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Thread: A Hustle work place

  1. #26
    Junior Member Raychel Torn's Avatar
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    Several people have done a good job of outlining the law in your situation. But just to make it clear. You can not be found to have created a hostile work place by underdressing or otherwise expressing your sexuality in a way that is not aimed at others (underdressing clearly is not). Just because someone else is offended by your actions does not mean you have created an hostile work place. Point of fact, the complain and order for your to stop is a step moving in the direction of creating a hostile work place for you. So, even if your co-workers "feel violated" so long as you are only expressing your personal sexual identity in a way that is not directed at another person "YOU" are the person who is having hostility directed at them and YOUR rights are the ones being violated. I will bet my law degree on this one.
    Raychel

  2. #27
    Member LeannL's Avatar
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    Raychel,
    You are absolutely correct. I have been trying to convey the same. The question here is not if Missy is creating a hostile environment - she isn't. The question is if the courts would find what her boss and coworkers are creating one. Now, as has been pointed out, Kansas is not in the 11th circuit, however, at least three other circuits have concluded the same. The conclusion was based on Supreme Court ruling on Price Waterhouse which was discussed by the 11th circuit thusly:

    The question here is whether discriminating against someone on the basis of his or her gender non-conformity constitutes sex-based discrimination under the Equal Protection Clause. For the reasons discussed below, we hold that it does. In Price Waterhouse v. Hopkins, 490 U.S. 228 (1989), the Supreme Court held that discrimination on the basis of gender stereotype is sex-based discrimination. In that case, the Court considered allegations that a senior manager at Price Waterhouse was denied partnership in the firm because she was considered “macho,” and “overcompensated for being a woman.” Id. at 235. Six members of the Supreme Court agreed that such comments were indicative of gender discrimination and held that Title VII barred not just discrimination because of biological sex, but also gender stereotyping–failing to act and appear according to expectations defined by gender. Id. at 250-51 (plurality opinion); id. at 258-61 (White, J., concurring); id. at 272-73 (O'Connor, J., concurring). The Court noted that “[a]s for the legal relevance of sex stereotyping, we are beyond the day when an employer could evaluate employees by assuming or insisting that they matched the stereotypes associated with their group . . . .” Id. at 251.

    I read the above, and more importantly several appeals courts read it to include transgenderism.

    I agree with the suggestion that Missy see a professional to document her transgendered nature so that she is legally covered. I would also suggest she seek a conciliatory meeting with HR and either bring the documention or offer to bring it at a later date (seeing that you don't normally get such a letter until you need it, the wait would be expected.) We should all avoid litigation (unless you are a lawyer) but it always has to be the back up plan.

    Leann
    Leann

    Enjoy who you are but stay safe.

  3. #28
    Trouble.. Yep thats me Beth Mays's Avatar
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    I am a Teamster job steward, I wear nail polish, an ear ring and other items under my "Brown". My boss HATES these beyond words, BUT. not a damn thing he can do about them. I am out to a few guys thanks to my wife posting twice on my Facebook page, and to the women in the office by my choice.
    many states are an "employment at will" basically that says unless you CAN prove discrimination you can be let go at any time.
    Contract spells out what we can and can not do in many things, it also protects us from the BS just because management don't like it.
    I would first go to HR and ask for a written copy of the dress code, I would give a written account of what happen and ask HR to make a copy and sign both with the date and time. This one act will convey you mean business. as soon as you walk out of HR phones WILL start to ring.
    If you want to keep this job, don't give in now or they WILL find something to let you go for in a couple of weeks or a month. Should you ever be confronted by your boss/supervisor ever again, as soon as it starts respond " would you please just put it on paper for me. If you show you know your rights, you will get to keep your rights… give them up and they will never come back.

  4. #29
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    I'm sorry, but that's just nonsense.

    "OH GOD! THAT GUY IS WEARING A BRA! HOW WILL AAAAAANYBODY GET THERE WORK DONE!"

    But as was said before, if you don't really need it, there's no point in wearing it. The panties shouldn't be a problem.

  5. #30
    Swans have more fun! sandra-leigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRANDYJ View Post
    If you "need" a bra for support I might fell differently. But if you are a crossdresser and not going through transition as would a transsexual, then I can only assume you wore it because you like to underdress for the many various reasons that a crossdresser might feel right about it. [...] even I as an employer would ask you not to wear a bra under your male clothes where other employees or my customers and clients can be made uncomfortable around a man wearing a bra.
    Brandy,

    Let me think... My breasts are firm enough that I do not need a bra for support. And whether or not I am transsexual (possible, but not how I classify myself), I am not going through "transition".

    It would seem, then, from you posting, that if I wore a bra, it would be just because I "liked to", and that in your opinion I should refrain from doing so where my co-workers or clients might feel uncomfortable.

    I would suggest to you that my not wearing a bra is more disconcerting to the average person, seeing as without a bra, my shirts are tented visibly, showing what is clearly a bust. I would probably measure around 40A+ or so; in terms of volume, my bust is larger than my wife's 36B+ . Mine are "teenage boobs", conical and protruding, not rounded.

    When I wear a bra, the bra smooths down the cones and redistributes downward without providing any lift, thus hiding my bust. Fewer people are going to notice the bra outline than will notice the bra-less outline in my shirts.

    By the way, if you were my supervisor where I worked, and you were to ask me not to wear a bra, I would snicker and tell you to take it up with HR. I already checked with our HR, and the only clothing rule for us is that if we are doing a task for which there is safety equipment, we have to wear that equipment.

    One of our two HR people is a pretty and nubile woman with a penchant for showing her cleavage. Lord knows it is difficult for me to work with her without spending most of my time either looking at it or thinking about looking at her. HRT hasn't damped my enjoyment of such views one bit -- and, of course, I spend even more time studying out of envy or wishing I looked like that! Interferes with my doing my work, it does

  6. #31
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    Unless the person asking is a close friend, never ever answer a question like that. There are previous posts here about sexual harassment that shed light on this; even though she was the one who asked, given she is a woman I wouldn't hold one's breath that she would be the one to be bought up on charges.

    Could you *imagine* the hell and damnation that would come down on a man who complained to his boss that a female coworker (even a large breasted one) was not wearing a bra?

    Regardless, since the economy is plummeting towards oblivion and you probably need that job badly, I'd leave the bra at home and keep the job.

  7. #32
    Silver Member BRANDYJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandra-leigh View Post
    Brandy,

    Let me think... My breasts are firm enough that I do not need a bra for support. And whether or not I am transsexual (possible, but not how I classify myself), I am not going through "transition".

    It would seem, then, from you posting, that if I wore a bra, it would be just because I "liked to", and that in your opinion I should refrain from doing so where my co-workers or clients might feel uncomfortable.

    I would suggest to you that my not wearing a bra is more disconcerting to the average person, seeing as without a bra, my shirts are tented visibly, showing what is clearly a bust. I would probably measure around 40A+ or so; in terms of volume, my bust is larger than my wife's 36B+ . Mine are "teenage boobs", conical and protruding, not rounded.

    When I wear a bra, the bra smooths down the cones and redistributes downward without providing any lift, thus hiding my bust. Fewer people are going to notice the bra outline than will notice the bra-less outline in my shirts.

    By the way, if you were my supervisor where I worked, and you were to ask me not to wear a bra, I would snicker and tell you to take it up with HR. I already checked with our HR, and the only clothing rule for us is that if we are doing a task for which there is safety equipment, we have to wear that equipment.

    One of our two HR people is a pretty and nubile woman with a penchant for showing her cleavage. Lord knows it is difficult for me to work with her without spending most of my time either looking at it or thinking about looking at her. HRT hasn't damped my enjoyment of such views one bit -- and, of course, I spend even more time studying out of envy or wishing I looked like that! Interferes with my doing my work, it does
    In your case, from what you say, you do need to wear a bra to hide the protruding breasts. So you do have a reason without it being just for your pleasure. But if you want to hide the visable signs of the effects of HRT, I would think you have the good sense to wear something that will minimize the lines of your bra.

  8. #33
    Silver Member linda allen's Avatar
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    I have to wonder what kind of place you are working at where women can wear bras but men cannot. Is there a dress code and does it actually cover underwear?

    Does your boss reserve the right to force employees to undress so he (or she) can inspect their underwear?

    On the otherhand, sometimes, to get along at work and have the chance to be promoted or to not be the first one layed off, you have to "get along", so it might be best to leave the bra home for a while.
    [SIGPIC]http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=82706&dateline=137762 0356[/SIGPIC]Linda

  9. #34
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    Hello, Brandy. If I could ask you one question about your post, specifically this statement:

    Quote Originally Posted by BRANDYJ View Post
    If you can't be fired for wearing the bra, a smart employer can concoct other reasons to let you go. If you did not conform with my wishes as an employer, I know I would.
    I take it that you're saying that if you can't legally fire someone, you'd concoct a reason to do so. That is, you'd employ an artful dodge, so to speak, that would allow you to deny someone what is after all their legal right. Do you really think that's right?

    Best wishes, Annabelle.

  10. #35
    Silver Member linda allen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Annabelle Larousse View Post
    Hello, Brandy. If I could ask you one question about your post, specifically this statement:
    I take it that you're saying that if you can't legally fire someone, you'd concoct a reason to do so. That is, you'd employ an artful dodge, so to speak, that would allow you to deny someone what is after all their legal right. Do you really think that's right?.
    Different jobs have different circumstances and different states treat employee "rights" differently. Imagine this: I own a service company. Plumbing, electrical, appliance repair, something along these lines and I send my employees out to people's houses to do service work. It's not hard to imagine some of the customers being uncomfortable with a male technician dressed in female clothing, makeup, etc. And they may call and complain or they may just use another company the next time they need service.

    The employee may have a legal right to dress as a female, but if I allow him to, it will cost me business and possibly put me out of business. I'm going to have to either get him to dress as people expect or find a way to get rid of him to protect my business and the jobs of the other employees.
    [SIGPIC]http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=82706&dateline=137762 0356[/SIGPIC]Linda

  11. #36
    My name is Carol Julogden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by linda allen View Post
    Different jobs have different circumstances and different states treat employee "rights" differently. Imagine this: I own a service company. Plumbing, electrical, appliance repair, something along these lines and I send my employees out to people's houses to do service work. It's not hard to imagine some of the customers being uncomfortable with a male technician dressed in female clothing, makeup, etc. And they may call and complain or they may just use another company the next time they need service.

    The employee may have a legal right to dress as a female, but if I allow him to, it will cost me business and possibly put me out of business. I'm going to have to either get him to dress as people expect or find a way to get rid of him to protect my business and the jobs of the other employees.
    So what would you do if you had hired someone who was black or Hispanic or Asian and you started getting complaints from several customers who were racists, complaining that they didn't like having your employee in their homes and won't use your services anymore if you send black, Hispanic or Asian workers to their home? You start losing a significant amount of business. What would you do in that circumstance?

    Carol
    My name is Carol.

  12. #37
    Princess in the making SandraAbsent's Avatar
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    This is the second time in this forum tonight that I have posted something to the regards of taking into consideration the challenges we within the TG umbrella create for others by our actions.

    Yes you violated no law by under-dressing, yes you violated no law by admitting to it, but by not sitting down and having a logical discussion with your employer about this issue once the immediate shock is over and jumping on the "get a lawyer to defend my rights" wagon, you create an open door for further discrimination and/or humiliation. Sit down with your boss/HR and discuss this on a deeper level before going off half loaded. Document it, and only if no resolution is found should legal action be considered. This is the best way to protect yourself not only from discrimination or worse loss of income.

    I know I may be controversial by saying this, but when someone decides to under-dress or sneak dressing in on breaks (example), they are taking a huge risk. By most this peoples viewpoint this would be viewed differently than a situation where an out or discovered outside of work transsexual/transgender employee is discriminated against. I just spent the last month of my life coming out to my employers, co-workers, and clients. If I had just showed up one day in dress with no discussion, I would never feel that I had the right to not be scrutinized for this action.

    So here we go right? If something like this action does end up in court, the result is precious resources lost on both sides, and the side of the courts spent trying to resolve something that really comes down to a $10 garment. Can you live without that garment? If yes dont do it, and dont risk a tender legal situation that is being waged for those that are trying to gain serious legislation for the transgender community. If no, see a therapist to guide you through your gender issues so that you do not put yourself at risk emotionally, psychologically, or financially with your gender issues. Again please, please, please everyone! Consider how your actions weigh against others they may affect.
    Life inside the music box ain't easy
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  13. #38
    Silver Member BRANDYJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Annabelle Larousse View Post
    Hello, Brandy. If I could ask you one question about your post, specifically this statement:



    I take it that you're saying that if you can't legally fire someone, you'd concoct a reason to do so. That is, you'd employ an artful dodge, so to speak, that would allow you to deny someone what is after all their legal right. Do you really think that's right?

    Best wishes, Annabelle.

    Yes, that's what I'm saying IF any employee of mine was doing anything that would cuase a loss of business or disrupt the workl place in such a way that it hurt my buisiness.
    They may have a legal right to wear what they want. But If I was a business owner, I have a right to protect my business. That's all I hear is somebody's rights, ACLU, lawyers and suing. Common sense is lost. When any one person thinks their rights to ignore common sense mode of dress and make fellow employes and customers/clients uncomfortable and ruin the productivity and profitability of a business, then I am questioning where are therights of a business owner? Remember, we are talking about a crossdresser and NOT a transsexual. The wearing of a bra would be acceptable and normal for a transitioning TS that also presents as a female. But IO draw the line at a crossdresser wearing one just because he wants to flaunt his crossdressing activities to the worls at the work place.
    Like I said with my first response....may opinion would not be popular. But where is common sense, good taste and appropriate dress at work become a legal issue? So yes, If such a person that worked for me presenting as a male, other then his lack of self control and good taste felt the need to wear a bra that showed to fellow employess and my customers, he is out the door one way or the other.
    Don't forget, I am a crossdresser, but I damn sure have self control and better sense then to wear a bra and to hell with other's feelings about it in a business envirorment.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanessa Storrs View Post
    Time to lawyer up. Call the ACLU and get their advice. Even if you have decided to take no action it is best to have this on the record in case. The company does something to you later. It appears that you have a strong case for harrasment, discrimination and a hostile work environment.
    Get real. Kansas is a right to work state. Kansas ain't California. This person will be sent packing and have no recourse whatsoever. Some woman says she was threatened, that's all it would take.
    Last edited by MissMarcie; 12-20-2011 at 10:54 PM.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRANDYJ View Post
    Yes, that's what I'm saying IF any employee of mine was doing anything that would cuase a loss of business or disrupt the workl place in such a way that it hurt my buisiness.
    They may have a legal right to wear what they want. But If I was a business owner, I have a right to protect my business. That's all I hear is somebody's rights, ACLU, lawyers and suing. Common sense is lost. When any one person thinks their rights to ignore common sense mode of dress and make fellow employes and customers/clients uncomfortable and ruin the productivity and profitability of a business, then I am questioning where are therights of a business owner? Remember, we are talking about a crossdresser and NOT a transsexual. The wearing of a bra would be acceptable and normal for a transitioning TS that also presents as a female. But IO draw the line at a crossdresser wearing one just because he wants to flaunt his crossdressing activities to the worls at the work place.
    Like I said with my first response....may opinion would not be popular. But where is common sense, good taste and appropriate dress at work become a legal issue? So yes, If such a person that worked for me presenting as a male, other then his lack of self control and good taste felt the need to wear a bra that showed to fellow employess and my customers, he is out the door one way or the other.
    Don't forget, I am a crossdresser, but I damn sure have self control and better sense then to wear a bra and to hell with other's feelings about it in a business envirorment.
    Brandy, I understand your point of view. You're living in the real world, and so am I. You're concerned, e.g., with what your other employees and your clients and customers would feel about it. That I understand. But what I say is that at the end of the day someone's underwear isn't their business, either. Whatever their own personal feelings in the matter, they don't have the moral right to prevent someone else from doing something that's harmless in itself, simply because they themselves don't like it. This is the way minorities get controlled: I don't like it, therefore you can't do it. People need to be more accepting and tolerant. I understand that often we aren't. But if you were tell me, "You can't wear your clothes because my customers wouldn't like it," my question would be, "Well, what gives them the right to tell me how to dress?" I know as well as you do what people are like, but do I forever have to agree not to enjoy a legal right simply because other people don't want me to exercise it? I believe in common sense, too, but I believe in people being fair to each other.

    You've also said that we're talking about a crossdresser, not a transsexual, as if a crossdresser's need might be less than a transsexual's. I don't know that that's true. I'm not sure exactly what category I fall into, nor do I know how strong my need is compared to others', but I'd like to have the right to decide for myself rather than allowing someone else to decide for me.

    One problem with this whole discussion is that Missy has really given us very little information about the circumstances. You said, for example, something about "flaunting his crossdressing tendencies." We don't know that she was flaunting them. We don't know how visible her bra was. I myself quite often go out wearing a bra, but I certainly don't flaunt it. Quite the opposite. But that doesn't mean that a bra can't be discovered if something goes wrong. Anything you're wearing can be discovered, given the wrong circumstances. I'd like to know more about the circumstances of the case.

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