Pastor

[Rianna Humble]

What I don't get is why the very same girls that oppose a pastor's intervention have absolutely no problem with a therapist having a final say in whether one is transgendered or not. In fact, most girls here embrace the idea that all of us need a therapist.

What the heck is the difference?

Firstly, we are dealing with someone whose family has told her that she will go to hell for daring to believe that she is anything other than a heterosexual cisgendered male. They are the ones trying to get her to see the priest. I think that it is a fair bet that he will share their bigotry.

Secondly, no decent therapist will "have a final say in whether one is transgendered or not" but they (unlike the priest) are trained to empower the patient to work it out for themselves. The priest with (according to you) similar training will have been schooled in how to persuade his parishoner to toe the church's official line not in how to empower the parishioner to discover for his/her self.

I have no problem with anyone who wants to believe that another person is the authorised oracle for their chosen god and who goes to that person to seek the authorised answer to a religious dilemma. I do have a problem with someone being sent by people with closed minds to a person "in authority" to be persuaded of something about which that authority has no understanding.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

That's right rianna.... I don't know anyone here who has ever said that gatekeepers should make any decision for anyone..

Therapy is an empowerment tool. And It's a way to safely share information so that you can help yourself...

If you can't get what you wantout of therapy, that's on you, and you have to find your way somewhere else...many people get little or nothing out of therapy.

[LeaP]

I do have a problem with someone being sent by people with closed minds to a person "in authority" to be persuaded of something about which that authority has no understanding.

This was extraordinarily well-put, Rianna.

Lea

[Miranda-E]

What I don't get is why the very same girls that oppose a pastor's intervention have absolutely no problem with a therapist having a final say in whether one is transgendered or not. In fact, most girls here embrace the idea that all of us need a therapist.

What the heck is the difference? And before you say to yourself "but, a therapist is trained", I'll point out that most priests receive similar training.

The therapist doesn't say we are transgender. The therapist is a necessary evil for some legal aspects of transition because the system is still based in discrimination. The pastor isn't necessary.

[Beth-Lock]

The problem with this is that religions are based on tradition, and that means following the past. In the Bible, written so long ago, a lot of things were left out and a lot of things were written in the context of so long ago, when a lot was not known about such things. The church's detailed thinking on such things is only being done now.

I think you can predict what the pastor will say. If he goes by the old time religion and the Bible, only, it will not be too positive. If he accepts the new teachings, like some liberal churches, it should be okay.

[Aprilrain]

All I know is Eve was framed!

[kimdl93]

I'm all in favor of therapy, and have had my share. The point of therapy isn't to make a person accept some set of rules for behavior. Its not meant to make you "happy". Rather competent therapy is aimed at helping a person deal with his/her reality more effectively...its that simple.

With all due respect to clergy, evem the most highly educated clergy are NOT remotely qualified to offer counseling outside of their theological training...and that's not remotely relevant unless you're determined to live your life in accordance with the doctrine of your religion.

[Hope]

I've setup a meeting with my pastor to discuss why I believe it's ok to be trans. I'm nervous about admitting to my pastor that I want to be a woman, and I'm also nervous that he may turn around and tell me that it is wrong.

any advice you can give me about how to approach this, how to overcome the fear, maybe some scripture that can be used to justify being trans etc...

As a former pastor I can provide you with a little bit of guidance. Maybe. A lot of my colleagues always seemed to be twits.

The first thing I would suggest you do is get clear in your own mind what it is that you want from your pastor. Know why you are going to see him. From this post, I have no idea. Do you want his blessing? Do you want his help? Do you want his guidance? And with what? Make-up tips? Be explicit about your request, or you will be more likely to be met with resistance as your pastor tries to figure out what you want from him, and his worries about what you might want from him take over. If you are just going to out yourself, be prepared for a bad experience.

Second, don't try to proof-text the man. When parishioners would come into my office and try to educate me, I thought it was cute. Insulting, but cute. Well, more insulting than cute. Your pastor knows the scripture better than you do. WAY better. That is his job. And he already has formed his opinions about it. Don't go into the man's office and try to educate him. Particularly with a self-serving interpretation for a "deviant" "life-style" "choice." It will not end well.

It is WONDERFUL that you believe that it is OK to be trans. Though frankly you sound very tentative about it, like you are not yet sure. Is it OK to be trans, or do you just believe it is? Is it OK to be trans, or is it a mother fu(#ing gift from god that makes you special, magical, and wonderful? (when you know the latter to be true you will be ready to lock horns with your pastor, but ironically you will no longer need to). If you go into your pastor's office and sound like you need to be convinced... he will try to convince you.

With all due respect to clergy, evem the most highly educated clergy are NOT remotely qualified to offer counseling outside of their theological training...and that's not remotely relevant unless you're determined to live your life in accordance with the doctrine of your religion.

Well, with all due respect to your opinion... there are a surpassing number of pastors who (like myself) have degrees in psychology... and there are a surprising number who also have advanced training in psychology, and the various diagnostic and treatment modalities used in a clinical setting. They often work as pastoral counselors.

Now, admittedly, a LOT of pastors offer much more counseling than they are even remotely qualified to offer, but to suggest that "even the most highly educated clergy are NOT remotely qualified to offer counseling outside of their theological training..." is just ignorant ranting. Which is fine, just don't try to pass it off as an opinion formed in anything other than bias.

Quite honestly, the vast majority of seminary trained pastors are specialists in dealing with people and have loads of training with relationships. There are definitely issues that fall outside of the vast majority of pastor's area of expertise and knowledge, but most pastors are quite able to handle relationship issues... and know well enough to refer to others when they encounter something out of their depth.

I am not trying to defend pastors here, really, a lot of them are twits. I went to seminary and remain friends with several twits. But I do get annoyed when lay people, (or non-christians) most of whom have no idea what their pastor does all day, make grand proclamations about what their pastor can or can't do. Most lay people have no idea. Particularly considering what monumental, excusing work it is, work that requires an unusually large skill-set.

But then there is a HUGE difference between the well educated, well trained pastor of the local Episcopalian, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian church - and the guy who runs the Pentecostal tabernacle of Jezuz as well...

[Steph.TS]

As a former pastor I can provide you with a little bit of guidance. Maybe. A lot of my colleagues always seemed to be twits.

The first thing I would suggest you do is get clear in your own mind what it is that you want from your pastor. Know why you are going to see him. From this post, I have no idea. Do you want his blessing? Do you want his help? Do you want his guidance? And with what? Make-up tips? Be explicit about your request, or you will be more likely to be met with resistance as your pastor tries to figure out what you want from him, and his worries about what you might want from him take over. If you are just going to out yourself, be prepared for a bad experience.

Second, don't try to proof-text the man. When parishioners would come into my office and try to educate me, I thought it was cute. Insulting, but cute. Well, more insulting than cute. Your pastor knows the scripture better than you do. WAY better. That is his job. And he already has formed his opinions about it. Don't go into the man's office and try to educate him. Particularly with a self-serving interpretation for a "deviant" "life-style" "choice." It will not end well.

It is WONDERFUL that you believe that it is OK to be trans. Though frankly you sound very tentative about it, like you are not yet sure. Is it OK to be trans, or do you just believe it is? Is it OK to be trans, or is it a mother fu(#ing gift from god that makes you special, magical, and wonderful? (when you know the latter to be true you will be ready to lock horns with your pastor, but ironically you will no longer need to). If you go into your pastor's office and sound like you need to be convinced... he will try to convince you.

I want him to confirm my belief that the Bible is ok with being trans (though I like the idea it could be a gift as well), using scripture as doctrinal proof. I'm confused, I'm going in question the question is it ok, so confidence isn't super high, I'm not to try educating him, how am I supposed to do this? how should i approach him? what questions can I ask? I don't want to upset him, I'm looking for answers to a difficult question, one that my family has thier mind made up on.

I thought showing what the original language had said in Deu 22:5 and 1 Cor. 6:9 would pop the bubble that it was wrong and them show what Jesus said in Matthew 19:12 to show that It's not a sin, but you're right if I challence his beliefs to something he's not open to being challenged, then it'll turn ugly

[Aprilrain]

IMO you are setting your self up for failure, though if you need your families approval BEFORE you can move forward with transition you have already failed and involving the pastor won't matter one way or the other. If you are confident in who you are and make the effort on your own in time your family may come around but if your families particular flavor of christianity is fundamentalist I wouldn't count on it.

[pj]

I'm looking for answers to a difficult question...

You aren't going to find it in that book.

Really, there is no difficult question. What's difficult is your acceptance of who you are. I am an atheist, have been since I was old enough to question and reason, but I struggled for a long time with the same thing; self acceptance. It doesn't have anything to do with religion.

That your (or anyone's) family uses religion as a weapon against you is sad and tragic. I wish I had something hopeful and empowering to say to you, but you're playing in a rigged game. I don't see any way to win.

[Melody Moore]

What the heck is the difference? And before you say to yourself "but, a therapist is trained", I'll point out that most priests receive similar training.

What a load of Rubbish!

If Priests received similar training, then we wouldn't need psychologist, but as it turns out we NEED psychologists
to sort out the mess the priests create when they try and take on the role of a psychologist. And I went through
this myself. I was born intersex and was treated my whole life basically by priests who though they could cure me
of my 'sickness'. Reparative Therapy is nothing short of brainwashing and has pushed more people to suicide than
it has helped anyone. So please - comparing a priest to a psychologist is like comparing an onion to an apple.

[Cindi Johnson]

Sorry Melody, I didn't realize you were an expert on seminary training. How many priests do you know? Rubbish is a strong word. I suspect most Catholic priests would differ with you as to the training they receive.

And by the way, "we" don't need psychologists (nor therapists). Speaking for myself, I fully accept the fact that I'm transgendered, and that I have been since day one. I fully accept the complications this has caused me over the years (and there were many). I accept the heartache I've known, the hurt my wife felt, the discomfort my son may have felt. Other than that, if anyone has a problem with me being TG, well, isn't that their problem? It's not mine. But to be honest, I haven't encountered many who seem to care, and I've been out and about as a girl in this world almost daily, for years.

Kim says that "competent therapy is aimed at helping a person deal with his/her reality more effectively...it's that simple." Well. at this stage in my life I do not need anyone to help me accept my reality. And I should be required to pay this therapist $100 an hour for this help? Please!

I do not need a therapist to hold my hand. I simply need a prescription for hormones. This should be a decision made by my physician, not a therapist.

Therapy is great if one is not coerced into it. So many of you believe I, and every transgendered girl, must go through therapy. Can't have hormones without therapy. Can't have SRS without therapy. Therapy, Therapy, Therapy. Yes, a therapist can be our best friend and supporter, yes indeed (as long as you hand him that $100 each hour).

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Actually cindi it sure looks like you could use some therapy. What does your hatred of therapy have to do with stephs trip to the pastor..why did u inject your issues with therapy into this...

[Bree-asaurus]

Sorry Melody, I didn't realize you were an expert on seminary training. How many priests do you know? Rubbish is a strong word. I suspect most Catholic priests would differ with you as to the training they receive.

And by the way, "we" don't need psychologists (nor therapists). Speaking for myself, I fully accept the fact that I'm transgendered, and that I have been since day one. I fully accept the complications this has caused me over the years (and there were many). I accept the heartache I've known, the hurt my wife felt, the discomfort my son may have felt. Other than that, if anyone has a problem with me being TG, well, isn't that their problem? It's not mine. But to be honest, I haven't encountered many who seem to care, and I've been out and about as a girl in this world almost daily, for years.

Kim says that "competent therapy is aimed at helping a person deal with his/her reality more effectively...it's that simple." Well. at this stage in my life I do not need anyone to help me accept my reality. And I should be required to pay this therapist $100 an hour for this help? Please!

I do not need a therapist to hold my hand. I simply need a prescription for hormones. This should be a decision made by my physician, not a therapist.

Therapy is great if one is not coerced into it. So many of you believe I, and every transgendered girl, must go through therapy. Can't have hormones without therapy. Can't have SRS without therapy. Therapy, Therapy, Therapy. Yes, a therapist can be our best friend and supporter, yes indeed (as long as you hand him that $100 each hour).

Keep in mind that not everyone is as anti-therapist as you are.

Some of us are still alive thanks to our amazing therapists that really have helped us deal with our issues.

EDIT: And since you HAD to inject how much therapy CAN cost...... my therapist saw the last time at NO COST.

[Badtranny]

Cindi, I don't have an argument for you, but I am curious about the tone of your post. Why do you have such a distaste for therapists? Sometimes people need a completely objective viewpoint and a perspective that is completely different than our own. Anyone who is presently in your life does not meet these criteria. The very fact that you're paying this person means that they have no interest in any outcome one way or another. They are paid to listen and reflect back what you are saying with no bias and no agenda. What's so bad about that? If you don't need it, than that's wonderful. Some of us however were extremely unsure about what to do about our feelings. I personally had a very difficult time accepting my reality, and having a therapist frame my feelings and help me put some of the pieces together was worth every penny.

There's quite a few people on this very board who could use a few dozen hours of therapy if you ask me.

[Bree-asaurus]

There's quite a few people on this very board who could use a few dozen hours of therapy if you ask me.

I agree. I've seen a number of people here that are super anti-therapy. I don't know if it's from a bad experience or some preconceived notion that therapists are bad... but therapy has been an integral part of many people's lives...

The therapist I go to is my first therapist. I did the research to find one that was recommended by people in my situation. He actually cares about the people he treats; he specializes in gender issues and goes out of his way to help us. Maybe he is a rare gem, but I think it's more likely that some people just don't take the time to find a good therapist... and if one is bad, they're all bad, right? And if you have the crazy idea that you don't need a therapist, but have never been to one, that you don't need one and nobody needs one... *sigh*

If I can find an amazing therapist in the heart of Texas, anyone here (in a city of decent size) can find a good therapist if they take the time to look for one.

[Hephaestus]

Assuming you are trans and need to transition... What happens if your pastor says that no, it's not ok according to the bible, or to the church... what then? Do you sweep your feelings under the rug, and burn your female clothes, and try to play the part of a good man the rest of your life? Just some food for thought... I'm no longer a Christian, and haven't been in years, so I can't speak to how I justified it... it was just who I am and what I needed to do, so I went for it, and damn anyone who would tell me I was wrong about myself. ...Going on what I used to believe back in the day (take this with a pillar of salt since obviously I've lost my Christianity) seems like even if God would consider it somewhat sinful for whatever reason, I don't think it'd be enough to damn you if you were otherwise a good Christian, following all the rituals and tithing and what-not.

Good luck, in any case, I will parrot most everyone else and say this seems like it's doomed to reap bad results in the worst case, and in the best case probably just not accomplish anything... Like trying to convince a member of Westboro baptist that homosexual people are great.

[Steph.TS]

Assuming you are trans and need to transition... What happens if your pastor says that no, it's not ok according to the bible, or to the church... what then? Do you sweep your feelings under the rug, and burn your female clothes, and try to play the part of a good man the rest of your life? Just some food for thought... I'm no longer a Christian, and haven't been in years, so I can't speak to how I justified it... it was just who I am and what I needed to do, so I went for it, and damn anyone who would tell me I was wrong about myself. ...Going on what I used to believe back in the day (take this with a pillar of salt since obviously I've lost my Christianity) seems like even if God would consider it somewhat sinful for whatever reason, I don't think it'd be enough to damn you if you were otherwise a good Christian, following all the rituals and tithing and what-not.

Good luck, in any case, I will parrot most everyone else and say this seems like it's doomed to reap bad results in the worst case, and in the best case probably just not accomplish anything... Like trying to convince a member of Westboro baptist that homosexual people are great.

if he shows scripture that tells me I'm SOL, then I'll try to live as a man, but if he just says no without scripture or something weak, then I'll probably continue moving forward. just depends on how it's handled. regardless I'll talk to my therapist about it and that'll help me know what I should do next as well.

[Miranda-E]

if he shows scripture that tells me I'm SOL, then I'll try to live as a man,

Wow, just wow. Are you serious about that or just pulling our leg?

[DanaR]

if he shows scripture that tells me I'm SOL, then I'll try to live as a man, but if he just says no without scripture or something weak, then I'll probably continue moving forward. just depends on how it's handled. regardless I'll talk to my therapist about it and that'll help me know what I should do next as well.

It sounds like you are going to see if you'll get his blessing; which I think that you'll be disappointed.

I think that the results here are predicable. You would be better off just trying to come up with a solution from your therapist.

[Steph.TS]

Wow, just wow. Are you serious about that or just pulling our leg?

serious, it depends on how serious the Bible attacks it (if it attacks it) I'm confident that I'm right in my interpretation, but if I go through with transition without getting confirmation of my interpretation, it'll always be in the back of my mind. worrying if my mom was right. I want peace most of all how can I have peace if I'm actively going against God? I say God not my pastor and not my church, I will be heart broken if thing go south believe me, but I honestly believe strongly that I'm right and I'm going to need him to hit me with some hard scriptures to show me I'm wrong.

[noeleena]

Hi, Steph ,

I belive this will help you far more .

Millton Diamond

Sex & Gender ;Same or Different ?.

diamond@hawaii,edu

phone 808 956 7400

fax 808 956 9481

http//ts-si.org/files/DiamondSexAndGenderSameDifferent.pdf-

hope this helps , this will do far more for you in the long term.

...noeleena...

[LeaP]

Hi, Steph ,

I belive this will help you far more .

Millton Diamond

Sex & Gender ;Same or Different ?.

diamond@hawaii,edu

phone 808 956 7400

fax 808 956 9481

http//ts-si.org/files/DiamondSexAndGenderSameDifferent.pdf-

hope this helps , this will do far more for you in the long term.

...noeleena...

Try this URL instead:

http://ts-si.org/files/DiamondSexAnd...eDifferent.pdf

Lea

[Kelsy]

Hi Steph

I respect your need to be sure of where you stand with regards to scripture but what you’re going to get is someone else’s interpretation of what the bible says. God is no respecter of men He does not look at the outer man but at your heart. If you receive condemnation from this pastor or the church members then they are the ones in danger not you! If your transsexuality became so unmanageable and God forbid you committed suicide would they condemn you for that too? I have a question would it be a problem to just live the rest of your life as a man? If you answer no then that’s what you should do, If you answer yes then what will your life be like? None of this is easy and if you’re looking for approval you are in the wrong game. There may not be any approval I hope you are prepared for that!
I am truly sorry for the struggle you are in – You are not alone and there is hope!
Kelsy