There is your difference!Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele
Heh...if I walked in and said fix it, the mechanic would smile to himself, take my car for three days and charge me $5999 and say "I fixed it"
There is your difference!
It's Frances with an E, like Frances Farmer. Francis is a man's name.
So, off to the terms races! Some possibilities include ...
1) Transgender: transgender as umbrella, spectrum excluding transsexual, transgender AS transsexual (only), spectrum excluding male-identifying crossdressers, mid identity spectrum only (excluding behavior-focused crossdressing and transsexuals), ...
2) Crossdresser: crossdresser comprehensive (including TS - THAT should rightly tick someone off!), crossdresser excluding TS, crossdresser excluding non male-identifying, crossdresser including fetishists but excluding drag, ...
Mathematically, the number of possible pairs are already ridiculous and the definition possibilties are incomplete (if not capable of being infinitely sliced and diced). It's a good thing people like to feel unique, because we've certainly created ample opportunity to discern our differences, real and/or imagined.
Wait! I forgot to toss in physical considerations! Genetic variations, intersex, brain sex, hormones and conditions (e.g., CAIS), etc. What about qualitative vs. quantitative differences ... can we talk levels here? How about preferences and roles? And let's not forget generational views - after all, maybe some of us older types are too insistent on exclusive definitions while the youth are happy with gender queer and being transgenderists. Heck, why not add aptitude in there too ... after all, if one isn't suited to be a transsexual, transgender, crossdresser, etc., should one be pigeonholed into a definition ... I mean ... really? Think of the permutations! God, no wonder this never ends!
FWIW, MY view is this: Taken as identity only and with no umbrellas involved, crossdressER (not crossdressING) and transgender are mutually-exclusive. To me, transgender for a natal male starts at the point where primary male gender identity ends. That's it. Beyond that, I do use the terms in different ways in different contexts, including the much-unloved umbrella usages. Using my own approach, I see a critical, non-exclusive gender identity difference between transgender and transsexual in that the latter must minimally have a primarily female gender identity. And that's it for that (for me). No insistence on SRS, transition, etc. for the basic TS definition. I see TG and TS as overlapping, but that overlap clearly ends when you get to the TS who DOES transition.
Lea
Thank you for your post Lea,
Transsexuals & intersex have been poked and prodded, diagnosed and misdiagnosed, labelled and mislabelled
more than any other gender variants in the sex and gender diverse spectrum that some here call "transgender".
Medical experts or any other person who attempts to define us will never be successful because only we can
define ourselves and I wish that is something that some people could get into their heads. For some transgender
people such as a crossdresser being trangender is just all make believe and all just a fantasy. However for some
transgender people such as a transsexual, it is much more than that. There is this definite feeling that your body
does not match how you feel and this is a feeling that goes right to the core of who you are when you are a
transsexual. It is not a nice feeling to have and it usually means that you have a very tough life ahead of you
this is something else that clearly separates us from others such as crossdressers in the transgender spectrum.
"Judging a person does not define who they are - it defines who you are"
"Don't be so Serious, if you can't laugh at yourself, call me....... I'll laugh at you!"
"Haters don't really hate you, they hate themselves, because you are a reflection of what they want to be"
"The most happiest people in this world don't need the best of everything, they just make the best of everything"'
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So just to be clear, what you are saying is that until you actually live full time as a woman you are not transsexual?
Is there no transsexual classification before RLE? Anyone moving toward and through a transition with a goal to live full time as a woman is not transsexual?
Knowing you are a woman but you were born male bodied means you're transgender and are no different than a crossdresser who knows he is a man but dresses as a woman? I am more confused that I thought!!
K
Born female intended
" Don't die with your music still in you!"
Kelsy, if you are not living fulltime, then it is very hard to convince a transsexual that you
are truly transsexual because it is obvious you can be comfortable living who you are & I
know that personally I cannot be comfortable living that way. Before I transitioned I could
not expect others to take me serious if I was to say that I was a transsexual. That is why
I never made these claims to my ex-girlfriends when I told them other aspects of who I was
and my sexuality. I use to tell my girlfriends that "I felt like a lesbian in a male body". But how
could I expect them to take me seriously when I was not living full-time already as a female?
"Judging a person does not define who they are - it defines who you are"
"Don't be so Serious, if you can't laugh at yourself, call me....... I'll laugh at you!"
"Haters don't really hate you, they hate themselves, because you are a reflection of what they want to be"
"The most happiest people in this world don't need the best of everything, they just make the best of everything"'
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This entire thread sort of contradicts that statement. As a whole, we seem just as inept at labeling ourselves as historically, the medical community has.
No Melody I totally get that, but You knew you were a woman before you lived full time no??
and I would never say to anyone I am a woman unless I was living as one But transition is a process
is it not. Did you consider yourself trangendered before you lived full time? or did you know you were a woman?
I hate labels by the way and the semantic arguments don't get me were I need to go!
Born female intended
" Don't die with your music still in you!"
Kelsy, I did everything I could to avoid having the transsexual label applied to me despite
the fact I knew I was a female and was very different. I even tried to convince myself that
I was just a closeted crossdresser at one point for a couple of weeks or so. This was despite
the fact that wearing female clothes just felt right for me and I felt like I was cross-dressing
as a male. The first step in my affirmation to become a transsexual woman who was transitioning
was to change my name. So I clearly identify as a female. If you haven't changed your name
then you have not legally affirmed your true identity as the woman you claim you are.
Being transsexual is defined as:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TranssexualismTranssexualism is an individual's identification with a gender inconsistent or not culturally associated with his or her biological sex. Simply put, it defines a person whose biological birth sex conflicts with his or her psychological gender. A medical diagnosis can be made if a person experiences discomfort as a result of a desire to be a member of the opposite sex, or if a person experiences impaired functioning or distress as a result of that gender identification.
So do you experience major problems, such as impaired functioning or distress as a result of how you
have been defined in your sex/gender identification? If so and you haven't started RLE and changed
your name, then you have no way of legally affirming who you claim to be. And that is why Kate says
those that claim they are a woman but haven't taken any steps towards transition are just dreamers
because for a start nothing about who they claim to be is "in fact" in any legal sense.
"Judging a person does not define who they are - it defines who you are"
"Don't be so Serious, if you can't laugh at yourself, call me....... I'll laugh at you!"
"Haters don't really hate you, they hate themselves, because you are a reflection of what they want to be"
"The most happiest people in this world don't need the best of everything, they just make the best of everything"'
Find me on Facebook
When the heck did this ever become about proof of being trans? Transition is not all or nothing in a flash (despite what Kate may say) and it is definitely not something to be jumped into.
By your definition you don't see me as a trans woman because I haven't changed my name or had GRS or what-have-you. I don't want to put up strawman arguments but that's definitely what you seem to be implying.
I'm following the path, personally, and jeopardizing the livelihood of my family and kids. I do know that you have to risk everything. But this is coming close to denying people their identities.
I really think this thread has deteriorated into something ugly.
Life inside the music box ain't easy
The malots hit the gears are always turning
And everyone inside the mechanism
Is yearning
To get out
http://sandra-absent.blogspot.com
Kristin,
This is exactly why there is the term transgender.
I'm not saying your not trans anything but if your not full time there is a large ethereal gulf between the world of full time TS/IS people and where you currently exist.
I realize your watching out for your family and I respect that but that is your choice and your reality.
Those that have had to move on either had no family or as in my case lost their family.
You have not reached the tipping point that dictates that you either transition or your family finds you dead as was my case.
Like I said I respect your decision but it boils down to exactly that your decision.
Because of that decision you remain part time and because of that status you belong within the confines of the umbrella until that point in time that you either transition or remain where your currently at.
Julia
Julia,
I totally understand where you're coming from. I'm past that tipping point and have already done a year and a half of antidepressantsBUT thanks to my spouse sticking with me, I can take it more slowly. Only been on hormones for 3 months.
I would never say I had transitioned and have much respect for those of you who have. I unfortunately got annoyed that some here might deny my being transsexual.
Kristin,
I understand your pain and depression on a very deep level.
here's to you finding peace and understanding sister.
God bless
Julia
I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything my only concern is to get the therapy I desperately need, and to follow the advice of my therapist and doctors and to negotiate my transition. I will ask for support and I might get some but I get a lot of rejection that is not new to me. It doesn’t matter who believes me, what matters is getting through this mess alive with some dignity intact. I am not interested in joining a hierarchy I'm interested in finding people who genuinely care!
Thanks K
Born female intended
" Don't die with your music still in you!"
I just got what you have been saying now. I can be dense sometimes. gah! Kate thank you for being being yourself and the inspiration you and a few others have been to me.
Add me to facebook if you want: http://www.facebook.com/hobbitprincess
"Never thought I would be here, so high in the air
This is my unanswered prayer
Defined by another, so much wasted time
Out of the darkness, each breath that I take will be mine." -Waterproof Blondes, "Just Close Your Eyes"
Oops....I missed a double negative!!!...sorry....I meant the opposite of what I said!!.. Arghhh....sorry for the confusion
Clearly not all transsexuals transition..
Last edited by Kaitlyn Michele; 01-05-2012 at 10:39 PM.
Regardless of who they can convince, they are what they are. People can live(for a while anyway) in denial, that doesn't mean that they aren't transsexual. You don't suddenly become transsexual when you go full time, you are born that way. Just because you scrape by(for a while) doesn't mean you are comfortable living that way.
Last edited by Amber99; 01-05-2012 at 10:43 PM.
That was confusing me a little too. I already knew you usually made tons of sense, especially with the Skyrim playing
I dont think I or anyone else would deny you or anyone else who tells me they are TS but appears to be a guy. I only say that I do not take anyone seriously till a certain number of events take place. As was stated earlier the trans community is filled with people that never transition. Till you take that step of transitioning and then making goals and following through with them there is no point for me to take you or anyone else seriously. I always knew I was a girl since the day I can remember but a big part of transition is putting your money where your mouth is and going for it and doing what you have to do to prove you are what you say you are.
Finally you mentioned duress to your family and kids. Well sweety we all go through this. Thousands have done it before you and lived through the process. Dont think your situation is unique because it is NOT.
Katie
That was confusing me a little too. I already knew you usually made tons of sense, especially with the Skyrim playing
We use our brains to talk about gender but rarely talk about brain gender. We are too busy measuring our genitals (usually against the wrong people) to notice that our brains are gender organs too and that they can vary in graduated dimorphic aspects from unambiguously masculine to unambiguously feminine. Since we can't inspect each other's brains, it's hard to say who has the brain that fits them best.
Some people have minor incongruities in the total combination of their gender characteristics. It's not unreasonable to think that crossdressers are such people, and that crossdressing helps them cope with their biological conflicts.
Some people have major incongruities in the total combination of their gender characteristics. It's not unreasonable to think that transsexuals are such people, and that having sex change surgeries helps them cope with their biological conflicts.
Cisgender people don't suffer from any type of personal gender conflict and don't use opposite gender clothing or opposite gender surgery to cope with their biological status.
Every transgender person has gender conflicts and suffers from them. We can argue about who has the biggest and best conflicts or suffers the most, but that seems kind of stupid to me. It keeps us from seeing the forest for the trees. Together, we represent the larger truth about humanity that subtypical gender diversity is natural and gender minorities exist in a wide range of manifestations. If this truth doesn't get told then all of us will continue to be freaks to most people and none of us will get the respect and social equality we deserve.
I am fully aware of the fact that people are transsexual from birth, however you cannot convince me or a lot of other
people you are truly a transsexual if you don't take any action about it. As Kate point out lots of people talk about it,
but they don't actually do it. So there is no fact to back up who they claim to be. Just like I could not convince my
partners I was a "Lesbian in a male body" before transitioning. They all take me very seriously now & know I was telling
the truth the whole time. Until I started my RLE & changed my name & gender markers I simply couldn't validate being
a "transsexual women". So I can understand this mindset that until you do, you are 'transgendered" but there is no clear
definition until you take action to prove that you are not one of the other gender variants in the transgender spectrum.
And this is why changing your name & gender markers and living full-time as a female are considered the first step in
affirming your true gender identity. And that is just a small step in the process, there is a lot more than that involved.
Last edited by Melody Moore; 01-06-2012 at 05:56 AM.
"Judging a person does not define who they are - it defines who you are"
"Don't be so Serious, if you can't laugh at yourself, call me....... I'll laugh at you!"
"Haters don't really hate you, they hate themselves, because you are a reflection of what they want to be"
"The most happiest people in this world don't need the best of everything, they just make the best of everything"'
Find me on Facebook
This is quite true Amber however the experience of the closeted TS is very different than the experience of the full time woman.
The life experience is totally different..but i don't think its right to say that a person who ends up living a male life is NOT transsexual.. ( i know april you didnt say that!..just adding to your comment)
Certainly there are many people that are fantasizing they are ts...but in my opinion, that is mostly a message board phenomena, where people can exaggerate and lie with no consequence..
Just because so many of us have either known from our first remembrance and transitioned at first opportunity, or suffered greatly before succumbing to transition, doesn't mean that other ts people are trying to get through life as a male for whatever reason... many transsexuals are stuck in the endless loop (an excellent analogy)
BTW...i know this is a beat up topic..BUT
I think it's very appropriate here to share experience with those folks to help them understand how incredible it is to successfully transition, and its also helpful (altho some people around here hate it..) to be brutally honest about what is and what isn't TS ...the best case scenario for any confused person is to meet alot of ts people face to face and get a best understanding of what it's like...that is not always possible, and so many people come here to talk about this topic... threads go wherever they go, and they often get repeated, but i bet there are 100 people that read this topic for the first time and got alot out of it..
Very good commentary Kaitlyn!
Just call Me: "W - O - M - A - N"
As King said: "I'm free at last, I'm free at last.
Thank God Almighty I'm free at last!"
And what about primary versus secondary transsexuals, some find a division there and theories of full
androgenization and partial androgenization. Do you have to know at three years old that you are transsexual.
Many struggle for years and years not knowing what is wrong, or they misdiagnose themselves as being gay or perverted etc and when they finally get the information they need they have one of those " that's it" moments.
I think the most important step is to have a good gender therapist (one who is not in it for the money)who will make a solid evaluation and it is incumbant on the individual to be ruthlessly honest with ones self. Do you want to be or are you?? Not to be taken lightly!! Come to think of it if you really ask that question of yourself, you know !I would not for an instant know what living full time is actually like no one can take away the experience from those whom transition is a total reality but who could blame me for trying to find my way with the wisdom of those who have gone before!
Last edited by Kelsy; 01-06-2012 at 10:20 AM.
Born female intended
" Don't die with your music still in you!"
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