hand, her boss is creating a hostile environment because he/she is telling her that her "kind" aren't welcome there. This is no different than if she were gay, African-American, or a GG.

    With respect to Missy wearing a bra causing someone distress based upon religious or other beliefs, the courts have put the expression of one's being (in this case Missy feels that she is a woman and needs a bra) comes ahead of someone else's belief as long at it is not truly (physically) disruptive. For example, someone can't get fired because he/she now wears a wedding ring from their gay marriage. Missy could wear a dress if she wanted to and the act of doing so would not create a hostile environment. Now, if having bare legs would cause a safety issue, the workplace could exclude a dress from acceptable clothing but it would apply to both men and women. (I work in such an environment - a chemical lab.)

    Missy, just let HR know that you feel that you are being sexually harassed if things don't change.

    Leann
    Leann

    Enjoy who you are but stay safe.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Foxglove's Avatar
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    Missy, I think there's been a number of good posts on this thread. Like this one from Renee:

    Quote Originally Posted by Renee W View Post
    Your co-worker sexually harassed you first by questioning what type of undergarments you were wearing. Asking if you were wearing a bra is no different that asking if you were wearing boxers or briefs that day.

    Problem is that in today's society, we all tend to think of sexual harassment as being primarily women getting bothered by men, very rarely the other way around. What if you had asked her the same question? You'd be out the door in no time.
    In my view, your underwear is your business and nobody else's. And Renee is right: would anyone these days ask a woman about her underwear? This is sex discrimination--even though people tend to think that men can't be victims of that.

    But Rachel's reply has to be considered:

    Quote Originally Posted by Rachel Morley View Post
    In California where I live it doesn't matter what your intention was, it only matters what the impact is to your co-workers (we all have to take training in this) ... having said that I fail to see how the outline of your bra is "hostile" or making a co-worker feel uncomfortable, but then again, it's not the intention, it's only the impact that matters. i.e. the law is on the side of the person who feels violated.
    This is the sort of law that irritates me no end, and I think it's wrong. The problem with this sort of law is this: you often have no way of knowing whether what you're doing is wrong or not. If it's a question of stealing a car, that's easy: you know it's wrong. But you can't always foresee what others might or might not object to. It leaves it up to them to decide whether or not they dislike something that you're doing. If they decide they do dislike it, you're in trouble. If they decide they're cool with it, you're OK. But it's left to you to try and guess what other people might or might not object to. And you can't always know. Law should specify what's permitted and what's not, so that you know where you stand. This sort of law allows people to declare something permissible or otherwise accoring to their whims.

    In the case of your wearing a bra to work, I think it could be foreseen that there would be objections. But whose business is it what you wear? This sort of law allows people to declare that things that aren't really their business are their business after all. Rather than encouraging people to be tolerant and accepting, this law allows everybody to be a little tyrant whenever it suits him/her. That said, as Rachel points out, it is law (at least in California) and you have to go along with it until it's changed.

    People are advising you to lawyer up. I think I myself would talk to a lawyer, perhaps even contact the ACLU. But I think you need to decide first and foremost whether you can afford to lose the job, which might be a possibility if you press the issue. I'd certainly look into the legal side of things, but maybe a bit of caution is also warranted.

  16. #16
    Member LeannL's Avatar
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    Annabelle, Rachel and others,

    You are suggesting that Missy's wearing a bra could create a hostile environment simply because someone can take offense to it. You are right that something someone does or says can, at times, be found to create a hostile environment based upon the other (affected) party's interpretation. However, this requires Missy to actively do something. For example, if Missy were to say to a woman (or a man), depending upon Missy's position in the company, that she thought they looked cute (or handsome), then that person could interpret that as a sexual advance and thus she would be creating a hostile environment. On the other hand, if I were to wear a pink shirt to work and some guy thinks that men should wear pink, his belief that men shouldn't wear pink, even if I am doing it on purpose, doesn't create a hostile environment. The jump from a pink shirt to a bra is non-existent. Therefore, wearing a bra under your shirt (blouse) cannot create a hostile environment even if someone believes it to be wrong. What if Missy has gynecomastia and needs to wear a bra to prevent chaffing? Someone's belief that she shouldn't does make this a hostile environment for anyone else.

    Hope this helps.

    Leann
    Leann

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  17. #17
    Swans have more fun! sandra-leigh's Avatar
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    Leann, I own a sweat-shirt that has a line-drawing of a Matisse nude female figure. I used to wear it at work until I realized that in doing so I could be considered that I was creating a hostile workplace environment. It was "art", but it could still certainly be considered uncomfortable and thus hostile, just as if I was using "artistic nudes" as my screen-saver.

    The act of wearing something is legally considered to be doing or saying something -- otherwise publicly wearing T-shirts with "offensive" messages would not be considered to be protected speech under the First Amendment in the USA.

    The situation is unfair, and might legally constitute sexual discrimination if women in the company are permitted to wear bras under the uniform (as seems likely), but we need to cite the right law.

  18. #18
    Senior Member Foxglove's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeannL View Post
    Annabelle, Rachel and others,

    You are suggesting that Missy's wearing a bra could create a hostile environment simply because someone can take offense to it. You are right that something someone does or says can, at times, be found to create a hostile environment based upon the other (affected) party's interpretation. However, this requires Missy to actively do something. For example, if Missy were to say to a woman (or a man), depending upon Missy's position in the company, that she thought they looked cute (or handsome), then that person could interpret that as a sexual advance and thus she would be creating a hostile environment. On the other hand, if I were to wear a pink shirt to work and some guy thinks that men should wear pink, his belief that men shouldn't wear pink, even if I am doing it on purpose, doesn't create a hostile environment. The jump from a pink shirt to a bra is non-existent. Therefore, wearing a bra under your shirt (blouse) cannot create a hostile environment even if someone believes it to be wrong. What if Missy has gynecomastia and needs to wear a bra to prevent chaffing? Someone's belief that she shouldn't does make this a hostile environment for anyone else.

    Hope this helps.

    Leann
    Hello, Leann! I won't speak for the others, but I think you've misunderstood what I said.

    "You are suggesting that Missy's wearing a bra could create a hostile environment simply because someone can take offense to it." No, this isn't what I'm saying. I think this is what the law is saying, and I disagree with the law.

    "You are right that something someone does or says can, at times, be found to create a hostile environment based upon the other (affected) party's interpretation." Exactly, and this is the problem with the law. It allows somebody else to interpret my act, regardless of my intentions, as hostile to them, and it therefore gives them the right to veto my actions simply on the basis of how they feel about them.

    Let's say that I wear a bra to work. Jack hates it and he complains. I'm breaking the law because I've created a hostile environment for Jack. But Joe's cool with it, so I'm not breaking the law because I haven't created a hostile environment for Joe.

    The same act is legal or illegal, simply depending on how some random citizen/colleague feels about it. And that's poor law in my view. Rather we should look at the act in itself and decide if it's OK or bad, harmless or harmful, permissible or forbidden.

    Nobody wants their property stolen, so we all agree that theft is harmful and we forbid it. But wearing a bra to work? Where's the harm in that? So why forbid it, just because somebody else doesn't like it? If Jack doesn't think a man should wear a bra, he doesn't have to wear one, and who's going to get upset about that? But Missy's act is harming no one, and giving someone the right to declare, "I don't like this, so you can't do it," gives everyone the right to butt into everybody else's private life and life-style. That's poor law in my view.

    I think we agree with each other, Leann.

    All the best, Annabelle.
    Last edited by Foxglove; 12-19-2011 at 12:37 PM.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Melissa Rose's Avatar
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    Just the act of wearing a bra would not constitute creating a hostile work environment. Harassment or hostility is prohibited, but making others uncomfortable is not. If that was the case then some people's personalities could be considered creating a hostile work environment. There is a common sense component to work place harassment laws. It is usually worded using the terms "usually" or "normally" and often societal norms are used as a guideline. It is there with the intention to prevent trivial or unreasonable complaints from being used. It is a gray area, thus the reason some cases end up in court. I don't like snakes, but I can't reasonably claim harassment or hostility if someone wears a shirt or has a calendar in their cubicle depicting snakes. If they brought a live snake into work and it would be in my presence then I could possibly claim a hostile work environment if I voiced a complaint about my fear of snakes and the snake was not related to the work done at the company.

    IMHO, a better approach instead of going right for a legal solution is try to work out a compromise. Perhaps offering to wear clothing where the bra is not readily visible or noticeable is something everyone can live with. There is probably some type of solution or compromise everyone can comfortably and easily agree with. Speaking from experience as a long time manager, if you jump immediately to a legal solution, you will be a marked person for the rest of your tenure at that work site, and branded as a troublemaker and difficult. While it is not fair and often misguided, there are legal ways to deal with problem employees and in ways free from entanglements with the original issue. It is a form of retaliation, but it can be done so it is transparent. It may not involving firing you, but it could cost you promotions, better work assignments and other perks. Finding a compromise is a much better solution and one that will not create so many bad feeling and emotions. Your manager or employer is wrong, but try to work it out first. Know and exercise your rights, but use legal means as a last resort and make sure it is a battle you want to fight.
    Last edited by Melissa Rose; 12-19-2011 at 01:01 PM.

  20. #20
    Chickie Chickhe's Avatar
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    This is why you should never answer a question that is not related to work to a co-worker. You should always respond in a very friendly way, "Why are you asking me a question like that?". This allows the person who thinks you are doing something wrong the opportunity to express themselves....you then record in email or on paper, the date, time and place and exactly what the person said. This can then be used to justify your case later, if the problems happen a second time. Also, do not agrue with anyone, just tell them you do not feel comfortable discussing your choice of underwear with them.

    ...with your manager... you must respond by saying how deeply offended that they and your coworker have made a comment about your choice of underwear and copy HR if your manager doesn't change their tune. I would probably leave the bra at home until the dust settles (it shows good will on your part...it doesn't mean you are wrong). The funny thing about the term 'hositle work environment', is it is a legal term used to describe what an employer does to a an employee....its not employee to employee and it doesn't go employee to work place. ...basically, they are bending the laws for their own purpose and that is a big no no in discrimination law.
    Chickie

  21. #21
    Gold Member DonnaT's Avatar
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    Although there have been a couple of District or Circuit Courts to support trans rights, these courts do not have precident setting decisions over other distrct courts. Kansas is under the 10th US District Court.

    In Kansas, a hostile work environment exists when an employer maintains an overly sexual work environment. Your employer's allowing or not allowing you to wear a bra does not create a hostile work environment for your coworkers or you.

    Also, in Kansas, it's illegal for an employer to terminate an employee for reasons not contained in the employment contract, if one exists.

    Legally, however, you wouldn't have any support outside a long (many years?) court battle.

    If you wish to continue to wear a bra, then I suggest getting a doctor to provide a medical reason, if possible.
    DonnaT

  22. #22
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    Missy, it sounds like you have a hostile coworker, and now your boss. It's probably best to comply with his wishes but if you comply and are let go from your job it is best to have this documented. It will become a legal matter if it plays out that way. I have no idea what laws in your workplace and geographical area are.

  23. #23
    Silver Member BRANDYJ's Avatar
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    This is not going to be a popular response, but it's how I feel about it. If you "need" a bra for support I might fell differently. But if you are a crossdresser and not going through transition as would a transsexual, then I can only assume you wore it because you like to underdress for the many various reasons that a crossdresser might feel right about it. I also assume you otherwise were presenting as a male. I don't blame any employer for not wanting a male to wear a bra under his male clothes and create discomfort among other employees, or worse yet, that employer's customers should your job require you to interact in person with them. I am a crossdresser and even I as an employer would ask you not to wear a bra under your male clothes where other employees or my customers and clients can be made uncomfortable around a man wearing a bra. Do as you wish, dress the way you wish, but not in the work place. I sometimes underdress in panties at work, but no one is ever going to see them, so that's different. I feel every employer has the right (or should have), to employee only those that represent the business in a professional manor. A man wearing a visible bra distracts not only other employees, but the potential loss of business to those that think it's weird, strange or some sort of sexual kink.
    I value my job, my being accepted by all employees, customers and the employer to much to risk wearing a bra or any other garment that can be detected easily. It is not considered acceptable behavior in our general society, so it is improper to wear a bra when at work and dressed as a man when your outer clothes is thin enough, see thru enough to let it show or see the outline of a bra. Any male that would do this is being very foolish in my opinion. Why do some of us think we have the right to force our kinks or lifestyle on others that don't like it or don't understand? Again, if you are a transitioning TS and the topic was discussed before hand with the employer, then and only then would I agree with all this lawyer and sue nonsense.
    I don't force my choice of clothes on anyone that may be offended or made to feel uncomfortable around me. Yes I do care what others think...sorry.
    If you can't be fired for wearing the bra, a smart employer can concoct other reasons to let you go. If you did not conform with my wishes as an employer, I know I would.

  24. #24
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    Yeah. I agree. Leave the darn bra at home. Is it really worth it? Why bother with all that animosity?

    Stephie

  25. #25
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    Someone in the workplace makes unwelcome comments or questions about a workers underwear and the boss supports it, and people thinks its ok.
    This is exactly why the OP needs an attorney and a dated filed complaint to prove retaliation if fired at a later date.
    Its that or cower in the closet, other are no other options.

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