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Thread: Crossdresser Going Into the Army

  1. #51
    Just A Simple Girl Michelle.M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pythos View Post
    DADT repeal should also cover CDs.
    Maybe it should, but unfortunately it does not. That TG discrimination is based in homophobia may be debatable (not by me, I think you have a point) is irrelevant at this time. The US military simply has not progressed that far. And as some of the other posts in the thread have stated, those countries wherein there is supposedly TS tolerance in the military still have a long way to go as well.
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  2. #52
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    I'll concede that it is in the regulation. That said, I have never heard of it being asked. The same paragraph also mentions exhibitionism and voyeurism, which could cover girls who flash their breasts at a concert or during Mardi Gras and people who look at porn. The other key is that in the military, you are not allowed to self diagnose. Unless a doctor declares you to have the condition, you don't have it and thus don't have to disclose it. This is why I don't have hay fever, but am very allergic to grass, pollen, etc. Note also that they never ask if a candidate has performed or received oral sex, or participated in any position other than the missionary position, all of which are illegal under the UCMJ. Like Article 134, these things exist as avenues for the easy removal of problem people.
    Last edited by AngieCD; 12-26-2011 at 09:57 PM. Reason: More info

  3. #53
    Member Jeninus's Avatar
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    They'll Probably Find You Out

    I was in the Military Intelligence in the Army. One of MI's major responsibilities was conducting background investigations with respect to requests for security clearances and periodic re-investigations of those with security clearances. Almost every sensitive job in the military requires security clearances. Whether you think they are necessary or not -- the military certainly does. And if you try to avoid a position that requires a security clearance you will only shine a spotlight on yourself and trigger a background investigation.

    You mention that your family and fraternity brothers are aware of your CD past. You can rest assured, that at some point in your military career one or more of them will be interviewed under oath. The chance that you will be able to close out your career in the military successfully - even should you 100% repress it during your time (and you have indicated that that is not your plan) - is slim to none. When it comes out, as it undoubtedly will, you will end up being dishonorably discharged and find your life in ruins. You, my friend, are playing with a form of fire you can't even begin to understand. Just don't do it The intelligence services are far more capable than you may think.

    When I went into the military I also 100% repressed it, but unlike you, no one in the world knew about it before I went in. I had to go in because it was the era when everyone served after their 2-S deferment ran out who didn't either dodge the draft, get married or became a teacher (all forms of dodging, in my opinion). Listen to and heed the advice of your sisters in spirit here who have been through that mill.

  4. #54
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    half the crew on both ships I was on( Vietnam) had panties in their locker, we were saving souvineers and wore them back to the ship!!!

  5. #55
    W.Y.S.I.W.Y.G. Jason+'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AngieCD View Post
    I'll concede that it is in the regulation. That said, I have never heard of it being asked. The same paragraph also mentions exhibitionism and voyeurism, which could cover girls who flash their breasts at a concert or during Mardi Gras and people who look at porn. The other key is that in the military, you are not allowed to self diagnose. Unless a doctor declares you to have the condition, you don't have it and thus don't have to disclose it. This is why I don't have hay fever, but am very allergic to grass, pollen, etc. Note also that they never ask if a candidate has performed or received oral sex, or participated in any position other than the missionary position, all of which are illegal under the UCMJ. Like Article 134, these things exist as avenues for the easy removal of problem people.

    http://www.okdiversity.com/genderbenders/cia.html (A little dated but still relevant to the issue of security clearances.)

    Transvestism is similar to homosexuality in that it is not illegal, and there is no empirical evidence that transvestites are, by nature, less trustworthy or loyal than other persons. Cross-dressing, by itself and in all circumstances, does not necessarily indicate poor judgment, unreliability, irresponsibility or emotional instability, although these disqualifying characteristics will he present in some cases. There is strong evidence that many cross-dressers lead successful lives with a high degree of personal and professional achievement. Each individual should be considered on a case-by-case basis. Appropriate medical authorities should determine whether there are other associated emotional problems or evidence of a progression toward other sexual disorders such as fetishism or transsexualism.

    The DCID 1/14 criteria that may apply to some cases of transvestism are the public nature of the behavior and susceptibility to blackmail or coercion. Going out in public dressed as a woman may indicate lack of discretion and would be an aggravating circumstance that may justify disqualification. Concealment of current cross-dressing behavior may indicate susceptibility to pressure. Admission of cross-dressing during a security interview may eliminate some of this susceptibility but is discouraged by the sanctions associated with current personnel security policies.
    With all of that said or at least quoted, I served 20 years Navy the last 10 of which most people knew or at the least had an idea. Other than buried in the medical regulations which were an eye opener to read today I didn't know there was a direct prohibition against being a transvestite. I also know there isn't a regulation that says you can express yourself how you see fit. That leaves it up to a command to interpret what the regulation really says you can and can't do and whether or not they should enforce what they understand the rule to be.

    The act itself doesn't have to be wrong, it just has to catch the attention of someone with the clout to push the issue. Article 134 the general article works as well as the rubber stamp "conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline." I can't say for sure if I was just lucky enough not to cross the wrong person or just not a squeaky enough wheel otherwise.
    "You are not an accident, nor are you malfunctioning. You are performing EXACTLY as coded." For many "Man in a Dress" is the worst atrocity commit-able; for me it's just reality. Click to Learn About Me. Click to Complain About Me! There is a fine line between brutal honesty and honest brutality. It is rarely in the same place for the sender and the receiver.

  6. #56
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    ak88gurl, I don't get it. Why ask, if you don't take the advice. The agony of worrying about getting caught will take the joy of serving away. Yes there are CDs in the military. I can assure you that being busted out for a less than desirable discharge is not something you want to experience. I've seen people before that were determined that they could do it anyway. I've seen the prices they paid.

    It is obvious to me that you have no concept of what the NSA can correlate and identify. Secondly, what if you do get an assignment that requires a security clearance. When the FBI shows up at your fraternity and asks questions they don't tell anyone why.

    You say you won't dress if need be, it doesn't matter. The military not only cares about now. They care about the past and the future.

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    Beyond the ramifications of being caught by your Army peers and superiors, there are additional things to think about. If you are stationed anywhere close to areas where there are concentrations of muslims or islamic peoples, you need to keep in mind that in their culture and religion, CDing is an offense punishable by imprisonment or even death. They are very strict when it comes to issues like that. So even if you were to go away from your duty post location, you may not be safe when dressed in many areas of the world, particularly the Middle East.

    One other thing, if you think you can keep a stash hidden anywhere on a military installation, forget it. They will find it. Don't even think about it.
    Last edited by Dana7; 12-27-2011 at 02:21 AM.

  8. #58
    Junior Member ak88gurl's Avatar
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    Ok, I'm getting a lot of good advice here and am really getting something out of this. Having said that, I am trying to be respectful of people, but STRONGLY feel that crossdressers who are currently or have recently served have the most authority on this subject. I think that's understandable, and some of the stuff on here at times has felt both condescending to me and at the same time contradicting of what those currently in have had to say. Anyway, I feel I'm getting a great deal of good information here, but for those of you inclined to question my intelligence and sanity in bold print, I have actually been thinking this through thoroughly, and if you're going to respond to me this way without any experience with the modern military, then I am somewhat inclined to be a bit more dismissive.

    I'm starting to possibly reconsider MOS rather than go for a TS clearance because of what a few on the thread and in PMs to me have said. I already have had a security clearance for a couple years because of ROTC and retain it going in. I'm a disenrolled cadet btw, so besides a very big and genuine desire to serve being a part of who I am as a person, I AM going to be going in because I am already obligated. It's not worth trying to dissuade me to enlist, also having gone through some military training already with ROTC (albeit nothing quite as intensive as once I'm actually in) and as someone with friends in all branches of service, quite a few in SOF actually, I do actually have some idea what I'm getting into, I am not stupid, and I am not insane, and if you're reading my posts you'll see I am not contemplating any CDing on base much less in a Muslim country (again, burqas aren't my style anyway....)

    Quote Originally Posted by TxKimberly View Post
    Security clearance - that does have the potential to be a significant problem for you. When I was in the Army and worked on a nuclear missile with a top secret clearance, it was before the internet became a household thing. I have NO idea what they might be able to discover about you through the internet. For example, I have no idea if they have some way to find your account here if you dont volunteer the information to them. Honestly I doubt very much that they can, at least not without a great deal of effort that I find it hard to imagine them going through without a compelling reason to do so. I also have the worry in the back of my head as to what some of your former ROTC peers might say if and when they are interviewed as part of a security clearance background investigation. Are they going to feel obligated to share that information with the investigator? Are some of them active duty now, and might they not feel compelled by their own ethics and oath to tell this to an investigator?
    I might avoid going for a TS clearance, but I'm not worried about ROTC peers or any peers giving up information. Not all of my close friends know, in fact most don't, but most of my fraternity brothers know because their attitudes really are very chill with this type of thing. Only told three people from ROTC, all three of them frat brothers (and amongst my closest brothers). I think one of them, who's now an infantry LT in Afghanistan, had the coolest reaction of anyone I've ever told about it, saying, "I watch kids cartoons, play with action figures, and have crossdressed no less than 5 times. I'm no one to cast judgement on you, and besides, Eddie Izzard is my favorite comedian." He did go onto say, "I say this because I love you as my brother and care about your safety, don't ever get outted to anyone in the Army," and that's advice I have always had the intention of taking. But pretty much everyone in my frat including the other two guys from ROTC now in the Army had similar attitudes, and I can't imagine them volunteering this information about me to anyone. Still, since it does sound like they go awfully deep for the TS security clearances and I have profiles on this forum for Alexis and a private one on Facebook, I think it would be pretty hard for them to trace anything over to that stuff, but I'm seriously considering different MOS's from the ones I wanted that would require TS clearances.
    Last edited by ak88gurl; 12-27-2011 at 04:09 AM. Reason: grammar and typos

  9. #59
    Princess in the making SandraAbsent's Avatar
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    Anyway, I feel I'm getting a great deal of good information here, but for those of you inclined to question my intelligence and sanity in bold print, I have actually been thinking this through thoroughly, and if you're going to respond to me this way without any experience with the modern military, then I am somewhat inclined to be a bit more dismissive.
    I simply wanted to emphasize my point. Lack of experience in the modern military has nothing to do with lack of knowledge on the matter, nor does it have anything to do with of experience in modern transgender issues which is something I feel you are not even remotely taking into consideration. Queer, crossdresser, transsexual or whatever, there are real issues and implications out there that I don't think you have even given consideration that could seriously harm you physically, emotionally, and/or mentally. It matters not what your background is, your rank, how you got there, and what your clearance is. Every single one of your posts has been regarding one question. How do I manage being a crossdresser while serving my active duty. More importantly the theme seems to be how do I get away with it? Don't agree with me? Read through your own posts. This simple answer is you don't. The long answer is that you do if you always want the fear of being discovered. The consequences of which will lead to at best dishonorable discharge and at worst death. Still don't believe me on the death thing? Read the TDOR lists, and just a reminder that on TDOR we only put an emphasis on those killed for falling under the transgender umbrella this does not include the 1000s that are beaten and injured every year. You rely on never outing yourself, your friends never outing you, your family never outing you, and the digital trail you leave behind you never outing you. If you are prepared to completely abandon this aspect of your life for the next several years, maybe you will be safe. If you are not prepared to completely abandon it, be prepared for the fact that there may be consequences. Maybe I used bold letters, because I just don't see you thinking this way.

    I was not challenging your intelligence, nor your sanity. I was challenging you to think about more deeply the dangers your actions past, present, and future may present for you in the environment you are putting yourself in. I was challenging you to change your attitude to one that is a little less concerned about your military service to one that is a little more protective of your own personal safety. I understand you completely when you say that you feel compelled to serve your country and respect you immensely for that. I would never even consider trying to convince otherwise. I beg you to consider that while you are in the military you are going to have to be more careful about this issue than anything else you may have to deal with. Whatever you do Please Please don't be carefree. It may have worked for you in college and in your frat, but once you leave that world things become different in a hurry.
    Last edited by SandraAbsent; 12-27-2011 at 11:22 AM.
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  10. #60
    Living in CD Heaven Helen Grandeis's Avatar
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    I echo the advice. Tell no one! Never use DOD computers for CD related browsing / posting. Keep your stuff off base and don't show or tell anyone. Conduct unbecoming is still a real offense. Although people may now be openly gay and serve, they still must present in the conventional manner in all public places. The military owns you 24-7. The rules of evidence are not the same for non-judicial punishment. Thank-you for your service.
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  11. #61
    One Perky Goth Gurl Pythos's Avatar
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    Can anyone answer the question...why is Cding prohibited by our military? I feel this may be the basis of much of the crap I have to deal with in Aviation considering that many of those in that are are EX military.

    I really want to know why CDing is so frowned upon in the manner it is?

    IT SHOULD NOT BE IN the regulations any more than the sexual position you desire, or the type of sex you have!!! Or what make car you prefer? What brand coffee you desire. What the hell? This sort of thing is what should be sent to whistle blower groups like the infamous Wiki-leaks. These regulations seem to have within them clear violations of the constitution of the very country the members over which they rule, serve, sometimes with their lives. Not only that, but this could also be the reason such things like Trans Phobia, as well as Homophobia, and many other forms of Bigotry still exist in our society, seeing how many people serve in the military at least once in their lives.

    It sounds like just like the FAA there are some rules and regulations that have not caught up with the times. (ex: "Do not taxi faster than a man can walk." This is NEVER done, and can easily be observed at any airport, but there is a reg that says every single pilot out there is in violation of said reg.)

    Maybe if this crap were exposed, there would be a rucus, and then those regs would evaporate like the pieces of filth they are.
    Last edited by Pythos; 12-27-2011 at 01:03 PM.
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  12. #62
    Junior Member ak88gurl's Avatar
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    lol, okay.... Sandra, go back to your first post to me on this thread, and just tell me again that you didn't challenge my sanity. You directly questioned my sanity in BIG BOLD LETTERS....

    I didn't grow up in a military family but still with friends in all branches of the service and have actually gotten some taste of how the military works through almost 3 years with ROTC and going through some training with that. I'm going to have to agree with posts from previous people like McKailah and AngieCD that basically those with experience with the modern military are most of all the people who should be telling me how it works, because frankly while I don't have the experience they have in the military (which is why I'm looking for their opinions), it is painfully obvious to me on here sometimes when someone doesn't know much about the modern military. I appreciate your concern, but not your input for lack of ability to contribute to this. The clearance, for example, is one of the concerns, and if you don't think it does then you're not even paying much attention to what we're talking about.

    There's a lot of well-founded concern on here, but frankly I am only listening at this point to advice from those who have served, and have gotten good advice which I am actually putting to use such as that echoed just now my Helen. I'm also greatly appreciative not only to a few on here who have posted, but a few who have been serving for a long time and are still doing so who chose to private message me.

  13. #63
    Junior Member ak88gurl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pythos View Post
    IT SHOULD NOT BE IN the regulations any more than the sexual position you desire, or the type of sex you have!!!
    It's funny you should mention that, because as I think somebody else pointed out, the UCMJ also specifically prohibits oral sex and sex in anything but the missionary position. Some things in there are comical and.... pretty much dismissed. Crossdressing, isn't so much, but I've talked to enough CDs currently in who have actually been seen or outed and are still serving, to know that sometimes the people in charge really don't care if you don't bother them with it. Don't take me saying that as me saying that it can't be very dangerous and thus something I'm going to be careful not to get caught with, but yeah.

    The reason it's frowned on is people just don't have exposure to it I think frankly. Gays have movies, sitcoms, etc. CDs have Eddie Izzard, who is definitely one of my heroes and I think has actually moved the ball forward quite a bit for people like us. If I weren't going in the military, or maybe someday after I'm out of the military, it's possible I would get involved in some kind of activism with this.

  14. #64
    Princess in the making SandraAbsent's Avatar
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    Lol and still you don't get it, your worries are about the wrong things! Best of luck to you
    Last edited by SandraAbsent; 12-27-2011 at 03:33 PM.
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  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pythos View Post
    Can anyone answer the question...why is Cding prohibited by our military? I feel this may be the basis of much of the crap I have to deal with in Aviation considering that many of those in that are are EX military.I really want to know why CDing is so frowned upon in the manner it is?
    Because they consider it a deviant activity? What difference does it make? You play by their rules. end of story.

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    I feel like a broken record here. Does that date me?

    Don't think for a minute that your activities will not come out. And the consequences of that information coming out range from nothing to your own death.

    If you can''t put your crossdressing activities on hold for the time of your enlistment then don't enlist. Simple. Clear. To the point.

    Or do so and take responsibility for your actions. You have explained several times in great detail just how you plan to keep your hobby under wraps. Others have advised you several times also in great detail how this is unlikely to occur.

    I told you I thought your were dreaming. Dream on dear. Why did you ever ask for advice you have no intention of heeding.

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  17. #67
    One Perky Goth Gurl Pythos's Avatar
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    It used to be their rules as well as societies that blacks sit in the back of the bus, and drink from seperate fountains. Just because they have such rules does not make it that one cannot question. Your stance is a bright example of why such stupid rules THAT WE SUPPORT WITH OUR TAX DOLLARS, are perpetuated.
    "I am not altogether on anyone's side as no one is all together on my side"
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  18. #68
    Just A Simple Girl Michelle.M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ak88gurl View Post
    . . . as I think somebody else pointed out, the UCMJ also specifically prohibits oral sex and sex in anything but the missionary position.
    Um, that's not quite true. Yes, the UCMJ (Article 125) prohibits sodomy (I'd say that includes oral sex) but there's nothing anywhere about what sex positions are permitted. That part has urban legend written all over it.

    The UCMJ was passed by Congress on 5 May 1950, signed into law by President Harry S. Truman, and became effective on 31 May 1951. At that time things like oral sex between consenting heterosexual adults was a big taboo and not discussed (although certainly practiced). The sodomy prohibition was included to address sexual assaults that may or may not also include intercourse. Thus, if a sexual assault was committed a servicemember would not be able to avoid prosecution if he had "only" forced the victim to give him oral sex. it is only in this context that I have seen sodomy prosecuted in my decades-long military career.

    http://www.ucmj.us/

    Quote Originally Posted by ak88gurl View Post
    The reason it's frowned on is people just don't have exposure to it I think frankly.
    I wish it were that simple. Even among civilian mental health professionals it's a rather recent notion that cross dressing is nothing more than just another valid form of expression and altogether harmless. When it comes to that sort of thing the military is behind the times and will eventually catch up, but for now it's still listed as a psychiatric paraphilia. That's why it's currently prohibited.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pythos View Post
    Your stance is a bright example of why such stupid rules THAT WE SUPPORT WITH OUR TAX DOLLARS, are perpetuated.
    Your passion for this issue is commendable, but it makes me wonder if you're so passionate that you'd consider joining the military and challenging this issue head-on from within with your own blood, sweat and tears? Your opinion will sound much more credible when you're willing to stand beside those in the trenches instead of calling the plays from the sidelines.
    I've gone to find myself. If I should return before I get back keep me here to wait for me so I don't go back out and miss myself when I return.

  19. #69
    Junior Member Jamie2's Avatar
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    I feel that I must comment here,,
    When I was in the service, It was not discussed by/or/ with ANYONE!!!!
    I cant tell you of the times I was approched at different airports arround the world
    by other people,(you give hints allways), to "go somewhere private". Now mind you this was in UNIFORM, (me).
    I recognized 1 guy as I had seen him doing inspections on other posts, So I was forewarned.
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  20. #70
    Member Crysten's Avatar
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    Want a really good pointer? Prove to everyone that matters that you are an exceptional soldier
    ... a soldier that knows his stuff, takes care of business, and is an assett to the army. That way if anything does come up youll have all the right people in your corner. Remember, with very few exceptions you can pretty much get a waiver for anything ... And i dressed continuously my entire 20+ year career ...
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  21. #71
    One Perky Goth Gurl Pythos's Avatar
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    Your passion for this issue is commendable, but it makes me wonder if you're so passionate that you'd consider joining the military and challenging this issue head-on from within with your own blood, sweat and tears? Your opinion will sound much more credible when you're willing to stand beside those in the trenches instead of calling the plays from the sidelines.
    Well there are two things working against me. 1) age. I am just beyond the age to join. 2) I am an open cross dresser in most of my life. The exceptions being, my family, as well as aviation. Because of this I am not able to join the military, and as I said, would not want to due to how our fighting men and women are being treated currently.

    That being said. This should NOT have to be "from within, with your own sweat and blood" It is a disgrace that such wanton bigotry is a part of our military. As was noted this was signed in the 50s. Well perhaps it should be gone over and have all such bigotry removed.

    Want a really good pointer? Prove to everyone that matters that you are an exceptional soldier
    ... a soldier that knows his stuff, takes care of business, and is an assett to the army. That way if anything does come up youll have all the right people in your corner. Remember, with very few exceptions you can pretty much get a waiver for anything ... And i dressed continuously my entire 20+ year career ...
    This quote I think hits the nail on the head.
    "I am not altogether on anyone's side as no one is all together on my side"
    Tree beard. Lord of the Rings, The Two Towers.

  22. #72
    Junior Member foxyjj111's Avatar
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    I recently left the navy after only 2 terms (8 yrs). You have to understand that the demographics within the military, due impart to its size, are congruent to the rest of society. throughout my service i was just as open, to certain people, as i am now. I had several friends who knew all about my TG side and even went to bars, clubs, etc dressed in the same cities where i was assigned. I have even met other TGs who were curently serving and were planning to transition once leaving the military. As far as them watching over you, i wouldnt worry to the point of paranoia. I held a TS clearance and was trusted with extremely sensitive information, and used my laptop with the bases wifi all the time. they have far larger things to worry about then CD/TV...

    You do need to be aware that there are those who will not agree with your lifestyle, but thats no different from civilian society. Personally i did feel slightly suffocated only in part because i want to eventually transition; knowing the military would be a difficult situation for such possibility i decided to leave...

  23. #73
    Junior Member ak88gurl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pythos View Post
    That being said. This should NOT have to be "from within, with your own sweat and blood" It is a disgrace that such wanton bigotry is a part of our military. As was noted this was signed in the 50s. Well perhaps it should be gone over and have all such bigotry removed.
    You want to see the bigotry removed? Someone does have to fight it from within at some point for the bigotry to ever be noticed unfortunately. This has always been the case. Blacks earned their permanent right just to join because of the valor of the 54th Massachussetts Infantry Regiment in the Civil War, and eventually segregation was ended after WWII because of the service records of the colored combat units such as the 361st Tank Battalion, the 99th Pursuit Squadron (Tuskegee Airmen), and the most decorated unit of the entire war, the 442nd Infantry which was composed of Japanese-Americans fighting for freedom even while their families were living in internment camps. Desegregation also first started as an experiment out of desperation during the Battle of the Bulge with blacks being put together with whites in a couple regiments, and people saw how soldiers would watch each others backs regardless of color. Some of us have heard the stories about gay soldiers whose units basically knew they were gay also. The bigotry isn't right but it's ended by people like Dan Choi and others within the military making people see how wrong the bigotry is. The country doesn't much care if they just see people they don't think will really serve honorably in numbers anyway complaining about it from outside the military. People like Diane Schroer should represent transgendered, not people like Bradley Manning. So that's my little rant about why this DOES actually have to be challenged by other people's own sweat and blood, because that's the way change in the military has ALWAYS come about.

    Anyway, so I think I've made my point there, but also I'm not joining to prove anything but rather also because you and I don't have it that bad in this country all in consideration either. LGBT rights around the world are still fairly recent really, and we're not that far behind a lot of the other western countries and quite far ahead of most other countries around the world, and I still genuinely believe that we have a lot of other rights that make this a great country, sometimes taken for granted and indeed threatened by terrorists who, if we didn't collect intel on and go after, would be making more attacks on our soil.
    Last edited by ak88gurl; 12-28-2011 at 03:05 AM.

  24. #74
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    I can't believe you left out the 555th Parachute Infantry Regiment. That was a giant leap ahead!

  25. #75
    Junior Member ak88gurl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AngieCD View Post
    I can't believe you left out the 555th Parachute Infantry Regiment. That was a giant leap ahead!
    Yeah, the "Triple Nickels" took the toughest training the Army had at that time to offer. I also didn't mention the Montford Point Marines or the distinguished service of the 92nd and 93rd Infantry Divisions in both world wars. Also, it was the 761st and not 361st Tank Btn (Kareem Abdul-Jabbar wrote a good book about them). I could have included the Commanche and Navajo code-talkers also. For those that haven't realized yet I'm kind of a history buff.

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