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Thread: Difference between transgendered and a crossdresser

  1. #51
    Never knows best Amber99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pythos View Post
    now in the case of IS. You are NOT either TS NOR TG. You should not fit into either term.
    .
    IS become TS if they are surgically assigned wrong.

  2. #52
    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    If anyone feels slighted by this conversation, they shouldn't. If you feel slighted than you have to look inwards, not out... I felt that lack of self esteem and inability to feel good about myself for my whole life. Ironically, as a transsexual I soothed myself by thinking of myself as a crossdresser or autogynephile...i felt those were "better"....I had learn to feel good about myself, and get over my self loathing about my gender.

    Nobody is better than anyone else because of their gender identity or because of how they are living as it relates to gender..

    Guys in dresses do not help transsexuals gain acceptance. The gender binary is something that is debated here often. The gender binary includes most people, and it excludes the rest. Being included in that binary has meaningful benefits, not the least of which is finding work. And if you view yourself as simply male or female, the binary is something that feels natural...If any of you folks that work as male would like to put crossdressing as your activity in your resume, or 63% male/37% female on your next job application, by all means do so.

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    Kaitlyn,

    That's hitting it squarely on the head.
    You summed it all up extremely well.


    Julia


    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele View Post
    If anyone feels slighted by this conversation, they shouldn't. If you feel slighted than you have to look inwards, not out... I felt that lack of self esteem and inability to feel good about myself for my whole life. Ironically, as a transsexual I soothed myself by thinking of myself as a crossdresser or autogynephile...i felt those were "better"....I had learn to feel good about myself, and get over my self loathing about my gender.

    Nobody is better than anyone else because of their gender identity or because of how they are living as it relates to gender..

    Guys in dresses do not help transsexuals gain acceptance. The gender binary is something that is debated here often. The gender binary includes most people, and it excludes the rest. Being included in that binary has meaningful benefits, not the least of which is finding work. And if you view yourself as simply male or female, the binary is something that feels natural...If any of you folks that work as male would like to put crossdressing as your activity in your resume, or 63% male/37% female on your next job application, by all means do so.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele View Post
    I think it's reasonable to understand yourself as transsexual but not transition. Based on my experience however, I have some doubt in my mind about it that is hard to erase... All the ts people I know are either transitioned, desperately trying to, or miserable. Despite myndoubt, I don't begrudge anyone that is suffering the life of a woman that lives as a man, and I think if transition doesn't happen, for whatever reason, you have the right and the responsibility to mitigate the gid in any way you can...
    Which is precisely how I live my life. And the story still unfolds and hopefully will continue to do so for many years. This is not to say that my life isn't peppered with moments of absolute joy along with miserable despair. Maybe it's my optimistic nature. Maybe it's because I've been self-aware for so many years and am at a level of acceptance which allows for some semblance of equilibrium in trying to navigate this middle path. Or perhaps 2012 has in store for me much more than I could ever imagine when it comes to my gender issues. My point is two-fold. I know many people who are so similar to myself that it is almost scary. I am here to say that it is possible to be TS and still stay on a middle path...and be reasonably content, and even happy, provided there are outlets for expression of the person, the woman in my heart.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele View Post
    Saying there is some kind of tg umbrella does not make it so..So arguing the tg umbrella is somehow necessary to communicate assumes the idea that there is one....I argue that there isn't (or at least it doesn't include transsexuals), and so that it actually hinders communication... If I am job hunting, and a person thinks of me as similar to a drag queen, need is say more?
    The TG umbrella exists for better or for worse, even if only in academia for purposes of categorization and discussion.

    What I don't get is that there are members of the LGB community who abhor the idea of T being included. The exclusion of others in our community by the transitioned TS crowd smacks of the same exclusionary behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Julia_in_Pa View Post
    If I offend some people with what I say I'm sorry but sometimes the truth opens some very raw emotions.

    I belong to a distinct and separate group that exists outside that catch all phrase term "transgender".

    There will no longer be a co-opting of the TS/IS community by others that think they require rights where rights are not needed.

    Those under the transgender umbrella already have rights bestowed upon them due to their male privilege.

    Simply revert back to your male selves like you do and your rights are guaranteed.

    Those that live full time don't have those rights yet there are those that demand to be included in what little protections we have fought and bled for.

    People under the transgender umbrella will not understand what pain from discrimination is until they go full time.

    It took me five years of mostly hell to be where I am and I'll be damned if I remain silent while people that have no Idea what the TS/IS community goes through cry and whine because the truth is spoken.


    Julia
    Quote Originally Posted by SandraAbsent View Post
    I'm sorry but Julia was right when she said that if you are transgender, but not transsexual or intersexed and you want your rights back put your other gender back on and enjoy them. The challenge regarding the umbrella term is when it comes to spending time on serious legislation and social awareness programs to improve the lives of those who wish to live in the gender they see themselves as whether that be pre-op, post-op, whatever! Is an openly identified Male that enjoys wearing clothes for whatever reason obligated to the same protections as someone with a medical condition that is trying to live their life comfortably in an opposite gender role. If the answer is yes, where do we draw the line? See now why the umbrella term only serves to confuse things?
    What makes both of you so bold to think that everyone under the proverbial umbrella is trying to take on the same rights as you?

    Quote Originally Posted by SandraAbsent View Post
    In an earlier thread this week in the CDers forum, someone was discussing having to defend themselves at work for being outed for wearing a bra under shirt and tie and being threatened with his job for doing so. Everyone was screaming LAWSUIT!!! I dont think so. I think this is on a totally different playing field when compared to someone trying to transition at work or seek new work to start there transition. Or even being outed and loosing your job years after your SRS. This is just a small example of the huge differences.
    I don't know the thread you are talking about but I seriously doubt the idea of a lawsuit in this case has anything to do with the TS side of things. Instead, it has more to do with dress code but either way, it could very well bleed into other aspects that do in fact affect how things develop in society for those who are full time transitioning. Hmmm, I think I'm seeing how that umbrella thing works. There can easily be an interrelationship among the groups which are present that goes beyond gender expression and/or identity to socio-political ramifications, whether by way of legal issues or changes in anti-discrimination laws.

    Quote Originally Posted by SandraAbsent View Post
    I am not anti CDers, or fetishests, or whatever. I have some CD friends and love them to death. Its simple though, some of our challenges are similar, but most of our challenges are totally different.
    Gosh, this sounds just like those oft-used expressions, "I have friends who are (insert any ethnic minority)" or "I have many gay frends" and these are often followed by a phrase beginning with the word "but..." Do you realize how utterly divisive this is? And then to say some of our challenges are similar (thus making a case for said umbrella), and most of our challenges are totally different. Like that's a newsflash, again making a case for the continuum which resides underneath that umbrella.

    Quote Originally Posted by SandraAbsent View Post
    So back to the original theme of this thread. Im sure you can see there are some pretty big differences based on what you have read in all the posts so far. I only have one thing to ask of CDers. Be mindful of the actions you take when you are in public. Because most of the public doesn't know the difference, they associate you and me together as one.
    Part of this is nearly verbatim to what I have said in the past, and how I live my life, even though I am not one of the CD'ers you are directing this at. I am 100% mindful of the actions I take when I am in public. I acknowledge that I represent a community and know very well that while I can choose to remove most aspect of my feminine presentation at any time, there are others who are unable to do so. But the Muggles have no idea where we as individuals stand underneath the TG umbrella (darn, there's that concept again) as long as we're perceived as being TG. This goes for the fully transitioned woman to the CD'er who is out and about.

    Quote Originally Posted by SandraAbsent View Post
    What you do at home, work and play as a CDer does have an effect on me, because it effect how others view the (and i will use the umbrella term here) "Transgender" population. If you let us do our work the result will be a better world for you too!
    Could this be any more hypocritical? You have used the umbrella term and/or concept when it suits your point, yet you reject the concept. Which is it?

    And could you be any more condescending? Let us do our work and the result will be a better world for you too!?!?

    My goodness.
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  5. #55
    One Perky Goth Gurl Pythos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amber99 View Post
    IS become TS if they are surgically assigned wrong.

    Sorry, I had forgotten that so many go through that barbaric act. Surgical reassignment and birth should be banned except when the child's life is at stake...not sure how that would be by the way.
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  6. #56
    One Perky Goth Gurl Pythos's Avatar
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    So what I have learned from this thread is that I contribute to TSs, and to an extent ISs, having a hard time in society. I and people like myself that view the strict following of the gender binary in the manner it is followed, are who justify bigotry outside of the bedroom, or on the job.

    It is not the bigots, it is not the homophobes. Nooooo, it is I, who when dressed present an exotic and attractive look. So much so that at the clubs I am photographed quite often. I have embraced an IS individual as my GF, and abhor those that truly do give CDers a bad image.

    Wow! I guess I must stop, so that I don't damage the image of those that I SUPPORT their rights of existence. I don't go around and say Transsexuals give CDers a bad image, cause they make the muggles think all CDers eventually transition, and there are muggles out there that think the act of transitioning is wrong.

    Also about the thread concerning the individual getting reprimanded at work for wearing a bra. you think this was right? If he was flaunting it then perhaps there is some ground for this sort of thing, but if it was well hidden then that is BS.

    When it comes to myself. I just wish I could present however I wished, and not have to worry about losing my job, or my house, or getting beaten. But the reality is, I can. Just because I don't feel the drive or need to change my sex does not mean I think that those that do are lowering CDers, or giving me a bad image.

    I would appreciate it if I was given that same respect.

    On another note: Male Privilege. This only exists for men that are type A. A for A-hole. In my jobs I have no more "privilege" than a equally capable female. That is the same kind of crap as telling me I have "white privilege". I know of many people that do not fit the white category and they are doing far better than myself with LESS education. So I frankly have not seen me being a beneficiary of having "male privilege" or any other kind of privilege.

    Over all, when it comes to seeking rights. What we are seeking are basic human rights. The right to live with no threat to our livelihood no matter how we present ourselves, to not be threatened with losing our jobs for something that for all rights should not matter. I want no more rights than anyone else, I just want those that are denied me and others like myself to be given back.
    Last edited by Pythos; 12-30-2011 at 11:34 AM.
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    @ Sara

    The TS/IS communities have to constantly battle public opinion concerning who and what we are.
    It is exhausting to have to explain within the legal arena as to the reasoning why we need laws protecting us.

    We have to battle those forces that think it's a part time thing or a cross dressing fetish concerning those that have transitioned to full time.

    We have little if anything in common with the transgender umbrella once we go into full time status.

    It's an everyday battle for the full time TS/IS community as a whole to disassociate themselves from part timer's, cross dresser's and fetishists in order to get laws passed that will stop discrimination in public accommodation, housing, restroom use, employment, etc.


    Are you full time? Have you ever gone on a job interview as YOU? Have you attempted to rent an apartment as YOU?
    If you are not full time you have absolutely no idea what these challenges are for us that are full time.

    Like I've said before, most of the transgender umbrella gets to revert back to their male presentation in order to live another day, we do not.

    I cannot care what those that feel slighted think because they are not in our shoes.

    you can be offended all you want but the fact remains that if you are not full time you will not understand fully this battle we wage.


    Julia

  8. #58
    Aspiring Member JulieK1980's Avatar
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    It's interesting how the post-op transexual comes completely full circle. A Crossdresser, (and many transexuals start off here before they realize who they are) often hides in the closet as a safety net, and lives in secrecy and often bashes gays and won't hesitate to bash another crossdresser so they can be seen as a "man". A post-op transexual hides behind their surgically altered body and then rejects crossdressers, and calls them perverts, and tries to blend in with women. It's ironic though, that society as a whole would call them the same thing. The disdain shown by some here is pathetic, and no matter how much you call it truth, it's nothing more than bigotry and hate.

    The umbrella term isn't going anywhere whether it's rejected by the community or not. It's there for psychiatric reasons. We all have a "disorder" (granted I dislike the term) but that's what the psychiatric community calls it. It's there as an umbrella of all people that don't fit that wonderful binary gender system our society embraces. (It's worth noting most societies in history recognized a third gender) So whether you embrace it, reject it, accept it, doesn't really matter. Society labels us, we don't.

    On a final note, before I leave this thread in distaste. I don't know what part of the transition turns you into a nasty person, but I'm thankful I don't have to go through it (at least not yet). I have no desire to become a bitter hateful person. So feel special all you want, and try to remember. You are NOT special, and a big chunk of society will happily kill you for being a "pervert" whether you have a penis or not.

    Edit: I shouldn't generalize. It isn't "ALL" transexuals.
    Last edited by JulieK1980; 12-30-2011 at 08:18 PM.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julia_in_Pa View Post


    It's an everyday battle for the full time TS/IS community as a whole to disassociate themselves from part timer's, cross dresser's and fetishists in order to get laws passed that will stop discrimination in public accommodation, housing, restroom use, employment, etc.



    If it is so important to disassociate from them why you do you associate with them on a site call crossdressers.com?

  10. #60
    What is normal anyway? Rianna Humble's Avatar
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    This thread started going off track when it descended into a fight about whether TG was an umbrella and if so who should have the right to shelter under that umbrella.

    It wouldn't surprise me at all if we have scared off JenniferLuvsPunk and never see her again.
    Check out this link if you are wondering about joining Safe Haven.

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  11. #61
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    I do not think I have ever seen so much hipocracy as I have read here. Starting off with some women of transsexual history that berate CDers of fetish or other reasons. You may have a female gender identity, but your gender expression is so extremely masculine competative. There is not one ounce of female nurturing gender expression in uour soul. And you weep and complain about fem radicals (who are masculine gender expression also) who exclude you. All they are doing to you is what you are doin to CDers. The problem of bogotry of this sort is the bigot is so blinded by their bigotry they do not and will not understand their bigotry.

    Gender identity is not the same as gender expression. I have known many women of transsexual history that were able to live for years hiding their opposite gender identity necause they did not have much opposite gender expression. Many gay men have suffered over the years because of their opposite gender expression. Some crossdressers have spent years being bullied, including today by women of transsexual history, because of their innate opppsite gender expression. A pox on all who are not nurturing of everyone who is or was trans, trans for whatever reason.

  12. #62
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    Cousins Who Don't Marry Can't Get Divorced

    Transgender is an adjective that describes a group of people who are related to each other in
    typical and subtypical ways. You can play the name game any way you want, but our general and specific relationships are determined by similar biological imperatives that can't be differentiated just because we talk about them in different ways.

    Everyone is so perfectly special, we think. We all hate it when someone tries to invade our territory or usurp our identities, don't we? Some of us can't stand some of our family members or other people who are classed with us in ways that can't be denied. Oh well, too bad, so sad to say.

    Transgender people (including crossdressers, transsexuals, and others) are related by blood not marriage or social convention. We can't divorce ourselves from each other by shining a light on our subordinate differences because our dominant similarities shine brighter. Transgender is the family name for all of us in the court of human nature. You can try to disown it in a lower court, but your petition will be overruled by a higher one.
    Last edited by Pink Person; 12-30-2011 at 12:58 PM.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by suzy1 View Post
    What a shame that there is so much confusion, so much unnecessary bickering about this subject.
    Calling another member stupid, and saying “it’s laughable that you made this stupid accusation”
    Or using phrases like “pissed off” is sad and not necessary.

    Are not the majority of us here just getting on with life and are happy to be us without a label?

    SUZY
    I agree with Suzy about something. O.o

    This is weird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sara Jessica View Post
    The TG umbrella exists for better or for worse, even if only in academia for purposes of categorization and discussion.

    What I don't get is that there are members of the LGB community who abhor the idea of T being included. The exclusion of others in our community by the transitioned TS crowd smacks of the same exclusionary behavior.
    What I've observed, dealing with my local college-age queer population, is that it's not the transvestic fetishists co-opting transsexualism and our medical model, it's a bunch of feminine gays, lesbians, and fruit flies who think that being transgendered is trendy, never mind that none of them will ever transition. The trans* group is essentially a spinoff from the lesbian community - it's dominated by female assigned at birth genderqueers, with the occasional legit FtM. I'm the only MtF who has ever shown up in the history of that organization, and I'm disinclined to ever return. It seems as though 'T' is only accepted if one was FAB - femme-phobia runs rampant among gays, and transmisogyny is the order of the day among the rest of the queers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rianna Humble View Post
    This thread started going off track when it descended into a fight about whether TG was an umbrella and if so who should have the right to shelter under that umbrella.

    It wouldn't surprise me at all if we have scared off JenniferLuvsPunk and never see her again.
    I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that JenniferLuvsPink probably shouldn't have made this thread, given that zie could have found an answer to zir question with either google or a search through the archives on this site.

    If I was going to troll a bunch of elderly and middle-aged transsexual women, this is precisely the sort of topic I would bring up. That, or ".xx caliber for self-defense?"


    Quote Originally Posted by DeeInGeorgia View Post
    I do not think I have ever seen so much hipocracy as I have read here. Starting off with some women of transsexual history that berate CDers of fetish or other reasons. You may have a female gender identity, but your gender expression is so extremely masculine competative. There is not one ounce of female nurturing gender expression in uour soul. And you weep and complain about fem radicals (who are masculine gender expression also) who exclude you. All they are doing to you is what you are doin to CDers. The problem of bogotry of this sort is the bigot is so blinded by their bigotry they do not and will not understand their bigotry.
    Gender essentialism much, hon'?


    Quote Originally Posted by Pink Person View Post
    Transgender is an adjective that describes a group of people who are related to each other in
    typical and subtypical ways. You can play the name game any way you want, but our general and specific relationships are determined by similar biological imperatives that can't be differentiated just because we talk about them in different ways.

    Everyone is so perfectly special, we think. We all hate it when someone tries to invade our territory or usurp our identities, don't we? Some of us can't stand some of our family members or other people who are classed with us in ways that can't be denied. Oh well, too bad, so sad to say.

    Transgender people (including crossdressers, transsexuals, and others) are related by blood not marriage or social convention. We can't divorce ourselves from each other by shining a light on our subordinate differences because our dominant similarities shine brighter. Transgender is the family name for all of us in the court of human nature. You can try to disown it in a lower court, but your petition will be overruled by a higher one.
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    Last edited by ameliabee; 12-30-2011 at 03:02 PM. Reason: Change of tone.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by JodyCD View Post
    A post-op transexual hides behind their surgically altered body and then rejects crossdressers, and calls them perverts, and tries to blend in with women. It's ironic though, that society as a whole would call them the same thing. The disdain shown by some here is pathetic, and no matter how much you call it truth, it's nothing more than bigotry and hate.
    Short of achieving as close to perfect stealth as possible, the fact remains that the post-op woman can be mis-labeled by others regardless of whether or not the weekend-CD'er is active in being out in society. Making this obvious statement brings me no joy, it is what it is, and I'd personally expect the exact same thing personally short of miraculous results of HRT & FFS. So while I do understand the exasperation that is likely to result when the fully transitioned and integrated woman finds herself having to "explain" the nature of her TG being, it seems counter-productive to outright reject those others who at least share something in common that led everyone to be placed under the same umbrella term, transgendered.

    Quote Originally Posted by JodyCD View Post
    The umbrella term isn't going anywhere whether it's rejected by the community or not. It's there for psychiatric reasons. We all have a "disorder" (granted I dislike the term) but that's what the psychiatric community calls it. It's there as an umbrella of all people that don't fit that wonderful binary gender system our society embraces. (It's worth noting most societies in history recognized a third gender) So whether you embrace it, reject it, accept it, doesn't really matter. Society labels us, we don't.
    This is true although there is a movement by some outspoken members on the TS side of the fence to change this fact.

    Really, it doesn't matter to me one way or the other what academia does with this term, and whether the above referenced TS contingent is successful. What matters to me is the disrespect that I see within these pages. This is part of my world, a place where I go for solace, advice (both given & received) and even perhaps a dash of vanity. I participate with one foot on the CD side of the fence and another on the TS side because this is where I am, on a middle path. Bottom line, my head & heart clearly convey to me that I am TS. Perhaps this is why the whole umbrella and continuum concepts make so much sense to me because both help me understand my place in the world. But to see such outright rejection and holier-than-thou (oh, I'm sorry, "more-trans-than-thou") attitudes that can be so pervasive, those need to be called out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pythos View Post
    So what I have learned from this thread is that I contribute to TSs, and to an extent ISs, having a hard time in society. I and people like myself that view the strict following of the gender binary in the manner it is followed, are who justify bigotry outside of the bedroom, or on the job.
    Apparently part of the premise is that anyone who is not full-time contributes to the woes of those who are. I had no idea we had so much sway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pythos View Post
    When it comes to myself. I just wish I could present however I wished, and not have to worry about losing my job, or my house, or getting beaten. But the reality is, I can. Just because I don't feel the drive or need to change my sex does not mean I think that those that do are lowering CDers, or giving me a bad image.

    I would appreciate it if I was given that same respect.
    For any of us who are not full time but venture outside of the safe confines of our homes, these are legitimate concerns which are not likely to be concerns of those who do not step out (and therefore demonstrates that not everyone under said umbrella is looking to co-op rights that are not necessary). But I guess it was said before, you and I need to step aside and let the big girls do all the heavy lifting and as a result, we will eventually reap the benefits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pythos View Post
    On another note: Male Privilege. This only exists for men that are type A. A for A-hole. In my jobs I have no more "privilege" than a equally capable female. That is the same kind of crap as telling me I have "white privilege". I know of many people that do not fit the white category and they are doing far better than myself with LESS education. So I frankly have not seen me being a beneficiary of having "male privilege" or any other kind of privilege.
    I acknowledge our ability to retreat towards "male privilege" as being a perception that is in fact reality in many circles. Just being able to "take off the girl" and revert back into a world of gender binary makes this so. However, just because many of us can do this doesn't mean we either embrace it or take advantage of it. As I said before, it is what it is and I don't see this as something that should be used against us, like we are of a lesser trans-species by not being full-time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pythos View Post
    Over all, when it comes to seeking rights. What we are seeking are basic human rights. The right to live with no threat to our livelihood no matter how we present ourselves, to not be threatened with losing our jobs for something that for all rights should not matter. I want no more rights than anyone else, I just want those that are denied me and others like myself to be given back.
    Such a very fair statement, Pythos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Julia_in_Pa View Post
    @ Sara

    The TS/IS communities have to constantly battle public opinion concerning who and what we are.
    It is exhausting to have to explain within the legal arena as to the reasoning why we need laws protecting us.
    And perhaps someday this battle will no longer need to be fought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Julia_in_Pa View Post
    We have to battle those forces that think it's a part time thing or a cross dressing fetish concerning those that have transitioned to full time.

    We have little if anything in common with the transgender umbrella once we go into full time status.

    It's an everyday battle for the full time TS/IS community as a whole to disassociate themselves from part timer's, cross dresser's and fetishists in order to get laws passed that will stop discrimination in public accommodation, housing, restroom use, employment, etc.
    Ya know, if this is such a pervasive hurdle to be overcome, what's so hard about making the distinction you see necessary and then moving on? It's all part of educating the Muggles about our community. Disassociating yourself from the entirety of the community will never change that fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Julia_in_Pa View Post
    Are you full time? Have you ever gone on a job interview as YOU? Have you attempted to rent an apartment as YOU?
    If you are not full time you have absolutely no idea what these challenges are for us that are full time.
    No, no, and no.

    But please, give other human beings a little credit as to the capacity to understand a rather simple concept. I get it. I don't have to be full time to fully comprehend the challenges faced by those who are. Really, it isn't rocket science. And maybe my understanding of the big picture is a major reason I choose not to go down that path.

    Quote Originally Posted by Julia_in_Pa View Post
    Like I've said before, most of the transgender umbrella gets to revert back to their male presentation in order to live another day, we do not.
    And?

    So what.

    Like I said above, this ability doesn't mean it's embraced and speaking for myself, it certainly doesn't impact my ability to empathize.

    Quote Originally Posted by Julia_in_Pa View Post
    I cannot care what those that feel slighted think because they are not in our shoes.

    you can be offended all you want but the fact remains that if you are not full time you will not understand fully this battle we wage.
    Julia, you are one of the most interesting people I have encountered here in that you present as having a complete lack of empathy which tells me you cannot comprehend this capacity being able to exist in others. You say you don't care and I totally believe you. I am not here to change your mind but I hope I offer an alternate POV to those who might be inclined to line up behind your myopic and in my opinion, misguided, take on this whole subject.

    I have dear friends on the CD end of the spectrum. I have dear friends who are fully transitioned. I have seen death as a result of GID from way too close of a vantage point. I have also seen more joy that comes from our shared experiences which makes shedding despair in favor of happiness so worthwhile. Like I said before, the knowledge I have gained by being included on the TS side of things has contributed to my empathy which impacts how I conduct myself when I am fortunate to be out & about as my true self. Therefore, you can continue your rants about separation and I will continue to be true to everyone within our community who shows respect not only for natal females but also to those of us who are making their way in this wonderful world full-time.
    Like a corpse deep in the earth I'm so alone, restless thoughts torment my soul, as fears they lay confirmed, but my life has always been this way - Virginia Astley, "Some Small Hope" (1986)
    Sunlight falls, my wings open wide. There's a beauty here I cannot deny - David Sylvian, "Orpheus" (1987)

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pink Person View Post
    Transgender is an adjective that describes a group of people who are related to each other in
    typical and subtypical ways. You can play the name game any way you want, but our general and specific relationships are determined by similar biological imperatives that can't be differentiated just because we talk about them in different ways.

    Everyone is so perfectly special, we think. We all hate it when someone tries to invade our territory or usurp our identities, don't we? Some of us can't stand some of our family members or other people who are classed with us in ways that can't be denied. Oh well, too bad, so sad to say.

    Transgender people (including crossdressers, transsexuals, and others) are related by blood not marriage or social convention. We can't divorce ourselves from each other by shining a light on our subordinate differences because our dominant similarities shine brighter. Transgender is the family name for all of us in the court of human nature. You can try to disown it in a lower court, but your petition will be overruled by a higher one.
    I only partially agree. The "biological imperatives" don't have anything like consensus and, in any event, only seem to apply when gender is at issue (whether or not acknowledged or known). There are varieties of behavior that have no source in biological considerations.

    On the higher court comment, I think people, by and large, can distinguish between, say, a transsexual and someone who dresses up for the local sex club event, just as they recognize distinctions in the gay community. The haters, rednecks, and bashers aren't going away, but I truly don't believe that constitutes most of the population.

    Lea

  16. #66
    What is normal anyway? Rianna Humble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by konkbent View Post
    I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that JenniferLuvsPink really had no business making this thread, given that zie could have found an answer to zir question with either google or a search through the archives on this site.
    Fortunately, until you become the administrator, any member has the right to start a thread like this whether or not you approve
    Check out this link if you are wondering about joining Safe Haven.

    This above all: To thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any

    Galileo said "You cannot teach a man anything" and they accuse ME of being sexist

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  17. #67
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    In case you haven't been paying attention Arbon this thread exists in the TS area.

    I also receive an incredible amount of comic relief from the cross dresser threads.

    The fixation on women's panties and bra's is quite hilarious.

    It's like a train wreck, you can't stop looking. LOL!!

    Now move on.


    Julia


    Quote Originally Posted by arbon View Post
    If it is so important to disassociate from them why you do you associate with them on a site call crossdressers.com?

  18. #68
    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    Jody get off your high horse ... I'm not distancing myself from anyone..you accuse others of bigotry and hate?...saying I am "hiding behind my surgically altered body" is mean spirited and totally false. I do not hide...you do! It shows your disdain for transsexuals to use those words... I do not distance myself from anyone..I am not even remotely hypocritical in any way...I am deeply involved in the transsexual and transgendered community.... I get up in front of hundreds of people as a transsexual and I explain to them who I am to ovations...

    I tell people that all transgendered people need support, that all tg people deserve good treatment, safety and the ability to feel good about themselves..I tell people how there is every type of gender presentation..

  19. #69
    Member Kathy Smith's Avatar
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    Just a flying visit here, ladies,
    Stir-Stir...
    Has anyone given a thought to the etymology here?

    "trans" is a Latin noun or prefix, meaning "across", "beyond" or "on the opposite side".

    "gender" refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women.

    "sex" refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women.

    "vestitus" is a latin word for "dressed".

    That leaves the translation of "trans-gender" and "trans-sexual" a bit clearer. :-)
    The former implies that the person PRESENTS as a member of the opposite gender in society. The latter implies that the person HAS certain characteristics of the opposite sex to which they were born.

    If we now look at these definitions then ANYONE who PRESENTS as a member of the opposite gender COULD be referred to as "Transgender". It doesn't matter if that person is "just" a crossdresser. There is no requirement for a transgender person to be transsexual according to this definition. A "transsexual" person may have physical, emotional and/or mental characteristics of the opposite sex, but need not PRESENT as having those characteristics. Once again, there is no requirement for a transsexual person to be transgendered, even though most of them are.

    From the above, isn't it justified to say that referring to a transsexual person as transgendered is NOT an insult? It merely states that the person in question is PRESENTING as a person of the opposite gender to their birth. The two terms are different.

    The problem is that we are short of precise nouns to describe those who have already:
    a) completed transition from one sex to the other (we can't kid ourselves, there is no such thing as 100% sex change. Even a surgeons knife doesn't remove our early upbringing and memories which stay with us all our lives.)
    b) someone who dresses in clothes of the opposite sex, but not for sexual gratification. The word "transvestite" has now become too sexually-charged to be used for this group, which is a pity because it is otherwise fairly accurate. "cross-dresser" is probably as close as we can get and is a reasonable translation from the latin.

    Note that a cross-dresser or transvestite are not, by definition, transsexual but may be classified as transgendered. All transgendered people MUST be transvestites, cross-dressers and/or transsexual in order to present as their chosen gender.

    OK. I'll put my flac jacket on and dive down into the bunker again. :-)
    **-* Kath *-**
    Let them see that their words can cut you and you’ll never be free of the mockery. If they want to give you a name, take it, make it your own. Then they can’t hurt you with it anymore.
    ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones

  20. #70
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    I have no problem with the terminology as long as people understand the difference.

    I'd also like to note that transexuals are fighting for acceptance and RIGHTS.

    Crossdressers only need to worry about acceptance.

    What I don't like is people comparing the struggles of a transexual to the struggles of a crossdresser. And I don't like that when we're fighting for our rights, we're compared to the people who are happy being their physical gender and simply enjoy crossdressing for whatever reason. They don't want to give us the rights everyone else has because they think we're just crossdressers who like to talk about what color panties we're wearing.

    A crossdresser doesn't have to worry about how the laws affect them or hold them back from being who they are. They dont have to worry about being arrested for using a public restroom. They don't have to worry about being allowed to get married or adopt a child. They don't have to worry about losing their job or finding a new one because they are different. They don't have to worry about where all the money is going to come from to allow for their transition to be who they really are.

    And Jody, transexuals aren't hiding behind anything once they transition. They are finally able to take off the mask that was hiding them. You're saying that all the post-op transexuals are hateful... i think you are full of yourself and have a bit of hate yourself.

  21. #71
    . Aprilrain's Avatar
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    there are 8 billion people on the planet if one doesn't like you move on

  22. #72
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    Dogs Are Born From Dog Mothers and Queer Dogs Have Spots

    One of the missing links between crossdressers and transsexuals (and any other kind of transgender person) is that they are not cisgender. I raise this negative definition of transgender people because some of you will absurdly deny any positive link between members of different transgender groups. This common bond between transgender people is based on a truism, not dogma. Church mice who think that dogma drives any type of gender identification and classification should return to their dark holes for a second opinion. If it was all about dogma, then transgender populations wouldn't exist because there is no such thing as a transgender dogma that would support their propagation.

    The gender distinctions that people make about themselves are important. You can prove it by challenging anyone's self-identification and observing the reaction it provokes. However, some differences don't make us different, and some similarities don't make us the same. We have to weigh our similarities and differences, objectively and subjectively, to reach a balanced conclusion. You might tip the transgender scale heavily or lightly, in one direction or the other, but none of us slides off of it. We all register somewhere on the transgender scale. We don't register on the cisgender scale. We don't register on the cisgender scale because the characteristics that identify transgender people don't have the same weight as the characteristics that identify cisgender ones. This is the order of distinct difference that should matter most to us. We are not cisgender. Once you have recognized this fact then it will be easier for you to accept the true scale of your relationships with other people. Perhaps it will make you more generous to the other queers you might now be prone to bashing.

  23. #73
    One Perky Goth Gurl Pythos's Avatar
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    A crossdresser doesn't have to worry about how the laws affect them or hold them back from being who they are. They dont have to worry about being arrested for using a public restroom. They don't have to worry about being allowed to get married or adopt a child. They don't have to worry about losing their job or finding a new one because they are different. They don't have to worry about where all the money is going to come from to allow for their transition to be who they really are.
    Um, I would like to know what world you live in. I cannot preset as I prefer if I want to get a house, I cannot use a restrroom in the general public if in my preferred mode. I was unaware that I could go into an adoption clinic skirted and be able to get on the list to be able to adopt. I don't have to worry about my job? Really? Funny I have heard of CDs losing thier jobs for being sited OFF THE JOB. The last point is the only truism of your whole post.

    IT IS BASIC human rights we strive for. ALL OF US. That's it, that's all.
    "I am not altogether on anyone's side as no one is all together on my side"
    Tree beard. Lord of the Rings, The Two Towers.

  24. #74
    Princess in the making SandraAbsent's Avatar
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    What makes both of you so bold to think that everyone under the proverbial umbrella is trying to take on the same rights as you?
    I can only speak for myself, but I don't recall saying anything about everyone under the umbrella trying to take the same right as me. To deny that some are would be foolish, and often times I see these rights being fought for under circumstances that make this whole thing look like a game. It simply makes me angry.

    I don't know the thread you are talking about but I seriously doubt the idea of a lawsuit in this case has anything to do with the TS side of things. Instead, it has more to do with dress code but either way, it could very well bleed into other aspects that do in fact affect how things develop in society for those who are full time transitioning. Hmmm, I think I'm seeing how that umbrella thing works. There can easily be an interrelationship among the groups which are present that goes beyond gender expression and/or identity to socio-political ramifications, whether by way of legal issues or changes in anti-discrimination laws.
    If you are flying the Transgender Flag protesting that you have the right to under-dress and not be called into question about it than it is a TS issue. It also happens to be a perfect example of seeking rights and protections being fought for under circumstances that make this entire thing look like a game.

    Gosh, this sounds just like those oft-used expressions, "I have friends who are (insert any ethnic minority)" or "I have many gay frends" and these are often followed by a phrase beginning with the word "but..." Do you realize how utterly divisive this is? And then to say some of our challenges are similar (thus making a case for said umbrella), and most of our challenges are totally different. Like that's a newsflash, again making a case for the continuum which resides underneath that umbrella.
    Did I follow my statement with the word "but..."? I have many ethnic minority, friends and I love them. I have many gay friends and I love them. I have many CDer friends and I love them. Someone posted earlier that crossdressers seek acceptance, I support them 100% in this. I have this in common but by no means was I making a case for the umbrella with this commonality. Their is a huge difference between acceptance and legal rights. So am I sounding divisive? Yes but not without cause and certainly without the bigotry you implied.

    Part of this is nearly verbatim to what I have said in the past, and how I live my life, even though I am not one of the CD'ers you are directing this at. I am 100% mindful of the actions I take when I am in public. I acknowledge that I represent a community and know very well that while I can choose to remove most aspect of my feminine presentation at any time, there are others who are unable to do so. But the Muggles have no idea where we as individuals stand underneath the TG umbrella (darn, there's that concept again) as long as we're perceived as being TG. This goes for the fully transitioned woman to the CD'er who is out and about.
    Thank you, but not all are mindfull. A quick read through these forums will reveal that at times. Unfortunately and often these are the examples that are used to argue the legal matters that transsexuals face. It simply makes me angry.

    What you do at home, work and play as a CDer does have an effect on me, because it effect how others view the (and i will use the umbrella term here) "Transgender" population. If you let us do our work the result will be a better world for you too!
    Could this be any more hypocritical? You have used the umbrella term and/or concept when it suits your point, yet you reject the concept. Which is it?

    And could you be any more condescending? Let us do our work and the result will be a better world for you too!?!?

    My goodness.
    I never used it when it suited my point. I may have used it descriptively, but as a whole I reject the concept. I believe 100% that the rights and acceptance that crossdressers seek are, although similar in nature, a separate issue. Just like I believe that the differences between intersexed and transexuals are night and day to a crossdresser.

    In terms of being condescending. If you view it that way, I guess no I could not be more condescending. Those of us on the front line of the fight stand to gain the biggest freedoms in victory. The overall outcome is greater understanding for everyone, including those who choose to only marginally be engaged. I dont see that as condescending, I see it as the truth.

    I dont normally rip apart a response like this, but I really felt under attack with the manor that you dissected my comments and felt the need to clarify my position. For the record, tread lightly the next time you want to imply that someone that you know nothing about is bigoted. Simple matter of fact is that there is a huge difference between crossdressers and those of us that put out gender on trial ever moment of every day. There is a huge difference in motivations, need for acceptance, and need for legal protections.
    Life inside the music box ain't easy
    The malots hit the gears are always turning
    And everyone inside the mechanism
    Is yearning
    To get out

    http://sandra-absent.blogspot.com

  25. #75
    Aspiring Member JulieK1980's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pythos View Post
    I cannot use a restrroom in the general public if in my preferred mode.
    Actually a few pages back some here said you should NOT be able to use the restroom of your preferred mode, because if you aren't a transitioning transexual, you are a pervert that masturbates to panties. But they say I'M the one full of myself.

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