Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 40

Thread: A Hustle work place

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Carla Heracane Missy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    ks
    Posts
    448

    A Hustle work place

    I am at work wearing panties and a bra under work uniform like every day
    coworker asked if I was wearing a bra? told her the truth
    later the manager came and ask to speak with me
    he told me that I had to not wear a bra any more and that I just may lose my job
    was told that I poses a hustle work tension towards the other employees
    WHEN IN STRESS WEAR A DRESS
    BE HAPPY WITH YOURSELF IT ALL YOU GOT

  2. #2
    Member LeannL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Mostly Connecticut
    Posts
    561
    Missy,
    I don't know if Kansas has a statute protecting transgendered persons but the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals has recently ruled that discrimination against a gender non-conforming person is gender discrimination. Their recent ruling also noted that they are not the first Circuit to have come to this conclusion. There is a thread in the Media section with more information. I would mention to the boss that recent Appeals court decisions would suggest that firing you would be illegal. Here is the link to the actual opinion:

    http://http://www.ca11.uscourts.gov/.../201014833.pdf

    The 11th Circuit is considered a fairly conservative one and most think that if they have decided this case in this manner, then others will follow.

    Good luck,

    Leann
    Leann

    Enjoy who you are but stay safe.

  3. #3
    Banned Read only
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    4,410
    I think you mean hostile workplace dang that auto correct... Anyway I guess it really depends on how much you value this job and if it is worth risking your personal privacy pushing the matter.

    If other employees view you wearing a bra is making a hostile workplace for them. Then your only alternative to complying is to openly declare yourself as a transgender and check your states employment discrimination laws and see if they offer some protection.

    In the end it's probably going to mean you filing a lawsuit, following through, and dealing with the media circus that will follow.

  4. #4
    Trouble.. Yep thats me Beth Mays's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Northeast Tennessee
    Posts
    425
    I am a Teamster job steward, I wear nail polish, an ear ring and other items under my "Brown". My boss HATES these beyond words, BUT. not a damn thing he can do about them. I am out to a few guys thanks to my wife posting twice on my Facebook page, and to the women in the office by my choice.
    many states are an "employment at will" basically that says unless you CAN prove discrimination you can be let go at any time.
    Contract spells out what we can and can not do in many things, it also protects us from the BS just because management don't like it.
    I would first go to HR and ask for a written copy of the dress code, I would give a written account of what happen and ask HR to make a copy and sign both with the date and time. This one act will convey you mean business. as soon as you walk out of HR phones WILL start to ring.
    If you want to keep this job, don't give in now or they WILL find something to let you go for in a couple of weeks or a month. Should you ever be confronted by your boss/supervisor ever again, as soon as it starts respond " would you please just put it on paper for me. If you show you know your rights, you will get to keep your rights… give them up and they will never come back.

  5. #5
    Im not Alicia Sliverstone Clueless's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    139
    Is there something in the employee dress code about men wearing bras or women's clothes? How noticeable was it? If it's just a few lines that can be seen, that's kinda lame. A see thru shirt with a bra could make some people wonder. I can't see it raising to the level of sexual harassment or "tension" whatever that is. Maybe you could get the next size up shirt so it fits a bit baggy on you. What kind of job is it?
    Last edited by Clueless; 12-19-2011 at 01:48 AM. Reason: many typos

  6. #6
    Senior Age Member sissystephanie's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Alpharetta, GA
    Posts
    4,644
    I am not at all sure I understand what a "Hustle work place" is, or what "Hustle work tension" is! But I also wonder why you told the lady coworker that you were wearing a bra. Could she see it? It was none of her business, and obviously she told the manager!!

    Hope you don't lose your job over it!
    Stephanie

    Lady on the outside, but man underneath!

  7. #7
    Swans have more fun! sandra-leigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Central Canada
    Posts
    7,322
    What was your attitude when you told your co-worker ? There is "Why yes, you are right, I am", and there is "Ya? What's it to you?!". The latter could be considered a hostile attitude towards other employees even if the other employee should not have been inquiring about such things.

    On the other hand, if the employee (or someone she told) happened to have strong religious or moral objections to men wearing bras, then there might have been a "complaint" about it, and then at that point if you were to wear a bra after being told that people objected, you could potentially be considered to be deliberately provoking them. Again, not that it should be any of their business, but you know how people can get huffy about things they ought to ignore.

    It is a sad truth that when it comes to something nebulous like strong religious objections, it can be easier to replace one employee (you) than to replace several complainers who are in the wrong to try to impose their beliefs on others.

  8. #8
    Member LeannL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Mostly Connecticut
    Posts
    561
    All,

    I need to be clearer than I was above. If this job is covered by the EEO regulations, sex (gender) discrimination would not be allowed and then, based upon the 11th Circuit's ruling, your boss' actions would also sex discrimination. To wit, the Appeals court said:

    A person is defined as transgender precisely because of the perception that his or her behavior transgresses gender stereotypes. “[T]he very acts that define transgender people as transgender are those that contradict stereotypes of gender appropriate appearance and behavior.” Ilona M. Turner, Sex Stereotyping Per Se: Transgender Employees and Title VII, 95 Cal. L. Rev. 561, 563 (2007); see also Taylor Flinn, Transforming the Debate: Why We Need to Include Transgender Rights in the Struggles for Sex and Sexual Orientation Equality, 101 Colum. L. Rev. 392, 392 (2001) (defining transgender persons as those whose “appearance, behavior, or other personal characteristics differ from traditional gender norms”). There is thus a congruence between discriminating against transgender and transsexual individuals and discrimination on the basis of gender-based behavioral norms.

    Accordingly, discrimination against a transgender individual because of her gender non-conformity is sex discrimination, whether it’s described as being on the basis of sex or gender. Indeed, several circuits have so held. For example, in Schwenk v. Hartford, the Ninth Circuit concluded that a male-to-female transgender plaintiff who was singled out for harassment because he presented and defined himself as a woman had stated an actionable claim for sex discrimination under the Gender Motivated Violence Act because “the perpetrator’s actions stem from the fact that he believed that the victim was a man who ‘failed to act like one.’” 204 F.3d 1187, 1198-1203 (9th Cir. 2000).

    The court is clear, I think, that discrimination based upon your actions not meeting the gender stereotypes is sex discrimination. If your company is covered by the anti-discrimination laws (and 99.99% are due to the interstate commerce clause), then you are protected. As someone said, you might have to sue them if they take action but letting your boss read the opinion (and point out the above quote) and then pass it on to their lawyers should quickly get him off of your back. The threat of back pay, damages and lawyers fees should be enough. (Of course, the guy who lost the Georgia suit was absolutely stupid! So, you can never tell.)

    Depending upon where you work and if you have an HR department, I would quickly have a quiet conversation with HR first. After that, they should talk to your boss. At that point, it would be wise for you, HR and your boss to then meet and have a conversation. If you don't have an HR department, then I would have a non-confrontational conversation with your boss where you point out that the courts have been supporting transgendered people such as yourself. I would emphasize that you are are not trying to make a big deal out of this but you need to be yourself and ask him to support you. While having the court's opinion in your favor, be careful in your attitude and tone. Use it to point out that you are helping your boss and the company avoid a sure loss if they weren't aware of the law and therefore didn't follow it.

    Good luck,
    Leann
    Leann

    Enjoy who you are but stay safe.

  9. #9
    A California Girl Rachel Morley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    4,911
    "Hustle work place"?? .. if you mean hostile work place then yes, I get what you're saying. In California where I live it doesn't matter what your intention was, it only matters what the impact is to your co-workers (we all have to take training in this) ... having said that I fail to see how the outline of your bra is "hostile" or making a co-worker feel uncomfortable, but then again, it's not the intention, it's only the impact that matters. i.e. the law is on the side of the person who feels violated.
    .
    The River City Gems - Northern California's largest and most active crossdressing & transgender support group!

  10. #10
    The One True Diva KandisTX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Posts
    1,256
    One other thing to consider is the work place. What kind of business is it? There are many reasons why the manager would say something to you about no more wearing a bra to work. There are laws to protect you out there, but as Rachel pointed out "Intention is not the issue", "Impact on those around you" that is the issue. While you may not feel that your wearing a bra is anyone's business but your own, the others around you may well feel "put off" by it, and that could create a "hostile work place". I'm sure many of us wish we could wear what we wanted to work. I work 4 days a week myself and for two of those days I am the only one in the office. I wear panties and pantyhose daily, and on those days when I am the only one there, I wear a bra or a body briefer as well, BUT as I said, I am the only one there. Could I dress completely? Probably if I weren't in the transportation industry and did not care about how those I come in contact with (truck drivers and some vendors) thought of me. I do not dress fully because it is not wise in my position, not worth the risk of certain co-workers whom are also outside friends of mine. We must make our decisions carefully and in this economy, is wearing a bra worth risking gainful employment?
    Someone once told me "Put on Your big girl panties and deal with it". If they only knew, I WAS ALREADY WEARING THEM.

    I wear the bras and panties so my wife doesn't have to.

    WARNING:Any institutions or individuals using this site or any of its associated sites for studies , projects or any other reasons You DO NOT have permission to use any of my profile or pictures in any form or forum both current and future. If you have or do, it will be considered a violation of my privacy and will be subject to legal ramifications.

  11. #11
    Junior Member Raychel Torn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    85
    Several people have done a good job of outlining the law in your situation. But just to make it clear. You can not be found to have created a hostile work place by underdressing or otherwise expressing your sexuality in a way that is not aimed at others (underdressing clearly is not). Just because someone else is offended by your actions does not mean you have created an hostile work place. Point of fact, the complain and order for your to stop is a step moving in the direction of creating a hostile work place for you. So, even if your co-workers "feel violated" so long as you are only expressing your personal sexual identity in a way that is not directed at another person "YOU" are the person who is having hostility directed at them and YOUR rights are the ones being violated. I will bet my law degree on this one.
    Raychel

  12. #12
    Member Vanessa Storrs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Susanville California
    Posts
    387
    Time to lawyer up. Call the ACLU and get their advice. Even if you have decided to take no action it is best to have this on the record in case. The company does something to you later. It appears that you have a strong case for harrasment, discrimination and a hostile work environment.

  13. #13
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    494
    There are only two options at this point. Lawyer up and fight for your rights or cave to discrimination.
    I'd have my lawyer contact the HR department directly the have HR come to me or my lawyer with their solution offer and go from there.
    Last edited by Miranda-E; 12-19-2011 at 02:10 AM.

  14. #14
    Silver Member DanaR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Shopping at the mall, in the Pacific NW USA
    Posts
    2,088
    Next time don't answer the question, your co-worker shouldn't have asked anyway. Many times people give too much information.
    Dana Ryan

  15. #15
    Aspiring Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Shenandoah Valley, Va
    Posts
    531
    Your co-worker sexually harassed you first by questioning what type of undergarments you were wearing. Asking if you were wearing a bra is no different that asking if you were wearing boxers or briefs that day.

    Problem is that in today's society, we all tend to think of sexual harassment as being primarily women getting bothered by men, very rarely the other way around. What if you had asked her the same question? You'd be out the door in no time.

  16. #16
    Member LeannL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Mostly Connecticut
    Posts
    561
    With respect to this being a "hostile" workplace, Missy, by wearing a bra or any other piece of clothing (assuming there is no offensive writing on it), cannot make the environment hostile. She is not picking on anyone nor actively harassing anyone. On the other hand, her boss is creating a hostile environment because he/she is telling her that her "kind" aren't welcome there. This is no different than if she were gay, African-American, or a GG.

    With respect to Missy wearing a bra causing someone distress based upon religious or other beliefs, the courts have put the expression of one's being (in this case Missy feels that she is a woman and needs a bra) comes ahead of someone else's belief as long at it is not truly (physically) disruptive. For example, someone can't get fired because he/she now wears a wedding ring from their gay marriage. Missy could wear a dress if she wanted to and the act of doing so would not create a hostile environment. Now, if having bare legs would cause a safety issue, the workplace could exclude a dress from acceptable clothing but it would apply to both men and women. (I work in such an environment - a chemical lab.)

    Missy, just let HR know that you feel that you are being sexually harassed if things don't change.

    Leann
    Leann

    Enjoy who you are but stay safe.

  17. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    1,895
    Missy, I think there's been a number of good posts on this thread. Like this one from Renee:

    Quote Originally Posted by Renee W View Post
    Your co-worker sexually harassed you first by questioning what type of undergarments you were wearing. Asking if you were wearing a bra is no different that asking if you were wearing boxers or briefs that day.

    Problem is that in today's society, we all tend to think of sexual harassment as being primarily women getting bothered by men, very rarely the other way around. What if you had asked her the same question? You'd be out the door in no time.
    In my view, your underwear is your business and nobody else's. And Renee is right: would anyone these days ask a woman about her underwear? This is sex discrimination--even though people tend to think that men can't be victims of that.

    But Rachel's reply has to be considered:

    Quote Originally Posted by Rachel Morley View Post
    In California where I live it doesn't matter what your intention was, it only matters what the impact is to your co-workers (we all have to take training in this) ... having said that I fail to see how the outline of your bra is "hostile" or making a co-worker feel uncomfortable, but then again, it's not the intention, it's only the impact that matters. i.e. the law is on the side of the person who feels violated.
    This is the sort of law that irritates me no end, and I think it's wrong. The problem with this sort of law is this: you often have no way of knowing whether what you're doing is wrong or not. If it's a question of stealing a car, that's easy: you know it's wrong. But you can't always foresee what others might or might not object to. It leaves it up to them to decide whether or not they dislike something that you're doing. If they decide they do dislike it, you're in trouble. If they decide they're cool with it, you're OK. But it's left to you to try and guess what other people might or might not object to. And you can't always know. Law should specify what's permitted and what's not, so that you know where you stand. This sort of law allows people to declare something permissible or otherwise accoring to their whims.

    In the case of your wearing a bra to work, I think it could be foreseen that there would be objections. But whose business is it what you wear? This sort of law allows people to declare that things that aren't really their business are their business after all. Rather than encouraging people to be tolerant and accepting, this law allows everybody to be a little tyrant whenever it suits him/her. That said, as Rachel points out, it is law (at least in California) and you have to go along with it until it's changed.

    People are advising you to lawyer up. I think I myself would talk to a lawyer, perhaps even contact the ACLU. But I think you need to decide first and foremost whether you can afford to lose the job, which might be a possibility if you press the issue. I'd certainly look into the legal side of things, but maybe a bit of caution is also warranted.

  18. #18
    Gold Member Marleena's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    5,924
    Missy, it sounds like you have a hostile coworker, and now your boss. It's probably best to comply with his wishes but if you comply and are let go from your job it is best to have this documented. It will become a legal matter if it plays out that way. I have no idea what laws in your workplace and geographical area are.

  19. #19
    Silver Member BRANDYJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Fort Myers, Florida
    Posts
    2,676
    This is not going to be a popular response, but it's how I feel about it. If you "need" a bra for support I might fell differently. But if you are a crossdresser and not going through transition as would a transsexual, then I can only assume you wore it because you like to underdress for the many various reasons that a crossdresser might feel right about it. I also assume you otherwise were presenting as a male. I don't blame any employer for not wanting a male to wear a bra under his male clothes and create discomfort among other employees, or worse yet, that employer's customers should your job require you to interact in person with them. I am a crossdresser and even I as an employer would ask you not to wear a bra under your male clothes where other employees or my customers and clients can be made uncomfortable around a man wearing a bra. Do as you wish, dress the way you wish, but not in the work place. I sometimes underdress in panties at work, but no one is ever going to see them, so that's different. I feel every employer has the right (or should have), to employee only those that represent the business in a professional manor. A man wearing a visible bra distracts not only other employees, but the potential loss of business to those that think it's weird, strange or some sort of sexual kink.
    I value my job, my being accepted by all employees, customers and the employer to much to risk wearing a bra or any other garment that can be detected easily. It is not considered acceptable behavior in our general society, so it is improper to wear a bra when at work and dressed as a man when your outer clothes is thin enough, see thru enough to let it show or see the outline of a bra. Any male that would do this is being very foolish in my opinion. Why do some of us think we have the right to force our kinks or lifestyle on others that don't like it or don't understand? Again, if you are a transitioning TS and the topic was discussed before hand with the employer, then and only then would I agree with all this lawyer and sue nonsense.
    I don't force my choice of clothes on anyone that may be offended or made to feel uncomfortable around me. Yes I do care what others think...sorry.
    If you can't be fired for wearing the bra, a smart employer can concoct other reasons to let you go. If you did not conform with my wishes as an employer, I know I would.

  20. #20
    Silver Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    4,675
    Yeah. I agree. Leave the darn bra at home. Is it really worth it? Why bother with all that animosity?

    Stephie

  21. #21
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    494
    Someone in the workplace makes unwelcome comments or questions about a workers underwear and the boss supports it, and people thinks its ok.
    This is exactly why the OP needs an attorney and a dated filed complaint to prove retaliation if fired at a later date.
    Its that or cower in the closet, other are no other options.

  22. #22
    New Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    19
    I'm sorry, but that's just nonsense.

    "OH GOD! THAT GUY IS WEARING A BRA! HOW WILL AAAAAANYBODY GET THERE WORK DONE!"

    But as was said before, if you don't really need it, there's no point in wearing it. The panties shouldn't be a problem.

  23. #23
    Banned Read only
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Lost in the ozone again
    Posts
    121
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanessa Storrs View Post
    Time to lawyer up. Call the ACLU and get their advice. Even if you have decided to take no action it is best to have this on the record in case. The company does something to you later. It appears that you have a strong case for harrasment, discrimination and a hostile work environment.
    Get real. Kansas is a right to work state. Kansas ain't California. This person will be sent packing and have no recourse whatsoever. Some woman says she was threatened, that's all it would take.
    Last edited by MissMarcie; 12-20-2011 at 10:54 PM.

  24. #24
    Swans have more fun! sandra-leigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Central Canada
    Posts
    7,322
    Quote Originally Posted by BRANDYJ View Post
    If you "need" a bra for support I might fell differently. But if you are a crossdresser and not going through transition as would a transsexual, then I can only assume you wore it because you like to underdress for the many various reasons that a crossdresser might feel right about it. [...] even I as an employer would ask you not to wear a bra under your male clothes where other employees or my customers and clients can be made uncomfortable around a man wearing a bra.
    Brandy,

    Let me think... My breasts are firm enough that I do not need a bra for support. And whether or not I am transsexual (possible, but not how I classify myself), I am not going through "transition".

    It would seem, then, from you posting, that if I wore a bra, it would be just because I "liked to", and that in your opinion I should refrain from doing so where my co-workers or clients might feel uncomfortable.

    I would suggest to you that my not wearing a bra is more disconcerting to the average person, seeing as without a bra, my shirts are tented visibly, showing what is clearly a bust. I would probably measure around 40A+ or so; in terms of volume, my bust is larger than my wife's 36B+ . Mine are "teenage boobs", conical and protruding, not rounded.

    When I wear a bra, the bra smooths down the cones and redistributes downward without providing any lift, thus hiding my bust. Fewer people are going to notice the bra outline than will notice the bra-less outline in my shirts.

    By the way, if you were my supervisor where I worked, and you were to ask me not to wear a bra, I would snicker and tell you to take it up with HR. I already checked with our HR, and the only clothing rule for us is that if we are doing a task for which there is safety equipment, we have to wear that equipment.

    One of our two HR people is a pretty and nubile woman with a penchant for showing her cleavage. Lord knows it is difficult for me to work with her without spending most of my time either looking at it or thinking about looking at her. HRT hasn't damped my enjoyment of such views one bit -- and, of course, I spend even more time studying out of envy or wishing I looked like that! Interferes with my doing my work, it does

  25. #25
    Silver Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Central NY
    Posts
    3,655
    Unless the person asking is a close friend, never ever answer a question like that. There are previous posts here about sexual harassment that shed light on this; even though she was the one who asked, given she is a woman I wouldn't hold one's breath that she would be the one to be bought up on charges.

    Could you *imagine* the hell and damnation that would come down on a man who complained to his boss that a female coworker (even a large breasted one) was not wearing a bra?

    Regardless, since the economy is plummeting towards oblivion and you probably need that job badly, I'd leave the bra at home and keep the job.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  


Check out these other hot web properties:
Catholic Personals | Jewish Personals | Millionaire Personals | Unsigned Artists | Crossdressing Relationship
BBW Personals | Latino Personals | Black Personals | Crossdresser Chat | Crossdressing QA
Biker Personals | CD Relationship | Crossdressing Dating | FTM Relationship | Dating | TG Relationship


The crossdressing community is one that needs to stick together and continue to be there for each other for whatever one needs.
We are always trying to improve the forum to better serve the crossdresser in all of us.

Browse Crossdressers By State