Difference between transgendered and a crossdresser

[Bree-asaurus]

Believe me, I'm aware it's a long hard and bloody road, and I truly wish I had that magical answer. In the meantime, I do everything I can, and everything I can think to do to help where I can. After all, that's all anyone can do. If I had my way, I'd force acceptance down people's throats, but alas I can't.

I don't think anybody believes it can be done overnight, and if they do that would be naive, and yes we should target the fight to where it needs to be fought the most, and where it is most likely to be won. Picking your battles is very important to the big picture. I just don't think it's a great idea to completely ignore everyone else's struggle because they are different, and don't share your exact needs. Nor, should their struggle be minimized because it's different. For example I don't understand what it's like to be a fetish crossdresser, but that doesn't mean their needs are any less important than my own. They are just simply different.

I agree. I wouldn't be like "NO, Mr. crossdresser! You can't do that because it's not your turn to have rights!" I don't even know how this thread got out of hand... All I was saying in the beginning is I don't like it when people think that crossdressers have it as hard as transexuals. I'm not saying that crossdressers don't have their own struggles, but if you're a MALE crossdresser, you are insane if you think you have it as hard as many of the transexuals who's stories I've read here, and the transexuals I know in person.

And for the record, I'm not making this argument based on my own experiences because I've been very lucky so far. I don't know how long that luck will continue, though. I'm already having a hard time finding a job.

What I do see is a WHOLE lot of discrimination and hardships that other transexuals have to deal with... and it's because of who they are as a person, who they have to be every day of their lives. Not because of their choice in fabric.

(This is kind of directed at Pythos who thinks that crossdressers have it as hard as transexuals and have the same suicide rates) You can say that women's cloths are part of a crossdresser's identity too, but if they kill themselves because they can't wear a skirt, they have other issues. I don't like getting dressed up for job interviews... I prefer jeans and a t-shirt. But I'm not going to commit suicide over that.

[Melody Moore]

*Backs slowly away from thread* Seriously, sometimes I think it's pointless to say anything because some just have no grasp of certain realities...

It is getting totally crazy and now we other non-transsexuals weighing in on the transsexual subject? Unbelievable!

I'm going to try to say this delicately. Cisgender people don't want to be lumped with transgender people. More to the point, cisgender people don't want to be lumped with crossdressers and transsexuals, the transpeople who most want to be associated with them.

You can't make a generalised statement like that. While you obviously can't get your head around
the concept about gender, I know LOTS of other cisgendered women that have no problem with us
trans women being 'lumped in' with them. I was out with some of the most gorgeous GGs tonight
who fully accept me as a female. They talk about all the usual women's stuff with me without any
problems. Many are my friends in the lesbian community & have told me they see me just like any
other natal female and some were surprised to find out I was IS/TS. But this is something someone
like you would have absolutely no concept of and quite frankly I find this thread irritating because
there are so many people here with opinions about what it is to be transsexual when we are very
different to the rest of the gender variants under the transgender umbrella. I really liked Kaitlyn's
& Bree's comments and fully agree with everything they have had to say.

But argue all you want here now because I am really over this crap.

[Bree-asaurus]

It is getting totally crazy and now we other non-transsexuals weighing in on the transsexual subject? Unbelievable!



You can't make a generalised statement like that. While you obviously can't get your head around
the concept about gender, I know LOTS of other cisgendered women that have no problem with us
trans women being 'lumped in' with them. I was out with some of the most gorgeous GGs tonight
who fully accept me as a female. They talk about all the usual women's stuff with me without any
problems. Many are my friends in the lesbian community & have told me they see me just like any
other natal female and some were surprised to find out I was IS/TS. But this is something someone
like you would have absolutely no concept of and quite frankly I find this thread irritating because
there are so many people here with opinions about what it is to be transsexual when we are very
different to the rest of the gender variants under the transgender umbrella. I really liked Kaitlyn's
& Bree's comments and fully agree with everything they have had to say.

But argue all you want here now because I am really over this crap.

Crossdressers are just like everyone else when it comes to understanding being transexual. The simple fact is they can't imagine what it's like because they are not transexual. They make assumptions based on their own experiences which as we see time and time again in this forum, is ignorant and belittling. They think because we wear the same cloths that they have a pretty good idea of what we have to deal with. They have NO IDEA.

And I'm totally lumping everyone into categories here with blanket statements and I do apologize for that... these are just generalizations. I have seen many crossdressers on here show respect for transexuals and what we have to go through. I by NO MEANS actually believe that every single crossdresser is ignorant when it comes to what we deal with.

I prefer when we can all just get along... but a few bad apples spoils everything.

EDIT: And bad apples are everywhere... we have transexuals who, in their infinite wisdom, tell other transexuals they aren't transexual.

[Amber99]

and CDs are not?

I really do not know how to respond to such a selfish statement.

What? Why do crossdressers who IDENTIFY AS MALE(otherwise it wouldn't be crossdressing) kill themselves due to a lack of rights?Some transsexuals who can't get a job presenting as female literally have to choose to either kill themselves or go jobless. Crossdressers who identify as male would not have to deal with the harshness of GD when dressing as a male. If you do have GD when dressing as a male then you aren't simply a crossdresser. Not liking dressing as a guy and GD are very different things.
And how is it selfish at all? I(as a women) just want the rights that any other woman has. Because I don't fight for the any vague rights of each other person simultaniously I'm selfish?

I am really getting sick and tired of seeing this sort of insult. Not to give too much info, but... I do wear pantyhose, and yes I do masturbate. Not always at the same time, but like most HUMAN BEINGS I do have to release sexual tension. As I have said, it is the thought of my girl friend, or an attractive girl seeing me in my stuff, that turns me on. Does this make me a pervert or sick in the mind? Well if I do, then you're sick too because YOU wear panties, or pantyhose, and most likely masturbate while wearing them, OR not. Maybe you just go completely nude and then play with yourself. I don't know and I don't care. But I do care about your attitude towards those that DO NOT HARM YOU. It is the biggots and haters that harm you.

The point isn't that that transsexual have anything personally against fetishes or whatever. The point is that the general public can't tell the difference between us when we are all lumped together in the TG catagory. So people begin to think that transsexualism is a fetish rather than a severe biological/mental disorder.The world isn't going to accept us at all if they think we destroyed our lives and surgically altered our body's just to get off.

[Kathy Smith]

Wow... isn't this fun? ;-)

Think of it from an outsider's point of view. They know nothing about trans-anything. They don't now about trans-x rights or anything like that. They can see 5 kinds of people:
1) obviously male
2) apparently male but looks rather feminine
3) can't make mind up what it is
4) apparently female but looks rather butch
5) obviously female

Now, how are they going to react to these? Obviously, it will depend on their own gender. 1 & 5 are easy. 2 & 4 are less easy, but in most cases they will be accepted. 3 can be really confusing and most muggles will try to avoid catching their eye or speaking with them because it makes them feel uncomfortable.

How will Mr(s) muggle react to finding 2 or 4 in their own toilets/restroom/whatever? They'll almost always accept them providing that they are using the facilities in the usual manner. Yes, you'll get occasional people who will get upset or make a fuss but most people just simply don't care. DONT try to use a urinal while wearing a dress, it's difficult, looks stupid and is a dead giveaway. :-) The argument that a MtoF crossdresser shouldn't use a female toilet is a false one. Rules and locks only restrain honest people. A GG in a female toilet is FAR more likely to be attacked by a "straight" male than by a crossdresser, just because there are far, far fewer crossdressers. Anyway, who is going to issue the badge that says "I am a Pre-op Transsexual so I can use the Ladies"?

To your average muggle appearances really don't matter that much. They can accept blurred boxes. If 2 & 4 are crossdressers or transvestites or pre-op transsexuals they don't know or care.
Officialdom (in all its forms) is the real problem. That's where you have to fit one of their boxes.

As I pointed out earlier, anyone who passes or attempts to pass as the opposite gender to that of their birth is automatically transgender by definition. We may not like that, but that's the name on one of the official boxes and there is little that we can do to change that. A few departments can sub-divide that category to some extent, but that umbrella term is going to stay because it's so convenient. You are NOT going to get transsexuals put into a different box from transgender though, simply because, by simple observation, you can't tell an early pre-op transexual from a crossdresser or transvestite. They may be the same anyway.

If you live somewhere where you can have ID that suits your choice of gender then that's great! You are extremely lucky to have such an accepting system and I hope that you appreciate it. I am a crossdresser. I would love to have a bus pass that allowed me to travel en femme without revealing my male identity (it states my name & has a photograph), but that isn't going to happen within the forseeable future. The paperwork/computer/little Hitler won't allow it. I can travel on the bus as male or not travel on the bus.
OK, I'm "lucky" to be "just a crossdresser", but I'm not allowed to drive for medical reasons. I depend on those buses to get around. I can't go shopping en femme to a big mall simply because I have to travel as male. I daren't go shopping en femme locally without risking my job and, possibly, putting my family at some risk. I don't live in a city and a TG person tends to REALLY stand out around here. I don't think we have anywhere near the sort of acceptance that the US seems to have.

If you are IS or transsexual then, believe me, I really wish that you could gain full acceptance. It must be extremely difficult for you.

I hope that we can keep any internal squabbling to this area. It seems such a pity that it is happening at all.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

If you are IS or transsexual then, believe me, I really wish that you could gain full acceptance. It must be extremely difficult for you.

I hope that we can keep any internal squabbling to this area. It seems such a pity that it is happening at all.

gee thanks....

Btw...
Saying it's Internal squabbling begs the question...

[Melody Moore]

Kathy, any MtF Crossdresser who does not have female identification should not be allowed in a female toilet. END OF STORY!

Transsexuals are already having to deal with the fallout from the result of a few perverts dressing up as women
and assaulting women and children in a ladies restrooms and bathrooms. And I don't need any badge to say I am
a "Pre-op M-F Transsexual", my drivers licence and all my other legal ID shows that I am a female, so for me it is
not an issue. However I am fearful of losing my rights and more stigma being created by those who are not lawful
females.

As for other MtF Crossdressers using male toilets, I know Draq Queens who use them, so why can't a crossdresser?
In fact if I seen a MtF Cder in the toilets making others uncomfortable, I would call security and/or the police myself
because I don't want to lose my rights. So now you have this other problem where transsexuals are going to go out
of their way to ensure their rights are protected against sexual perverts exploiting them.

I don't know where you get your definitions about what a transgender person is, but I can tell you
now you are wrong. I know Drag Queens and female impersonators who don't identify as transgender.

Transgender is a general term applied to a variety of individuals, behaviors, and
groups involving tendencies to vary from culturally conventional gender roles.

Transgender is the state of one's "gender identity" (self-identification as woman, man, neither or both)
not matching one's "assigned sex" (identification by others as male, female or intersex based on physical/genetic sex).

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender

As you can see, the term transgender is clearly defined as a "General term" that covers a number of gender types.

As for you, a crossdresser having a legal female identity, unless you have been diagnosed with Gender Identity Disorder
then the chances are that will never happen. For a start you need letters from medical staff stating that you are under
therapy and treatments, and for how long to be legally recognised as being a female to change gender markers. You can
say that you want a female identity for this reason and that reason, but actions speak louder than words. In other words
you should never be allowed to get a female identity unless you are under therapy & on hormones and living full-time.

You are going to be up against it, because I know many of my transsexual brothers and sisters who are going to make sure
that things stay that way because we have our own rights to look after and to protect those who could become a victim
of a sexual assault by some crossdressing sexual pervert. And no I am NOT saying all crossdressers are sexual perverts.

Remember Crossdressing is an something you do, not a gender identity - so get use to it.

[Melody Moore]

Can any of you point to a single instance where a CDer assaulted or in some way caused someone else harm in the ladies' toilets?

I can show you quite a few instances of these types assaults but why do I need to go and google up the
links just to prove a point because you refuse to accept the truth? We have already been down this road
already but if you insist.... I will be back soon with some links to put an end to this argument once & for all.

Here you go:

Man dressed as woman attacks girl in Manchester

Man dressed as female mannequin found in women's toilets

Men dressed as women charged in Lincoln Park assaults

There was another incident just reported recently where a girl was assaulted by a man dressed as a woman,
but I have to find that link again. But there are many more crossdressing crimes if you want to dig around,
but these recent examples should get my main point across.

[Bree-asaurus]

If you live somewhere where you can have ID that suits your choice of gender then that's great! You are extremely lucky to have such an accepting system and I hope that you appreciate it. I am a crossdresser. I would love to have a bus pass that allowed me to travel en femme without revealing my male identity (it states my name & has a photograph), but that isn't going to happen within the forseeable future. The paperwork/computer/little Hitler won't allow it. I can travel on the bus as male or not travel on the bus.

"suits your choice of gender" ?!?!?!? Are you insane? We don't get a choice! That's the whole point! Maybe you just chose your words poorly...

If you're a male then you don't deserve any form of ID that states you are a female, regardless of what cloths you wear... You need to BE female to get female identification, and you need doctors and therapists to back you up on that.

Sorry you have trouble riding the bus with male identification when you're crossdressing, but you're just going to have to deal with it for now. Hopefully that changes soon, because I hate that we live in a world where people are so callously judged :/

[Melody Moore]

I agree with Bree, the issue is not that you need legal ID to ride the bus dressed as a female, you
just don't need to be questioned for doing that. The same if you go into a male's toilet dressed in
females clothing. You shouldn't be questioned or threatened for doing that when you are a man.

If you are not a female 24/7 in everything you eat, live, breath and sleep, then you have no claims
to having the same legal rights as other cisgendered & transsexual women. If you were in our position
you might feel the same and understand why some of us feel so strongly about protecting what little
rights we do have. The lesbian community here won't accept MtF crossdressers because they are not
females, whereas they will accept us transsexual women with open arms as a sister and I mention this
because this also relates to what some people have said here. If you are a male, you cannot just say
"Ok, now I want to dress up be a girl" and go and violate the privacy of women by invading their space.
I am accepted as a woman by cisgendered women simply because Actions speak louder than words.

[JulieK1980]

BTW the Center on Halsted in Chicago, which serves the LGBT community, ran into issues around T folks using the restrooms. The restrooms are now identified as "male identified" and "female identified" with no mention as to what constitutes appropriate anatomy or clothing or accessories for using the rooms. It seems to work.

Short of staging police officers at every restroom in the country to ID people, I'd say that's really the only logical solution. That and the private "family" restrooms that are popping up all over the country.

[cara]

WTF? Why would anyone nowadays ever use the term "Transsexual". Are we transitioning our genders or our sexuality? If we are transitioning from one gender to another or stuck somewhere in between then wouldn't Transgendered be the most accurate term.
Secondly, I would like to ask the members here how many "Transexuals or Transgendereds out there at one time in their past weren't Crossdressers. I would imagine if we were honest including myself we would have to say yes unless one has a bout of CD Amnesia.
IMHO. From the pantyhose wacker to the Uber fem fully transitioned TG who only continues to stay on this forum
to help the needy, we are on one giant spectrum, labels are our states of denial.
Happy New Year, Cara

[Julia_in_Pa]

Cara,

I was never a cross dresser unless you count the years of torture when I had to wear mens clothing prior to transitioning.

I lived and transitioned in Helena Montana need I say more???

Most transitioned TS women I know prefer the term Transsexual as opposed to transgender for the simple fact that the word transgender has been stolen by every cross dresser, fetish dresser, gender queer and everything and everyone else in a disgusting attempt to gain legitimacy on the backs of the TS/IS community.
As has been well pointed out in previous posts by myself and others we as a community of TS/IS people have to battle a negative perception that the general public has about us due to the transgender umbrella including everything that claims to be gender variant.
This is the reason behind the growing movement by the TS/IS community to separate ourselves in order to keep what little protections we have fought for and to continue our struggle for acceptance within the confines of the general public.

If you as a member of the "transgender" umbrella are not full time then you have no business and no affiliation with us.


Julia

WTF? Why would anyone nowadays ever use the term "Transsexual". Are we transitioning our genders or our sexuality? If we are transitioning from one gender to another or stuck somewhere in between then wouldn't Transgendered be the most accurate term.
Secondly, I would like to ask the members here how many "Transexuals or Transgendereds out there at one time in their past weren't Crossdressers. I would imagine if we were honest including myself we would have to say yes unless one has a bout of CD Amnesia.
IMHO. From the pantyhose wacker to the Uber fem fully transitioned TG who only continues to stay on this forum
to help the needy, we are on one giant spectrum, labels are our states of denial.
Happy New Year, Cara

[Danni Bear]

This is an arguement that has no winners only victims. Transgender, transsexual, or intersexed really makes no dxifferencein gthe long run. We all are just people trying to liv e as best we can. I'll accept aCnyone who fits.without regard to their own self determination or others labeling. This is the best way I have found to live. Let the fighting stop, support each other, and educate the ones who don't know.

Have a happy and blest New Year everybody

Danni Bear

We have enough battles outside our community without internal ones that tend toseperate us from each other.

[Kathy Smith]

Melody: "I don't know where you get your definitions about what a transgender person is, but I can tell you
now you are wrong. I know Drag Queens and female impersonators who don't identify as transgender."

Me:
Sorry, I didn't give a link to the World Health Organisation, who also provided the definition that I used for sex.
http://www.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/
You are welcome to argue it out with them now. ;-)

"Trans is a Latin noun or prefix, meaning "across", "beyond" or "on the opposite side"." is from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans
in other words, it's on Wikipedia so it must be right. :-[

Drag queens and female impersonators don't identify as transgender simply because they aren't and no-one expects them to be. They are obviously male and present as such, so use male facilities. A CD en femme does not present as male and would be putting themselves at risk in using those same facilities. < /me dives for cover. I sense another onslaught coming on>


Bree: ""suits your choice of gender" ?!?!?!? Are you insane? We don't get a choice! That's the whole point! Maybe you just chose your words poorly..."

Yes, sorry, I could have worded it better. "suits your presentation" would have been more accurate. I realise that choice isn't an issue here. Now you're going to get at me by saying that you don't "present" as your gender aren't you? For a fully transitioned TS that would be a fair comment. I was trying to be a bit more general though.

**** Happy New Year Everybody! ****

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Melody -

Thank you for the links, however only one of the three events you cited took place in a public washroom. The man wore a mask(!) and a wig. Yep, sounds like all the crossdressers on this forum, alright.

I certainly stand corrected and am most humbled.

BTW the Center on Halsted in Chicago, which serves the LGBT community, ran into issues around T folks using the restrooms. The restrooms are now identified as "male identified" and "female identified" with no mention as to what constitutes appropriate anatomy or clothing or accessories for using the rooms. It seems to work.

I think this is a reasonable way to handle crossdresser rights.

I don't like the word pervert.
But we all know many crossdressers get off on being in woman's restrooms as part of the experience.
I am sure many crossdressers that don't have sexual reasons would love to disassociate from the group that does..If crossdressers didnt get sexually aroused from it, bathrooms would be much less an issue to many women..

As far your point cara about CD Amnesia, it is a fact..but it's irrelevant, and it makes the point ts women here are making...i certainly identified myself as a crossdresser most of my life, but i had my realization and moved on...
as someone that felt i was crossdressing, and someone that now lives a female life, i know the difference! and the difference sets us apart..
and i'm just gonna say it over and over... i still support cd's and all gender presentations..it's all good. but they are different..

to pink...i agree gender algebra is tiring..and confusion too... that's why i don't want to be any part of it..

Danni...in the long run, we are all dead... so what's your point? we shouldn't live the right way while we are here??

and Kathy, yes drag queens do not self identify as transgender...tell that to my next job interviewee... saying the word "drag queen" for any reason in a job interview is pretty much a death sentence..

[Kristy_K]

I will admit that I was a CD before I transition. When you are a CD you are just fantasizing. Being a IS/TS is not fantasizing but living the realities of life..

And most don't have a clue of what you go through everyday to just to have the right to be yourself and get people to accept you for you.

Not trying to be mean but in my thinking being a CD is just for fun and games for the most part.

When you are a IS/TS it is not a game anymore. It is REALITY.

[Sara Jessica]

Good gosh, how things have degenerated in the last 24 hours.

Kathy, any MtF Crossdresser who does not have female identification should not be allowed in a female toilet. END OF STORY!...As for other MtF Crossdressers using male toilets, I know Draq Queens who use them, so why can't a crossdresser?

Tell me Melody, how do we know who is a CD'er versus who is a TS versus any point in-between when someone recognized as being trans-something is seen entering the women's restroom?

In fact if I seen a MtF Cder in the toilets making others uncomfortable, I would call security and/or the police myself because I don't want to lose my rights.

Knowing that I have used the ladies room frequently over the years with zero issue (not as something on my "to-do" list or a freaky badge of honor of some sort...rather, to simply do what needs to be done in a restroom and then move along), I'm glad that you live on another continent so that I don't have to worry about one of our own calling security on me, or on one of my transsexual friends who short of a check of her ID or what's underneath her skirt you are likely to have NO CLUE about her being and/or identity.

So now you have this other problem where transsexuals are going to go out of their way to ensure their rights are protected against sexual perverts exploiting them.

Ya know, the perverts are very few & far between but they get all the press. Why? They're breaking the law, they're getting caught, and most of all, they're being PERVERTS. The media loves a good pervert story and we all suffer because of them. But to cite their existence as a reason for exclusion, that is just ridiculous. Their existence is soooooooo few and far between.

I don't know where you get your definitions about what a transgender person is, but I can tell you now you are wrong. I know Drag Queens and female impersonators who don't identify as transgender.

Hey, maybe that's why they're all cool with using the men's room.

Can any of you point to a single instance where a CDer assaulted or in some way caused someone else harm in the ladies' toilets?

Yeah, I was having the same exact thought.

I can show you quite a few instances of these types assaults but why do I need to go and google up the links just to prove a point because you refuse to accept the truth? We have already been down this road already but if you insist.... I will be back soon with some links to put an end to this argument once & for all.

Here you go:

(Three links removed so as not to further perpetuate the spin being applied.)

Melody -

Thank you for the links, however only one of the three events you cited took place in a public washroom. The man wore a mask(!) and a wig. Yep, sounds like all the crossdressers on this forum, alright.

Right, these have absolutely nothing to do with supporting the premise that there is some sort of prevalence of "CD'ers" assaulting women in women's restrooms. The dude with the mask is such a stretch, c'mon...you can certainly do better than these three examples.

Most transitioned TS women I know prefer the term Transsexual as opposed to transgender for the simple fact that the word transgender has been stolen by every cross dresser, fetish dresser, gender queer and everything and everyone else in a disgusting attempt to gain legitimacy on the backs of the TS/IS community.

Again, what makes you think every "CD'er, fetish dresser, gender queer and everything and everyone else" is trying to nab your rights??? Your comment is nothing more than hyperbole.

What is illegitimate about the crossdresser desiring the right to dress in a manner contrary to the gender binary society we live in? What is illegitimate about their plight when their chosen method of express bleeds into aspects of their life where their job or ability to obtain housing is threatened?

What is illegitimate about the "gender queer", or perhaps a more respectful term, the androgynous individual? These are also people who might be denied the same rights to housing, job, etc. as the transsexual individual based on how they present themselves to the world.

If you as a member of the "transgender" umbrella are not full time then you have no business and no affiliation with us.

And to think I thought I had already seen the epitome of a condescending comment. There is so much pretentiousness in this statement.

Not only does this statement exclude me from the ranks of your strongest supporters, it also puts me in a position where I have found myself defending those on the CD'er side of the gender continuum who are respectful of both natal women AND those who are full time or transitioning. Yes, I distance myself from anyone who would disrespect any human being by bringing their fetish into any public forum including bringing unwitting third parties into their fantasy and/or perpetrating any sort of violence under cover of a disguise (using this term rather than "under cover of CD'ing" because in the mask example above, a disguise element was much more clear than any sort of gender identity element). But don't we all? Unfortunately, these individuals will never go away despite any efforts to create separatism within our community.

Julia, your words speak of a trans-hierarchy dream that I hope never comes to fruition. The best defense against such perceptions is continued outreach and education along with positive media attention.

[Julia_in_Pa]

Sara,

Please Google transgender vs transsexual and you'll see what the movement to separate is doing.

The reasoning why we have to separate is not so much because of the rest of the transgender umbrella but how the general public views the TS/IS community when it is forced to be included under the transgender umbrella.

Part timer's, cross dressers, gender queer's, fetish dresser's all have an impact on how legislative powers view the full time TS/IS community when it comes to introducing protective bills and ultimately passing those bills into law.

The shared experience of someone who is full time is only with others that are full time.

If you think for one moment that a full time person would not distance themselves from the transgender grouping in order to have laws passed for protection I say your misguided and have been deluded.

You may call me what you wish but the fact remains that full time TS/IS people have to constantly battle perceptions created by the transgender umbrella.

If it came to throwing the transgender umbrella under the bus in order to survive don't you think for one moment that the full time TS/IS community wouldn't do it.

My statement to the umbrella is; Leave us alone!!! Stop associating with us concerning legal matters of survival.
Your so called support does nothing more than legally dilute what the full time person is doing in order to make their lives more livable.

What part of "nothing in common" doesn't the transgender umbrella understand?!?!??!?!?



Julia

[Kristy_K]

Not trying to be mean but in my thinking being a CD is just for fun and games for the most part.

When you are a IS/TS it is not a game anymore. It is REALITY.

I should say that being a CD is NOT fun and games mentally but leaving your house or place of comfort is up to you. The IS/TS has no choice.

[Pythos]

Part timer's, cross dressers, gender queer's, fetish dresser's all have an impact on how legislative powers view the full time TS/IS community when it comes to introducing protective bills and ultimately passing those bills into law.

And once again, we come to the question of rights. Why in the world can the legislative powers NOT just make the rights for all of these groups...even the fetish dresser. As long as their behavior is decent, why not?

Julia, it is funny. You would happily throw me under the bus, just so you can get your rights, where as I would happily throw THE BIGOT denying you rights under the bus.

That is the key. Bigots, and Julia many of the posts you have made have been really really bigoted. It is shocking how full of hate you are, and this Bull^&%it reasoning you have for the continued denial of basic rights for everyone.

Benjiman Frankly said it best that those willing to give up freedom for security, deserve neither. YOU are willing to sacrifice my freedom, my freedom of expression, just so you can have security. YOU Julia, deserve neither. If I were a dummy I would associate all IS individuals with nastiness, meanness, hatred, and so on based on your example of that group.

TSs that are fully transitioned and living as women, to my eyes are no longer trans any thing. But ones in transition, along with Crossdressers, Gender benders, and androgynous people ARE transgendered. If you look at the base meaning of the two parts of the word, you can no longer deny this is the case.

Julia, no offense, if what you have stated in another thread is true, then you, like my girlfriend have NEVER been trans anything. You just are....and frankly I wish that was how all human beings were. (by the way this is the case even if you had to live as a male. My GF was made to do the same, as well as have "M" on her ID. She has one ID that has "F", and one that had "m". The one for the states is "m". But she lives as a female. She herself will say she is NOT trans anything)

[Julia_in_Pa]

Pythos,

Because of me transitioning puts me squarely in the fight.

Do you know why I'm able to live my life as my true self?

It's because I'm a royal C**T that's why.

I refuse to back down to anything and ultimately I come out ahead of the game.

If that means I have to walk away from everyone else in order to live another day then you better bet your life I will do it and have done it.

I didn't ask for this life sentence but because of who I am I've been able to claw out a life for myself.

I will stand here and bully who I need to in order to provide for myself.

Only the strong survive this . I don't have to provide suicide statistics everyone already knows the rate.

The odd thing is a certain percentage of the transgender crowd thinks that full time TS and IS people are connected to them due to whatever delusion they suffer from.

The brutal truth is that we left quite sometime ago.

Read the posts from the full time crowd here in this thread and you'll understand.
I'm more outspoken about it because frankly I'm a real bitch.


Julia

[Sara Jessica]

Sara,

Please Google transgender vs transsexual and you'll see what the movement to separate is doing.

I have been well aware of this fringe separatist movement for quite some time, thank you. My knowledge on these things doesn't begin and end on this message board site.

The reasoning why we have to separate is not so much because of the rest of the transgender umbrella but how the general public views the TS/IS community when it is forced to be included under the transgender umbrella.

I thought the reasoning was that the TS/IS community has NOTHING in common with anyone or any behavior described by said umbrella? (reference: your final point within your last post) Which is it?

My point has never wavered, that the general public has zero clue about what said umbrella means. The average person see us and comes to their own conclusion based upon their experiences with our community, or absolute lack thereof which is more often the case. Therefore, they fall back on media portrayals which often lead to the negative stereotypes you are rightfully fighting against.

Part timer's, cross dressers, gender queer's, fetish dresser's all have an impact on how legislative powers view the full time TS/IS community when it comes to introducing protective bills and ultimately passing those bills into law.

And a movement to distance yourselves will have most of it's impact within our community and very little impact on those legislative powers. Lawmakers are people just as I described above. They will rely upon what they know and understand short of being set straight through education. Like Kaitlyn's situation (and I hope I'm paraphrasing this correctly), she really hates that she has to educate anyone on the difference between the CD'er and the fully transitioned woman but sometimes it is a necessary evil.

Separatism is not going to bring about some sort of magical enlightenment on the part of the Muggles, whether they are lawmakers or not. Sometimes you just have to suck it up and provide a little education as a foundation in order to make your point towards gaining rights, changing laws, etc. I simply don't see that changing.

The shared experience of someone who is full time is only with others that are full time.

That I cannot argue with.

Just as I can tweak the sentence to fit my situation...

The shared experience of someone who is on a middle path is only with others that are also on a middle path.

This doesn't give me any right to exclude my middle path existence from the undeniable similarities between myself and others who might be described as being transgendered. Just like the transsexual woman, I too identify in this manner. But just like the part-time crossdresser who might venture out of the personal confines of their home, part of my personal therapy is to have to opportunity to simply be myself, perhaps in a public environment whether for hours or days at a time. I therefore have elements in comment with others who are clearly on a different path than I.

In my travels, I have been mistaken by others as being part of both the TS and CD camps. Do I throw a fit, grabbing my toys in an attempt to play elsewhere, alone? Not a chance. I simply educate the person I am communicating with on the differences within our community. Really, it's not that difficult.

If you think for one moment that a full time person would not distance themselves from the transgender grouping in order to have laws passed for protection I say your misguided and have been deluded.

Like I said, distance yourself all you want by way of education. That is the only way any meaningful change will be accomplished. Some rights you fight for may prove to be only applicable to those who are full time. But just as others will bleed into other states of transgendered expression, the bra-wearing-guy's employment issue could have the same effect, bleeding into areas which will affect the full time person. You can choose to distance yourself from his fight but absent active participation in such potential litigation, you will be forced to live with the potential of bad case law that could result and you would have only yourself to blame.

You may call me what you wish but the fact remains that full time TS/IS people have to constantly battle perceptions created by the transgender umbrella.

Sorry, the umbrella did nothing to create perceptions. You are giving it way too much credibility.

If it came to throwing the transgender umbrella under the bus in order to survive don't you think for one moment that the full time TS/IS community wouldn't do it.

It amounts to cutting off your nose to spite your face.

My statement to the umbrella is; Leave us alone!!! Stop associating with us concerning legal matters of survival.
Your so called support does nothing more than legally dilute what the full time person is doing in order to make their lives more livable.

I'm still waiting to hear what legal matters of survival is being affected by any of us outside of full-time status. What rights are us "others" actively fighting for that dilutes your valiant efforts?

Is it the fact I use a public restroom that matches up with my presentation?

Is it the oft-discussed fitting room issue?

Is it the fact that bra-wearing-guy can choose to file an employment discrimination lawsuit because his job was threatened by his simple act of wearing a bra underneath his outer clothing?

Or is it that everyone who is not in an exalted full-time status should keep their gender expression at home, safely locked away in the closet, lest their public existence somehow harm those who are full-time.

Julia, you are acting like there is some conspiracy within our community to co-op "your" rights when the fact of the matter is that the conspiracy lies entirely outside of our boundaries in the form of an uneducated (or mis-educated) public or worse yet, something outside of any of our control by way of the absolutely minimal criminal element which tends to get the press.

What part of "nothing in common" doesn't the transgender umbrella understand?!?!??!?!?

Nothing, eh? Geez.

[Julia_in_Pa]

Proof is when I had to discuss with the legislative body in Harrisburg concerning gender marker changes for Full time TS/IS people.

The general consensus was that if the state allowed this that cross dressers,gender queer's, etc would also have access to change their gender marker based on fetish.

TS/IS representatives along with others had to add that gender markers only be available to full time trans people after a medical doctor signed the affidavit.

A state representative asked the question " where does it stop? " He was leary due to what he had been educated on concerning the entire transgender umbrella.

We as a group had to officially distance ourselves from the transgender umbrella in order to show differences.

It is because of this that we were able to have gender marker protection in the state of Pennsylvania.

Also take a look at the new Massachusetts gender protection law.
As good as it is it is missing one key component that would be all inclusive and that is bathroom usage.

Do you know why it was ultimately removed from the bill? Because the state legislature believed that everyone including men in dresses would be able to use the women's facilities.

They believed the lies of the Massachusetts Family Institute that said that any man dressed as a woman would be able to walk into the women's restroom and molest children.

This did noting but hurt the full time trans community.

This sends the message that you better damn well pass in order to use the women's facilities or else place your life in physical as well as legal danger.

Do I need to go on because I can and I will.

Just let us alone and everyone will be just fine.


Julia

[Julia_in_Pa]

And another thing; I lost everything and everyone due to transition. Angry? Damn right! Bitter? Hell yes!

I'm tired and I sure as hell don't need any person demanding anything else from me.

I paid the price and then some to be where I'm at today and I don't need anyone attempting to cling onto my coat tales, I just dont.

I'm exhausted, my health is crap and my life is shortened from five years of living as my true self.

No one knows my battles except those that have walked this walk of death.

Those are the one's I need around me.


Julia