Cd admirers, why are there so many?

[Marleena]

Marleena, I had thought an engagement ring and band might detract people from my SO too. I don't know if it's necessarily true, but they'd still look pretty! Lol

So, I vote yes!

*Sigh* I do like pretty! (sometimes if feel pathetic saying that).lol

[KaTanya]

Interesting discussion. A lot of the dynamics described remind me of the musician-groupie relationship dynamics. Not what I consider a solid foundation for a LTR, but can be fun times for both parties involved as long as both (all) parties are in agreement, although I've read some horror stories about some of the true "creeps" being violent towards TGs after getting what they want (or not getting it...) That's disturbing, but not less so than having them do it to a GG under similar circumstances.

[Melissa Rose]

I'm glad you've posted this, since you're someone who can answer some questions.

I gather you've met men that might be defined as "admirer", meaning they specifically are attracted to CDers, or pre-op TSs, and they weren't the creepy variety (the guys who send pics of their genitals to unsuspecting facebook members.

Exactly. Not all male admirers are creepy, pervy, skeevy and/or scary. I’m also making a distinction between t-girl admirers who are sexually attracted to other t-girls.

Where do you meet these men specifically...?

The two most common meeting places are in a bar, club or similar place, and some form of on-line contact (e.g., chat room, Facebook, Flickr, URNA, etc.). In both cases, my presence is not for the primary purpose of finding someone for a relationship or casual sex, but to socialize, be with friends and enjoy being out. I have met a few admirers through friends, or at a LGBT or transgender specific gathering or event. Only once has a man asked me out (for dinner) in a mainstream location (gas station) who definitely knew I was transgendered (he told me). I have been asked out a few times by other men, but I’m very certain they thought I was a GG since it has only happened when out with one or more of my GG friends. After a while being out in the mainstream, you develop a sense as to whether you’ve been positively read or not. While not perfect, it’s very accurate.

...and what are they after (companionship, sex, or both)?

If the initial contact was at a bar or club where t-girls are known to be, it is almost always about sex whether it is by one of the frequently seen, well-known admirers or unknown admirers. Nearly all show no class or style, and some are quite aggressive often requiring some of the more experienced girls to chase them off of a newer girl. There are exceptions, but they are rare. Only once have I been asked out for a dinner date instead wanting to meet up for immediate sex. IMHO, if you are looking for anything besides hooking up, a bar, club, etc. is not the place to be searching or expecting anything different.

If the initial contact was via some form of on-line connection, the expressed desire crosses the entire range. There is something about chat rooms that bring out the worst behavior (e.g., crude, disgusting) and semi-delusional behavior (e.g., willing to travel across to US for a date or re-locate to be closer without knowing more than a tiny bit about me). There is a lot of fantasy and wishful thinking related to the latter since the internet makes many very brave and/or stupid. If you are in a sex or naughty chat room, obviously, it is all about sex. The nicest guys I have met have been via on-line contact. They see one of my profiles somehow and contact me because they are in the area. A few are local, but a number are in the area on business. The end goal is sex (I'm not that naive), but some want companionship more in the form of someone whose company they enjoy. These are the guys I usually end up going out with. I have never met anyone who was only interested in companionship when they initiated the contact.

Are they looking to be in a relationship with a TG (CD or TS) where the intimacy and good times move beyond the bedroom? Is there an emotional bond with the TG (even if the relationship does not go beyond several months)?

I have met some on-line who were looking for a LTR and a serious partner. I have never gone out with anyone who I knew or suspected was looking for a serious relationship since it is not what I am looking for. Leading them to think there was any possibility by going out with them would be cruel and taking advantage of the situation. Even after explaining I was not interested in a LTR, some say it is OK, but I know they are hoping to change my mind which is not going to happen. Once any kind of emotional bond gets formed, things can get messy since hurt feelings are bound to happen.

Do they exhibit the same dating habits as men who date GGs (dinners in restaurants, evenings that don't necessarily involve sex, introducing her to coworkers and friends, you know ... just being with her because he really enjoys her company and including her in all the other aspects of his life.

I use a “date me like a GG” process as a screening mechanism for anyone I go out with. This often eliminates 90%+ of those who want to “get to know” me. I make it clear that the first date is a short coffee date or something similar. It is always in a public place, and I can escape after a short time if I feel the need or desire. If the vibe is right then there is a second date a week or more afterwards. Dinner and drinks is typical, and it is nothing more which is also made clear beforehand. By the end of the second date, I get a decent sense of whether I want to go out again and take it beyond just going out.

I have several reasons for insisting on this format. Obviously, one is to make it solely not about sex and that it is understood from the beginning. Another is to weed out all those who are willing, or say they are willing, to travel a substantial distance from assuming there is a guarantee of sex. It is quite effective, and I do not blame them for balking at it. It also eliminates the ones who want to keep everything discreet for whatever reason. I want to go out with someone who is confident enough in themselves to be seen in public with me. Most importantly, but a bit idealistic, is I want to go out with someone who also sees me as a person and not only as a t-girl they are physically attracted to. There is more to me than my physical format, clothes, hair and makeup. I’m totally out in the mainstream and very comfortable with it, and I hope they are too. I’m sensitive to the fear of being seen with a transgendered date so I’m willing to go to places that minimize the possibility of discovery by someone they know. If they want me to meet their friends or interact with others they know, I’m fine with it. This has never happened with me except meeting a few of his friends for a drink or two while we were out.

To directly answer the original question, no, very few admirers exhibit the same dating habits as men who date GGs. The ones that do are usually the ones I’m most interested or attracted to. This means I do not date a lot. They are out there, you have to look in the right places, and be selective and patient. It is really not a whole lot different than dating in the traditional heterosexual world.

Do these admirers also date GGs, in other words, is it a feminine person they fall in love with regardless of anatomy?

From my experiences, all of the men have dated GGs or been married. I suspect some may be married, but I have to accept their word that they are not. My BS detector is usually pretty good, but it is not perfect. One question I always ask during the coffee date is “Why are you interested or attracted to t-girls?” Most give the standard reply of “Women are not feminine enough or care about their appearance anymore” or “Women have too much drama or are too high maintenance”. If taken at face value then it is the feminine person they are attracted to and not the anatomy. My instincts and gut tell me it is something different in most cases. A few have replied with what I feel it the most honest answer which is “I’m just attracted to t-girls”. IMHO, I feel the first set of answers is a cover or rationalization for the later reply. It also skirts around the issue of being gay, bi or whatever in addition to side stepping the unPC desire of wanting women to be soft, sweet, demure, etc, (i.e., traditional, old-school definition of feminine behavior). Part of the reason I feel this way is there are plenty of GGs who are feminine and take pride in their appearance, and are not drama queens. Another part is the behavior or desires of some when alone with me.

Whether the various types of admirers have issues with relating to GGs or previous bad experiences would be speculation on my part. It is not the nicest thing to say, but true based on my observations and experiences, nearly every admirer hanging out at the bars looking for sexual hook ups, are physically unattractive and have glaring personality deficits. Whether repeated failures or frustrations with GGs is what drives them to go after t-girls would also be speculation.

Do you know of any admirers who've been with a pre-op TS who eventually had SRS, and did the relationship last after the surgery?

I have heard of a few, but do not personally know anyone where this has happened.

And last, how many of these admirers are married to women who do not know what they are up to, and would this explain their inability to have anything other than a sexual relationship with a TG?

IMHO, the ones who cannot “host” or need to be very discreet are either married, in a relationship or ashamed if anyone they cared about knew they were hooking up with a t-girl. Unfortunately, parts of society would label these men as creepy or pervs for wanting to be with a transgendered person regardless of how attractive or passable they were. Then there are the ones that are just interested in the sex regardless of their relationship status or social stigma issues.


If the CD/TS/TG specific issues are stripped away, many of the issues are similar to those GGs experience in their dating or relationship lives. I have a few good GG friends, and we complain about many of the same things when it comes to men and dating. Some of the dynamics and details differ, but the core issues are essentially the same with a few unique ones on each side.

I apologize for the long response. I hope it provides some answers to your questions.

[ReineD]

I apologize for the long response. I hope it provides some answers to your questions.

It does, thank you. And without quoting your response point by point, I do have some comments.

First, I want to clarify. I do not believe that admirers are necessarily all creepy or pervs. They certainly aren't to the CDs and TSs who go out with them. My point was that their attraction to TGs seems fetish based, if their attraction is fueled by the fact that the TG is a feminine-presenting male who still has a penis, and the goal is to have sex. I do want to differentiate between the men who do fit into this category (my definition of "admirers" for the purpose of this discussion), and anyone else who might be attracted to a person who also happens to be a TG. Also, based on many of the threads I've read in this forum, it is difficult for most members who are out and proud to find long term relationships with gay men and straight GGs, and even more difficult with straight men (by this I mean the men who are normally attracted to GGs), unless a TS happens to be stealth (at which point the question of whether the prospective suitor is an admirer is moot, since he doesn't even know that the TS is a TS). I'm not sure what percentage of men who do not crossdress are bi, who would most likely be attracted to someone based on who they are rather than their anatomy, but if I am to believe the various studies I've read, it is less than 5%. We can start a different thread with links to the various studies.

My other observations:

If you've been asked out by straight males who didn't know you are TG (either from a bar or online) and they are looking for a long-term relationship, I go back to the point I made above that we can't say they are "admirers" since they have no clue about your anatomy (assuming you haven't had SRS). In other words, they aren't attracted to your penis since they don't know you have one. So these men fall outside of our discussion.

You do confirm that the admirers who hang out in tranny bars are after sex. I'm assuming their reason for being in a tranny vs. a mainstream bar is to find partners who have penises. You also confirm that the men who know that CDing is involved, in chat rooms, bring out their worst behaviors. You also confirm that your nicer online contacts outside of chatrooms (who see your profile in which you say you are TG), are also after sex, even if they are willing to take you out on a date first. You also confirm they do not introduce you to their coworkers and their friends, nor is the relationship the same as it would be should they be dating a GG.

You confirm they have reasons for preferring a TG over a GG (GGs are not feminine enough (lol), or they are too high maintenance), which means these men do fit the profile of men who are specifically attracted to a person who presents like a GG but has a penis. BTW, like you, I don't buy the notion that GGs aren't as feminine as TGs. Some GGs place their focus on other life priorities than looks, this is true, but there are still plenty of feminine GGs around, especially if they are in the market for men and they dress up to go to clubs in order to meet them. You should see the local college girls in my town, in the local clubs on a Saturday night. Wow! At any rate, once you cut through your prospects' rationalization, you do confirm they are after TGs specifically and they give you the impression they may have issues with GGs for various reasons.

Honestly, I don't think that you are describing admirers any differently than I did.

[Misti]

Good or bad experiences?

Marleena, there are far too many "personal variables" for me to make an educated guess here? However, I will say that I have been an admirer of the feminine form factor all my post-pubic life.

An example: I was lambasted by my first wife often, repeatedly and derisively for oogling the opposite sex, and I had to oft times reply, nicely, of course, to her that, "I reserve the right to enjoy beauty in its finest form until the day I die!"

And so it is to this very day, "Ditto!" However, two (2) things are very dfferent now: 1) My SO doesn't object, and 2) I'm doing it as a "new CD." My point is that I just have never known what is beneath the skirt, and don't care, anyway - however, presently it's primarily and simply because of a couple of those aforementioned "personal variables" alluded to above - I couldn't do anything overt about it anyway, Plus or Minus, AC/DC, CD/TG or STRAIGHT - Reasons being: ED plus a large number of the nerves in my vertabrae were severed by RF Nerve Ablation last week.
P.S. I'm doing great, thank you all very much. Now, back to my girl watching...
L&R,

M.

[Acastina]

I put up an online dating profile a while ago exclusively using photos of me dressed up and have chatted with a number of "admirers" at length (admittedly I've never actually met any of them, I think I'm too shy for online dating in general.) I've found basically four categories of men who contact me.

Category one / scary people: The creepiest are the ones I call the fetishists, who seem to be absolutely fixated on the idea of sex with a man dressed up as a woman. They almost always try to pry for inappropriate or immodest pictures and immediately try to turn the conversation lewd. They genuinely scare me. I don't understand what motivates them and kind of hope that I never do.

Category twos are guys who identify themselves as straight, but if you talk to them for a while usually seem to be bi-curious and feel more comfortable approaching someone who they see as "in-between" sexes. I think they want to explore their sexuality but have internalized the social stigma that's been unfairly applied to same-sex relationships and think of it as being attracted to a someone who's "sort-of" a woman. They're usually pretty polite but overly self-conscious.

Category three are guys who are open to their attraction to other men and who genuinely find me attractive. They usually identify as bi. They're almost always very nice in conversation, usually very non-judgemental and understanding. Sometimes they're curious about crossdressing and ask about why I do it, their reasons for thinking about starting or even suggestions on how to start.

Lastly, there are other crossdressers and MTF transsexuals. Usually they're just happy to find someone they can talk to openly and honestly. I love talking to them and have gotten most of my make-up tips that way.

I vote for Category Three; runner-up, Four; honorable mention, Two. One is why we hide behind pseudonyms and firewalls. I think this is a pretty comprehensive, perceptive summary. Thanks.

[Melissa Rose]

Reine,

Getting a firm grip on words and their definitions sometimes can be like trying to hold Jello in your hands by squeezing. Admirers is more like an umbrella term that covers a lot of territory, but is often used with a more negative connotation that conjures up thoughts of pervy and creepy. We are on page 5 of this thread and still trying to achieve clarification or consistency of meaning. While I dislike the term "tranny chaser" (mainly because I really dislike the term tranny and less so for the phrase's negative connotation), IMHO it better fits those individuals who are more fetish based and with desires primarily or exclusively sexually driven. The difference is like saying "big game hunter" versus "animal lover". LOL. Regardless, whatever term is used or created, there will always be various definitions and disagreements. Squeezing Jello. I agree anyone who is attracted to a person and does not know they are transgendered is not an admirer. They are attracted to the person whether it is their appearance or personality. They may change their mind if or when they find out, but it does not change their initial attraction or motive.

My perception and experience is the number of men who are attracted to t-girls and would act on it (i.e., it is more than only a fantasy) is a low percentage of the overall male population. Subtract those who want to keep it completely discreet due to social and personal pressures and the number gets lower.* Those looking for either non-sleath casual dating or a LTR relationship is a small number. There are bisexuals, but that tends to refer more to sexual behavior and appetite and less about a partner preference. Most seem to have a biological sex partner preference, but enjoy sexual relationships with both. There is a subtle, but significant difference from those who are totally about the person and their biological sex does not matter. I suspect that is a rare person.

*Which makes my potential dating pool small. LOL but :-(


If anyone is wondering why I'm sometimes in a t-girl bar where the admirers congregate, it is because some of my t-girl friends are only comfortable in what they perceive to be CD/TG friendly places. It is also amusing to play spot the admirer and guess who they may approach or if they only orbit and watch.

[Acastina]

Melissa (Message # 106), great discussion. A lot to think about in there, a lot of perspective, a lot of good advice. Thanks. See you on the 11th?

[ReineD]

Admirers is more like an umbrella term that covers a lot of territory, but is often used with a more negative connotation that conjures up thoughts of pervy and creepy.
...

*Which makes my potential dating pool small.

I'm once again guilty of skimming through some of the posts here, and I thank Acastina for quoting Judith96's analysis of the various men who are interested in TGs. I also agree these are good descriptions. Paradoxically, I'd like to add that Category Threes and perhaps even Category Twos (but at a less advanced stage) mesh with Alice Novik's theory that in most every man who is interested in TGs, beats the heart of a potential CDer (who also potentially fantasizes about being with a man).

That said, I've spoken to members who have TG profiles on social and dating sites and I've also read posts about this here. These members do confirm that unfortunately there seem to be an inordinate number of Category Ones, which would indeed make your potential dating pool small. I've also seen Category One admirers operate in tranny bars. These are the people I refer to, when I use the term "admirers", even though we know there are other men who do not behave like that but as you say, they are few.

When having general discussions, I tend to refer to majority trends based on personal observation and on accounts from other members, rather than dwell on the exceptions.

No matter how we look at it, the idea that a straight male who is not a potential CD, is attracted to a TG because he sees her as a woman (which brings us back to the OP), seems to be fairly rare.