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Thread: Gender Binary?

  1. #51
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    I speak to the OP: Gender Binary?

    And to these questions;

    1 Is gender binary?
    2 Do we limit people in their self-identity when we (or doctors/therapists) say that they need to pick a gender (or present as one or the other)?
    3 Is the idea of blending the genders something that is attractive to you, or something that is foreign?

    The argument that most have elected to use here to answer these questions is flawed by nature. The author could have used Wikipedia’s information of Gender. It is good and complete within the context of what is considered the norm of today’s society.

    I would like to offer an analogy to explain what most opposing persons are saying to illustrate this view point. The Model T was available to purchase by the general public in 1927 from Henry Ford. It was available in multiple colors as long as you wanted black.

    Suppose for a moment:
    Fast forward to the 21 Century and in the United States of America the government set policy that only one motor-vehicle company could do business in the country and that company would be Ford Motors. Clearly, this is a Black and White scenario, in that you could either have a car or not legally. All documentation in Congress, the public Library, school and the lowly nightstands in Motels could only refer to a car in this way so obviously it would mean you are speaking of Ford Motors. No need to explain yourself and if you where talking about Chevy or Dodge well sorry you just don’t know what you are talking about. Further, if you where driving one of ‘those’ other cars well you are just an immature college type person that hopefully someday will grow up and drive a Ford. This is the structure of this discussion and argument which is fine. Sadly however, it is also used by people that have bought a Chevy or Dodge and had a lot of body work done so that their car looks like a Ford just to be normal. Life is not linear, may the ‘farce’ be with you.

  2. #52
    Gold Member Marleena's Avatar
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    This discussion is making my head spin. Liz I strive to look the way I feel I should look, like a woman (me). So I guess it's binary?
    Last edited by Marleena; 02-24-2012 at 04:21 PM. Reason: Replied to wrong poster

  3. #53
    Junior Member dsmth's Avatar
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    The whole gender binary thing is still very much with most people judging from the how-to-parent books that are out there... If you have a boy then this is what you should do to raise them... If you have a girl then this is how to should raise them... This is from an article I read in today's "Globe and Mail" newspaper's "Life" section. The article's author was criticizing this but it shows how far the general population is from understanding the whole fluidity of internal gender (that is... if it is fluid based on the differing of opinions in the above posts). Here is a link to the article: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/...ontent=2348167

  4. #54
    Senior Member charlie's Avatar
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    I believe that all of here are transgendered to some degree. Some more, some less. Gender for us is anything but binary.
    Charlie

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by *Vanessa* View Post
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    I would like to offer an analogy to explain what most opposing persons are saying to illustrate this view point. The Model T was available to purchase by the general public in 1927 from Henry Ford. It was available in multiple colors as long as you wanted black.

    Suppose for a moment:
    Fast forward to the 21 Century and in the United States of America the government set policy that only one motor-vehicle company could do business in the ...
    Let's try a competing auto analogy, one that fits the scenario better:

    There are many manufacturers competing for auto sales for use on the gender highway, but exactly two are popular and completely dominate the market - call them Maserati (M) and Ferrari (F). They almost split the market 50/50, in fact. Oh, a few people drive one when they would really prefer the other, but have made peace with their compromises and are basically OK with their choice. An even smaller number would REALLY rather have the other model, but plain old familiarity, inertia, and even risk aversion (I don't know HOW to drive one of those!) being what they are, they have a hard time switching brands. Some do and, much to everyone's surprise, never look back. No buyer's regret at all, which also applies to most owners, even those who never considered switching.

    "But there ARE other brands", you say?

    Well, yes, but those models are so ... odd, that few indeed want to drive one, certainly not on the GENDER highway, not even those considering a switch from Maserati or Ferrari.

    "But," you protest, "surely this is due to Maserati's and Ferrari's sales pressure and incentives - THAT'S what keeps them from considering the marginal brands."

    Well no, it happens that most people just don't want, say, a Ford or Chevy, not even the major brand switchers.

    "Maybe it's the fault of Karren the highway engineer, then, the speeds, lanes configurations, even the signage are BIASED toward Maserati and Ferrari?", you offer hopefully.

    Well, no again, turns out the highway was pretty much designed by consensus of the users, and while that means that Maseratis and Ferraris actually do run faster and better on the highway, you can't put it down to bias per se.

    "How about we just run some Toyotas and Yugos on the highway - people will get used to seeing them and start to like them. Maybe they'll want to buy one!"

    Turns out that's a workable idea, and one out of every 10-20,000 drivers or so actually winds up driving one of the less-common brands. The Maserati and Ferrari drivers, however, just blow right on by for the most part. They tolerate the odd Buick, but in truth they still think of them as an irritant. A couple of people that were considering switching from Maserati or Ferrari now have a Land Rover, but most of them just still switched to the other major brand.

    Very little sales literature can be found for the now in-use, but rare off-brands because there's so little interest. No-one talks much about them because there's no real reason to. They don't get reviewed much in the press except on the news of the odd pages. You can find a specialty mechanic for those brands, but you really have to look hard. You incur some risk driving one of the off-brands, too. They really aren't as efficient on the gender highway after all. AAA won't tow them. Cops like to stop them. Everyone stares and points fingers when you drive by. The law changed to keep people from running you off the road, but just seeing one of the off-brands drive by is such an alien occurence that the outsider treatment at some level never stops.


    And nothing fundamentally changes.

    Lea
    Last edited by LeaP; 02-24-2012 at 05:13 PM. Reason: spelling

  6. #56
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    Thanks Lea... glad I could stimulate thought for a moment. "Better?", different for sure as you stated. I wish we could all choose, even wrongly would do.

  7. #57
    Senior Member Krististeph's Avatar
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    I was giving a ride to an ex-co-worker, right wing quasi-catholic, but not outspoken- generally decent guy, but no balls, so to speak. He got into a monolog about how men are men and women are women... that's the way God made it, yada yada yada. So I asked him about when babies are born with both male and female reproductive organs. He was astonished, this actually happens? Told him to ask his wife- an RN- thousands of babies are born like this every year here in the US.

    Narrow minds are broad targets.

    I like a lot of "man tailored" feminine attire- blouses- suits. Very few things sexier than a good looking lady dressed in a suit that looks a little like a man's but is cut just a little different- she's got the body, the attitude, and the guts to pull the look off Easily as sexy as something uber-feminine.

    -kristi aka "Binary is for RAM, analog range + outliers is for psychological sciences"

    ;-)
    Last edited by ReineD; 02-25-2012 at 12:30 AM. Reason: Please use the Edit button for adding an extra thought, if no one has posted after you. Multiposting is not allowed here.

  8. #58
    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lea Paine View Post
    They don't get reviewed much in the press except on the news of the odd pages.
    ... except when one of them breaks down or runs out of gas, and then the newstands are splattered with headlines about how inferior they are.

    Great analogy, Lea.
    Reine

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    [QUOTE=Kaitlyn Michele;2763083]............................................and it will always be that way, just like with every species
    its not days gone by at all...its not something brutally imposed on us, its just the natural order...


    Careful with that one Kaitlyn. We have species in our oceans today that can reproduce by themselves. No male or female interaction occurs for reproduction. Evolution could do the same for the human species, we just do not know for sure, but we cannot limit ourselves by the unknown based on what we know. We must considder what we don't know.

  10. #60
    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    Good point, jilleane..never say never, or always...heh..my bad!

    i'll take back the word always...how bout if i said for the next 10,000 years?? heh

    Those species had some evolutionary reason to be that way

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele View Post
    Good point, jilleane..never say never, or always...heh..my bad!

    i'll take back the word always...how bout if i said for the next 10,000 years?? heh

    Those species had some evolutionary reason to be that way
    Yeah... nothing is going to change in our lifetime... lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by lizbendalin View Post
    More and more ...[people] are defining themselves as gender queer and presenting in a blend of masculine and feminine.
    I know someone who calls herself "genderqueer." She's a high-schooler and has not discussed it with me, but her father says that she doesn't identify as female because "she doesn't like pink," which I interpret to mean that she doesn't like the roles that Society forces girls into. Assuming the father isn't completely misinterpreting his daughter, her attitude makes loads of sense to me. I feel pretty much the same way about masculinity (don't get me started!), I just don't feel like using the "genderqueer" label for myself. Maybe if I were 40 years younger, I would.


    Quote Originally Posted by lizbendalin View Post
    Do we limit people in their self-identity when we (or doctors/therapists) say that they need to pick a gender (or present as one or the other)?
    Definitely.

    For doctors or therapists or others responsible for helping people to do this is not just limiting. It's IM-not-at-all-HO an abuse of power and privilege. It's an example of putting the comfort and convenience of Society ahead of the needs of their patients. Whatever happened to the "do no harm" part of the Hippocratic Oath?

    Quote Originally Posted by lizbendalin View Post
    Is the idea of blending the genders something that is attractive to you, or something that is foreign?
    Gender itself is a bit foreign to me. I feel about Western ideas of gender the way many Westerners feel about the body-modification practices of some African peoples: they seem to be happy with it, but I'm damned if I understand why.
    Last edited by Asche; 02-25-2012 at 10:11 PM.

  13. #63
    Junior Member Linda Daniels's Avatar
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    This is a serious topic and I don't want to slight it's meaning, however, sad it truly is...I feel that , well..."It is simply the luck of the draw"...which has been kinda a lifetime curse. A long time ago things were different than they appear now so maybe things are easier at this time. We all have to make our peace in whatever way we can. Gender fluidity is a compromise that I have made.

  14. #64
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    it's that ol' chromosome thing

    [QUOTE=jillleanne;2763977]
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele View Post
    ............................................and it will always be that way, just like with every species
    its not days gone by at all...its not something brutally imposed on us, its just the natural order...


    Careful with that one Kaitlyn. We have species in our oceans today that can reproduce by themselves. N[SIZE="4"]o male or female interaction occurs for reproduction. Evolution could do the same for the human species,[/SIZE] we just do not know for sure, but we cannot limit ourselves by the unknown based on what we know. We must considder what we don't know.
    this just in from the NYTIMES

    Men, or at least male biologists, have long been alarmed that their tiny Y chromosome, once the same size as its buxom partner, the X, will continue to wither away until it simply vanishes. The male sex would then become extinct, they fear, leaving women to invent some virgin-birth method of reproduction and propagate a sexless species.

    The fear is not without serious basis: The Y and X chromosomes once shared some 800 genes in common, but now, after shedding genes furiously, the Y carries just 19 of its ancestral genes, as well as the male-determining gene that is its raison d’être. So much DNA has been lost that the chromosome is a fraction of its original size.

    if you are interested in reading the rest of the article:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/23/sc...me&ref=science

    ps with age, everything gets to be just a fraction of its original size!

  15. #65
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    "more and more people are complaining and fighting against the idea that you are either male or female".

    Gender is probably binary for 300 million people or so and whether 20-30 people in a small group think otherwise, may not really matter to anyone but them, and might just be considered a "tempestette in a teacup". It is not to marginalize the small group--they can call themselves anything they want to, and join any organization that supports their own view of themselves. What seems to be of importance is that the idea arises out of a need to rationalize and name what it is we do-or how we see ourselves-- in view of the attitudes of the greater population, who, by the way, will never accept (except hypocritically for the most part) that there are people who are different from the general run of population: e.g. crossdressers, homosexuals, drag queens and kings, prostitutes, you name it..

    As long as religion makes headway in determining how people "should be", no real discussion is likely to take place that has any lasting meaning. Much of the world is STILL HOMOPHOBIC despite allowances for marriage and other things social. This is not to say that in some ways we should all not try to influence the society at large, but it is clearly an uphill battle. Many here say that "labels" are for cans--I don't happen to believe that necessarily--but nobody forces anyone to claim any gender accept the forms you fill out for services provided by various parties who want that information like employers. We can all just say, I YAM WHAT I YAM. period, end of sentence.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by lizbendalin
    I'm just curious as to what your views are: Is gender binary? Do we limit people in their self-identity when we (or doctors/therapists) say that they need to pick a gender (or present as one or the other)? Is the idea of blending the genders something that is attractive to you, or something that is foreign?
    [SIZE="2"]“Picking a gender” is a ridiculous notion, IMHO. The genders are very close together, yet everyone you’ll meet throughout your life tends to think in terms of the “two,” and steps are undertaken to create, and then widen, a yawning chasm between them. This has many dire consequences, especially for those who are aware of this inherent “closeness” I mentioned…

    The idea of blending the genders is not only “attractive” to me; it is also a fact, or, more specifically, an accomplishment. Both genders share the same emotions and feelings, so it is only natural (and intelligent) to allow such integration, or, as I call it, gender incorporation. Others may find this idea to be beyond the pale, but I think some form of tacit appreciation is somewhat inevitable – it takes a lot of wasted energy to keep the genders binary, or apart…
    [/SIZE]

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by busker View Post
    The fear is not without serious basis: The Y and X chromosomes once shared some 800 genes in common, but now, after shedding genes furiously, the Y carries just 19 of its ancestral genes, as well as the male-determining gene that is its raison d’être. So much DNA has been lost that the chromosome is a fraction of its original size.
    Busker, did you read the rest of the article?
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/23/sc...me&ref=science

    The Y chromosome shed genes so as to avoid the risk of incompatibility with duplicate genes found on the X. It retained only the genes necessary for male determination and the Y chromosome became stable 29 million years ago (it has not changed since).

    Quote Originally Posted by NYT article
    The Whitehead team’s new report provides solid assurance by showing that the Y’s shedding of genes is not a continuing process. Almost all of its genetic self-sacrifice occurred in the distant past.

    This insight was gained by decoding the Y chromosome of rhesus monkeys, which shared a common ancestor with humans at the time, and retain 20 ancestral genes, meaning those that have a counterpart gene on the X. Only one of these genes has been lost in humans at some time in the last 25 million years, showing that the Y chromosome became essentially stabilized long ago.

    “It’s my sincere hope that this article might put the notion of the disappearing Y chromosome to rest,” Dr. Page said. He and his colleagues have reconstructed the entire history of the Y chromosome, showing that its no-swap zone expanded in five stages, of which the first began 320 million years ago and the last ended 29 million years ago.
    Reine

  18. #68
    What is normal anyway? Rianna Humble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by busker View Post
    "more and more people are complaining and fighting against the idea that you are either male or female".

    Gender is probably binary for 300 million people or so
    Actually, I think that you will find that far more than a mere 4% of the population have no problem regarding gender as a binary - if it were only the 300 million of which you speak, I don't think your quote would be at all relevant (why would you worry what only 1 in 25 of the world's population thinks).

    To try to come back to the OP's questions, I agree with those who have tried to make a difference between gender expression, gender identity and "physical gender".

    Julie has pointed out that even in that last category, there is an in-between state where people are born with some of the characteristics of both physical genders, but she also notes that for most of those IS folk, their gender identity is binary.

    As an MtF TS, I am amongst those who were born with one physical gender but have an opposite gender identity. For a long time, I tried to conform my gender expression to my physical gender rather than to my gender identity, but that became impossible. I now allow my gender expression to reflect my gender identity and am progressing towards aligning my physical gender to those two.

    There are others I have come across who genuinely seem to have more than one gender identity and who regard themselves as bi-gender fitting their gender expression to whichever of their gender identities dominates at a given time.

    I do believe that doctors / religious people / therapists who say that someone whose identity is between the two extremes should confine their expression to one or the other extreme may be doing more harm than they realise.

    I do not find the idea of blending the genders to be an attractive prospect for myself, but I have no problem with someone who wishes to blend their gender expressions whatever their physical gender or gender identification.

    I believe that the later question about someone who identifies as male but wears heels and make-up is really just a question of fashion. The norm has changed so often (even in my lifetime) that these should not be seen as defining characteristics. Showing my age for a while, Mick Jagger was recently performing at the White House in the USA. In the past he has worn both heels and make-up but no-one ever thought he was genderqueer.
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    It's hard to strip intellect from the rhetoric at times if we can not see the other side of an argument.

    From a scientific perspective:

    The fact that there are a, precious, few humans that are intersexed proves life is not binary. To then apply theories to one side of the argument or the other is futile if the other person doesn't believe that theory floats, for what ever reason. The dark side to this is that there are far too many people on this planet that take their lives (kill themselves) because they can't find a way to exist in a binary world.

    OP: I think a Gender Binary is in error. I also think that how the questions where issued and supported are flawed in that they are only asked from one perspective, which my last analogy was eluding to. [SIZE="1"]NOTE TO READER: This is not a slam towards the author of the OP on my part, but an opinion towards the group that is being represented.[/SIZE]

    Question:
    Is it healthy to choose one gender over another to live a healthy life in today's society? YES
    Do I agree with the need to choose? NO
    Do I think there is only two polar opposites, being female and male (mental, physical, spiritual)? NO
    Last edited by *Vanessa*; 02-26-2012 at 01:33 PM.

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