Fetish CDs.....why the stigma, and near hatred?

[Pythos]

I have seen posts here concerning part time or near full time cders not being good for the whole TG envelope. I have seen some rather ugly and hateful comments that also include exclusion of certain people due to the fact they are not full time.

One group that is really Ostrasized is the so called fetish cross dresser. Now for this thread I am going to exclude the hairy panty wearers that you see on Flickr, or the really awful insults to women that some men do when they CD. Also too I am going to exclude those men who's soul reason for cding is to ...jack off in women's underwear.

So the sort of fetish dressers I am going to include are ones that indeed DO derive some sort of sensuous pleasure from the clothing of the opposite sex. But when doing so, they present in a respectable manner.

I have a feeling for some I fit this category. I will not deny the fact I absolutely love the feel of having freshly shaved legs slowly and carefully covered by a pair of pantyhose or tights. I will not say that I do not derive some kind of pleasure from the feel of a tight skirt hugging my body as I dance in my clubs. I will also admit I love the feel of long hair swishing behind me as I walk to the clubs, or with my GF.

There is also the fact that when getting dressed for all intents and purposes I do get turned on. By the thought of my GF watching me get ready.

Now for others I am sure there are similarities as well as differences in how you derive sensuous pleasure from the clothing we so love.

What I would like to know is....why is this so bad? I know of GGs that get off from the squeeze of a corset. I know others that get turned on by the feel of garters and stockings.

The fact is "feminine" clothing IS sensuous. It is soft, or sleek, form fitting, or a combination of all.

I do not understand how the respectable presentation by a so called fetish dresser is a bad thing for the advancement of TG rights. I personally do not see it as such. I think it is us humans experiencing through material sensations that the creator allowed us to have...and then some silly sods said it is a sin to experience.

[suzy1]

I will start off by saying that I ask myself the same question as you Pythos.
I hate prejudice!

But having said that, are there many here that show such hatred? If there are then I have missed most of them.

No matter what we do or how we act in this life, if it’s not hurting anyone then it’s surely O.K.

Anyone tells me that what I do is a sin then the P.M. they will get from me will be X rated!



SUZY

[Kelly DeWinter]

Pythos, I think you have answered some of your own questions.

I have seen posts here concerning part time or near full time cders not being good for the whole TG envelope. I have seen some rather ugly and hateful comments that also include exclusion of certain people due to the fact they are not full time.

Everyone idetifies with certian socal groups and have preconcieved notions about what other's outside of that group should behave like.

One group that is really Ostrasized is the so called fetish cross dresser. Now for this thread I am going to exclude the hairy panty wearers that you see on Flickr, or the really awful insults to women that some men do when they CD. Also too I am going to exclude those men who's soul reason for cding is to ...jack off in women's underwear.

By excluding and including groups you are setting up the thread for a preconcieved opinion (which you have the right to)

So the sort of fetish dressers I am going to include are ones that indeed DO derive some sort of sensuous pleasure from the clothing of the opposite sex. But when doing so, they present in a respectable manner.

I have a feeling for some I fit this category. I will not deny the fact I absolutely love the feel of having freshly shaved legs slowly and carefully covered by a pair of pantyhose or tights. I will not say that I do not derive some kind of pleasure from the feel of a tight skirt hugging my body as I dance in my clubs. I will also admit I love the feel of long hair swishing behind me as I walk to the clubs, or with my GF.

There is also the fact that when getting dressed for all intents and purposes I do get turned on. By the thought of my GF watching me get ready.

Now for others I am sure there are similarities as well as differences in how you derive sensuous pleasure from the clothing we so love.

What I would like to know is....why is this so bad? I know of GGs that get off from the squeeze of a corset. I know others that get turned on by the feel of garters and stockings.

The fact is "feminine" clothing IS sensuous. It is soft, or sleek, form fitting, or a combination of all.

To you and a small group of people it is, Ask most GG's and depending on their age clothing is NOT sensuous (I refer to other posts here).

I do not understand how the respectable presentation by a so called fetish dresser is a bad thing for the advancement of TG rights. I personally do not see it as such. I think it is us humans experiencing through material sensations that the creator allowed us to have...and then some silly sods said it is a sin to experience.

I can't disagree that if you believe in a creator, then it's easy to believe that our senses were created as good. People of faith actually do not disagree with you in that aspect. What they will say is that because of sin what was created in perfection has been corrupted and used for less then perfect purposes.

I for one believe that people are sensual and as long as what two consenting adults do as long as it is legal is OK. I might not personaly agree with it, but I don't have the right to tell someone what to do.

Kelly

[Lucy_Bella]

Well said Pythos,

I myself find the sensation of the opposite sex a turn on ,rather it be with or without them present ( rather them with ) .. I love everything about the opposite sex ,feeling the long soft hair and skin embraced upon my skin right down to how their clothing is designed to reveal their sexual attributes that attracts me to emulate that sensation.

I do not find any type of masculinity attractive, so call me a " perv " if it pleases you. Nothing beats a GG and I have a fetish for the girly girl type right down to the way they dress ,it's is and has been a complete turn on for me..

[Badtranny]

Well you know I dig you Pythos even though we couldn't be more different in our goals. I find you to be generally very clever and insightful and that's pretty much all I care about in forum friends.

I envy your youth and opportunities and I think the only thing we would disagree on is your place on the TG spectrum. We've had a few PM chats and I know you're not TS bound, but I wouldn't call you a fetish CD either. I think you have a public presentation that is very natural for you and it's more of an edgier, authentic look, then the average CD who tries to approximate a woman.

All you need to do now is relax the rigid boundary between your personal and professional lives. Having a discreet personal life is different than hiding. You can either own it or be ashamed of it, and I know which way you're going albeit at your own pace.

So I think the premise of your question is wrong. You're not a "fetish" dresser, just because you're a lil freaky. ;-)

[MsJanessa]

You're right---some of the ladies here have voiced disapproval of fetish type CDers---similar to some who have disapproved of gay or bi cders--I used to notice that alot more when I started posting here in 2006--doesn't seem as common now. But you are right, for many of us there is a sexual/sensous element to our dressing and that is a big reason why we do it. Others don't seem either to have that feeling or are reluctant to acknoledge it if they do and for some reason tend to dump on those of us who have those feelings

[docrobbysherry]

Altho this topic HAS been bantered about many times, I do think it's a very important subject for many dressers! Because at one time or another, ALMOST every CD/TG/TS has been turned on by some aspects of dressing!

But, Pythos, on the one hand, u deplore that so called fetish dressers r "ostrasized". On the other, u deplore "jacking off in women's drawers". I'm sorry, but u CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS!
"Fetish" means some sexual activity is involved. But, I guess you've progressed PAST the "jacking off" stage? Sounds A LOT like so many of the TG/TSs that u r condemning in your post, doesn't it?

Maybe you're part of the PROBLEM?

Personally, I think I understand EXACTLY where the fetish "ostrasizers" r coming from! The ONE reason I don't feel I can tell anyone about my CDing, and the ONE aspect that still causes me guilt, is my SEXUAL involvement! And, it has nothing what so ever to do with religion.
Once I moved past having sex while dressed, I'd probably want to quickly forget that stage of my CDing, too! But, I don't think I'd EVER throw stones at anyone who combines dressing with sex!

[Miranda-E]

I do not understand how the respectable presentation by a so called fetish dresser is a bad thing for the advancement of TG rights. I personally do not see it as such. I think it is us humans experiencing through material sensations that the creator allowed us to have...and then some silly sods said it is a sin to experience.

a respectable presentation and respectable actions while presenting never hurts the cause or is a bad thing.
Respectable presentation can cover a lot of ground. the obvious "man in the dress" buying his groceries does nothing to hurt the advancement of TG right. The passing unless you really look woman going off her nut screaming "you just got beat up by a tranny" on film DOES hurt us all.
There is a level of fetish that needs to be left home, don't scare the straits at walmart.

I know one woman that wears a collar 24/7. I have never seen her without it in 5 years, not always the same physical item around her neck, but its a collar no ifs ands or buts about it. Sometimes its a very attractive "dress collar". There is nowhere I'd be uncomfortable going with her.

[Stephenie S]

Well I don't read every post here, but I am not so sure that this is really a problem. Do we really have people putting others down for, as doc says, "mixing dressing and sex"? I don't see it that much.

If it IS a problem then we should all reject it. No one should throw those sorts of stones. I agree with the OP. Women's clothes can be very sensual.

S

[Badtranny]

Personally, I think I understand EXACTLY where the fetish "ostrasizers" r coming from! The ONE reason I don't feel I can tell anyone about my CDing, and the ONE aspect that still causes me guilt, is my SEXUAL involvement! And, it has nothing what so ever to do with religion.

Doc, this makes me sad. I'm not going to lie and say I empathize or understand you because I don't. I will say that unlike MANY others on this board you have always "kept your story straight". As far as I can tell, you've always been honest about who you are (to the forum) and even though I'm sometimes baffled by what you say, I would never (and have never) given you or the others a hard time for being Fet Cd's. How you get your freak on is really and truly none of my business.

For you, I honestly wish you could get past this guilt thing. It's totally pointless and unproductive and you don't deserve it.

To get back to the OP's question; I will say that I have an issue with the Fet's that won't admit it or try to pass themselves off as something else. Let's get real, grown men (who identify as men) love "working" with their hands if you know what I mean and I can hardly imagine a CD'r NOT getting a little excited with even a tiny bit of feminine expression. Last time I checked straight men are attracted to femininity.

Doc, in my considered opinion, you and yours are the truth and a HUGE number of others around here are full of crap.

[Piora]

Altho this topic HAS been bantered about many times, I do think it's a very important subject for many dressers! Because at one time or another, ALMOST every CD/TG/TS has been turned on by some aspects of dressing!

This is very true, Sherry. Up until about 6 months ago, this was my scenario - I was a fetish crossdresser. For me, it was strictly some type of underwear....panties, stockings, garter belt etc. And dressing that way was for the sole purpose of sexual gratification. I never wanted to dress in skirts, tops, or use a wig or makeup. And I'd always want to immediately get out of my female things afterward.

"Fetish" means some sexual activity is involved. But, I guess you've progressed PAST the "jacking off" stage? Sounds A LOT like so many of the TG/TSs that u r condemning in your post, doesn't it?

Once I moved past having sex while dressed, I'd probably want to quickly forget that stage of my CDing, too! But, I don't think I'd EVER throw stones at anyone who combines dressing with sex!

It was the same for me, as well. I moved past it too....and started wearing skirts, tops and shoes...as well as a wig and using makeup. Now, my motivation for dressing is for the pleasure of feeling feminine and pretty, and while, as you say Sherry, there is often SENSUALITY - there is no SEXUAL aspect for me anymore. Now, I like the way I look and feel when fully dressed, and that is what gives me the most pleasure.

[GBJoker]

Because it's bugging me so much, and that is because my Human Sexuality teacher drilled it into my head...

It's called "transvestite." It's a valid medical and psychological term. And most importantly of all, it's okay to use it, and people should use it when describing this phenomenon, and discussing it.

There is also a psychological term for people who can only "get off" with a certain item, in this case, women's underwear... But... I resold my book to the college and can't look it up as easily as I want to.

I got no problems with transvestites. It would go against my political and religious beliefs to say anything else.

The problem I've noticed with transgenders and transexuals attitudes towards transvestites seems to be the same as the attitude straights and gays/lesbians have towards bisexuals. A transvestite isn't really part of the "group." Therefore, since we have reached the mentality (about 90-150 years ago, depending on who you talk to) of defining "us" as "not them," instead of "us" by "x," there will be flames and anger towards other groups and demographics. A bisexual, for example, is always seen as being a freak riding the fence, not having the guts to choose one side or the other. A transvestite is seen as... Riding the fence, but in a way that's breaking the fence, which is why people have problems with it. Unfortunately, this image of destroying the fence is nothing more than imagination, especially since most people don't realise just exactly how many transvestites there are in the country/world.

As Miranda-E says, the stuff in the media is far worse for the image and representation of the transgendered and transexual community than what some random individual does in his/her private time.

If you just switch the appropriate words in my post, you'll see that the same arguement can be made for ANY sexual fetish.

[ReineD]

What I would like to know is....why is this so bad? I know of GGs that get off from the squeeze of a corset. I know others that get turned on by the feel of garters and stockings.

The fact is "feminine" clothing IS sensuous. It is soft, or sleek, form fitting, or a combination of all.

I can't speak much about the eroticism of dressing in feminine clothing that a genetic male experiences, but I can speak about what women feel when they wear sexy things.

First, let's make allowances for age. I'm not in my 20s anymore and although I do feel erotic, it is not the same as when I was younger. But ... allowing for young women who are learning about their sexuality, generally when we wear sexy things it is not the things in themselves (corsets, nylons, panties, racy bras, etc), that do it for us. It is the idea that we "look" sexy enough to appeal to a partner. In other words, a woman will become aroused just like a guy will, her fantasies will run to having sex with a partner, and she will put on the things that would excite him. In her mind, she becomes the woman that HE cannot resist, and she has fantasies or driving him wild with desire.

Men are visual, and they like to look at sexy women when they are aroused. Women know this, and they like to look sexy when THEY feel aroused, in order to attract the men. Yin and yang.

Most women (unless they have a super high libido), will not become aroused just by putting on sexy things, if they're not aroused already.

---------------------------

As to your question about why fetish CDers are looked down upon, I should think this is only in forums where there are many "identity" crossdressers and transsexuals who are trying to be accepted for who they are and who dislike to be associated with the public's view that crossdressers are fetishistics perverts. We do live in a puritanical society, unfortunately.

If you went to a site strictly for men who dress for sexual pleasure and there were no members who did this to express a feminine identity, I don't think you'd be vilified.

[AllieSF]

Pythos, I have seen some of the threads and posts that you reference. I must say, however, that they are in the minority and to me, only pop up occasionally here. When they do, there will be a lot of replies that clearly rebut the other's point of view. Some of these are dress your age, dress appropriately, and then the ones referencing a news article about someone who takes their unique way of dressing, like the guy who flew in a bikini, out in public. We all have opinions here that vary all over the place. I personally applaud the extremists for making my life when out a lot easier, in that I think that people are more than happy to see me after seeing one of the extreme dressers, or like at the SF Pride festivities, after seeing one of the few nude men who walk around the big crowds.

You used the word "ostracized". I disagree with you. In general, there are more people defending our rights to wear what we want compared to those prefer not to see it, whether they say it directly or indirectly in their posts. In my opinion, no one has been ostracized from this site because of that, unless it was for breaking the sites rules and regulations. Many of your threads seem to be directed at the non-acceptance of others to the way that we, and maybe more specifically, to the way that you dress. I will repeat what I have seen others reply to you about that. Pythos, you just need to "own" how you dress in front of others when out in the real world. If that is how you want to dress, then do it. Except for the work place, you can dress as you want and be yourself and should be.

People on this site have opinions that may or may not be accepted by someone else. We just need to remember that they are that person's opinion and probably, in most instances, do not truly represent the opinions of the majority here and in the real world outside of this site. Always remember, that if we dress differently than the general public for people in our age group and income status, we will be looked at quite frequently. That is human nature to notice that which is not common to one's own experiences. The first goth dressed people I saw were stared at by me. One reason obviously was that their dress style was very new to me. The other was to look at all their piercings, studded collars and cuffs and to see the detail of their presentations. My initial thoughts were probably, "Wow, that looks weird!". So, what. I wasn't thinking nor saying that there goes some scum bag weirdo who should be banned from the earth. Give us all a break and try to realize that only a very small minority both here and in the real world are the ones who may, or may not, cause problems for you and us when we go out dressed as we want in public.

Believe me, the sky is not falling. Oh, and please keep dressing the way you want, because I for one do like your style for you. I would like to try some softer but edgy look like that one day.

Regarding the fetish side of dressing, the others have provided a lot of good comments on that.

[KellyJameson]

Can sex be "bad" if it is not harming anyone? We often judge an act bad or good based on the context that it happens under, thinking that we perceive the whole truth but rarely are we in a position to know the whole truth as observers and often the participants themselves do not know all of their motives ( feelings,emotionals , ect..)

If we use deception to seduce another and the reasons for the seduction hide ulterior motives does this than make sex "bad"? My thinking is that it is not the sex that is bad but the lack of respect for another because of the deception, (violence to anothers mind).

For myself sex makes me uneasy not because of the sex but because of the destructive potential behind the act but so do guns, alcohol, cars,religion,drugs, politics,ect.... The human problem is how our behavior affects everything outside of ourselves including our own mind/bodies because no man/woman is an island and much of this behavior is built on a foundation of fear and fear often destroys the good in response to the bad. Anything can be used as a tool but life has value and tools are objects and when the value of a tool exceeds the value of life than life is sacrificed.

For myself I am not a sexual being because my natural energy runs contrary to my bodies sexuality so creates conflict in its expression and I feel internal disharmony and always have, I lack the animal instinct for sex and aggression. This has allowed me to stand apart from a very powerful force and watch its expression among my fellow human beings and my concern is always because of the harm I see done.

I have watched people die from STD's, met countless woman who have been sexually abused by family members and watched the inter-generational cycle of teen pregnancy and poverty.

The problem is not sex,sensuality, fetish but how our behavior affects others. I fear the consequences of human passions because often these passions destroy innocent life, particularly children who than grow up to continue the cycle of destruction against life and the planet by reenacting the trauma and confusion of their childhood.

We control people through punishment (criticism, intimidation,isolation,confinement, ect..)instead of helping them to learn how to manage the passions of their appetites, the opposite of love.

The one constant I always feel like a vibration when I'm among people is their fear of each other and where there is fear there is control. People do not control themselves as much as they seek to control others and often the acts they condemn they do in the privacy of their own homes because their behavior does not make them afraid, only when they witness it done by others and than they use twisted logic to condemn the other persons behavior while they justify their behavior. To be a fearful person is to be a hypocrite, fear traps the mind in ignorance of self and this is where hate resides.

[Badtranny]

To be a fearful person is to be a hypocrite, fear traps the mind in ignorance of self and this is where hate resides.

omg that is F'ng brilliant.

[KaTanya]

Pythos, how does this ring different from any other social circle you've been in? Whatever common interests we have, we're bound to have differences of opinions, some of them intense and personal. Some of tehm downright stupid. (a shouting match over elves vs. dwarves got our D&D group kicked out of the library for 6 months... Yeah, stupid.) (Ever tell a Slayer fan that Slayer sucks? Got in a few fights over that.) (etc, etc, etc, ad nauseum...)

as a last resort, there is an "Ignore"button for any particular members being negative towards you.

[carhill2mn]

Thank you Renie for your very good reply re: a GWs view. Unfortunately, there are many perfectly good words which some people think of in a bad way. With a spectrum as wide as the "T" world, there will always be differences of opinion. This is good unless someone becomes abusive towards someone who is different from them. One would expect that people like "us"
would be among the most tolerant but, unfortunately, that is not always the case.

There are a few CDs/T-girls who are dismissive of "closet only" dressers. The same is true of those who believe that a spouse must be told. Usually, there are extenuating circumstances that need to be considered. Personally, I belive that you can dress anyway that you want to in your own home. However, if you go out in public, then there are other things to be considered because, in a way, you are representing an entire group of people to many people who are not well informed.

It is very normal for each of us to not really understand what others do or why. But, we can all be courteous to those people.

[Ria]

Well said Pythos... I'm with you and relate to CDing much like you.

One would think that a CROSSDRESSING FORUM would be a enough of a "label" to accuratly describe this group's common interest and motives for crossdressing, but it doesn't at all! So many different things going on here, which is good...

However, It seems to me that this forum includes men who identify as "women" to the degree that they have created a segregation of "Elite CDrs" from the part timers or fetish/semi fetish group of crossdressers.

I little dispointing, the hypocracy is rediculus.

[DonniDarkness]

Pythos,

To put it as simply as i can: The driving reason for all the judgement towards the fetish kids comes down to the pure and simple fact that it challenges other Transgender peoples Egos. "They"; "We", like the rest of society are trying to fit in, the fetish dresser going out on the town has the sole purpose of attracting attention towards them selves. The PVC, Latex, Leather outfits are all made to be seen as vibrant, edgy, and completly out of the ordinary, which is exactly why they(we) wear it....To be seen expressing themselves the way that challenges others views of style and attire. However this style of dressing has deep roots in sexual fantasies and bondage... which again challenges peoples egotistical perception of self. (look it up). We all have a subconcious defense mechanism that is trained by society to motivate us to conform to the world around us.

Simple huh.

The point is there will always be a negative view towards those who are different in any way shape or form. Even from those who are different themselves.....

So Eff em, be yourself and be proud of it.

Challenging life daily,
-Donni-

PS. Melissa Hobbes: Love your new hair, its fab!

[NicoleScott]

As to your question about why fetish CDers are looked down upon, I should think this is only in forums where there are many "identity" crossdressers and transsexuals who are trying to be accepted for who they are and who dislike to be associated with the public's view that crossdressers are fetishistics perverts. We do live in a puritanical society, unfortunately.

Pythos, I think Reine's explanation is right on target, but I would add that it's not just the public's view that crossdressers are fetishistic perverts, but the view of many identity dressers on this forum as well. They're drive to dress is pure, ours (pleasure dressers) is unsavory. While I haven't noticed much overt bashing of fetish dressing, I have taken note of many veiled put-downs. For example, there was a thread "What's your fetish?" Some, those of us with a fetish aspect to our dressing, answered directly as asked. Many others responded with "I don't have any fetishes. I dress because I'm a woman inside." That response adds nothing to the topic of the thread, and serves only to elevate the poster above the rif-raf fetish sexual perverts they think we are, the point they were trying to make without really coming right out with it.
We don't need to get detailed about what we do when we dress, if fetish drives our dressing. I refer to myself as a pleasure dresser, when I think it is appropriate to give such context. Smart people can figure out what that means. But whether that pleasure means sexual, tactile, or emotional isn't important.
There is another reason for the divide. Some fetish dressers dress in a manner that embarrasses those who wish to blend, and since all sorts of transgendered people are lumped together, it doesn't serve their purpose. We are encourarged to go out (it helps our cause) but not like THAT (it hurts our cause).
It seems that the forum is moving from dressing in women's clothes to becoming women. Those of us that identify as men but derive pleasure from wearing women's clothes and makeup aren't very well accepted any more. In My Opinion.

[Lucy_Bella]

It seems that the forum is moving from dressing in women's clothes to becoming women. Those of us that identify as men but derive pleasure from wearing women's clothes and makeup aren't very well accepted any more. In My Opinion.


Agree!!

[Marleena]

Pythos I totally get what you're saying. My signature is the answer.

Who am I to judge others or their motivations? We really do need to stick together even though we are all in different places on the gender spectrum.

[sandra-leigh]

Pythos, I have seen some of the threads and posts that you reference. I must say, however, that they are in the minority and to me, only pop up occasionally here. When they do, there will be a lot of replies that clearly rebut the other's point of view.

Allie, I think you may be referring to the threads about what people wear, including the "people of wal*mart" threads. Those ones do get criticized and closed down in short order; there is a forum rule about them.

There is, however, a number of threads that deal more with why people wear what they do -- and those threads often tend towards very harsh treatment of the possibility of dressing for enjoyment, especially if there is any sexual enjoyment involved. Very harsh.

I am not going to point out specific threads here: the mods and admins have permitted the threads or comments that I am thinking about to remain without intervention, and I don't argue policy decisions (especially not in public.) I find the threads quite upsetting myself, but I also know that I have the choice of refraining from using the system if I do not like the discussions.

[Barbara Ella]

As with all societies or sub sections of them, there will be a gradient of individual thoughts and abilities. I accept this, and let each level have their own prejudices, and try not to let their thoughts affect anything I do if I am outside their level. If I am in their level, I bitch at them. The society that is created here is no different, and for the most part is accepting and supporting. There will always be individuals, so be it. Their thoughts have no impact on what I do, and in my mind they lack the relevant connection to accurately convey their thoughts about what it is I do. So while I cn respect their intellectual level, they are irrelevant to me, and i pigeonhole their detrimental thoughts accordingly. As long as I am not being detrimental to the overall society, they have nothing to complain about, and their comments are relevant only to others in their sub society.

I operate on the premise that they are doing the exact same thing with anything I say, and that is fine with me. i cannot profess to know the intricacies of the different sub societal members that coexist on this forum, other than to really feel that they are all wonderful people going through some things.

Babes