My Wife Avoids Talk of CD'ing

[LeeAnnRose]

I see a couple of very important points here. Your wife didn't shut you down even knowing some of what you do. My hot button is the kids. All you decisions are no longer just yours or you and your wife's. With children involved this becomes much more complicated. You have a number of desires in your cross dressing quest, some of which are topics which are quite uncomfortable for you wife. 9 years seems like a long time, but even so your actual number of conversations may make it like a new topic, even now. Take you time and understand, your wife may just not be ready. Work with her to find common ground. Continue to approach things slowly so it does not take a bad turn.

[Katesback]

Someone said I was angry and or upset. What is amayzing about this post is the great number of threads from those of you that are overlooking the wishes of someone and continueing to try to come to a resolution that meets your hopes. I am sorry guys/girls but I think your ignorring the fact that the wife in this instance has been quiet clear about her intentions. Just like myself. I could read 1000s of pages of crossdresser stuff. That will not change my mind. I dont want anything to do with it from my man! Thats MY (and the wifes choice) and by continueing to prod her will just continue to disrespect her wishes and rights.

Back to what I said before. The poster has to make a decision. If he is unhappy its time to consider moving on or living within the confines of the wife. I have to say shes is probably more lienient that I would be. Personally if I was dating a guy and he dropped the crossdresser bomb on me I would very likely pack my bags and move on. Call me cynical but I know all to well that what starts out as panties tends to escalate all the way to transition and sexual reasignment surgery sometimes. I am wise enough to know that a surprising number of people that call themselves crossdressers are really TS but have yet to decide to take the plunge.

As I said if I date a man I want a man 100% of the time. Simple as that. If you come to some sort of view that this makes me angry or upset then I am sorry for you. Really I am because nothing could be further from the truth. I am mearly excersizing my rights, just like the wife from the original post.

I see a couple of very important points here. Your wife didn't shut you down even knowing some of what you do. My hot button is the kids. All you decisions are no longer just yours or you and your wife's. With children involved this becomes much more complicated. You have a number of desires in your cross dressing quest, some of which are topics which are quite uncomfortable for you wife. 9 years seems like a long time, but even so your actual number of conversations may make it like a new topic, even now. Take you time and understand, your wife may just not be ready. Work with her to find common ground. Continue to approach things slowly so it does not take a bad turn.

[Stephanie47]

I don't think Katie is off point. You're 32 and your wife has known of your cross dressing for nine years. It appears she may have silently stated her boundaries. i.e., she does not approve and she does not want to discuss it. Frankly, cross dressing is somewhat out of the customary behavior of the male in a marriage. Marriage involves some give and take and endless negotiations- some are serious and some are petty. Some are deal breakers. I'm in a DADT relationship. My wife does not want to discuss the issue of my cross dressing, and, I have made no further efforts to 'persuade' her to be 'educated.' She is a professional and intelligent and she can and may have self educated herself on cross dressing. My last effort to explain myself did not go well. I suspect she did not want to be 'pushed' to understand a behavior I cannot explain or understand myself.

I had to do some 'google' searches to get a grasp on when my wife became cold to cross dressing. I remembered she was uncomfortable watching "Tootsie" at the movies when it came out. That was 1982. Same uneasiness with 'Mrs. Doubtfire" (1993). If I could not figure out over three plus decades that she does not want to be a part of it, then why should I press the issue.

I can fully understand you may wish to hang out in the house en femme. But, to what extent do you wish to infringe on the silent boundaries your wife has established. Sometimes in a marriage, you just take the obvious hint. It seems you want to spread your horizons. You have a wife and children to consider. At 32 your children have to be young. Are you ready to have them feel the consequences of spreading your wings? The same with your wife's feelings.

I weighed the rewards and risks of increasing my cross dressing 'adventures.' I think boundaries have to be established in a marriage and respected. Pushing the envelope does not always work out. I really think your wife has silently given you her answer. I know my wife has indicated by silent actions what her boundaries are.

[Sheila]

Kate I am sorry, but you cannot and I mean you cannot say what you would do in any situation until you find yourself in it, and even you yourself have said " if you were dating & he dropped the cd bomb you would MOST LIKELY move on" ..... firstly they were/are not dating, they are married, 2 ndly there are children involved in this marriage, not quite so easy to walk away from a marriage and kids especially if you love them, for some, & u may well be 1 it maybe that easy, but not for the majority.

There is something called compromise in all relationships whether they are spelled out at the start e.g barring any major disaster "I" will play netball/hockey /go fishing/play darts every WED, or some things become a compromise over time in a relationship . one wants to watch a Documentary on Mondays the other wants to watch a comedy on Tuesdays, they don't all get discussed to the death before they become written in stone in a relationship !!!!

As far as I understand the situation, the wife knows wants no part in the cding at this time, apparently does not want/know how to discuss it, perhaps she feels she backed herself into a corner in the beginning and just does not know how to reverse that stance ......... it is not always a full road to TS with cding ...... for some and a small majority that is where the journey leads, more will explore the possibility but continue to reside in both modes ........ perhaps that is why the wife is scared because she reads "ALL" CDERS are TS, but we know this is far from the truth, however many will spread scare stories, either because of ignorance or because it suits their personal agenda

Perhaps the original poster could enlighten us as to how he has tried to approach discussing CDing with his wife

[Eryn]

Someone said I was angry and or upset. What is amayzing about this post is the great number of threads from those of you that are overlooking the wishes of someone and continueing to try to come to a resolution that meets your hopes. I am sorry guys/girls but I think your ignorring the fact that the wife in this instance has been quiet clear about her intentions. Just like myself. I could read 1000s of pages of crossdresser stuff. That will not change my mind. I dont want anything to do with it from my man! Thats MY (and the wifes choice) and by continueing to prod her will just continue to disrespect her wishes and rights.

Back to what I said before. The poster has to make a decision. If he is unhappy its time to consider moving on or living within the confines of the wife...

Kate, what you overlook is that not everyone has your "my way or the highway" attitude. Some people are reasonable and realize that "it's not all about me." They are mature enough to come to compromises that address the needs of both even if it means giving up some personal advantage. A marriage with this sort of flexibility will weather the storms of life, be they CDing, illness, or any other challenge.

"Lines in the sand" denote a dictatorship, not a marriage, and such an unbending relationship is likely to break the first time it is stressed by CDing or other challenges of life. I'm very glad that I avoided relationships with people who think in that way.

[Katesback]

But I can tell you what I would very likely do. And that is I would call it a day.

I never said that all CDs are TS. What I said is many are. What is VERY much the case is that CDing tends to escalate from panties to more and more and more. You can read the countless posts just on this site about how CDs yearn for more. Be it going outside the house into the world, to having the wife involved in the activities, to sex. I can tell you that if you go to Southern Comfort and pay close attention there are a group of men (tranny chasers) that attend the conference. These men are VERY busy and if you watch you will notice a lot of CDs doing things with these guys. I suppose it is an escalation to be as much of a woman as they possibly can, even to the point of having sex.

Most women probably arent aware of this escalation effect and many get blind sided as time goes by (read the posts here about acceptance and then after escalation rejection). I on the other hand am aware of the escalation. That my dear is something I want nothing to do with so yes I can say that I would pack my bags and run.

Just to be clear here I never said all CDs are this way but when it comes to escalation (especially when they percieve they have gathered some sort of acceptance) nearly all are.

Katie

Kate I am sorry, but you cannot and I mean you cannot say what you would do in any situation until you find yourself in it, and even you yourself have said " if you were dating & he dropped the cd bomb you would MOST LIKELY move on" ..... firstly they were/are not dating, they are married, 2 ndly there are children involved in this marriage, not quite so easy to walk away from a marriage and kids especially if you love them, for some, & u may well be 1 it maybe that easy, but not for the majority.

There is something called compromise in all relationships whether they are spelled out at the start e.g barring any major disaster "I" will play netball/hockey /go fishing/play darts every WED, or some things become a compromise over time in a relationship . one wants to watch a Documentary on Mondays the other wants to watch a comedy on Tuesdays, they don't all get discussed to the death before they become written in stone in a relationship !!!!

As far as I understand the situation, the wife knows wants no part in the cding at this time, apparently does not want/know how to discuss it, perhaps she feels she backed herself into a corner in the beginning and just does not know how to reverse that stance ......... it is not always a full road to TS with cding ...... for some and a small majority that is where the journey leads, more will explore the possibility but continue to reside in both modes ........ perhaps that is why the wife is scared because she reads "ALL" CDERS are TS, but we know this is far from the truth, however many will spread scare stories, either because of ignorance or because it suits their personal agenda

Perhaps the original poster could enlighten us as to how he has tried to approach discussing CDing with his wife

[Katesback]

Dear I dont believe the my way or the highway attitude is so much a factor here. What a lot of you dont seem to get is the wife HAS choosen her point of view. After nine years shes has remained the same. There is no reason to believe she will change her mind. So back to what I said earlier. The crossdresser has to choose to either live within the confines of the wives expectations or decide to do her own thing. I think the most responsible thing would be to make a decision and live with it. On the other hand of someone chooses to live within the confines of someone elses expectations and is miserable......... well I have NO sympathy for them.

Finally before you throw out kids and all I point out to you that countless TS women have gone through transition and the kids survived. Nearly all of the marriages failed but hey thats to be expected. The reward is the TS got to be the person she always knew she was.

Katie

Kate, what you overlook is that not everyone has your "my way or the highway" attitude. Some people are reasonable and realize that "it's not all about me." They are mature enough to come to compromises that address the needs of both even if it means giving up some personal advantage. A marriage with this sort of flexibility will weather the storms of life, be they CDing, illness, or any other challenge.

"Lines in the sand" denote a dictatorship, not a marriage, and such an unbending relationship is likely to break the first time it is stressed by CDing or other challenges of life. I'm very glad that I avoided relationships with people who think in that way.

[Eryn]

Just to be clear here I never said all CDs are this way but when it comes to escalation (especially when they percieve they have gathered some sort of acceptance) nearly all are.

It's a mighty big stretch to equate a desire to "escalate" dressing beyond panties to having a desire for sex with men or to make a full transition. That's the impression you're trying to make despite your disclaimer. Painting every CDer with your personal brush isn't at all reasonable or realistic.

The great majority of CDers are perfectly happy being heterosexual males who happen to have an appreciation for things feminine. This has been borne out by multiple studies.

Dear I dont believe the my way or the highway attitude is so much a factor here. What a lot of you dont seem to get is the wife HAS choosen her point of view. After nine years shes has remained the same. There is no reason to believe she will change her mind.

That depends entirely upon the weight placed upon the topic when it is discussed. If it has increased in importance for Renae and she makes this clear it is quite possible that her wife's attitude won't be as unbending as yours.

There are several topics that my wife doesn't *like* to discuss, but if I were to say "not discussing this topic is hurting me" she would agree to discuss them. I would do the same for her. Those are the compromises that keep marriages going.

[Silentpartner GG SO]

I have to say, I do think Katie has a point here - from what I read here, plus my experience with my own husband, allbeit only a short time, it does appear to me that many CD'ers do escalate - maybe not all the way to sex with a man or transition etc. but in terms of how far they want to dress, how often, going out dressed, body shaving etc. and this does worry me somewhat.

Obviously if the CD isnt married or in a serious relationship then she is free to do whatever she likes with impunity. However, if she is married or in a long term relationship and has come out to her partner - maybe saying "I only dress once a week and I dont want to go out of the house" etc. and the wife is accepting - at that level it doesnt seem to be long before she is then pushing to another level, maybe underdressing daily, or painting toenails, shaving body hair etc.

This to my mind is rather selfish - the wife has been accommodating, compromising and accepting - but thats not enough - boundaries very quickly seem to be pushed.

The OP said that it started with panties, and the wife silently turned a blind eye, maybe because she felt she could cope with that, she probably didnt like it, but for the sake of the marriage and the kids, she said nothing and hoped she could push it to the back of her mind. However then the clothing started arriving home, the wig, got left around for the wife to see - albeit with the intention that she didnt want to hide things from the wife, it was going to be perceived as pushing the boundaries.

Even in my own relationship as I said in another thread, I accepted the CD'ing, was ok with seeing my husband in a dress, wig, make up, heels etc. but pretty soon that wasnt enough, he then started shaving his legs, more clothing was bought in secret, hidden from me - WHY? why couldnt he be happy that I was accepting and be satisfied with what he had - why push for more? I guess its human nature - the more you get the more you want

this is what a lot of wives are afraid of and in many instances, rightly so.

[whowhatwhen]

It's definitely unfair that he was not up front, but her ignoring it isn't going to make his CD desire disappear.

Just as it wasn't fair for him to hide is CDing from her, it's not fair for her to ask him to keep it completely repressed.
That **** messes you up mentally and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

They have to talk, otherwise you'll just have to move on.
You said she's ultra conservative, is her fear religious based homophobia?

Good luck my friend!

[Katesback]

I give you a lot of credit girl. As I said earlier I dont have the patience to deal with it. The sad thing is that your husband is what he is. He cannot change it and any agreement you and he makes really is not fair to either of you and both can be seen as selfish. Conversily speaking you are totally entitled to your right to accept it or not.

See thats the problem with being with a CD. You are imposing your expectations on someone to act in a way that they are not. At the same time you have every right to do so. Its really sad when I look at it because I have seen soo many relationships fail over time. The escalation almost always does not stop and as I said earlier its really not fair to impose your point of view upon someone else.

By the way the clothes thing. I crack up because I have met crossdressers with 10 times the clothes I own and I am a girl. I mean they dont generally wear them but a tiny portion of thier lives and to add to it they often own clothing that is totally unacceptable for thier age or ability to blend in. They dont understand like you do that you have to grow up to know how and when to wear heels and/or short skirts. LOL

Back to what I was saying eariler. I give you a lot of credit. You have more patience than I do. If you ever need to vent just get ahold of me. I am all ears.

I have to say, I do think Katie has a point here - from what I read here, plus my experience with my own husband, allbeit only a short time, it does appear to me that many CD'ers do escalate - maybe not all the way to sex with a man or transition etc. but in terms of how far they want to dress, how often, going out dressed, body shaving etc. and this does worry me somewhat.

Obviously if the CD isnt married or in a serious relationship then she is free to do whatever she likes with impunity. However, if she is married or in a long term relationship and has come out to her partner - maybe saying "I only dress once a week and I dont want to go out of the house" etc. and the wife is accepting - at that level it doesnt seem to be long before she is then pushing to another level, maybe underdressing daily, or painting toenails, shaving body hair etc.

This to my mind is rather selfish - the wife has been accommodating, compromising and accepting - but thats not enough - boundaries very quickly seem to be pushed.

The OP said that it started with panties, and the wife silently turned a blind eye, maybe because she felt she could cope with that, she probably didnt like it, but for the sake of the marriage and the kids, she said nothing and hoped she could push it to the back of her mind. However then the clothing started arriving home, the wig, got left around for the wife to see - albeit with the intention that she didnt want to hide things from the wife, it was going to be perceived as pushing the boundaries.

Even in my own relationship as I said in another thread, I accepted the CD'ing, was ok with seeing my husband in a dress, wig, make up, heels etc. but pretty soon that wasnt enough, he then started shaving his legs, more clothing was bought in secret, hidden from me - WHY? why couldnt he be happy that I was accepting and be satisfied with what he had - why push for more? I guess its human nature - the more you get the more you want

this is what a lot of wives are afraid of and in many instances, rightly so.

[Eryn]

more clothing was bought in secret, hidden from me - WHY?

The usual reason for hiding things is because we think that the person we are hiding them from will disapprove of us.

My wife addressed this issue by sharing our shopping. This allows her to keep an eye on things and advise me when I'm about to do something silly.

[Silentpartner GG SO]

Eryn I could understand the feeling of possible disapproval if I didnt know about my OH's CD'ing but I said right when he first came out to me, tell me no lies, dont hide your purchasing please!!!! and he promised there would be no more lies/deceit but he still went on to buy things over the internet and get them sent to other addresses so I didnt find out - that's just plain bad in my book. This is the single thing that could be a dealbreaker for our marriage - and it would seem such a petty thing to anyone not involved but with our history, lies are just not acceptable from my stand point.

Thnks for your reply Katie - I can see exactly what you are getting at - there is no much more to the whole issue than acceptance or not isnt there

[Katesback]

Now your starting to see what the word acceptance means several hidden things. One of them is that many CDs see acceptance as the avenue to escalate thier activites! Also acceptance can be seen as the beginning of the severe days where it escalates from pantyhose and panties to going out into the world dresses as a woman.

You did realize that just in this posting all the responses that talked about continueing to talk to the original posters wife. Some of them are relentless and cannot overlook the fact that the wife is NOT going to change her mind. Actually they do feel that constant pressure will over time crack the concrete wall and open the door for that panties, to out the door dream.

Of course not ALL CDs are like this but I got to say that the countless ones I met ALL and I mean ALL stived to get to go out to the gay bars and shopping.
That seemed to be the holy grail and many became content if they got to that point. The sex and dating men crap I saw at Southern Comfort and surely that was just a percentage of the CDs that were there. Of course like any convention there is sex after the days activities. LOL.

Katie

Eryn I could understand the feeling of possible disapproval if I didnt know about my OH's CD'ing but I said right when he first came out to me, tell me no lies, dont hide your purchasing please!!!! and he promised there would be no more lies/deceit but he still went on to buy things over the internet and get them sent to other addresses so I didnt find out - that's just plain bad in my book. This is the single thing that could be a dealbreaker for our marriage - and it would seem such a petty thing to anyone not involved but with our history, lies are just not acceptable from my stand point.

Thnks for your reply Katie - I can see exactly what you are getting at - there is no much more to the whole issue than acceptance or not isnt there

[Silentpartner GG SO]

I dont get it - what is it with all this shopping crap? I like to think I'm a normal genetic female and I really dont like shopping that much - too crowded, too boring - why on earth do CD'ers have SO many clothes ? it just seems such a waste of money to have so much more than will probably ever get worn regularly? maybe I'm just way too practical....

[whowhatwhen]

Sorry to interrupt the echo chamber, but it's been 9 years.
By closing her eyes and ears and going "LALALALALALA" she now holds just as much fault as him, at least he's trying to talk about it.

Re escalation:
If you don't trust what he says, why are you still with him?

Re shopping:
Some guys like shopping, some girls don't, maybe the guys want to shop but society has pigeonholed them into the "RARRR MASCULINE MANLY MAN DOES NOT NEED TO SHOP!" attitude?

Re gay bars:
I've heard they're just genuinely fun places to be since on average the gay community contains less discriminating s***heels.
Again, if you don't trust that your SO isn't going out for some dick on the side why are you even bothering?

[Di]

My suggestion would be to set up a time when you are alone to talk and explain ...this is a part of you and just try to explain it the best you can. Also remember there are many ways couples work things out from total support to don't tell, do not want to see( setting up times where the cder can dress.
I would not suggest just being your girl/self and try to talk...trust me that will not go well.
Let here know we have a great group of GG's in Fab here that she can talk to.
AND there are alot of posts in Loved Ones that can help you explain.
Be prepared and good luck.

[~Joanne~]

I think that this is excellent advice. Good marriages are exercises in compromise. It is unfairly hurting you to keep this bottled up inside and the resulting stress is harmful to your marriage. Since you aren't discussing it, your spouse has no way of knowing how much mental damage the DADT situation is causing you.



Actually, you do. Regardless of the topic, one party refusing to discuss something that is important to the other party is a serious marital issue. A "line in the sand" is not a sign of a healthy marriage.



One cannot predict the outcome with 100% certainty, but in a situation where both parties were truly invested in making their marriage work the outcome will likely be positive.

If one party doesn't take the marriage seriously, or where other factors (family ties, religion, etc.) get in the way, the outcome is less certain. Each situation has to be evaluated on its own merits and you know your spouse better than we do.

I hope that your situation is resolved for the better. My wife made a considerable effort to try and understand my situation as well as help me to get past my own hangups and understand myself better. For us, the result is a better marriage than we had before.

I wish I had anything to add to this that others haven't already. Most are giving you very sound advice but Eryn hits it right on the head with hers.

[~Joanne~]

Re shopping:
Some guys like shopping, some girls don't, maybe the guys want to shop but society has pigeonholed them into the "RARRR MASCULINE MANLY MAN DOES NOT NEED TO SHOP!" attitude?

That's why everything advertised is aimed at women. Personally, I have always loved shopping regardless of CDing

[Jenna J]

Like my wife keeps reminding me... "Time is a wonderful healer."

[Jenna J]

I give you a lot of credit girl. As I said earlier I dont have the patience to deal with it. The sad thing is that your husband is what he is. He cannot change it and any agreement you and he makes really is not fair to either of you and both can be seen as selfish. Conversily speaking you are totally entitled to your right to accept it or not.

See thats the problem with being with a CD. You are imposing your expectations on someone to act in a way that they are not. At the same time you have every right to do so. Its really sad when I look at it because I have seen soo many relationships fail over time. The escalation almost always does not stop and as I said earlier its really not fair to impose your point of view upon someone else.

By the way the clothes thing. I crack up because I have met crossdressers with 10 times the clothes I own and I am a girl. I mean they dont generally wear them but a tiny portion of thier lives and to add to it they often own clothing that is totally unacceptable for thier age or ability to blend in. They dont understand like you do that you have to grow up to know how and when to wear heels and/or short skirts. LOL

Back to what I was saying eariler. I give you a lot of credit. You have more patience than I do. If you ever need to vent just get ahold of me. I am all ears.

Katesback, I just dont think you understand. What is the crime in dressing in clothes and using make up.....?

[BRANDYJ]

I dont get it - what is it with all this shopping crap? I like to think I'm a normal genetic female and I really dont like shopping that much - too crowded, too boring - why on earth do CD'ers have SO many clothes ? it just seems such a waste of money to have so much more than will probably ever get worn regularly? maybe I'm just way too practical....

Count me among the numbers that does not like to shop Silent. Not in drab or enfem. I'd NEVER shop enfem. I am one who cares what others think, including store SA and other customers. I feel that many people confronted with a CD would feel uncomfortable, and I don't want to make anyone feel uncomfortable, ler alone myself. I agree with you about the waste of money that more then likely, will never be seen by anyone other then my SO. When I do shop it's 98% of the time done on-line. Kate says this thing keep esculating, and to a degree she is right. Years ago I would have never shaved my legs, would never appear in any public place, never tell anyone about my being a CD. Well all the above I have done. And that's a;lll the esculating I'm gonna do! Count me as a more out then "normal CD. To give you a clue about who the "normal CD is, all you have to do is look at the number of MEMBERS on-line vs the number of GUESTS that are viewing this site at any one time. The point is the majority of CD's don't shave their body, don't go out in public, don't shop in fem mode, have not told anyone other then maybe and it's a BIG maybe, their wif eor girlfriend. And guess what? The majority never will. Hell, they are to afraid to even join here so they come and lurk. That's the average or majority of us that call ourselves crossdressers. Kate talks about the CD's she's met. OK, I get that. But the average CD is one she would never meet since they would not be in the public for Kate or anyone else to meet! So I don't think she can speak of any large number of CD's that will esculate to the point of ever wanting to transition. Kate might be spaeaking largly out of her personal experience where she esculated from being a CD to full transition. I'm now 63 and I'd think that I have esculated all I'm going to by now. I just hope her post did not scare some of our GG members thinking that their husband is going to want to take it to the extreme of shopping in fem mode. wanting to have sex with guys, growing breasts and finally full transition. If I had to guess, that number that do that is fewer then 1-2% of all crossdressers.
So please, our beloved GG members that are concerned, don't think what Kate says is the norm. It's far from it. Look, you know your husband and if he can be trusted or not. You have a sense of how masculine he is...or isn't, You have a sense of how much he cares for you, how much he loves you, how much of a liar he has or has not been on other issues. So please don't think the majority or even a high number, are going to esculate to a point that you can not deal with or support him in this thing that for the most part, is so hidden in the closet that most CD's never even tell a soul and are happy keeping it in the bedroom or at home. Sorry Kate, your point is well taken, but in my opinion is far from the normal everyday crossdresser. I wanted to put some of our GG's at ease by sharing my opinion and what I belioeve to be true.

[NicoleScott]

Kate expressed her opinion, the harsh reality of the situation as she saw it. Can we get back to Renae?

[jaglover]

I'd like to make a point about "escalation" - this word that keeps coming up. The implication seems to be that CDers want one thing today but the mere fact of having that thing will make them want something else tomorrow. For a lot of us, it's not like that - instead we always wanted the 'escalated' things, it's just that we didn't admit it at first. This is the danger; we don't tell our SO's that we 'only want to wear panties' (knickers to me) because we actually believe that - we tell them because we think they'll be able to cope with that and we hope that once they are used to it we can 'introduce' them to the next stage.

In an ideal relationship (which I don't have, unfortunately) the big conversation should cover this. Take - er - oh, shaving legs for example. It's self-evident that hairy legs don't look good in sheer tights/stockings. So if you plan to wear these in the future you should admit to yourself and your SO that you'll have to shave your legs at some point, yes?

GG's: some of us aren't 'escalating' - our fault in this is that we're afraid to tell you everything, we want to reassure you that it's "not as bad as all that" and so we under-state it to you. On behalf of myself and CDers like me, I apologise for our cowardice.

[fallapartduck]

I would have to agree with the fact that after 9 years, if she hasnt wanted to talk about it until now, i doubt much would change the wife's mind about talking about it now. I think she has made it clear where she stands. Like it or not, it is what it is.