Women should...

[Ayame]

I don't see anything wrong with women not doing makeup or their eyebrows or being slightly overweight. The logic some cross dressers use is the same logic people use to say men shouldn't do anything feminine. By implying a woman should wear makeup and do their eyebrows, they're implying that men shouldn't. If a woman is a more masculine woman or just doesn't care, more power to her. If you're looking for a partner that prioritizes beauty, aim to go on a date with them, but don't bash those that don't. Just because someone isn't your cup of tea, doesn't mean they're doing something wrong!

So to those cross dressers that bash women, stop it!

[terrianncd]

I agree with you....however I see so many girls that with just a little makeup or a pair of cute shoes or? They could go from bland to way cute with just the smallest effort that I just do not understand. Why be bland when one could be cute?
Oh and I hate to girls wearing only flip flops as their shoe of choice for everything. I know I will get beat on for this statement, but I wish flip flops had never been invented. Just ugly I think.

[Shananigans]

Wait, Ayame...this just makes WAY too much sense. It seems like respect for independent styles of dressing should go without saying on this forum.

But, some people are nuts...some people have no respect for others (even though they demand it for themselves)...and, some people will always find something to grind GGs about because resentment is easier to deal with than jealousy.

My SO said you could use the same kind of logic on CDs "If you only had a little bit of facial hair, a little less makeup...WOW...you'd look so good as a guy!!" Hehehe

P.S. Miss ya in the Young Adult section, but I am glad that you have braved venturing out.

[Stephanie47]

Just tune into the Kathy Lee/Hoda segment of the Today Show today (Friday) and watch the 'Ambush Makeover' segment. It is one thing to take a break from being immaculate in presentation and totally avoiding personal grooming. As to weight, I see overweight women tastefully attired and groomed. Sometimes an overweight person is uninformed as to proper food choices. Sometimes the eating habits are intended to be self destructive. I see obese persons in line at fast food restaurants or the check out line at a grocery store with a handful of sodas, candy bars, donuts and other foods totally devoid of nutritional value and loaded with calories.

And, my comments are directed also to MEN. There is no reason for men to let themselves go either. Once I saw a makeover segment on Oprah where men were ambushed at an home improvement store and given new stylish casual clothing, shaved, haircuts, etc. The women went wild over the guys.

As a cross dresser I want to look as well groomed as possible, whether en femme or en homme. Like I've said before, elsewhere, I've seen many attractive women looking sexy and well groomed in work boots, jeans and flannel shirts.

[Katie83]

I agree completely with Stephanie. I think that everyone should take some pride in their appearance, male, female, cd, it doesn't matter.
The state some people are happy to be seen in public in is terrible. A little effort in appearance doesn't have to take long or cost much money.
I always want to be clean and presentable when i go out in drag or drab.

Katie

[Ava Tryptyk]

For men and women I think the most important thing is to look healthy and presentable. Girls don't need to wear makeup or do their eyebrows if they don't want to, and it's fine to be a little overweight. As I mentioned in the other thread, the girlfriend that I got along with the most didn't wear makeup or do her eyebrows or anything like that, and I didn't think any less of her - it made me appreciate her natural beauty more.

[Miranda-E]

Its easy to be critical of real people's looks when you spend your life building your own trophy wife in the basement.

[jaglover]

I think that everyone should take some pride in their appearance, male, female, cd, it doesn't matter.
The state some people are happy to be seen in public in is terrible.
Katie

You're absolutely right and you make me feel guilty. I know that one of the effects of my depression at being stuck in the closet is the way I've let myself go over the past 5 or so years - eating badly, drinking too much, not caring enough about my (drab) appearance etc. I decided as of January 1 that it was time to do something about that and I've made a start.

[Barbara Ella]

Everyone comes in different flavors. I see no need to bash anyone for just liking their particular flavor. While some flavors may be more appealing to some individuals, all the flavors are worth tasting and appreciating. And it is no one's business what the reason some of us may stop after just a little effort, or go all out. We all try to be the best we can, but we must as individuals accept the level we are happy with. And if someone is happy with themselves, that is enough for me. I want happy people. I am here to have fun.

Babes

[Vanessa5]

About the only thing I can say is I don't want to end up on People of Walmart. I am not going to forget my pants or skirt and really not going to wear something that leaves nothing to the imagination but this is just me. People do all sorts of things and it is not my place to judge. I am a people watcher and enjoy all aspects of diversity that may come. Some things are my cup of tea and some aren't.

One other thing is I find that the size 0 or smaller don't seem to look all that healthy to me just like on the other end of the spectrum.

[Shananigans]

I think it's funny that people equate women who don't wear makeup and don't wax their eyebrows as "looking terrible". It's kind of a double standard.

Maybe the same GGs would turn to you and say that men who do this look awful? They probably would.

Brooke Shields used to be a natural beauty of her time. She had the most unruly eyebrows I have ever seen...and, she could look beautiful in a burlap sack. Maybe that's why she was a super model and was cast in a roles where she wore leaves and crazy sh*t the entire movie.

http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp...6lfjo1_500.jpg

Yeaaaaah...she sure looks terrible. Terribly hot.

As for weight... This can be a touchy issue. "Slightly overweight" isn't much room for 99% of people to talk, unless you eat healthy as a horse and work out every day. I'm going to bet that most people who have been critical in their replies do not do this.

You also DO need to realize that there are other cultures and backgrounds that may be very different from your own. I have quite a few female friends that cannot do much to their physical appearance for religious reasons. Oddly enough, most of these women are extremely beautiful. It almost makes me feel goofy when I am standing next to them in red lipstick, false lashes, and some crazy hairdo.

I didn't think I would have to say this on a CDing site...but, there ARE people out there with values that are very different from your own. They may hold a different view on what is "attractive" that is not determined by the amount of makeup that is on one's face.

I'd much rather hang out with a girl that gave two sh*ts about makeup and waxing eyebrows than egotistical pricks that can only see beauty one way.

Nothing is uglier than a piss poor personality, IMO.

When b*tchy people in middle school made fun of my clothing style and the way I wore my hair...my mom told me one thing, "You can always change your hair and your clothes...but, ugly is bone deep." I think this works on a surface level and on a personality level.

http://www.shamelessmag.com/media/co...7/that-guy.jpg

[Brittany CD]

I like women better without their makeup on and I don't have a problem with a girl having a couple pounds on her.

[Acastina]

I don't see anything wrong with women not doing makeup or their eyebrows or being slightly overweight. The logic some cross dressers use is the same logic people use to say men shouldn't do anything feminine. By implying a woman should wear makeup and do their eyebrows, they're implying that men shouldn't. If a woman is a more masculine woman or just doesn't care, more power to her. If you're looking for a partner that prioritizes beauty, aim to go on a date with them, but don't bash those that don't. Just because someone isn't your cup of tea, doesn't mean they're doing something wrong!

So to those cross dressers that bash women, stop it!

I think there is a bit of confusion in the arguments or 'discussions' on this subject because people are coming at it from different angles and thinking they are having the same discussion. ... CDs are like frustrated musicians with a battered old guitar they are doing the best to get a tune out of, and they see someone who not only has the most amazing instrument but they treat it like s**t and don't even polish it.

I think it's a stretch to call it bashing. Scarlet nailed it: CDs do have a hard time seeing GGs who have all those natural advantages and full societal license to do as much or as little as they choose for "beauty" but don't take advantage of it as the CDs would. Because it's important to us, we somehow feel it should be important to them.

There is also the resentment that GG's have that relatively complete freedom to butch it up or femme it up, while we are expected to butch it up and be done and happy with it. My sister is waaaaaaaay more butch than I will ever be, yet I love her unconditionally as the person she is. She knows all about me and reciprocates that love.

I don't think it's so much bashing as a sad sigh....

[Asche]

CDs do have a hard time seeing GGs who have all those natural advantages and full societal license to do as much or as little as they choose for "beauty" but don't take advantage of it as the CDs would. Because it's important to us, we somehow feel it should be important to them.

And, because they're male, (M2F) CD's don't know about the cr*p many GFs have to put up with when they don't do enough for "beauty." Or even when they do.

There's also the aspect -- seldom appreciated by GMs -- that GFs have it impressed upon them over and over again that, as far as society at large is concerned, the only value they have is their value as eye candy (or lust objects) for GMs. For GMs, "beauty" is something they can take or leave, and unless they are male models or Chippendale's dancers, it has little to do with their worth in society. For GFs, it is mixed up with their value as human beings. The nearest thing I can think of for GMs is career (high-powered lawyer vs. day laborer.)

So when men (and that includes M2F CDs) complain about how women aren't doing enough to enhance their "beauty," as they do in this forum about once a week, they are contributing to the chorus that says to women -- all women -- it doesn't matter what you've accomplished or what you're capable of, the only thing that matters is how good you look (according to stereotypical GMs' standards.)

[STACY B]

WAIT a min ,,, I say leave em alone ,, Hell if it wasn"t for none of them who the hell would be here to make me look good ??? An trust me I need all the help I can get An who would be on SPRINGER ?

[docrobbysherry]

I like what I like, whether U like that or NOT!

I don't date women I don't find attractive in some way or another! I don't stare at overweight, sloppily dressed, and poorly presented GGs.
If U like them, hey! Good for u!

I have ALWAYS preferred shapely, feminine women. Who obviously cared how they present!

Do I present as a neat, well dressed male? Usually, NOT! But then again, I'm NOT attracted to men no matter how the heck they present!

So, WHY do I present Sherry the way I do? Dressed to the 9's? Because THOSE R THE LOOKS I FIND ATTRACTIVE! Duh!

U don't like Sherry's looks? I don't care! Just like most of the sloppy presenting GGs out there! Neither of us is trying to attract U!

[RenneB]

I agree to not bash any carbon based life form on this rock.... I mean, at this stage in my life, I'm not in any position to judge anyone else.... Okay, 'cept at the mart store and y'all've heard that one before. Come on people, get dressed when you go shopping.... and sweat pants aren't for shoppin.... I don't care if you're GG or GM, dress up people and live a little.

Okay, before I trip off my soap box, I'm gettin down now...

Renne.....

[Billie Jean]

I agree with Ayame that we should not worry about how anyone presents themself. After all I want to express myself the way I want without criticism. I hope this thread doesn't become the pissing match my thread about going out with a beard in a dress did so try to be civil ladies. I will try to behave also. Billie Jean

[Shananigans]

I was a b*tch in the check out line to a woman and her husband wearing basically pajamas to the store. I hatefully said to my friend that people seem to roll out of bed these days. The woman knew I was passive aggressively commenting on their outfits and she said, "We recently started working again after being laid off for months. The clothes I own are the ones for work that I have to wash almost daily to rewear the next day...and then these *points to self*."

I didn't say another f*cking word. Then, I turned on the news and saw the unemployment rate in my city.

For some people, beauty is the last thing on their mind.

Next time you go to Walmart on your high horse, think about it.

I occasionally get on my high horse still, but living in the real world introduced me to a whole new set of issues and problems.

My mom just had a whole speech with me about compassion and nurturing born in women. I think it's true. And, I don't think it's a coincidence that people are going through very hard times right now and their looks show it. Especially women tend to have that nature of compassion and nurturance for family that surpasses your superficial terms of what is feminity. Sacrificing for family may be more important. As CDs that are focused more in the material realm of what is feminine, I hope you have someone set you straight in the check out line as I did.

It was a needed wake-up call for me.

[PretzelGirl]

Thank you for that story Shannon. I also have been one that never understood the pajamas anywhere outside of the house. You just gave me another perspective....

[~Joanne~]

This is a very interesting thread. It's a damn if you do, damned if you don't sort of beast. While I understand that we should not be judgmental of others and that everyone has the right to live as they see fit, I also believe that there's a time and place mentality that is way overlooked today.

I also hate flip flops. they were originally made for quick shoes for pools, the beach, and other water related places. not for everyday wear, weddings, and funerals. Today these are accepted as formal wear? please.....It's a clear cut sign that you are a lazy person. Yes, it's ok to wear them during the summer and doing parks and such but weddings? Some events demand proper attire. I don't know how many GG's I know that have NEVER owned, let alone worn, a pair of hose.

The make up is not as important as personal hygiene is and a lot of people in general are very lacking in this area. Now as being in the closet, when I go out into the world in drab, I make sure my clothes are clean and presentable even if it is a T shirt and jeans. I have no problem with ANYONE wearing what it is that they feel comfortable in but it should be clean, pet hair free, and in good shape.

I understand a lot of people are down on their luck but most are not that bad off that they have to look like a complete slob. Male or female. If they are, maybe the money they spend for "a good time, getting rich quick, or other vices" should be spent else where. While I hate walmart clothing, it is relatively cheap and one can look decent and presentable for a small amount of money whether it is a T shirt or whatnot.

I do not bash anyone for their choices in life But I don't make excuses for the lazy people either.

This is, of coarse, just my opinion.

Joanne

[Kate Simmons]

The point is we can learn a lot from women as to being people if we pay attention.

[Shananigans]

Why are people caring so much about what other people are doing in their lives?

Just wear what you want and mind your own.

Obviously, some of the women you are describing are wearing what they want and getting sh*t for it. On the other hand, you're afraid to go out as a male in a dress for the sh*t people will give you. Freaking go for it.

Everyone's clothing style is different. There are quite a few examples of clothing on this forum that I would consider very trashy. Do I sit and say that CDs are completely incapable of dressing themselves without looking like trash? No. Not everyone likes vintage apparel...not everyone thinks Cache is the bomb. I do. I might think you look like you shop at the dollar store, but I mind my own damn business.

I wonder when people stopped doing that. Besides, if you look better than these people you are describing, isn't that a Good thing? I like to be the best dressed in the room.

So, go out there and wear what you want. Deal with all the bullish*t hateful comments like eveyone else does. When one person tells you that you look trashy or like you walked out of an 80s video, you'll learn no one likes an a$$hole. If everyone minded their own business, we could all wear what we want.

[Acastina]

I was a b*tch in the check out line to a woman and her husband wearing basically pajamas to the store. I hatefully said to my friend that people seem to roll out of bed these days. The woman knew I was passive aggressively commenting on their outfits and she said, "We recently started working again after being laid off for months. The clothes I own are the ones for work that I have to wash almost daily to rewear the next day...and then these *points to self*."

There's a whole Internet genre called "Walmartians" featuring photos of Wal-Mart customers in, er, compromised attire. Good, smarmy fun.

But seriously, thrift shops are dirt cheap...

[Shananigans]

There's a whole Internet genre called "Walmartians" featuring photos of Wal-Mart customers in, er, compromised attire. Good, smarmy fun.

But seriously, thrift shops are dirt cheap...

It's awesome when people poke fun at each other.

I guess we could start a site called SillyCrossdresser and dedicate to crossdressers that look a hot mess and make fashion flops. We could start with some people posting in the picture sections!

Oh, wait...thats hateful.